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UGH this book has been really poorly edited. Too much respect for the author perhaps? Too much time is spent on "character development" that neither develops the characters or the plot. About half the book is just boring variations of: Dany: I am a naive and ineffective ruler and teenage girl. Jon: I make poor decisions regarding my personal safety. Theon: I am Reek, this rhymes with something. Tyrion: Penny is a dwarf. I would have loved to read ~50 pages of this, after 600 I just want them to die and disappear from the plot forever. The actual plot developments are interesting though
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Jul 16, 2011 02:15
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Kainser posted:Daenerys is a 14-year (maybe 15 now?) old girl in ~irrational love~. Her actions that doesn't involve Daario are usually fairly reasonable considering her age. Jeyne Westerling at least seems like a good person. Also, when Robb describes her, he talks about more than just her looks. Neither or those things apply to Daario/Dany. Staying in Mereen was dumb and arrogant to the extreme. Marrying Hizdahr was shortsighted and dumb, but she sees it as a masterstroke of necessary policy/strategy. She never considers that he's either the Harpy himself or that he's extremely close to the leadership of the Sons of the Harpy. She doesn't question how he's able to IMMEDIATELY - as in, the same day - stop the violence the Harpy's Sons were perpetuating. Not once does she stop and consider the probability that she's handing over power directly to her enemies. She never stops and thinks about how marrying this scumbag Mereenese nobleman will affect her reception in Westeros down the line. Oh yeah, Westeros noble Houses will simply rush to make a horselord widow who's never seen the continent and doesn't even know the sigils of the great Houses into their Queen. Especially when they find out that a scumbag Mereenese nobleman who doesn't even speak the common tongue will be the King, that this guy will sit on the Iron Throne when the horselord's whore is indisposed. Those actions aren't anywhere close to "fairly reasonable", dude.
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Jul 16, 2011 02:18
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Wachepti posted:The problem with Dany is that she is a brilliant tactician/warleader with loving dragons trapped in the body of a 16 year old. She has been in a lot of life threatening situations throughout the first three books and handled them very well. This has built up our expectations of her. Unfortunately none of these situations prepared her for actually ruling. I came in here to basically say that Dany's entire story arc in this book was basically a recap of what GRRM had always said about how Robert Baratheon was good at claiming the throne, but not so much at ruling it. Dany's one of my favorite character's in the story and it's been great to see her grown for a scared child who's pimped out by her brother, to a woman who uses her dragons to take down an entire city, but I too was very aggravated by chapter after chapter of Dany having no clue how to run a loving city, marrying a jack-rear end in hope of keeping the peace and lusting after a bad-boy. I do however believe that GRRM wrote these chapters of Dany being an utterly lovely ruler and putting away the one thing that gave her power (the dragons), intentionally. He's always been good at writing flawed characters. I remember hating Sansa in A Game of Thrones and by A Storm of Swords, I was cheering for her when she was finally able to escape Joffery. Dany throwing off her chiton- sorry torka and flying away with Drogon made it worth enduring the chapters though. HOWEVER, I feel cheated because I really thought A Dance with Dragons would be about her training her dragons and getting her ducks, well dragons in a row to fly off to Westeros and now that she's half-mad with hunger and making GBS threads herself and back in Dothraki territory, I fear we won't even get that much in Winds of Winter. (I'm not sure if her final chapter meant that she's going insane because of her Targ gene's, or because she's out in the wilderness half-starving and sick from drinking unclean water. We shall see.) As for other characters, for all the 'hurr durr rape and lemoncakes finish the book fat man', GRRM has a great knack for writing characters. Not just in terms of their grown or development but his ability to take characters you once hated, and turn them into people you root for to pull through. I couldn't stand Jaime or The Hound in the first book and by book three they were some of my favorite characters. So of course the Theon chapters were my favorite chapters and it was great to see him go from an utterly destroyed and broken man that his own sister didn't recognize to someone who was able to risk his life to save poor Jeyne Poole. The name progression to 'Theon' in the final chapter made me smile. Tyrion I was just bored with. The first half is him drowning in booze, whores and his own self pity and I thought things would get exciting again once he meets Ser Jorah, but then we get stuck with Penny and the realization that (Gasp) Tyrion actually didn't have it half bad compared to the lives of commoner little people. I guess it's suppose to be an eye-opener and a lesson in humility for him, but it dragged on almost as badly as Dany's chapters did. Arya's chapters I liked, but I feel like her time training with the faceless men needs to come to an end. Obviously, she's not gonna live out the rest of her days with them, so the likely next step will be getting her to where the rest of the action is. Mucktron fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Jul 16, 2011 |
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Jul 16, 2011 02:20
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Ray_ posted:Jeyne Westerling at least seems like a good person. Also, when Robb describes her, he talks about more than just her looks. Neither or those things apply to Daario/Dany. She is a ~fifteen year old girl who was never that cunning to begin with. She also had very little or no education is politics. Her being politically retarded is totally plausible.
