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pnumoman posted:So the fact that she is second only to Griffith before Guts came along means nothing? That she is quite clearly a highly capable mercenary who has great fighting skills means jack poo poo because Miura happens to note that she's female, and that this fact means Caska is at a disadvantage in a field dominated by men? And let's overlook the entire, complex relationship between Guts and Caska and Griffith, and just paint her as a MacGuffin to be cured, because that's obviously the only thing that Miura was going for there, right? No, I think her status is pretty important. Second in command, competent, cared about everyone else since they were pretty much a family, most if not all of their group looked up to her. She was awesome. And then you look at what Miura did to her. Flora was Schierke's...mentor I guess, right? Her being awesome is good. Especially since she's old. Anything that challenges the trend of only men being allowed to be old and interesting/useful/cool/whatever is a good thing. Schierke being cool is good. I don't remember much of Sonia which is probably a good thing in one way since it means nothing ridiculous happened to her. Just let them keep being cool without having them get raped or have some terrible tragedy befall the group because they just so happen to be women. Most of the series is a blur to me now, but Miura did turn down the rape and stuff pretty drastically compared to when the series started. I don't know if these new characters appeared before or after this shift, I just hope that the series continues to stay this way. To address something you mentioned specifically and others have mentioned as well, quote:I'm really having trouble understanding how you're equating events in the plot with Miura is misogynist. First of all, there is lots of sexual assault/rape, but it's not limited to women. Hell, Guts was raped and Griffith sold himself reluctantly. Secondly, I really struggle to see how you look at Caska in this way: If my concern is the negative portrayal of women, why mention this? If the problem is a tendency for women to be raped, assaulted, or killed for either shock value, character development, or more specifically, character development of the male hero, this isn't all that important. If women are always raped, chopped up and thrown into refrigerators, or thrown under the bus so a man can move the story forward, depicting a man's rape/fridge/bus as character development here does not change the fact that the rape of women is used as character development everywhere, including here. Just want to clarify that I'm not intending to make light of fact that men are raped inside and outside of fiction. Just that if I want to read something where men don't get this treatment, I can throw a dart at a pile of books.
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Jul 9, 2011 00:44
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temple posted:I'm tired of the tough girl idea of feminism. Its okay to have female characters that are weak. I think Farnese is probably a stronger character because she was so weak. There is a great scene in the Troll arc where she has to protect Casca in the midsts of the monsters lair, and even though fear is gripping her heart, she finds the strength because it is clear that Casca cannot help herself. So, really, if Farnese didn't have Casca to protect, what motivations would she have for becoming what she is at this point in the story? It's another very human element, and when despair overwhelms you, some find their inspiration not within, but in other people. Farnese's mother is an excellent character especially with regards to understanding how her daughter is twisted up with Serpico, and that a lot of this has to do with how her father regarded her, or rather disregarded. It isn't as if Miura just writes things like, A) Women are weak, therefore B) Women are oppressed and marginalized, and eventually raped to death.
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Jul 9, 2011 00:58
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Frome posted:If my concern is the negative portrayal of women, why mention this? If the problem is a tendency for women to be raped, assaulted, or killed for either shock value, character development, or more specifically, character development of the male hero, this isn't all that important. If women are always raped, chopped up and thrown into refrigerators, or thrown under the bus so a man can move the story forward, depicting a man's rape/fridge/bus as character development here does not change the fact that the rape of women is used as character development everywhere, including here. You make a good point about perceptions of women as reflected through the overuse of rape as a plot point. What I take umbrage with is your assertion that Miura is a misogynist because rape of females occurred in the manga. The rape in Berserk does not seem like something dropped in simply for shock value, nor is Caska's rape the sole motivator of Guts. Miura, through his work, does not strike me as a misogynist; in fact, as compared to most of his contemporaries in manga, I feel like Moira is refreshingly neutral in terms of any gender bias. Certainly he could have done something like Robert Jordan did with the Wheel of Time series, and deliberately flipped gender norms. But it seems grossly unfair to label him a misogynist just because he chose not to. And he clearly avoids the damsel in distress syndrome that is so widespread.
