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It occurs to me that if Jon gets revived and is released from his vows by death, that the dangling plot thread from Storm of Swords where Robb sent Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover to Greywater Watch will actually get a resolution. If Jon is released from his vows and Stannis is dead, then Howland/Mormont/Glover can declare Jon the new King in the North by Robb's proclamation. I think Greatjon Umber is still alive too - but a Frey prisoner - and he was also witness to Robb's declaration of his heir.
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Jul 16, 2011 17:42
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doctor thodt posted:Which is stupid, because the implication was obviously that Cersei and Jaime are secret Targs. It could just be that I'm stupid, because I honestly don't see where any of this comes from. We get one brief allusion to Aery's possibly fondling Joanna during the bedding (which isn't all that out of place anyway in this world; we've gotten like 6 descriptions of Westoros bedding customs now, and that sick gently caress Ramsay aside they all involve a bunch of drunks ripping the clothes off the bride before chucking her in to the bedroom. In this world that sort of conduct seems to be more or less accepted). That does not lead to "he hosed her, they had an affair, those are Aerys kids, blah blah blah". It's just stupid fantasy wish fulfillment. None of them are Targaryens.
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Jul 16, 2011 17:55
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Kainser posted:Stannis believes that kingship is his duty as well, Varys should support him If he is still alive, I can totally see Stannis backing down and supporting Aegon or Dany. He never wanted the throne, only believed that it was his duty to claim it since his since his brother had no true-born heirs. That is the Law of Succession, and Stannis is nothing if not rigidly lawful. Either Dany or Aegon have a far more legitimate claim to the Iron Throne than he does and I don't think it'd be within character for him to fight them for it (basing this off of the conversation he had with Davos at some point about how torn he was at Robert's Rebellion.) I think he might even self-exile himself to the Wall in that case as well. I hear they could use some new leadership up there.
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Jul 16, 2011 18:02
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Slackarius posted:If he is still alive, I can totally see Stannis backing down and supporting Aegon or Dany. He never wanted the throne, only believed that it was his duty to claim it since his since his brother had no true-born heirs. That is the Law of Succession, and Stannis is nothing if not rigidly lawful. Either Dany or Aegon have a far more legitimate claim to the Iron Throne than he does and I don't think it'd be within character for him to fight them for it (basing this off of the conversation he had with Davos at some point about how torn he was at Robert's Rebellion.) I think he might even self-exile himself to the Wall in that case as well. I hear they could use some new leadership up there. No, everybody in the Seven Kingdoms bend their knee to Robert. The throne now belongs to House Baratheon. If the Targs want it back, they have to take it back by force, or Stannis has to give it up, and the rest has to bend the knee to the Targs.
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Jul 16, 2011 18:05
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Since Martin said he cut out about 100 already written pages from ADWD and moved them to the next book, some of which resolve dangling plotlines from both ADWD and AFFC, any guesses as to what plotlines they are? Also I have a feeling if he had kept those 100 pages Dragons would have been a more satisfying book. theblackw0lf fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Jul 16, 2011 |
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Jul 16, 2011 18:12
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Ixian posted:It could just be that I'm stupid, because I honestly don't see where any of this comes from. We get one brief allusion to Aery's possibly fondling Joanna during the bedding (which isn't all that out of place anyway in this world; we've gotten like 6 descriptions of Westoros bedding customs now, and that sick gently caress Ramsay aside they all involve a bunch of drunks ripping the clothes off the bride before chucking her in to the bedroom. In this world that sort of conduct seems to be more or less accepted). That does not lead to "he hosed her, they had an affair, those are Aerys kids, blah blah blah". GRRM is a real big believer in Chekov's gun. Book 4: "The Golden Company may have broken their contract with Myr." A nice bit of fluff to make the world seem alive right? Six years later...Hi Jon Connington and Aegon Targaryen! I think the secret Targ stuff is annoying, but considering the precedent, I'm not going to discount it.
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Jul 16, 2011 18:23
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theblackw0lf posted:Since Martin said he cut out about 100 already written pages from ADWD and moved them to the next book, some of which resolve dangling plotlines from both ADWD and AFFC, any guesses as to what plotlines they are? I thought I read somewhere that most of the cut material concerned Sansa, Brienne, and Arienne Martell.