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Jul 16, 2011 02:27
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Don't forget, Dany's first reaction when she felt she was losing control was to get him the hell away from her. Robb's was, "Hey, let's get married even though it's going to be a huge loving disaster!"
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Jul 16, 2011 02:29
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SmugDogMillionaire posted:It's mainly his demeanor about the pies combined with the fact that that he requests The Rat Cook to be played. He also makes a great big deal about how the last time he saw the Freys was at the exchange of guest gifts, an antiquated ritual that's meant to formally mark the end of a visit. Manderley made absolutely sure that the laws of hospitality no longer protected the Freys before chopping them up, just as an extra insult.
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Jul 16, 2011 02:41
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Wait, do people think there's been a big conspiracy to kill Jon? I thought he was attacked because he betrayed his vows by deciding to march on Ramsay.
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Jul 16, 2011 02:52
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Ghost was acting crazy like Grey Wind was before the Red Wedding way before Jon decided to forsake his vows.
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Jul 16, 2011 03:00
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Silas the Mariner posted:For what reason? Also, to us as the readers it oozes with the character of the Bolton Bastard. I doubt Mance would have been around him long enough to pull off such a convincing imitation. I think it's a tough sell to "capture" Ramsay, as he's basically interacted solely with those he can play torture with, his father, and other scumbags. I think it's tough to get a bead on what his writing style would be when he's trying to draw Snow into the field.
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Jul 16, 2011 03:06
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Khobra posted:Wait, do people think there's been a big conspiracy to kill Jon? I thought he was attacked because he betrayed his vows by deciding to march on Ramsay. He was also attacked because he surrounded himself with dumbasses who refused to see the wildlings as anything but an enemy. Jon's plot can be basically summarized as "sends away everyone who respects him, surrounds himself with idiots."
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Jul 16, 2011 03:37
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My review and thoughts: I loved the Jon, Arya, Asha, Melisandre, Davos, Theon, and Bran Chapters. Theon's chapters were especially loving intense. I thought Tyrion chapters really didn't go anywhere and I am really disappointed. And DANY is a loving idiot (SHE DOES EVERYTHING WRONG), I can't stand her, her story sucked rear end and I hope Drogon fry's and eats her rear end. As far as Cersei, I hope she gets whats coming to her but in all likely hood she will get off with zombie Gregor being her champion in all. Manderly was cool as gently caress also and I hopefully he does some major damage to that psycho Ramsay. And Aegon going to Dorne is going to cause all kinds of poo poo in Westeros. I thought the letter to Jon from Ramsay was a major shock. It may not be true, but ya never know with GRRM. As far as Jon goes, now that I think about it, no way Jon is dead, he has been a major player throughout asoiaf and no way GRRM kills him off like that. Also his death underneath the bloody mace (the sigil of that knight who was hosed up by the giant) means he is fulfilling the prophecy of that Azor guy and will be reborn. I thought it was pretty good overall, better than a game of thrones and a feast for crows, but not as good as the other two books. Though it kinda dragged on a bit (Dany Tyrion = vomit). I don't see why GRRM didn't cut some of the fat (some of the fat being the constant traveling from one place to the next (boring) and stupid chacter's like Quentin, which was pointless) and combine the last two books. And you know poo poo is going down in the next book. The others are coming, Jon will be reborn as Azor, Stannis may be out of the picture, the Northmen may fight the nights watch over the child and Theon, and the Iron throne will be destabilized because of Kevan's death and the invasion of Aegon. Definitely looking forward to the next book, hopefully it doesn't take six loving years for GRRM to write the drat thing. Overall I give it a B (Tyrion- C-, and Dany- F or or a negative 100)