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Jul 9, 2011 01:35
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pnumoman posted:You make a good point about perceptions of women as reflected through the overuse of rape as a plot point. What I take umbrage with is your assertion that Miura is a misogynist because rape of females occurred in the manga. The rape in Berserk does not seem like something dropped in simply for shock value, nor is Caska's rape the sole motivator of Guts. Miura, through his work, does not strike me as a misogynist; in fact, as compared to most of his contemporaries in manga, I feel like Moira is refreshingly neutral in terms of any gender bias. Certainly he could have done something like Robert Jordan did with the Wheel of Time series, and deliberately flipped gender norms. But it seems grossly unfair to label him a misogynist just because he chose not to. And he clearly avoids the damsel in distress syndrome that is so widespread. I was mainly referring to the portrayals themselves being misogynistic. I mean yeah I did say he hates women and it was probably too hyperbolic or should have been past tense at least, but my concerns were mainly with the choices he made with his portrayals, not the person himself. I know Caska isn't Guts's only motivator, but what he did to her was still frustrating. To me, she was basically transformed from a character into an end-game reward. I don't read too many manga series so I don't know too many contemporaries, but when he's good his portrayal of women is much better than most of the stuff I have read. They get to actually make decisions and do things that drive the plot instead of just being objects poo poo happens to so someone else can move things forward. When he's at his worst though, I cannot stand him. Thankfully this hasn't been awhile. Probably years, drat this thing has been going on forever. I don't think flipping gender roles would have been necessary for berserk or anything though. That mostly involves moving people to the more extreme opposite side of the spectrum in order to draw attention to the absurdity of gender roles. For most things, if you want to put forth positive images you can just make your characters break expectations without going far enough to make it satire.
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Jul 9, 2011 02:44
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So, putting aside all this rape and misogyny, I'm kind of at a loss as to the contents of the first movie. I think that an adaption of the Golden Age arc up through the 100 man battle and Guts and Caska's reconciliation would have made a good place to start, but we've already seen footage of stuff beyond that. Was that stuff just shown out of context to drum up hype, or was it shown because it's going to be in the first movie? Man, this was a lot easier with Ultimate Hellsings's one volume=one "episode" approach.
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Jul 9, 2011 03:17
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OnimaruXLR posted:So, putting aside all this rape and misogyny, I'm kind of at a loss as to the contents of the first movie. I think that an adaption of the Golden Age arc up through the 100 man battle and Guts and Caska's reconciliation would have made a good place to start, but we've already seen footage of stuff beyond that. Was that stuff just shown out of context to drum up hype, or was it shown because it's going to be in the first movie? I would assume that a chunk or all of golden age will be the first movie. They will make zero earth dollars if they start after. The Berserk TV was very poorly received, right? So we have to assume that the movie watching public (who are the people they want to court, not people who they know will see it anyway IE the fans)would be completely put off by starting in the middle. It would be a big misstep, I think. That said, it would be awesome if the first movie also ended on the eclipse and the movie bombed and no more were made, so that both animated adaptations have bad end.
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Jul 10, 2011 02:34
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Oh yeah, Berserk #323. So the movie is called Golden Age Arc 1 Egg of the King. I assume this means there'll be two movies covering the Golden Age, the first climaxing with the showdown between Guts and Griffith we see in all the stills, and the second ending with the Eclipse.
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Jul 10, 2011 03:37
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Yay for new chapter, and the next one is scheduled for the end of this month? How many years has it been since we've gotten this many chapters?
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Jul 10, 2011 05:25
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A lot, a lot of years. Also this action is awesome all around.
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Jul 10, 2011 05:35
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I'm kind of disappointed in myself for not considering that twist. Should have seen it coming.
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Jul 10, 2011 05:57
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Nate RFB posted:I'm kind of disappointed in myself for not considering that twist. Should have seen it coming. It was pretty bloody obvious, given she outright stated her genealogy. I wonder if Guts is going to have to berserk mode to get out of this or not.