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Jul 16, 2011 18:33
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Aurubin posted:GRRM is a real big believer in Chekov's gun. Book 4: "The Golden Company may have broken their contract with Myr." A nice bit of fluff to make the world seem alive right? Six years later...Hi Jon Connington and Aegon Targaryen! That doesn't really fit the definition at all. I never thought the (several) references to The Golden Company breaking their contract in AFFC were fluff; I fully expected to hear more about them. It seemed like a really obvious plot point, given that AFFC was dedicated to the goings-on in Westoros and the next book would cover the other side of the narrow sea during the same time - I figured it was a way to connect the two, and it was. While I didn't expect Connington I wasn't surprised at all to find chapters about it in this book. In other news, over on Westeros.org it is almost accepted as fact now that Varys is a Blackfyre. Did I miss something pointing to this, or is it just an assumption based off of A) the exile of the Blackfyres and B) that Varys needs some motivation to do what he's doing, and that would supply it (sort of).
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Jul 16, 2011 18:43
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Christ Pseudoscientist posted:I thought I read somewhere that most of the cut material concerned Sansa, Brienne, and Arienne Martell. Sansa was cut for certain; he mentioned a year or two ago he was pushing her back. Brienne, Arienne, and Damphair were later confirmed to be in the next book as well, but I don't know if they were written then pushed back or he always planned that.
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Jul 16, 2011 18:44
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Ixian posted:Sansa was cut for certain; he mentioned a year or two ago he was pushing her back. Brienne, Arienne, and Damphair were later confirmed to be in the next book as well, but I don't know if they were written then pushed back or he always planned that. http://grrm.livejournal.com/217066.html#cutid1 quote:Actually, though, it might be easier to tell you who they aren't. Sansa, Sam, Aeron Damphair, Arianne, and Brienne have no chapters in A DANCE WITH DRAGONS. Several of those characters had chapters written, completed, and polished that have been moved into THE WINDS OF WINTER. Part of that editorial process I mentioned up above.
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Jul 16, 2011 18:46
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The Blackfyre thing seems like it has even less evidence than the secret Targs. I don't fault them for grasping at straws concerning Varys' motivation; he's frustratingly mysterious. I really hope it's something totally unrelated to heritage, if but to subvert expectation. Or he gets stabbed and just whispers "For the realm..." and expires so we never know.
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Jul 16, 2011 19:26
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Varys will get stabbed and then we find out that he had a dick all along! 
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Jul 16, 2011 19:31
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And that his dick was a Targaryen! I really liked the fact that the dragons weren't just tame, pliable weapons for Dany.
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Jul 16, 2011 19:35
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So if by some miracle the HBO series actually gets past the third book, I don't see any reason why AFFC and ADWD couldn't be made into a single season. I mean, a lot of characters' chapters are amazingly repetitive, and if it was a full two seasons, where would the stopping point for the first season be?
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Jul 16, 2011 19:40
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The amount of bitching might make them try and avoid it though. But that's not how it happened in the books! 
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Jul 16, 2011 19:46
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I was under the impression that Quentyn was a real bad rear end and at one point thought he was disguised as Daario before I started reading ADWD. Was this a theory, or has six years between books just hosed with what I remembered?
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Jul 16, 2011 19:54
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I always thought that most of FFC would be merged into the second season of SOS, and DWD would have its own season. Even if it's repetitive at times, the overall tone of the book is much different from the previous books. It's darker and there are a lot more fantasy elements, seems like it'd be better suited to put that in its own season to give it the attention it'd need. Meme Emulator posted:I was under the impression that Quentyn was a real bad rear end and at one point thought he was disguised as Daario before I started reading ADWD. Was this a theory, or has six years between books just hosed with what I remembered? I think everyone thought Quentyn was going to be badass, but we forgot that A. Quentyn is Doran's son, not Oberyn's and B. The last time we had a "badass" young prince that wasn't already dead we got Darkstar.
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Jul 16, 2011 19:55
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Or they could make 2 seasons, but put the story in chronological order (so there's both North and South scenes).