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Jul 16, 2011 03:49
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Also I never thought I'd want to see a Sansa chapter but now that she's actually reaching the zenith of her arc over the course of 4 books it might actually be interesting compared to an interior monologue of "hmm should I be a decisive leader who makes hard choices or a spoiled indolent child who lays around having sex all day?? time to tie up my dragons in a hole, brb"
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Jul 16, 2011 03:50
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I am confused by Ramsay's letter. How would he know it was Mance? Though he could of pried the ruby off of him. Though how would Mance know where to find Stannis and unless it was his mission to. I thought he was looking for the Karstark girl? Though I may have missed what his purpose was in the book. And why would Theon and the girl still be missing? Wouldn't Theon at least be considered prisoners of Stannis since he betrayed the Starks? Also wouldn't Stannis want to keep the girl close since she is suppose to be Arya stark and of high importance? And no way they just leave in the middle of a brutal storm. It could be a plot by Melisandre to spur Jon into action and help Stannis. She may have seen Theon in her visions and that could explain how she knew that Theon had the girl. This letter was very intriguing to me and a shock, almost as much as Jon's supposed death. drat now I gotta wait who knows how long for the next loving book to find out.
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Jul 16, 2011 04:20
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Master Kush posted:I am confused by Ramsay's letter. How would he know it was Mance? Though he could of pried the ruby off of him. Though how would Mance know where to find Stannis and unless it was his mission to. I thought he was looking for the Karstark girl? Though I may have missed what his purpose was in the book. And why would Theon and the girl still be missing? Wouldn't Theon at least be considered prisoners of Stannis since he betrayed the Starks? Also wouldn't Stannis want to keep the girl close since she is suppose to be Arya stark and of high importance? And no way they just leave in the middle of a brutal storm. It could be a plot by Melisandre to spur Jon into action and help Stannis. She may have seen Theon in her visions and that could explain how she knew that Theon had the girl. This letter was very intriguing to me and a shock, almost as much as Jon's supposed death. drat now I gotta wait who knows how long for the next loving book to find out. Mance was looking for Arya, who was believed to be in Winterfell marrying Ramsay. The Karstark girl was the one who Melisandre's vision eventually proved to be about, but Mance was sent away to find Arya, and infiltrated Winterfell as Abel. The spearwives Mance brought with him might have given away Mance's identity while Ramsay was in the process of flaying them. We don't know if Ramsay is lying about defeating Stannis, either. It could very well be a bluff. Why wouldn't it be, in fact? He doesn't know that his Reek ran to Stannis, and Theon knows Jon Snow. Maybe he thinks Theon found some way up to the wall with Jeyne. Presumably Theon would have told Stannis that Jeyne wasn't Arya, once he was brought to them. Basically the answer to "what the gently caress is up with Ramsay's letter" is "we don't know for sure, it got the same treatment Davos did in AFFC."