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Jul 10, 2011 05:59
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I really hated the long waits between chapters, but goddamn, I cannot fault Miura's artistic talent. The art just gets better, and better, I'm loving the poo poo out of these nautical demons. And I'm also wondering if Guts will have to go into Berserk mode. The situation is increasingly dire, but I wonder if Isma can play a hand in saving them that would spare Guts from having to do that. It would be nice to see Guts get out of this without resorting to that.
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Jul 10, 2011 07:53
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LordMune posted:Oh yeah, Berserk #323. That's fantastic news, I'm glad my predictions on what it's covering were right. 4 volumes is a lot to fit into a movie, but as long as they get the important stuff it's fine. Purists over at SK.net are raging at it not starting with volume 1 and following the manga completely faithfully but personally I believe it'll be better off this way.
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Jul 10, 2011 18:01
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Oh Miura.  
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Jul 10, 2011 18:09
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I was wondering why the latest Berserks were coming fast. Turns out it was so he could draw a naked mermaid loli. Good job, Miura. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 10, 2011 18:14
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Zorak posted:I wonder if Guts is going to have to berserk mode to get out of this or not. I don't think that he should. The thing that he's fighting right now doesn't seem that bad compared to the apostles that he's fought in the past. Edit: Coolio posted:I was wondering why the latest Berserks were coming fast. Turns out it was so he could draw a naked mermaid loli. Good job, Miura. Where did her clothes go, anyway?
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Jul 10, 2011 18:20
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Next plot arc of Berserk: naked mermaid girl joins crew, defeats monsters through the power of song, Guts has to become her manager and turn her into the ultimate naked mermaid idol sensation. When jealous tempers flare between naked mermaid girl and occasionally naked witch girl, with girl joins the fray and also becomes an idol. Berserk sells ten million volumes and for the first time ever Miura cranks out a chapter every single week.Lord_Pigeonbane posted:Where did her clothes go, anyway? As far as I can tell she literally jumped out of them. Coolio fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Jul 10, 2011 |
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Jul 10, 2011 18:21
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Lord_Pigeonbane posted:Where did her clothes go, anyway? She threw them off and jumped into the water.
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Jul 10, 2011 18:26
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Coolio posted:Next plot arc of Berserk: naked mermaid girl joins crew, defeats monsters through the power of song, Guts has to become her manager and turn her into the ultimate naked mermaid idol sensation. When jealous tempers flare between naked mermaid girl and occasionally naked witch girl, with girl joins the fray and also becomes an idol. Berserk sells ten million volumes and for the first time ever Miura cranks out a chapter every single week. So how is mermaid idol supposed to join when she's all fins and needs water?
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Jul 10, 2011 19:26
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I feel it's too early to make assumptions about naked mermaid idol physiology. Give Miura a chance to expand on this dramatic turn of events.
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Jul 10, 2011 19:32
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Ekallo posted:Oh Miura. Is this a real thing? Or was it added by the scanlator?
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Jul 10, 2011 22:54
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ANIME AKBAR posted:Is this a real thing? Or was it added by the scanlator? According to the scanlators it's real. Evil Genius Forums posted:Obviously we had to change the wording a bit for it to make sense in English, but the tone of the message is represented with great accuracy. Miura owns.
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Jul 10, 2011 23:59
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I'm pretty sure it's been well established that the Young Animal guys all use their comments section for jokes and trolls or w/e. A lot of his comments stuff are talking about Rice Cooking Adventures and poo poo.
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Jul 11, 2011 00:03
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OnimaruXLR posted:
Kentaro miura hates eyeballs.
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Jul 11, 2011 00:24
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Illegal Username posted:Eyeballs. Don't forget fantastical creatures.
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Jul 11, 2011 00:27
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And also ears. I'll never forget the sadistic detail that went into portraying a man having his (anatomically correct) inner ear shot out by an arrow going through his head. Somehow.Ekallo posted:According to the scanlators it's real. 
