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regulargonzalez posted:Harranhal was 2 years before Robert's Rebellion, which was roughly a year or so before Robb was born, who is 14 at the time of AGOT. That means Ned had to be 18-20ish at *youngest* at the time of the Harranhal tourney -- i.e., fully grown adult. I've never read him being described as small (unless it was by comparison to Gregor or something). How are you figuring him to be small? I don't have digital copies of the books, so searching is a pain. I do recall Ned being referred to as "the small wolf" during the story and I guess that my not figuring out the timeline caused me to think it was when he was younger, about 14 or so. The Lyanna theory definitely makes more sense now that I'm aware of the timeline.
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Jul 17, 2011 10:24
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TTBF posted:I don't have digital copies of the books, so searching is a pain. I do recall Ned being referred to as "the small wolf" during the story and I guess that my not figuring out the timeline caused me to think it was when he was younger, about 14 or so. The Lyanna theory definitely makes more sense now that I'm aware of the timeline. I recall Ned being "the quiet wolf" in the story. Number one reason why ADWD is a disappointment: first book with no mention of Bronn at all.
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Jul 17, 2011 10:34
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HelixFox posted:I recall Ned being "the quiet wolf" in the story. Tyrion compares a few sellswords to Bronn  The result is always: NOT BRONN ENOUGH
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Jul 17, 2011 10:38
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dumb brunette posted:Ugh, passing this series off to Joe Abercrombie would be my greatest nightmare. GRRM seems unable to write the series "right" the way only he could
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Jul 17, 2011 10:57
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bigmcgaffney posted:I don't really remember how the past books handled cliffhangers and such but it seemed like there were way too many throughout ADWD. If you haven't read the old books recently and can't remember stuff like this fair enough, but it's safe to say that in the first 3 books (including Storm, which everyone agrees is badass) there are shitloads of cliffhangers, not just at the end, and plenty of significant stuff happens offscreen (one of the biggest advantages of the POV structure, and easily the thing that rewards careful readers/rereads the most). Maybe 6 years of waiting have led you to expect more resolution or maybe your tastes have changed, but really these two things are hallmarks of the series it seems a little unfair to expect them to change halfway through. It's really just a side effect of so many concurrent threads/POVs. bigmcgaffney posted:Victarion is a badass, he goes along with every religion just to cover his bases while he burns and drowns people left and right. I hated Victarion in feast, but his ADWD chapters totally turned me around (perhaps because I find the red priests and R'hllor one of the most interesting threads in the series). bigmcgaffney posted:Quentyn had a sad plotline, I was rooting for him to succeed because Dorne rules, but sadly there was no place for naive heroics in this series. I felt like the purpose of Quentyn's plotline was to establish (in tandem with Dany's) that who Dany is riding or is currently married to is completely inconsequential, something that either a lot of people missed or I completely read wrong. What's important (and probably important enough to take a book to establish) is that she has dragons, all her power derives from the dragons, and she needs to use her loving dragons if she hopes to achieve anything, even though the cost is high. Drogon gave her a nice reminder, and then Quentyn released (ok, mistakenly released) the other two as a nice little object lesson in case she's thick enough to miss it (probably a good move on his part!) bigmcgaffney posted:But in the end both Jon and Dany can't overcome the resistance to change, and pay severely for it. Maybe. Jon will be rezzed but he gets shanked even though he did a pretty good job I read Jon's story at least a little differently. As long as he acted in the interests of the Night's Watch, he could make drastic changes, he could make bad decisions and his people would grudgingly fall into line. Then he discards his flimsy shield of honor, and the people around him no longer see any reason to put up with it. I think he was doing just fine, making decisions where the none of them were easy, changing enough that the Watch stands a fighting chance at having some warning of the Others. But after asking for the trust of everyone who stood for him and followed him, he stands up and announces he plans to break his oath, for real this time. I find it very hard to defend. At least the part about Stannis in the letter is almost certainly a blatant lie. bigmcgaffney posted:while Dany did a poo poo job and will probably get another army of Dothraki because of it. That's just how Dany rolls. That's the luxury of having dragons, provided you actually remember that you are Mother of Dragons. hampig fucked around with this message at 11:30 on Jul 17, 2011 |
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Jul 17, 2011 11:26
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About Arya's assassination: where is it said that the Faceless Men's coins are poisonous? I must have glazed over that.
