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zalmoxes posted:Also did I mention there's competitive Aikido. I don't have experience with it, but I know it exists. It's called Shodokan Aikido, and it's basically just doing knife defense with a scoring system, and where there's no penalty for getting the virtual poo poo stabbed out of you. The aggressor just attacks the same way over and over again while the defender tries to do techniques. It's awful.
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Jul 14, 2011 19:21
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Is there a reason why akido can't do full on sparing and then rule it to death to preserve the core concepts like judo? I'm not really that familiar with the art. Is there something inherantly unsafe about the techniques when opponents are fully resisting?
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Jul 14, 2011 19:26
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Office Sheep posted:Is there something inherantly unsafe about the techniques when opponents are fully resisting? If they wanted to spar then they'd actually have to teach how to attack, which they don't. They are actually philosophically opposed to ever attacking.
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Jul 14, 2011 19:30
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Office Sheep posted:Is there a reason why akido can't do full on sparing and then rule it to death to preserve the core concepts like judo? I'm not really that familiar with the art. Is there something inherantly unsafe about the techniques when opponents are fully resisting? The short answer is yes. Sometimes I decide to dick around in practice just to see what will happen and if the person I'm doing that to is one of the good ones it always just ends up in pain for me. It doesn't look pretty with a fully resisting opponent, but it's still effective if you know what you're doing. The longer answer is that aikido is still a relatively young martial art ruled completely top-down by the original students and the founder's family and there is a lot of politics and dogma within the community. The people who control what happens to aikido are very resistant to change and nobody bothered to make the proper arrangements yet. It's also against the "philosophy" of aikido. Nobody ever asks why there are no Iaido competitions, even though it's another modern japanese martial art, yet when aikido comes up, it's always a debate.
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Jul 14, 2011 19:40
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Mechafunkzilla posted:If they wanted to spar then they'd actually have to teach how to attack, which they don't. They are actually philosophically opposed to ever attacking. Yeah but putting aikido aside could you even do something akin to kickboxxing plus wristlocks in the same way thai boxing has the clinch and some other grappling aspects? Lets assume a wristlock is an automatic victory and we can magicly solve the not wairing gloves problem. In my imagination on the rare occasion someone pulls a technique off it wouldn't be safe for uke.
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Jul 14, 2011 19:42
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Office Sheep posted:Yeah but putting aikido aside could you even do something akin to kickboxxing plus wristlocks in the same way thai boxing has the clinch and some other grappling aspects? Lets assume a wristlock is an automatic victory and we can magicly solve the not wairing gloves problem. In my imagination on the rare occasion someone pulls a technique off it wouldn't be safe for uke. Wrist locks are allowed in MMA and people do MMA sparring all the time. It's just that standing wristlocks don't work at higher speeds and resistance against someone who knows what they're doing. Aikido dudes would know this if they actually sparred. Mechafunkzilla fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Jul 14, 2011 |
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Jul 14, 2011 19:45
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What techniques are allowed in Aikido that exclude it from a sport competition? Are we talking eye gouges and ball kicks here?
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Jul 14, 2011 19:49
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niethan posted:What techniques are allowed in Aikido that exclude it from a sport competition? Are we talking eye gouges and ball kicks here? Wrist locks are "too dangerous" 
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Jul 14, 2011 19:52
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I thought grabbing the gloves wasn't allowed in mma. I'm not trying to say it would be useful but i was under the impression that it wasn't practical OR legal.
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Jul 14, 2011 19:54
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Office Sheep posted:I thought grabbing the gloves wasn't allowed in mma. I'm not trying to say it would be useful but i was under the impression that it wasn't practical OR legal. You can't grab the actual fabric of the gloves or anyone's fingers but there's no rule against grabbing hands or wrists.