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Jul 11, 2011 00:38
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Rakugoon posted:Don't forget fantastical creatures.
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Jul 11, 2011 00:44
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Rakugoon posted:Don't forget fantastical creatures. So long as the fantastical creatures are just fantastical creatures and not associated with God. Fairies and Mermaids and poo poo are ok and allowed to live. But the second you bring God into the equation and U DEAD. Miura is the angriest atheist basically.
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Jul 11, 2011 00:46
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Ccs posted:Purists over at SK.net are raging at it not starting with volume 1 and following the manga completely faithfully but personally I believe it'll be better off this way. I think there's a good page worth of discussion going on over there about the size of Griffith's cuffs seen in the movie stills in relation to how it looks in the manga. Never mind how good the animation looks so far and the fact that we're finally (hopefully) going to see Berserk get a decent adaptation, their clothes aren't perfect, drat it. Clearly a lack of respect for the source material  Also, apparently another quote from Miura himself: quote:I never imagined I'd receive such a great blessing again: to have the manga animated. The previous animation of Berserk served as a momentum to make it known to people.
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Jul 11, 2011 02:51
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Honestly I am a bit let down it doesn't start with the first arc. Kind of want Guts-being-an-utter-rear end in a top hat action.
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Jul 11, 2011 05:51
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Zorak posted:Honestly I am a bit let down it doesn't start with the first arc. Kind of want Guts-being-an-utter-rear end in a top hat action. I am as well, but also for the tension it adds to the Golden Age arc as it goes on. We know that he ends up as this all-hating murder machine, but around the time of his ordeal with Casca and the 100 man slaughter, it's fascinating to wonder what could possibly happen. We begin to see him really gel with the Hawks as the Raiding Leader, yet to know he ends up as the Black Swordsman before it's all over really kept me interested. That and the morbid curiosity of how he could possibly use a sword that huge.
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Jul 11, 2011 05:58
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I've always kinda felt the first arc was disposable, other than sort of going "SEE ALL THIS? NOW COME LISTEN ABOUT HOW IT GOT THAT WAY." Although it does make the introduction of Puck kind of weird again, because that guy basically becomes the single source of levity throughout protracted stretches of the comic once the flashbacks are over, sooooo... it'll be interesting to see where they bring him in. It might make sense to introduce him along with Godo? It is an elf cave, after all...
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Jul 11, 2011 06:05
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It would be cool to have a little teaser of him as the black swordsman, but doing the baron fight would be over the top. And seeing Griffith as Femto would be a huge spoiler. I honestly wish that in the manga it wasn't revealed that it was Griffith at the beginning. It kind of ruins the shock later on.
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Jul 11, 2011 06:07
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ANIME AKBAR posted:It would be cool to have a little teaser of him as the black swordsman, but doing the baron fight would be over the top. And seeing Griffith as Femto would be a huge spoiler. I honestly wish that in the manga it wasn't revealed that it was Griffith at the beginning. It kind of ruins the shock later on. Personally, I've always felt that wondering what Griffith had done to become so hated by Guts provided a large part of tension of the Golden age arc. The knowledge that no matter how much Guts's life seemed to be improving, it would somehow all be taken away from him made for a great hook.
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Jul 11, 2011 06:23
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ANIME AKBAR posted:It would be cool to have a little teaser of him as the black swordsman, but doing the baron fight would be over the top. And seeing Griffith as Femto would be a huge spoiler. I honestly wish that in the manga it wasn't revealed that it was Griffith at the beginning. It kind of ruins the shock later on. Not everything has to be OH WHAT A TWIST. Twists are not good writing. If a twist is really that surprising, it means it wasn't really foreshadowed, which is bad writing. Honestly, Berserk's set up with the earlier portion where we learn where Guts and Griffith end up works quite well, as the ground it takes to get there is quite bizarre. Our end result is a murderous rear end in a top hat who basically ruins everyone's day, ESPECIALLY Apostles, and a murderous God-Angel who lacks any empathy or sympathy, only power. ... and then we're introduced to their beginning: a young man who knows only battle but is actually very fragile and lonely, and a young men who seeks ambition only to improve people's lives. And then it all falls apart at the crucial moment, orchestrated in the grand tragedy of events. The fact that these events are thematically ordained within the story itself with the specific effect of creating Femto makes the writing all the much better in that regard. It's deliberately poetic internally. People give Miura poo poo about his frequent brakes as of late, but the man can loving draw and write. He's extremely good with narrative pacing.