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Jul 17, 2011 11:36
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Vivek posted:Any ideas on what Bran saw in his last chapter? Something about a guy getting his throat cut by a woman with white hair and a man with a beard. Pretty sure I remember them saying that the First Men used to sacrifice people to the Old Gods. They used swords made of bronze, which is the only indication that it might be that. Bran was tripping out, waaaay back in the past. If/When Winds of Winter comes out it'll be very interesting to see what Bran stumbles across in his visions.
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Jul 17, 2011 11:38
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NihilCredo posted:About Arya's assassination: where is it said that the Faceless Men's coins are poisonous? I must have glazed over that. It isn't. We do know however that there are people in the temple of black and white who work with poisons all day and that Arya has been training with poisons. It's not exactly a stretch to assume that Arya poisoned the coin, or had access to such.
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Jul 17, 2011 11:47
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NihilCredo posted:About Arya's assassination: where is it said that the Faceless Men's coins are poisonous? I must have glazed over that. I assumed she coated it with poison herself, rather than it being standard.
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Jul 17, 2011 11:47
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NihilCredo posted:About Arya's assassination: where is it said that the Faceless Men's coins are poisonous? I must have glazed over that. They're not poisonous are they? I took it to mean that she gave him the false coin so that whoever he did business with would be paid in false coinage, realise it and kill him for it. Thereby killing him with no attachment to the Faceless Men. It's how J'hagen killed the people Arya wanted dead as I recall (having one of them mauled by dogs etc.)
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Jul 17, 2011 11:48
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Silas the Mariner posted:They're not poisonous are they? I took it to mean that she gave him the false coin so that whoever he did business with would be paid in false coinage, realise it and kill him for it. Thereby killing him with no attachment to the Faceless Men. It wasn't the man she was killing she switched coins with, it was the person dealing with him. She switches the coins, random guy gives poisoned coin(s) to the guy who needs killing, he bites it to make sure it's real (as she has previously noted him doing), dies from poison. edit: also blatantly stealing this from another forum because it pretty much sums up why i'm not too disappointed in the Meereen storyline quote:While some people were frustrated by the Dany storyline, I think it's actually put everything together. There's going to be a massive battle at Meereen that will involve Victarion attacking from the sea (possibly using the horn to get Viseryion and Rhaegon to fight for him), Barristan sallying forth from the city, Tyrion/Second Sons/Tattered Prince and some of the other mercenaries turning on the Yunkai, and Dany arriving at the head of a Dothraki khalassar. At the end of the day, Dany will have a massive army, a massive fleet to carry it, [and] dragons she can control With the important addition that not only might she arrive with a khalasar, she might even realise that she has dragons that she's willing to use. Of course almost none of this is guaranteed knowing GURM, but it's plausible enough that I'm not losing any sleep over where Dany's last chapter leaves off. Bran on the other hand feels like his storyline is missing a chapter. hampig fucked around with this message at 12:00 on Jul 17, 2011 |
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Jul 17, 2011 11:51
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hampig posted:It wasn't the man she was killing she switched coins with, it was the person dealing with him. She switches the coins, random guy gives poisoned coin(s) to the guy who needs killing, he bites it to make sure it's real (as she has previously noted him doing), dies from poison. Ohh I see. Thanks for clearing that up!
