A Song of Ice and Fire - Spoiler-Free Book Discussion

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > A Song of Ice and Fire - Spoiler-Free Book Discussion

Azure_Horizon: Mar 27, 2010; by Reene

Finished ADWD just now. I loved it just as much as Feast if not a bit more, for all the craziness.

The worldbuilding has done so much good for this series and I'm glad for the breather after ASOS. Plus, Martin's prose in these two books is so far beyond the first three that it reaches phenomenal quality.

# ? Jul 17, 2011 02:00

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# ? Jun 11, 2024 17:40

bub spank: Feb 1, 2005; the THRILL

Did anyone else get annoyed when GRRM started using "whilst" and "amongst" in AFFC after using "while" and "among" in the first 3 books? "While" is innocuous and its use isn't really noticeable, while "whilst" just kind of stands out more and makes the writing somehow awkward. It's most noticeable when he's writing dialogue for some of the outlaws that highlights their lowborn slang, but then shoves a "whilst" into the middle of it that you'd expect from some of the pretentious dudes in the court at King's Landing.

I know that it's a really minor thing, but for whatever reason it irked me a bit, and I think it's because SA has ruined that word for me. 've become so used to terrible writers on SA using "whilst" to add some pomp to their posts, when it just comes across as weird or pretentious, so I can't really read the word anymore without imagining some guy posting a boring, hard-to-read 10 paragraph story.

bub spank fucked around with this message at 07:53 on Jul 17, 2011

# ? Jul 17, 2011 07:48

Hedrigall: Mar 27, 2008; by vyelkin

burf posted:

Did anyone else get annoyed when GRRM started using "whilst" and "amongst" in AFFC after using "while" and "among" in the first 3 books? "While" is innocuous and its use isn't really noticeable, while "whilst" just kind of stands out more and makes the writing somehow awkward. It's most noticeable when he's writing dialogue for some of the outlaws that highlights their lowborn slang, but then shoves a "whilst" into the middle of it that you'd expect from some of the pretentious dudes in the court at King's Landing.

I know that it's a really minor thing, but for whatever reason it irked me a bit, and I think it's because SA has ruined that word for me. 've become so used to terrible writers on SA using "whilst" to add some pomp to their posts, when it just comes across as weird or pretentious, so I can't really read the word anymore without imagining some guy posting a boring, hard-to-read 10 paragraph story.

Whilst I agree with you,

# ? Jul 17, 2011 08:07

Conduit for Sale!: Apr 17, 2007

burf posted:

Did anyone else get annoyed when GRRM started using "whilst" and "amongst" in AFFC after using "while" and "among" in the first 3 books? "While" is innocuous and its use isn't really noticeable, while "whilst" just kind of stands out more and makes the writing somehow awkward. It's most noticeable when he's writing dialogue for some of the outlaws that highlights their lowborn slang, but then shoves a "whilst" into the middle of it that you'd expect from some of the pretentious dudes in the court at King's Landing.

I know that it's a really minor thing, but for whatever reason it irked me a bit, and I think it's because SA has ruined that word for me. 've become so used to terrible writers on SA using "whilst" to add some pomp to their posts, when it just comes across as weird or pretentious, so I can't really read the word anymore without imagining some guy posting a boring, hard-to-read 10 paragraph story.

It's all I can do to agree with you.

# ? Jul 17, 2011 09:09

bigmcgaffney: Apr 19, 2009

I must needs agree with you on this point, serjeant.

# ? Jul 17, 2011 09:59

regulargonzalez: Aug 18, 2006; UNGH LET ME LICK THOSE BOOTS DADDY HULU YES YES GIVE ME ALL THE CORPORATE CUMMIES ADBLOCK USERS DESERVE THE DEATH PENALTY, DON'T THEY DADDY?
WHEN THE RICH GET RICHER I GET HORNIER

Words are wind says my nuncle.

# ? Jul 17, 2011 10:11

dumb brunette: Mar 17, 2009; I admire man's ability to see beauty in everything! Even a flame!

bigmcgaffney posted:

I must needs agree with you on this point, serjeant.

I'd give half a groat for the insight, were I not too busy eating mine neeps.

# ? Jul 17, 2011 13:37

Brodeurs Nanny: Nov 2, 2006

This post is as useless as nipples on a breastplate!