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Jul 16, 2011 19:55
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Is Quentyn the first dead POV character since Ned? Edit - other than the prologue / epilogue guys, obviously. Edit 2 electric etc - oh yeah, Oakheart. Man, Dorn is so memorable... ......... The only explanation for his entire plot line I can come up with is "severely rethought during the FFC/DWD break", because as it stands, it's 100% pointless. Xander77 fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Jul 16, 2011 |
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Jul 16, 2011 20:12
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Finished it last night with mixed feelings. It was generally a good read and remained interesting enough, but I was still left with a feeling that not much had happened. I was expecting most of the book to be a build up, but I'd figured he'd at least end with the Others attacking and Dany on her way to Westeros. As it stands, we've seen the Others, what, twice? And Daenerys is sitting in a field somewhere, still unable to really get Drogon to do as she wants. We only have 2 books left (assuming they actually come to pass). There are already like a billion threads with loose ends that need to be tied up, so it'd be nice if the two major things in the series could actually get underway and have some time to develop. It was a strange feeling to be looking forward to Bran chapters, but it was kind of lame that they ended midway through the book. Also, did anyone else think it was a little ridiculous Bran didn't ask about the Others immediately upon meeting the Children of the Forest. You find out that the evil creatures threatening humanity you'd heard about in stories are real and back in force again, you travel hundreds of miles in snow to meet what turns out to be another race supposedly mythical creatures, who happened to help defeat the Others, and the first thing you ask about is your loving LEGS? I don't know man, maybe in between learning to warg into a bird you could, I don't know, ask about the evil creatures now threatening to destroy all of humanity. Just a thought. You know, since the Children of the Forest are probably the only ones who really know about them at this point... Also, was I the only one who thought Jon's reaction to the Bolton letter was out of character and didn't make any sense? It specifically says he doesn't have Arya, so why does he care so much? Because he threatened him? Who gives a gently caress? You're on a huge magic wall surrounded by thousands of wildlings and hundreds of Nights Watch men. I mean, come on, the guy decides to stay on the Wall when his father has been murdered and his brother is going to war, but some random douche says he'll kill him and he's going to abandon his post as Lord Commander during perilous times to deal with this pointless poo poo? I also think he probably should have let those remaining wildlings die. Sending the ships was fine, I guess, but they failed and from the sounds of it, everything is hosed. It seemed like too far a trek to have any real chance of success at this point. The Daenerys poo poo has already been covered a fair amount, but I'll just say that while I get GRRM was trying to show she's still a young girl at heart in a lot of ways, it also seemed out of character. Yes, she's young, and sometimes young girls fall for bad-boy assholes, but I'd think you'd grow up and mature a bit faster having lived the life she has. Whatever. It wouldn't have been so bad if the Meereen poo poo had been wrapped up by the end. Or if at least more of the characters trying to find her had gotten to her by now. I mean, think about it. At the end of AFFC it seemed like Victarion, Quentyn Martell, Tyrion, and Marwyn the Mage were all going to converge in Meereen and seek out Dany and that seemed interesting. Then early on, we also find out baby Aegon is alive and also going there. Cool. Except, the only one who ever makes it there and talks to her is Quentyn, who fails miserably and is burned to death rather quickly. We never even hear anything about Marwyn. Basically, I see the point of showing Daenerys is a good conqueror, but doesn't know how to rule. However, he didn't need to make her a stupid hormonal teenager, and he could have wrapped it up a lot quicker. Also, I knew GRRM was prone to repeating words and phrases, but it seemed especially bad this time. Words are wind. You know nothing. Wherever whores go. Rains of Castamere. Jape. Mummer. Even grease running down the chin made a comeback. Does GRRM not understand that you can eat meat without getting juice all over your face? I cringed when Selmy was talking about Aerys/Joanna. Please don't go there. Aegon wasn't a great shock to me and I guessed it early on, but no more secret Targs. (Other than Jon, of course). I like the Ashara = Lemore theory though. The Bran-tree vision seemed to support the Lyanna as the Laughing Knight theory. At least I gathered that was Lyanna beating Ned at swordplay. Also, kind of cool that Theon seemingly heard Bran in the tree when he was there. All in all, pretty solid, but poo poo better get a move on in the next book. No more dicking around. Also, he should probably dial the fake deaths/fake identities thing back a bit. I think that well is running a bit dry at this point.
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Jul 16, 2011 20:15
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Xander77 posted:Is Quentyn the first dead POV character since Ned? Arys Oakheart, and a bunch of one timers I believe Beard Collector fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Jul 16, 2011 |
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Jul 16, 2011 20:15
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Xander77 posted:Is Quentyn the first dead POV character since Ned? No, there was the Kingsguard in Dorne (Oakheart). And I usually count Catelyn, just cause I think that Lady Stoneheart is basically a different character.