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Jul 17, 2011 11:55
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hampig posted:If you haven't read the old books recently and can't remember stuff like this fair enough, but it's safe to say that in the first 3 books (including Storm, which everyone agrees is badass) there are shitloads of cliffhangers, not just at the end, and plenty of significant stuff happens offscreen (one of the biggest advantages of the POV structure, and easily the thing that rewards careful readers/rereads the most). It has been been a while so maybe I'm not being completely fair. Youre right that it might have to do with how many plot threads are dangling and most are fairly important (also bring split into two books), and so the way its put together doesn't feel like a cohesive whole. And who knows when the next part will come. GoT was a lot more localized in scope so I think it works better at the individual book level. Although to me AFFC/ADWD doesnt feel like Wheel of Time books 7-9 filler because there is a sense of importance to most of the chapters and you can actually see the effect on the characters and the world. Brienne might be pushing the limit though in a plot sense because of the utter lack of tension. hampig posted:I read Jon's story at least a little differently. As long as he acted in the interests of the Night's Watch, he could make drastic changes, he could make bad decisions and his people would grudgingly fall into line. Then he discards his flimsy shield of honor, and the people around him no longer see any reason to put up with it. I think he was doing just fine, making decisions where the none of them were easy, changing enough that the Watch stands a fighting chance at having some warning of the Others. But after asking for the trust of everyone who stood for him and followed him, he stands up and announces he plans to break his oath, for real this time. I find it very hard to defend. That last decision seemed kind of out of character for Jon. Of all the things hes faced, this is what makes him break his neutrality and oath? The letter basically says Ramsay doesnt have Arya so its not like he is.going to save her. I'm sure the wildlings would go to rescue Mance anyway so Jon didn't really need to go himself. hampig posted:That's the luxury of having dragons, provided you actually remember that you are Mother of Dragons. Lucky bitch. I hope Vicky jacks those dragons soon. Summer Islanders are sweet too. Tall Trees Town, swan ships, sweet rear end bows... where are the islands though? And Ibben? All they seem to do though is whale.
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Jul 17, 2011 11:57
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Jaqen kills Pate with a poisoned coin. No idea how he kills the other guys in Harrenhall. "A coin of ours" seems more a euphemism for a poisoned one, than that all coins of the Faceless Men are poisoned.
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Jul 17, 2011 11:59
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Show news: Now they just need to confirm that we are getting The Bear and Maiden Fair and the show will be perfect 
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Jul 17, 2011 13:23
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Kainser posted:Show news: I've heard that a few show crew members have verified that thing Tyrion was whistling in one episode was The Bear and the Maiden Fair. This is the hearsayest-hearsay, though, so. Grain of salt.
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Jul 17, 2011 13:33
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OperaMouse posted:Jaqen kills Pate with a poisoned coin. No idea how he kills the other guys in Harrenhall.
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Jul 17, 2011 13:33
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bigmcgaffney posted:That last decision seemed kind of out of character for Jon. Of all the things hes faced, this is what makes him break his neutrality and oath? The letter basically says Ramsay doesnt have Arya so its not like he is.going to save her. I'm sure the wildlings would go to rescue Mance anyway so Jon didn't really need to go himself. I didn't get this either. Jon has spent his entire time on the Wall obeying his vows and following his oath, even when it required that he join the Wildlings for awhile. He held on to the Wall through Ned, Robb, Bran & Rickon, Sansa, and Arya all dying. One letter labeled Bastard from a crazy motherfucker that just took over Winterfell is all it takes to rile him up? I very much enjoyed the book. It's easy to pick apart stuff you don't like because we're all impatient for the "good poo poo" to start happening. I spent the whole book waiting for Dany to start paying attention to her loving dragons, thinking that she must know that's the only reason she's not being enslaved and raped. It never happens, but all of the bullshit led to her and Drogon getting some private time, which will hopefully force a change of perspective on her. Other than it being used to grind salt into Cersei's wounds, I didn't see a point for the single Jaime/Brienne chapter at all. I'm glad we know she's alive, but I didn't really expect to get any closure on that anyway, so it showing up in this book feels off. Tyrion's chapters are just....gently caress. They started so great. Tyrion is at his best when he's using his wit to overcome people that obviously underestimate him, and the first half of the book feels spot on. Up to the point where Penny shows up and then he's a slave, I was all in. After that, I felt like we were just spinning our wheels so GRRM could get him back to "power", in this case meaning he's a sell sword that owes a fuckload of god to his company. (side note: why does Tyrion think that he'll ever, ever have control of Casterly Rock? He's well known in