# ? Jul 17, 2011 14:58

Brodeurs Nanny: Nov 2, 2006

Seriously though, it's almost as if Martin chose 30 hammy literary devices in advance to wildly overuse to the point of being annoying. He is... Well, not a good writer. Even his similes are pretty terrible. As fickle as a woman oh ho ho

# ? Jul 17, 2011 14:59

Ross: May 25, 2001; German Moses

I'm reading ASoS now, about 25% through. It seems like A Feast for Crows is generally considered the weakest of the series so far. Do people just dislike the lack of certain main character's perspectives or is the book itself poorly written / uneventful / whatever else compared to the first three?

# ? Jul 17, 2011 15:27

CORN NOG: Sep 25, 2003; eh, better than wadded beef i guess?

regulargonzalez posted:

Words are wind says my nuncle.

I've told you this four-and-twenty times

# ? Jul 17, 2011 15:27

DirtyRobot: Dec 15, 2003; it was a normally happy sunny day... but Dirty Robot was dirty

i am not so sure posted:

Seriously though, it's almost as if Martin chose 30 hammy literary devices in advance to wildly overuse to the point of being annoying. He is... Well, not a good writer. Even his similes are pretty terrible. As fickle as a woman oh ho ho

Well, when you get down to the sentence level, yeah, there's not much there that's very interesting. A lot of it is quite mediocre. But he spins a good yarn, he subverts conventions, and he develops (most) characters beyond simple types, which is far more than can be said of most fantasy writers.

# ? Jul 17, 2011 15:39

LooseChanj: Feb 17, 2006; Logicaaaaaaaaal!

Holy cow, a page that isn't >50% black bars in the non-spoiler thread! :aaaaa:

# ? Jul 17, 2011 15:40

9-Volt Assault: Jan 27, 2007; Beter twee tetten in de hand dan tien op de vlucht.

Luckily its all about what a terrible writer GURM is. :allears:

# ? Jul 17, 2011 16:33

literallyincredible: Oct 23, 2008

quote:

I'm reading ASoS now, about 25% through. It seems like A Feast for Crows is generally considered the weakest of the series so far. Do people just dislike the lack of certain main character's perspectives or is the book itself poorly written / uneventful / whatever else compared to the first three?

Feast has some good poo poo, but a number of the new POVs are pretty weak both as characters and as plotlines, and its pretty short on actual events, though there is some significant character development and there's a lot of setup going on for important poo poo down the line. I enjoyed it the first time through, but the reread was a slog, which wasn't true for his other books.

Dance is much better than Feast, not just in that it has more good POVs, but more poo poo happening. Not SoS-levels of poo poo happening, but a lot more than Feast.

# ? Jul 17, 2011 16:41

lapse: Jun 27, 2004

Ross posted:

I'm reading ASoS now, about 25% through. It seems like A Feast for Crows is generally considered the weakest of the series so far. Do people just dislike the lack of certain main character's perspectives or is the book itself poorly written / uneventful / whatever else compared to the first three?

It's fine if you're just bowling through the series. The only story that seemed overdone to me was Brienne, everything else was good.

# ? Jul 17, 2011 17:31

regulargonzalez: Aug 18, 2006; UNGH LET ME LICK THOSE BOOTS DADDY HULU YES YES GIVE ME ALL THE CORPORATE CUMMIES ADBLOCK USERS DESERVE THE DEATH PENALTY, DON'T THEY DADDY?
WHEN THE RICH GET RICHER I GET HORNIER

Ross posted:

I'm reading ASoS now, about 25% through. It seems like A Feast for Crows is generally considered the weakest of the series so far. Do people just dislike the lack of certain main character's perspectives or is the book itself poorly written / uneventful / whatever else compared to the first three?

Part of the problem is that ASOS's second half is non-stop, action packed, holy-poo poo-did-that-just-happen types of stuff, and the previous two books also had lots of great action scenes, and AFFC is almost purely politics and seeing the fallout from books 1-3. There are some great storylines in AFFC, but there's no equivalent to, say, ACOK's Blackwater Bay. That said, I think it gets a bit of a bad rap.