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Jul 16, 2011 04:27
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Just finished this today, and overall I thought it was really good. I only got into the series with the start of the HBO show, so I've only had about a month of waiting after finishing FFC. The whole Meereen storyline was really frustrating because with every Daenerys chapter I kept thinking "Okay maybe this time is when she's finally going to meet one of the other characters and something will finally happen." From the beginning of the book I was waiting for her to meet Tyrion, Quentyn, Victarion, and (once we learned about him) Aegon. But chapter after chapter went by and none of their paths converged. I just didn't care at all about the actual politics of Meereen and the slave cities. And then Tyrion nearly gets there but doesn't actually get to meet Dany, and Victarion doesn't even make it to the city. Quentyn showing up was a disappointment as well. I did like the final chapters at Meereen once Barristan took over, because he was great. I felt bad for Quentyn when he died, but I also couldn't help laughing. I do think that Dany's story will go somewhere interesting now that she's finally on her dragon, but I guess that remains to be seen. I dunno where Tyrion's story is going though, since he doesn't seem to have accomplished anything in this whole book. That was probably the most disappointing thing about it since he was my favorite character from the previous one. Everything else though, I really liked! Bran's story is getting interesting, though I wish it had been longer. Jon's story always kept me hooked even though it was a lot of set up. His being stabbed hit me as hard as Ned's death and the Red Wedding, though after finishing the book and thinking about it I decided that he'd definitely be alive somehow, whether it be through getting rescued at the last minute or Melisandre R'hlloring him back to life. Theon's chapters were great. I remarked to a friend of mine after reading FFC that the only two POV characters I'd never felt any sympathy for were Theon and Cersei. This book certainly changed that in Theon's case. The Boltons I thought really came out as fantastic villains in this book, and it was remarkable how Roose is demonstrated to be even worse than Ramsay, despite the fact that Ramsay is more obviously brutal. Biggest mystery in my mind right now is the two seemingly irreconcilable versions of events at Winterfell presented by Asha's last POV and the letter from Ramsay to John. He clearly knows about Mance, but I don't see how he could possibly have killed Stannis based on what we last saw of him. But my hands down favorite storyline was Davos' despite its briefness. I went into it hoping that his offscreen death in FFC was faked. But then after his encounter with Manderly in which he called for Davos' head, I believed we'd just seen the last of our Onion Knight. So then when another Davos chapter turned up, and it soon became clear that he was not only going to live, but was going to be helping a surprisingly devious Manderly find Rickon I was so happy I was giggling like a child throughout all of Davos' final chapter. Really looking forward to where that story goes. Davos has had a lot of poo poo happen to him and I'd really like to see him successful for once (I'm sure terrible things will happen to him though because that's the way these books are.)
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Jul 16, 2011 04:28
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Master Kush posted:I am confused by Ramsay's letter. How would he know it was Mance? You did read Reek's chapters right? Ramsay doesn't seem like one to shy from a bit of torture.
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Jul 16, 2011 04:33
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Mucktron posted:
Yeah I had similar expectations. Something that just occurred to me is that grrm is trying to avoid this problem that is really common in a lot of fantasy novels. It seems to me that once Dany has all her dragon poo poo together she will be more powerful than anything else in the ASOIAF world. A lot of fantasy (His Dark Materials comes to mind) has these really powerful characters and basically has them dicking around when the solution to their problem is to just take their power and kill the bad guys. Once Dany has her dragon situation all set up there's nothing to stop her from conquering Westeros and dragonbreathing/napalming the Others till they're dead. Grrm very deliberately avoids common fantasy tropes or completely subverts them so I think that is one he's trying to avoid.
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Jul 16, 2011 04:47
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So I think there is one line that shoots a big hole in the "Theon got gelded/is a eunuch idea, in the "Turncloak" chapterTheon posted:He wanted to hit her, to smash that mocking smile off her face. He wanted to kiss her, to gently caress her right there on the table and make her cry his name. But he knew he dare not touch her, in anger or in lust So either he has forgotten that he's got nothing going on down there, or there is something else going on. There are a lot of cases of him not wanting others to see him naked, and lots of "not a man" hints, but this seems to contradict all of that. Maybe it's just some kind of disfigurement, but he still has the family jewels?
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Jul 16, 2011 04:47
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He could still want to gently caress her while being physically unable to.
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Jul 16, 2011 04:52
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Well depending on the level of mutilation, he could still have sexual urges without being able to, ah, act on them. e: goddammit
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Jul 16, 2011 04:52
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I understand that (especially if Ramsey cut off the cock and left the balls), and it's even something mentioned occasionally about the Unsullied. But his thought is that he "dare not" do it. You can only "dare not" do something if you are capable of doing it.
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Jul 16, 2011 05:04
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Joining in on the hatred of Dany's chapters, at least until her last two. The last one was basically her voices telling her what I'd been shouting the entire time. Why the gently caress should you care about being the mother of freed slaves, or the death of some random child? It may make you a sociopath, but you're the MOTHER OF DRAGONS. You caused the greatest miracle in a thousand years, and accomplished the opposite of Summerhall, yet you decide to lock your true children up? gently caress. Also, I don't know who said it, but thanks for pointing out that Tyrion/Jorah's boat translated as Perfumed Seneschal. Missed that part.