Westeros as a kinslayer, kingslayer, and all around Bad Dude, who would led him be a lord? Even the Targs have reason to hate the dude, just because of his last name.) Going back to Jon, I couldn't believe the poo poo he was having to hear about the Wildings. It's obvious that Westeros, and the Wall in particular, are going to need fighting people to hold against the Others. Why don't the other Crows see the obvious? Call a meeting already. "Look y'all, no one likes this, but we gotta get these castles manned if we're gonna fight off dead people and weird supernatural creatures." The R'Hollor stuff gets very, very old to me. I won't be surprised to find out that the "other that shouldn't be named" (or whatever) is actually controlling all of those Red Priests and the visions they're seeing in the fire. I have more thoughts but I need to let them settle I think. I'm very, very glad that I reread the entire series before getting into ADWD, though. I was a bit bored at the beginning of the first one, but before long I was addicted like usual. AFFC is still the low-point in the series, but now that the fifth book is here and it uses some of that world-building, it makes sense. Six years for the next one, right?  Edit: people really believe Jon's dead? There have been a LOT of chapters that end with the death of the POV character, only to have the character awaken, wounded, in a totally different environment. Theon comes to mind off the top of my head, as does Catelyn. I fully expect to see Jon in the next books. EC fucked around with this message at 15:02 on Jul 17, 2011 |
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Jul 17, 2011 14:57
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The really hosed thing is that Jon actually did have that meeteing where he told his advisors" look assholes, every dead wildling means one more loving snow zombie, so chill the gently caress out about it and let's do our job defending this bitchin wall together". It served to change absolutely no ones minds. Say what you will about the Bastard of Bolton, dude sure does know how to write an intimidating as gently caress letter. I must have read it 4 times.
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Jul 17, 2011 15:31
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EC posted:Edit: people really believe Jon's dead? There have been a LOT of chapters that end with the death of the POV character, only to have the character awaken, wounded, in a totally different environment. Theon comes to mind off the top of my head, as does Catelyn. I fully expect to see Jon in the next books. I don't think anyone here thinks Jon is actually dead (or at least not permanently). They're just referring to the only important character to actually "die" in this series in a long time. Also, I agree that the Night's Watch was loving retarded for not letting Wildlings who would WILLINGLY fight for them help man the walls. God, what a bunch of loving morons. I think it was GURM's way of doing commentary on illegal immigration or something or who knows what the gently caress.
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Jul 17, 2011 16:16
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Am I imagining it or was there an Arya chapter where she's learning about poisons from the waif? There was one poison that would make the victim go in a berserker rage and attack the nearest thing, I was pretty sure that it was what Jaqen used on Weese's dog. I can't find it in DWD though, and it doesn't seem to be in FFC.
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Jul 17, 2011 16:23
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So, can Drowned Men blow the dragon horn without dying, since they are already "dead," or is the Drowned God just all full of poo poo?
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Jul 17, 2011 16:23
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Brannock posted:Am I imagining it or was there an Arya chapter where she's learning about poisons from the waif? There was one poison that would make the victim go in a berserker rage and attack the nearest thing, I was pretty sure that it was what Jaqen used on Weese's dog. That was in FFC, yes.
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Jul 17, 2011 16:24
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The whole Jon death is cheap. Makes no sense for Bowen et. al to kill him then, and the rationale for them doing it is stupid. Winning over the wildings makes sense, preventing the creation of more zombies makes sense, killing your sworn brother surrounded by people who will likely seek vengeance is not rational. Why couldn't they wait until he leaves with the wildings, and hopes he dies? Ugh, I really wish I never started this series. Having to wait another 3+ years for the next book, to resolve any of dozens of cliffhangers is frustrating, especially after having to wait a decade or so.
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Jul 17, 2011 16:25
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quote:
who is gonna seek vengeance? by that point Jon has sent away everyone who trusts and respects him. and Bowen Marsh just wants nothing to change. Not only doesn't he want wildlings on the wall, he even gets pissed when Jon promotes lowborn dudes to positions higher than Bowen thinks they deserve. If he was in charge, they'd just close up the wall, change nothing, and stick their fingers and their eyes saying "lalala" while the Others mass up. the others may not be that extreme, but they're not far off--for the Night's Watch, rules and tradition are everything, the wildlings have been their enemy forever, and Jon is seeking to upend all that. No matter how good his reasons, thats gonna make some enemies, and though Jon makes smart moves in some ways one really, really dumb move he makes is not surrounding himself with close allies.