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Jul 16, 2011 20:22
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I think the 'point' with the Quentyn chapters was to add some conflict between Dorne and Daenerys in future books.
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Jul 16, 2011 20:24
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Kainser posted:I think the 'point' with the Quentyn chapters was to add some conflict between Dorne and Daenerys in future books. Right, essentially Dany not only spurned Dorne, but got their heir killed because she was too lovely to control her dragons. Gerris Drinkwater and the Yronwood knight are both witness to this and are probably making their way back to Dorne. This, combined with the return of Aegon and the availability of Arianne Martell to be married off to Aegon, definitely sets the groundwork for a Dorne+Aegon vs. Dothraki+Dany conflict. Hang on a sec, I just realized something: War of the Three Queens - Queen Margaery on the Iron Throne and all the power of the West vs. Queen Arianne from Dorne with the power of the Golden Company and the East vs. Queen Daenerys and her dragons. I really don't think Myrcella is going to be the third queen in this equation. Brannock fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Jul 16, 2011 |
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Jul 16, 2011 20:28
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Steve112sms posted:
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Jul 16, 2011 20:32
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Remind me what the Laughing Knight is again?
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Jul 16, 2011 20:40
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Mystery knight at the tournament at Harrenhal who defended Howland Reed's honor. Leading contender for identity is Lyanna Stark. In ADwD news, who thinks the Harpy is the Green Grace? Let's Scooby Doo this poo poo.
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Jul 16, 2011 20:45
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Aurubin posted:In ADwD news, who thinks the Harpy is the Green Grace? Let's Scooby Doo this poo poo. That was my feeling as well. Although I can't remember a lot of specifics for why I thought that to be the case. I guess mostly the way she was always advising Daenerys to appease the Sons of Harpy. I have to admit, I sort of liked Daario's suggestion of dealing with them at the wedding. OK, maybe not killing them, but arresting them instead until they could sort it out.
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Jul 16, 2011 20:47
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Brannock posted:Right, essentially Dany not only spurned Dorne, but got their heir killed because she was too lovely to control her dragons. Gerris Drinkwater and the Yronwood knight are both witness to this and are probably making their way back to Dorne. Quentyn wasn't the heir to Dorne; Arianne is, due to their equal primogeniture.
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Jul 16, 2011 20:58
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My gut feeling is Aegon will die really in the attack on Storm's End. I kinda wish Viserys had lived, got 50,000 Dothraki warriors, met up with 10,000 strong Golden Company, sailed to Westeros thinking he's about to win, only to be introduced to Aegon whose claim is far stronger. The reaction would have been amazing.
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Jul 16, 2011 21:09
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Finished this morning, I enjoyed it. Less direct progress than I would have liked, mostly because all of the Dany chapters up til the end are mostly dicking around with Mereenese politics. One question though, looking in this thread people keep throwing around "Hodor dies" as a spoiler but I don't remember anything like this happening? quick edit: I am probably just missing a joke, aren't I.
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Jul 16, 2011 21:18
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Well I did enjoy this book a lot better than AFFC, which made the wait a little better. The first half of the book was more interesting and I didn't expect the Aegon reveal. I definitively liked the Davos chapters just as I did in Feast. Theon's were great as well(Reek it rhymes with sneak) as he tries to fight for his sanity. Jon's chapters had ups and down, on one side he was dealing with Stannis and getting poo poo done preparing for the Others. The downside was oh no who will think of the Wildlings every loving chapter(You know nothing) and my vows. Bran's chapters were good, but too few of them. I had some hope for Dany's chapters before she promises to marry the Hizhar. I was hoping she would take the hardcore route and start making heads role with the Harpy's. Her story stagnates after that and it is all about Daario every chapter. Tyrion's chapters started out promising as well, with the exploration of the Free Cities and the like. When Penny got involved my interest waned, they should of had her die in slavery to make Tyrion more tragic. On the topic of slavery GRRM had this whole time to show why slavery was terrible through Tyrions eyes and he wasted it. Barristan was great. gently caress the Martell's chapters, poo poo was stupid. Asha's chapters gave us eyes on Stannis. Victorian's chapters show us how everything is converging on Meereen in the next book so I have that to look forward to.  Overall I enjoyed the book. Hoping Meeren gets torched in the next book after a few chapters and move they move someplace else.