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Jul 14, 2011 19:57
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niethan posted:What techniques are allowed in Aikido that exclude it from a sport competition? Are we talking eye gouges and ball kicks here? None. I explained a bit a few posts back why it's not a sport. I should also mention the founder was a very good martial artist who happened to join a religious sect and became more and more obsessed with religion and pacifism with time. The philosophical ideas of Ueshiba were passed on to his students and adopted by the post vietnam antiwar crowd who found the idea of a 'pacifist martial art' very appealing. Let's not have a long argument about aikido effectiveness in MMA, because that's not going to get us anywhere. Personally I think aikido is effective, but the type of people who go to fight in MMA are not very likely to have chosen to train in aikido for various reasons. Arguing about the effectiveness of aikido is like arguing about wether Bruce Lee would beat Mike Tyson in a street fight. It's just a pointless discussion. Training aikido is a personal choice some people make, and it's very rarely purely for learning how to fight. I practice it, I like it a lot and I also practice judo and intend to free up some time for boxing but I see/understand how it wouldn't appeal to many people.
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Jul 14, 2011 20:17
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Do you know what sucks. What sucks is when you learn a new leg lock and try to do it in sparring and forget you're actually sparring MMA. So you go for the leg and get punched in the face 
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Jul 14, 2011 20:42
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zalmoxes posted:Bruce Lee would beat Mike Tyson Pro Lee: cross trained speed Pro Tyson: Weight advantage by 60 or 70 lbs Height advantage of 4 inches, probably also similar reach advantage a lot of experience against fully resisting opponents Con Lee: only an actor Con Tyson: only a boxer I believe Tyson would knock Lee silly. Did I miss any important points? niethan fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Jul 14, 2011 |
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Jul 14, 2011 20:55
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niethan posted:I'm going to assume we are talking prime Lee and prime Tyson, right? Dude Bruce Lee could do FINGER PUSHUPS
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Jul 14, 2011 21:04
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Illegal Username posted:Do you know what sucks. See: Arvolski v Cruz Also the core problem with modern Aikido is that Ueshiba didn't take students that weren't already black belts in something, and Ueshiba himself cross trained in a million things before founding his style. Aikido doesn't teach basics because it was assumed you were already competent before walking in the door. That is no longer true these days and it's like throwing a kid in elementary school into a PhD program. That is assuming you take Aikido intending to fight, which is not necessarily the point of Aikido. Ueshiba became very spiritual late in life and changed his art to match his new interest in the mind and spirit. We have good Aikidoka posters here who do it for their own personal benefit and don't give two shits about how many five year olds they can wrist throw in a dark bar's alley. Two of the top martial artists I've ever met were two old ex Judoka who started doing Aikido when they wanted a more relaxing hobby. They had the basic skills of Judo along with all the subtle Aikido movements and concepts, they could shuffle around the room tossing and tripping everyone. Those are the kinds of people that Aikido really fits. Xguard86 fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Jul 14, 2011 |
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Jul 14, 2011 21:04
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Funny judo training the other night - we've had this new guy come in for the last month to the newaza class. He also always shows up with an injury - sprained foot, twisted knee, hand cast...he just looks broken all the time from cross training with us and BJJ. This week was the first judo class he came in without an injury. Our instructor (a brown belt) was showing side mount drills and escapes and the new guy kept interrupting with his point of view. Our instructor decides to use him as an ukemi to show the drill and as soon as they're in position the new guy starts going full speed on him! The dude proceeds to get worked over hard by our instructor and after getting tapped, he takes the rest of the class off and stays in the bathroom for a good hour or so. Only our instructor was kind enough to check on him from time to time asking politely if he was ok and what not. A nice lesson in humility and we all gained some insight into why he's constantly injured all the time (he's nuts). niethan posted:I'm going to assume we are talking prime Lee and prime Tyson, right? I thought it was well known that Bruce Lee was very much into street fighting prior to acting? On the topic of akido, Roy Dean is a black belt in akido and BJJ. As a low ranking judo player I thought this was....interesting, I guess: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SivWAcPlzFg&feature=player_embedded I do like how his school mixes spiritual elements, you can tell he is very much an akidoka. I wish there was a school like that around my area because I would sign up in a heartbeat. As someone who also does TMA, I appreciate zalmoxes posts.  Weebay posted:Hey Bangkero! Your CLF buddy here. Bangkero fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Jul 15, 2011 |
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Jul 15, 2011 01:05
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Bruce Lee learned some grappling from Gene Lebell, remember. I'm not sure how good he was at it, but I can imagine him getting among Tyson's legs somehow and subbing him. Having said that, I can also imagine Tyson effortlessly picking him up and throwing him out a window, or punching his face until it's mush. This is the best argument. We are now on GameFAQs.quote:sure bruce lee was good but could he beat sephiroth??????