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Jul 17, 2011 16:33
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SelfOM posted:The whole Jon death is cheap. Makes no sense for Bowen et. al to kill him then, and the rationale for them doing it is stupid. Winning over the wildings makes sense, preventing the creation of more zombies makes sense, killing your sworn brother surrounded by people who will likely seek vengeance is not rational. Why couldn't they wait until he leaves with the wildings, and hopes he dies? The Boltons and King's Landing wouldn't look kindly on the Night's Watch if the Lord Commander killed Ramsay. e; They were probably planning it since before he announced that though, so who knows. Kainser fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Jul 17, 2011 |
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Jul 17, 2011 16:37
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quote:So, can Drowned Men blow the dragon horn without dying, since they are already "dead," or is the Drowned God just all full of poo poo? Maybe Damphair (though I really hope not, cause Damphair is the worst) but most of the "drowned men" seem to be basically guys who either got cpr (if they were really "drowned") or who got baptized (if they're one of the nobles Damphair has contempt for). As for actual dead people, Lady Stoneheart can't breathe, neither does Coldhands. My money is on Jon once he gets rezzed. quote:Bran is boring and static at the moment The Bran chapters in this book are easily the best chapters he's ever had. Actually meeting Bloodraven>>>3-eyed Crow dreams, and Coldhands is infinitely cooler than the likes of Osha or the Walders.
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Jul 17, 2011 16:38
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"The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half- seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him." Jon will warg into ghost, then somehow get brought back to life, when he'll become Azor Ahai. Jon even had a dream about fighting things that climbed the wall like spiders while he was dressed in this black ice armor with a red sword.
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Jul 17, 2011 16:38
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Kainser posted:They are doing it because he's riding away to deal with Ramsay, since that violates the 'take no part in wars'-clause in the Night's Watch which is pretty serious. I got the impression that it was something they've been conspiring to do for a while because of Jon's constant spurning of them. Jon's declaration of war against the Boltons might have been what triggered them to finally do it, but I think they were going to kill him no matter what. Also there's definitely some kind of magic afoot with the Drowned God. There's no way Damphair has successfully resurrected literally hundreds of people with CPR just by sheer luck.
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Jul 17, 2011 16:40
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literallyincredible posted:who is gonna seek vengeance? by that point Jon has sent away everyone who trusts and respects him. I can't imagine all those wilding swords that just pledged to take Winterfell have left already without Jon. Also the Flint's and the Norrey's are still at Castleblack, if I recall. Tormund giantsbane is still there. It just seems like a cheap plot ploy to get Jon killed.
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Jul 17, 2011 16:40
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I can understand Bowen Marsh and the others wanting to kill Jon. It's pretty stupid from our perspective, but they've all spent years battling the Wildlings and hate them pretty hardcore, and can't get over that even in the face of oncoming disaster. What I can't understand is why they chose to do it THEN. They spend the entire book wringing their hands over letting armed Wildlings through the wall and then decide to kill the guy who allowed it, and who the Wildlings grudgingly respect, right after he gives a huge speech stoking them to violence. I don't see how enraging four thousand Wildlings who are right loving there ends in any way but disaster for the Night's Watch. I mean, what's step two, telling them all to get out? Let's recall how Castle Black is an indefensible ruin and the Watch barely held off a group of raiders in Storm of Swords.
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Jul 17, 2011 16:44
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Perhaps I don't know good literature, but I found the Bran chapters boring. I think it's because I like this series for its character interactions rather than the mythology, and oddly enough for a fantasy series, don't enjoy the parts with overt fantastical elements. I really can't explain why but I think my favorite chapters were Connington's. I guess I'm just eager to see where that story goes.