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Jul 11, 2011 06:24
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Ekallo posted:Oh Miura. I'd never have guessed I'd see a Miura drawn Louise either. Louise and her wavy Griffith hair. It's a brave new world out there, and Miura ain't afraid.
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Jul 11, 2011 06:42
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Zorak posted:Not everything has to be OH WHAT A TWIST. Twists are not good writing. If a twist is really that surprising, it means it wasn't really foreshadowed, which is bad writing. I can't imagine how you came to hold this opinion unless you are some kind of robot who always correctly detects and interprets foreshadowing and has never been wrong once. You can't seriously have never enjoyed being surprised by a story. 
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Jul 11, 2011 08:21
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I can't think of any twists in Beserk. Stuff like foreshadowing and twists get thrown around so much that people don't really recognize it for what it is. The anime market is saturated so I don't see a new Berserk anime really shaking things up too much. Beserk's original anime series came out right at the point when anime was emerging in North America. Before then, anime as a whole was back shelf, hard to find stuff that people called Japanamation. The release of the anime series did stir some interest because it stood head and shoulders above what was available in themes, storytelling, and setting. But at this point, I can't see standing out. Gantz is a pretty big deal in Japan (AFAIK) and its barely a blip on most people's radar because its adult themed (edit: and it came out post the anime explosion so it suffers from the same oversaturation problem I think the new Beserk anime will suffer). Berserk has too much competition outside of established anime/manga fans that are already exposed to everything else. There isn't a better place to start in the story than the Golden era. Everything else is rising or falling action. As much as later arcs have entertained me, its all about healing Caska or killing Griffith due to what was already set up. temple fucked around with this message at 08:58 on Jul 11, 2011 |
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Jul 11, 2011 08:42
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Sindai posted:That's not true at all! A good twist is foreshadowed but then surprises you anyway because the foreshadowing was clever. That's why it's tricky to write good twists. A well written story can surprise you, but OH MY GOSH WHAT A TWIST!!! is not really a good thing. Things you don't predict happening in a story isn't really a twist. When someone is shot in a mystery it's not like WHAT A TWIST SOMEONE POINTED A GUN AT A DUDE AT SHOT HIM HOW SURPRISING. If it ends up the one who shot him was an alien from outer space WHAT A TWIST NEVER SAW THAT COMING [/mnightshamylan] it's rather dumb since it's just a "SURPRISE I with held information and had no real point in doing so!" See, the issue with idiotic twists is that if you know they're coming, the entire build up has almost no point in respect. It's like how people whine about how stories were spoiled for them making them not want to read it. "I know what happens to why would I read a thing??", the argument is. But a well written story, even if it surprises you on occasion, is such that even if you can tell what's going to happen and know where things are going to end up, the quality of the writing makes you keep reading to see exactly how it happens, how it's conveyed.
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Jul 11, 2011 15:52
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Not to mention that the Berserk anime did a terrible job of foreshadowing. Almost all of the supernatural stuff was cut, so when Griffith turned into Femto, I was not thinking about how shocking this turn of events was. I was thinking "Why is this even happening? There was nothing in the previous story that indicated that something like this was going to happen at all." It all felt pretty stupid. By contrast, the first arc in the manga sets the story up by showing you what Griffith was going to become. Equally as important, it showed you what a behilit was, and demonstrated how it worked. Since you already know that using a behilit pretty much requires you to sacrifice all your friends, you get this sinking feeling early on that all those characters you're starting to love will die. And so when it finally does happen, it doesn't come out of nowhere and confuse the gently caress out of you. Sure, it wasn't very surprising, but it was compelling.
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