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Jul 15, 2011 01:32
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zalmoxes posted:Let's not have a long argument about aikido effectiveness in MMA, because that's not going to get us anywhere. Personally I think aikido is effective, but the type of people who go to fight in MMA are not very likely to have chosen to train in aikido for various reasons. TMA and aikido and all these others who argue about effectiveness always bring this up. Please provide concrete examples of why aikido is not being used in MMA for any other reason than it is not effective. I can't see any. All the rules in MMA seem to allow for aikido style moves, so what gives then?
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Jul 15, 2011 03:03
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swagger like us posted:TMA and aikido and all these others who argue about effectiveness always bring this up. Please provide concrete examples of why aikido is not being used in MMA for any other reason than it is not effective. I can't see any. All the rules in MMA seem to allow for aikido style moves, so what gives then? You misread what I wrote. It's not that I'm saying MMA is somehow restrictive for aikido, it's that someone who is planning on becoming a professional MMA fighter, is not likely to take up aikido as his primary martial art. People who will want to train for MMA competitions won't find aikido a necessity for their success and the ones who go into aikido are often the type who would find judo a little too physically challenging for them. I think it's unfortunate but it's kind of the truth. The philosophy of aikido, the way it's taught and the crowd it attracts goes against competition. In a way it's bad, in a way it's good, but aikido is a packaged deal, and you either accept it the way it is or decide it's not for you. Disclaimer: I'm not an expert. I practice aikido because I really enjoy it, and I accept it's limitations and complement my practice in other martial arts. Certain aspects of aikido frustrate me, but I can't really change that. VVVV I was just being snarky when I wrote that. zalmoxes fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Jul 15, 2011 |
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Jul 15, 2011 03:23
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zalmoxes posted:Nobody ever asks why there are no Iaido competitions, even though it's another modern japanese martial art, yet when aikido comes up, it's always a debate. Uh, there are. But Iaido is just kata - it's not a competitive sport so the tournaments are just judging who has the best form.
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Jul 15, 2011 03:42
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esquilax posted:So I started Judo last week, did some randori yesterday and got thrown every time I tried anything. 1. Yes, your body gets used to it and while you'll still be sore, it'll be muscle soreness, not from taking falls. The quicker you become relaxed and confident in your breakfalls the quicker this will happen. 2. Just tape them up and keep going. The callouses will form quickly enough and only go away if you take a lot of time off. 2. They are out of stock right now, but it looks like Budovideos at least sometimes carries it ( http://www.budovideos.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=25735&cat=295&page=2 )
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Jul 15, 2011 04:02
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Xguard86 posted:Aiki jiu-jitsu is not a thing, you are thinking of Aiki-jitsu which is, basically, the ancestor style of Aikido.
zalmoxes posted:This is kind of true, but it has more to do with the individual then the art. Because there's no sparring, it attracts the middle aged, office worker types who are just looking to say they do something 3 times a week without really pushing themselves. As someone who is making an effort to improve, having to train with people like that is really annoying and after a while you learn to avoid them. Aikido allows you to train as hard as you're able or be a lazy gently caress who spends 10 years practicing and makes no improvement.