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Jul 16, 2011 05:18
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So, we have a massive fleet of Ironmen barring down on Meereen, followed by a massive fleet from Volantis, whom a great number will most likely betray their masters and follow the Red priest. So that's... a lot of ships. GRRM is setting up a massive exodus from Meereen, but knowing him Danny will never leave for Westros, and Jon Snow is really dead. Also, Little Finger is the Prince who was promised.
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Jul 16, 2011 05:25
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hhhmmm posted:She is a ~fifteen year old girl who was never that cunning to begin with. She also had very little or no education is politics. Her being politically retarded is totally plausible. Dany went from conquering 3 cities in a matter of days, with brilliant masterstrokes that she mostly came up with it, to acting like a stupid, emotional teenager in love. Her marrying Hizwahtever was obviously dumb but she wanted peace without having to fry an entire city. He gave her the peace while she got to ride her dream boat. I can see why she deluded herself for a time. Dany is also proved to be an unreliable narrator in Dance. Yes, her inner dialogue claimed she would give up her crown for Daario, but her actions spoke very clearly otherwise. Dany was way too perfect before Dance so some ruling mishaps and blunders were needed before she reaches Westeros.
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Jul 16, 2011 05:28
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Wachepti posted:Well depending on the level of mutilation, he could still have sexual urges without being able to, ah, act on them. And in fact, being unable to act on the urges but still being capable of having them seems more cruel, and thus seems Ramsay's more likely course of action. It's POSSIBLE that Theon is not actually physically castrated and only believes himself to be so as a by-product of all the abuse/brainwashing involved in being made into Reek. But I think it's much more likely that Ramsay really did castrate him at one point, perhaps as "punishment" for Theon's "rape" of Kyra (the bedwarmer he kept and Ramsay later claimed/took from him when he took Winterfell from Theon). I mean, castration is a common enough punishment/threat in Westeros, and I'm sure somebody in the Dreadfort knows how to do it and has the tools on hand, and I can't see Ramsay being squeamish or merciful enough to shy away from cutting a dude's dong up and/or off. I'm glad GRRM decided to leave it heavily implied and easily inferred rather than stated overtly or described in detail.
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Jul 16, 2011 05:29
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Montasque posted:
Little Finger: the Pedo that was promised
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Jul 16, 2011 05:31
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Danny is Alexander the Great. She's a conqueror, not a ruler. The whole book was GRRM hitting us over the head again and again that because she was not following her nature she had to be punished. And it all ended with her eating poo poo berries and drinking poo poo water. Why? Because she deserves it after those poo poo chapters. Now I hope she gets her teen rear end on those ships the Ironmen are conveniently bringing for her, after she burns Meereen to the ground.
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Jul 16, 2011 05:36
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If I were to rank the POV's, they would go like this: Theon > Davos > Bran > Jon > Everything else > Tyrion > Dany. So yeah, those are my final evaluations for the book. edit: VVVVVV I agree, I think Dinklage brought a lot to the character and if he is able to do the same thing he did in the show, I believe he will be manageable in the HBO adaptation of A Dance with Dragons. Hell, that show made me actually love jolly old Sam. Contra Calculus fucked around with this message at 06:10 on Jul 16, 2011 |
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Jul 16, 2011 05:41
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Contra Calculus posted:If I were to rank the POV's, they would go like this: Agree. Tyrion has fallen quite a bit for me from his place as Hand. Somehow I expect Dinklage will manage to make me continue to love Tyrion through his kinslayer funk & Penny jousting business in the show.
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Jul 16, 2011 05:52
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If the naked septa is actually Ashara, then I rather like the Brandon Stark date raped her theory and hope it's true. At this point, R+L=J would almost seem too obvious. They separate Aegon from Elia, Lyanna (future queen) becomes his milk-mother and that would explain why the Kingsguard is there. Lyanna dies giving birth to a stillborn girl, a story Ashara uses to fake her own suicide so she can raise Aegon. Ned takes his brother rape spawn in hopes it doesn't turn out to be another Ramsey, sworn to secrecy by two women he cared about. A nice correlation to Jon playing baby-switch with Monster and Mance's kid. Slackarius posted:Agree. Tyrion has fallen quite a bit for me from his place as Hand. Somehow I expect Dinklage will manage to make me continue to love Tyrion through his kinslayer funk & Penny jousting business in the show. Penny is the only thing that really ruined Tyrion. Was all excited to see the Bear back in action and instead we get loving Penny. I really don't give a gently caress all about Asha though and Jon still has no personality.