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Jul 16, 2011 21:21
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Midnight- posted:My gut feeling is Aegon will die really in the attack on Storm's End. Wouldn't Viserys' claim been the stronger one by far, being the son of Aerys, while Aegon is son of Rhaegar? Edit: Never mind, you are right, Aegon would have the stronger claim.
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Jul 16, 2011 21:25
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Darth Windu posted:Roose doesn't seem any worse than, say, Tywin Lannister. He is not shown as being cruel in any manner. He is simply utilitarian to a terrifying degree. Roose Bolton posted:“This miller’s marriage had been performed without my leave or knowledge. The man had cheated me. So I had him hanged, and claimed my rights beneath the tree where he was swaying. If truth be told, the wench was hardly worth the rope. The fox escaped as well, and on our way back to the Dreadfort my favorite courser came up lame, so all in all it was a dismal day. doctor thodt posted:Which is stupid, because the implication was obviously that Cersei and Jaime are secret Targs. The point of the story was to show that Aerys wanted Joanna. Space Pussy posted:If the naked septa is actually Ashara, then I rather like the Brandon Stark date raped her theory and hope it's true. At this point, R+L=J would almost seem too obvious. regulargonzalez posted:Timeline doesn't work, impossible for Jon to be B+A unless he were a couple years older. Harrenhal was something like two years before Robert's Rebellion. There's a theory that Brandon Stark raped Ashara Dayne? I pride myself on knowing most viable theorie (and even coming up with a few), but I've never heard that one nor do I remember reading any hints at it. When was Brandon even in a position to rape Ashara Dayne? Dude lived in Winterfell and only came south before his death for the tourney at Harrenhal - where Ned danced with and fell in love with and dishonored (according to Barristan) her.
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Jul 16, 2011 22:00
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Has it even been revealed when Benjen went to the Wall and for what purpose? I don't remember if he was already there by the time of the rebellion or if he joined after.
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Jul 16, 2011 22:05
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Christ Pseudoscientist posted:Has it even been revealed when Benjen went to the Wall and for what purpose? I don't remember if he was already there by the time of the rebellion or if he joined after. I would also like to know this about Jeor Mormont.
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Jul 16, 2011 22:07
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HelixFox posted:I would also like to know this about Jeor Mormont. Jeor Mormont went to the wall to give Jorah the seat of Bear Island. And that worked out great.
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Jul 16, 2011 22:17
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Steve112sms posted:The one GRRM phrase I really can't stand is "sweet sister" (often preceded by "I love you too", which invariably gets used whenever Tyrion talks to Cersei, talks about her, or thinks about her. And GRRM clearly missed not being able to have Tyrion use the phrase in AFFC, so he had Jaime start using it instead, culminating in it being used 2 times in as many pages at one point.
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Jul 16, 2011 22:17
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It is pretty interesting how people in this thread can both trust and distrust the info they are given in the book. Septa that was once pregnant? Gotta be Ashara. There's no way she is who she says she is. Ramsay says he beat Stannis and took his sword? Well if Ramsay said it, it must be true! Either way, I liked the book, I just don't like the fact that the first 800 pages were setting up the last 100 pages, and the last 100 pages were setting up further books.
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Jul 16, 2011 22:45
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Xander77 posted:Oh yeah, forgot to ask. I got the Lyanna / Ned thing, but were we supposed to know anything about the other Winterfell Weirdwood scenes? Specifically, the arrows? I don't think we are, though the pregnant lady seems very very familiar, I just can't put my finger on it. It wasn't supposed to be Lyanna and Ned fighting, I think, but it was Lyanna and Benjen. The girl is described as being older than the boy, and Lyanna wasn't older than Ned. Aurubin posted:In ADwD news, who thinks the Harpy is the Green Grace? Let's Scooby Doo this poo poo. Like I had said: a harpy is a woman and the Green Grace is the only Mereenese noblewoman we know, she is VERY sympathetic to the Sons of the Harpy, urges Dany to marry a Ghiscari, etc. Tiger Crazy posted:Jon's chapters had ups and down, on one side he was dealing with Stannis and getting poo poo done preparing for the Others. The downside was oh no who will think of the Wildlings every loving chapter(You know nothing) and my vows.
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Jul 16, 2011 22:52
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