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Jul 15, 2011 04:32
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zalmoxes posted:Nobody ever asks why there are no Iaido competitions, even though it's another modern japanese martial art, yet when aikido comes up, it's always a debate. Probably because iaido is a fundamentally solitary art. It's 100% solo kata. On the other hand, aikido actually involves you touching other people and has a semi-combative aspect in randori, so it feels like if there are two participants, they should be able to compete. Additionally, people use swords in iaido. Fake, unsharpenable swords, but swords. I don't think most people look at good iaidoka and think "Gee, I wish I could see him kill someone with sho-hatto in competition!"
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Jul 15, 2011 04:57
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tarepanda posted:Fake, unsharpenable swords, but swords. Most of the people I knew who were serious about iaido actually used lived blades. To be honest I never really saw the point but they could actually kill someone. I've done test cutting on bamboo which was pretty fun, though.
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Jul 15, 2011 11:32
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z0331 posted:Most of the people I knew who were serious about iaido actually used lived blades. To be honest I never really saw the point but they could actually kill someone. You're required to use live steel after 5-dan, IIRC. The whole point is tameshigiri, or live cutting practice. If you're not doing your kata/basics right, you're not going to cut jack. Kendo helps a lot with this because of the way it teaches tenouchi.
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Jul 15, 2011 12:07
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The point of the live blade is kind of like sparring: It makes it real and mistakes have consequences. It just takes a while to reach that point in Iado because you can slice right through your own hand just putting the sword away. Which has happened more than twice.
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Jul 15, 2011 15:34
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You can slice your hand/thumb up nicely with a mogito too.
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Jul 15, 2011 15:58
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I was a lot more excited about the upcoming "Car Jacking" seminar at my Krav Maga school before I realized it was about how to defend against a car jacking. 
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Jul 15, 2011 16:35
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Winkle-Daddy posted:I was a lot more excited about the upcoming "Car Jacking" seminar at my Krav Maga school before I realized it was about how to defend against a car jacking. How do you defend against a car jacking. Don't cars usually get stolen while you're not near the car in the first place?
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Jul 15, 2011 16:45
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zalmoxes posted:How do you defend against a car jacking. Don't cars usually get stolen while you're not near the car in the first place? I dunno, I haven't been to it yet. I assume it has to do with if you're stopped at a light, in a parking lot and starting your car or whatever and someone walks up with a knife/gun and demands the keys to your car. It sounds like fun, but I would gladly give away my piece of poo poo car and collect the insurance money. I would just beg the car jacker to total the poo poo wagon. The above scenarios do happen. It's also not super uncommon for road rage cases to escalate into violence. We had one of those in the Portland area only a few weeks ago. A guy gets pissed at another drive, followed him to his destination then tried to climb into the car and beat the poo poo out of the driver. The driver stabbed the guy and called the cops. As far as I know he wasn't charged as it was pretty clear he was defending himself.