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Jul 17, 2011 16:44
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I'm eager to see what will happen to Aegon to make him less of a perfect prince e; Were there any hints in the books before Dance that Aegon might have survived? The only thing I remember is GRRM basically going "WELL, I CAN'T CONFIRM OR DENY THAT" on a con or something when someone asked him if Rhaegar's kids really were dead. Kainser fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Jul 17, 2011 |
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Jul 17, 2011 16:48
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Aurubin posted:Perhaps I don't know good literature, but I found the Bran chapters boring. I think it's because I like this series for its character interactions rather than the mythology, and oddly enough for a fantasy series, don't enjoy the parts with overt fantastical elements. YVMV of course, but I don't know how anyone could fail to enjoy the first couple Bran chapters where they're walking around with Coldhands, and then have to walk across that hill to the cave and it turns out the ground is actually just zombies. That was probably the best "supernatural horror" segment the books have ever had, and Coldhands is the poo poo. quote:I really can't explain why but I think my favorite chapters were Connington's. I guess I'm just eager to see where that story goes. I dunno about favorite, but Connington is cool as hell. I didn't like him in Tyrion's POV because Tyrion keeps comparing him to his dad like a whiny teenager, but once we got in Connington's head, the dude owns. Between Barristan and Connington, I've begun to suspect that Martin is at his very best writing badass old men.
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Jul 17, 2011 16:51
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SelfOM posted:The whole Jon death is cheap. Makes no sense for Bowen et. al to kill him then, and the rationale for them doing it is stupid. Winning over the wildings makes sense, preventing the creation of more zombies makes sense, killing your sworn brother surrounded by people who will likely seek vengeance is not rational. Why couldn't they wait until he leaves with the wildings, and hopes he dies? Jon tried to use the Night's Watch to meddle in the affairs of the realm by riding to Winterfell to rescue "Arya" - and he skirted the line already before. I can see their point, especially if they think Bolton has won and the NW would be in deep poo poo with him if Jon attacks him, but two Lord Commanders killed by their own men in a row nearly qualifies as tradition.
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Jul 17, 2011 16:51
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quote:I'm eager to see what will happen to Aegon to make him less of a perfect prince Aegon is nowhere near a perfect prince and its pretty obvious throughout Dance. He's pretty and well-educated and a good swordsmen, but he has zero political or military acumen and its obvious that for all Varys insists Aegon doesn't see the throne as his "right", that the dude is seriously entitled. The scene where Tyrion owns him at cyvasse while explaining all the flaws in his plan of action, and its obvious Aegon hasn't even thought about this poo poo, is really illuminating.
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Jul 17, 2011 16:53
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EC posted:I didn't get this either. Jon has spent his entire time on the Wall obeying his vows and following his oath, even when it required that he join the Wildlings for awhile. He held on to the Wall through Ned, Robb, Bran & Rickon, Sansa, and Arya all dying. One letter labeled Bastard from a crazy motherfucker that just took over Winterfell is all it takes to rile him up? It's true that the letter states that Ramsay doesn't have Arya, but it does say that he lost her and that Stannis is destroyed...so where is she? That's probably what Jon is thinking: his little sister escaped from the most psychotic person in Westeros outside of GREGOR, but now's she wandering around the North in the snow with said psycho hunting her. Of course he's going to go rescue her if he can. It's not at all like the other situations. Someone he loves is in extreme and urgent need of help, he's pretty much the only person who can help her, and she's really close. Ned: way way way south in King's Landing, no way for him to actually get to Joffrey to kill him. Besides, the horse has left the barn: Ned was already dead. No rescuing possible. Robb: Same as Ned, pretty much. Bran and Rickon: he was with the wildlings when they "died" I'm pretty sure, and by the time he heard about it the responsible party (Theon) was already killed/captured. Nothing for Jon to do at that point. Sansa: pretty sure he never thought she was dead? Arya: he thought she probably died in KL with Ned, so same thing applies.
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Jul 17, 2011 16:59
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Kainser posted:I'm eager to see what will happen to Aegon to make him less of a perfect prince There is a theory I've seen going around that Aegon is actually Illyrio's son. I'm not sure if I buy it but that does explain why Illyrio and Varys have a high stake in getting him crowned beyond "good of the realm" and "rightful heir"
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Jul 17, 2011 17:01
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Christ Pseudoscientist posted:There is a theory I've seen going around that Aegon is actually Illyrio's son. I'm not sure if I buy it but that does explain why Illyrio and Varys have a high stake in getting him crowned beyond "good of the realm" and "rightful heir" If Lemore is really Ashara Dayne then she can probably verify that it is really Aegon. Unless she is in on the scam.
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Jul 17, 2011 17:19
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I think he is Aegon, but I can't see how he can not die.
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Jul 17, 2011 17:21
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