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Jul 16, 2011 06:10
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http://thinkprogress.org/alyssa/2011/07/15/270611/on-a-dance-with-dragons/ Here's a really great review of the books that discusses a lot of the faults with the book, and also explains the point of the Tyrion chapters, which I think many of you have missed.
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Jul 16, 2011 06:13
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Space Pussy posted:If the naked septa is actually Ashara, then I rather like the Brandon Stark date raped her theory and hope it's true. At this point, R+L=J would almost seem too obvious.
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Jul 16, 2011 06:51
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regulargonzalez posted:Timeline doesn't work, impossible for Jon to be B+A unless he were a couple years older. Harrenhal was something like two years before Robert's Rebellion. It's not like he carries around a birth certificate. You could easily pass off a 1 year old as a new born.
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Jul 16, 2011 07:07
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Speaking of Stark bastards, wasn't there a teen girl in the court of Manderlay named Wylla? She seemed to really be in it for house Stark during that show trail Manderley put on for Davos.
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Jul 16, 2011 07:15
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Montasque posted:Speaking of Stark bastards, wasn't there a teen girl in the court of Manderlay named Wylla? She seemed to really be in it for house Stark during that show trail Manderley put on for Davos. There was a Wylla there but that's probably about as significant as there being fifty people in the books named Robert, Rhaegar, or Walder.
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Jul 16, 2011 07:19
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FuriousxGeorge posted:Don't forget, Dany's first reaction when she felt she was losing control was to get him the hell away from her. Robb's was, "Hey, let's get married even though it's going to be a huge loving disaster!" Well, at least Robb's reasons were somewhat understandable. He was wounded and Jeyne cared for him, which led to sex. Being his father's son, and not wanting to make his mistake too (fathering a Bastard - as if Moon Tea doesn't exist), he did the "honourable" thing and married her. Breaking his vow to the Freys in the process, but Robb is apparently blind like that. Stupid, but at least Robb's reason was somewhat rooted in his personality/upbringing. Dany's string of decisions was simply flailing around and coming off like a crazy, brutal, unpredictable dictator (one day lopping off heads and taking away traditions, the next day feeding starving refugees with plague) like Cersei did. Robb made some stupid decisions, but at least he was consequent in his behaviour. Of course additionally either the whole thing with Jeyne was set up by Tywin Lannister or Jeyne's father saw the opportunity and made a deal with Tywin after the marriage. Still, I wonder what's up with the apparently fake Jeyne that left Riverrun with the Westerlings (as her description differs very much from the one in ASoS - good, wide hips and a nice rack became "a wisp of a girl").
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Jul 16, 2011 07:32
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Space Pussy posted:It's not like he carries around a birth certificate. You could easily pass off a 1 year old as a new born. You could?
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Jul 16, 2011 07:55
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Finished.... My full analysis is coming but gently caress the 'leal' poo poo and the cliffhangers... Halfway through the book and you leave Davos lookin for Rickon and never pick it back up? Also Dany is dumb as gently caress.
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Jul 16, 2011 08:30
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One thing I noticed was that occasionally some esoteric word like "vainglorious" would be dropped into a chapter and then the same word would get repeated in the very next chapter. Happened a few times and it's something I noticed in his previous books too.
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Jul 16, 2011 08:33
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The Ninth Layer posted:One thing I noticed was that occasionally some esoteric word like "vainglorious" would be dropped into a chapter and then the same word would get repeated in the very next chapter. Happened a few times and it's something I noticed in his previous books too. "Words are Wind" and "if she looked back" are the "half a groat" and "nuncle" of 2011. Suddenly everyone in the book uses the phrase. I actually like "words are wind", but seeing it a couple of dozen times makes it annoying.
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Jul 16, 2011 09:01
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