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Jul 15, 2011 16:48
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Geez I'm gone for like a week and there is so much arguing!zalmoxes posted:How do you defend against a car jacking. Don't cars usually get stolen while you're not near the car in the first place? This would probably be a good place to start... Also as far as your discussion on Aikido.... if you're going to make claims, really you should be posting a link to some sources, because a lot of the little things you are saying are wrong. (Not in the sense of that whole MMA/Aikido argument nonsense. The facts/history are what I'm talking about. To be fair most of the people in Aikido don't know the facts/history and say what their teacher said. If one is inclined in looking at the history of Aikido, go to https://www.aikidojournal.com and just pour over Stan Pranin's work. As for my input on the whole Aikido/MMA hurf durf siliness. 1. Post-war Aikido is not about fighting. (However, this does not mean that Aikido schools should get a pass at being martially incompetent. I think any Aikido school should be on par with say a hobbyist muay thai or boxing or bjj gym.) 2. What we know now (2011) and have access to is much much more than what the current crop of most Aikido teaches has in the 70's. 3. Aikido is arms length based grappling which is not geared towards body to body grappling. (Really I'd say the whole heart to Aikido is not the techniques but just being able to get someone off balance upon grabbing them. The techniques are just kind of something you can do.) However most places just teach technique after technique after technique... with no.... substance. 4. As to why Aikido is not in MMA (not bringing effectiveness into this equation) a.) Lack of coaches who want to train someone for MMA using Aikido. b.) Lack of training partners who want to train someone for MMA using Aikido. (There is even a general lack of committed training partners who even just want to do Aikido.) c.) You're going to be reworking so much stuff. Why bother doing an experiment that may or may not net results? When you could go with what's already established to work. Senor P. fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Jul 16, 2011 |
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Jul 16, 2011 00:14
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Winkle-Daddy posted:I dunno, I haven't been to it yet. I assume it has to do with if you're stopped at a light, in a parking lot and starting your car or whatever and someone walks up with a knife/gun and demands the keys to your car. It sounds like fun, but I would gladly give away my piece of poo poo car and collect the insurance money. I would just beg the car jacker to total the poo poo wagon. krav maga is so retarded lmao. anyone who thinks they can stop a guy with a gun from carjacking them by using groin kicks and eye gouges deserves the brutal gun slaying they will be on the receiving end of
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Jul 16, 2011 02:21
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Yeah I way rather give up my car and tell them to go hog wild and crash it at the end of the night or chop shop it really good. I have good insurance I'll take a new car over getting shot.
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Jul 16, 2011 02:37
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I haven't heard of a hijacking seminar that actually suggests you can fight your way out of a hijacking until now. They're usually things like 'make sure your driveway is well lit' and 'at traffic lights, leave space between you and the next car'. To be honest, I'm very doubtful of the value of any martial arts as a counter to armed ambushes.
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Jul 16, 2011 02:46
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HATE MONDAYS posted:krav maga is so retarded lmao. anyone who thinks they can stop a guy with a gun from carjacking them by using groin kicks and eye gouges deserves the brutal gun slaying they will be on the receiving end of I've voiced my opinion on this before - a lot of the self-defenses are really, really, really dumb and really only apply where the size discrepancy between attacker and defender is huge. I'm also not a fan of krav seminars - they're just a way of generating money. The belt system makes sure that lower-level people see these knife and gun defenses and then they don't get to practice them again for years. But they do say "Don't use this poo poo but hey, we're teaching it for funsies." And KMW's system of teaching groundwork is pretty lovely. But some of the striking techniques and defenses I've picked up in level 2 and 3 are pretty god damned effective, so I stick with it. G-Mawwwwwww fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Jul 16, 2011 |
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Jul 16, 2011 02:46
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niethan posted:I'm going to assume we are talking prime Lee and prime Tyson, right? \/Well, aren't we a bit too angry over a hypothetical 'who would win?' conversation over the Internet. Take a deep breath, and calm down. melon cat fucked around with this message at 03:07 on Jul 16, 2011 |
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Jul 16, 2011 02:48
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PLease shut the gently caress up melon cat.
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Jul 16, 2011 02:59
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melon cat posted:Uuhh... might want to edit your list, there. Bruce Lee had very long reach for a guy of his height- some estimates were reach of a 6' fighter. And you seem to be forgetting that Bruce Lee wasn't "just" an actor. He was one of the most successful martial artists in world history before acting, and people often challenged him to fights on the streets at the height of his fame so he had plenty of experience fighting outside of a ring. Sources? I seriously wouldn't put Bruce Lee on the same level as someone like Mas Oyama or John Blumming.
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Jul 16, 2011 03:27
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I think it's just cuz it's such an old and stupid argument. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6zlaIl0yh0
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Jul 16, 2011 03:30
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brouce lle had aprehensile penis he could win any grapplematch with it
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Jul 16, 2011 03:33
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