# ? Jul 17, 2011 19:57

Vivek: Jun 27, 2007

colonel_korn posted:

One thing that was interesting when re-reading AGoT is that there seems to be a lot of fuss made over where Robert Arryn was going to be fostered, before Lysa took him back to the Eyrie. King Robert mentions to Ned at the start of the book that he was going to send him to Casterly Rock, but later on both Lysa's maester at the Eyrie and Walder Frey insist to Catelyn that he was going to be fostered with Stannis at Dragonstone. Stannis says the same thing in the prologue of ACoK.

I suppose the mundane explanation is that Jon was going to send him to Dragonstone, then once he died, Cersei convinced King Robert to send him to Casterly Rock instead, at which point Lysa fled the city with him. It just seems that there's a lot of emphasis put on it in the first book, like it's this big mystery or something. I thought at first that it might be some kind of early indication that Lysa was being dishonest (foreshadowing the reveal at the end of ASoS that she killed Jon) but that doesn't really make sense since it was King Robert who said he was going to be fostered at Casterly Rock, not Lysa. It almost feels like it's a plot thread that GRRM decided to abandon midway through.

(Spoilers for books 1-3 in the above post)

I know this is from a while back, but I wanted to comment about it. (spoilers up to the end ASOS). I think the point is that we learn that Robert was going to be sent away before Jon Arryn died. Look at this quote:

quote:

You may not.� Her aunt�s breath smelled of wine. �If you were anyone else, I would banish you. Send you
down to Lord Nestor at the Gates of the Moon, or back to the Fingers. How would you like to spend your life
on that bleak shore, surrounded by slatterns and sheep pellets? That was what my father meant for Petyr.
Everyone thought it was because of that stupid duel with Brandon Stark, but that wasn�t so. Father said I ought
to thank the gods that so great a lord as Jon Arryn was willing to take me soiled, but I knew it was only for the
swords. I had to marry Jon, or my father would have turned me out as he did his brother, but it was Petyr I was
meant for. I am telling you all this so you will understand how much we love each other, how long we have
suffered and dreamed of one another. We made a baby together, a precious little baby.� Lysa put her hands flat
against her belly, as if the child was still there. �When they stole him from me, I made a promise to myself that
I would never let it happen again. Jon wished to send my sweet Robert to Dragonstone, and that sot of a king
would have given him to Cersei Lannister, but I never let them . . . no more than I�ll let you steal my Petyr
Littlefinger. Do you hear me, Alayne or Sansa or whatever you call yourself? Do you hear what I am telling
you?�

Part of the reason that Lysa killed Jon is because he was going to send their son away, and learning that Jon was going to foster Robert at Dragonstone is an early hint at that.

# ? Jul 17, 2011 20:31

Kainser: Apr 27, 2010; O'er the sea from the north
there sails a ship
With the people of Hel
at the helm stands Loki
After the wolf
do wild men follow

A Stannis-fostered Robert Arryn would have been amazing.

# ? Jul 17, 2011 20:36

Bananaquiter: Aug 20, 2008; Ron's not here.

I'm over half way through Feast and

Why did you do that thing Arya, that was stupid. I don't even understand why she would think that was a good idea, did she honestly just need a third story to tell the priest?

Now I'm mad.

# ? Jul 17, 2011 20:49

rejutka: May 28, 2004; by zen death robot

Charlie Mopps posted:

Luckily its all about what a terrible writer GURM is.

This reminds me, I noticed just the one instance in the first book of someone actually drinking water as opposed to wine, beer, more wine, Jesus Christ so much wine. He gets better over the next couple of books but people in Westeros must have some pretty hosed up livers.

# ? Jul 17, 2011 21:42

SmugDogMillionaire: Oct 27, 2009; by T. Fine

rejutka posted:

This reminds me, I noticed just the one instance in the first book of someone actually drinking water as opposed to wine, beer, more wine, Jesus Christ so much wine. He gets better over the next couple of books but people in Westeros must have some pretty hosed up livers.

This is pretty true to life. Prior to modern water sanitation, people would drink beer and wine almost exclusively. It was alot less alcoholic then modern stuff though.

# ? Jul 17, 2011 22:04

Conduit for Sale!: Apr 17, 2007

rejutka posted:

This reminds me, I noticed just the one instance in the first book of someone actually drinking water as opposed to wine, beer, more wine, Jesus Christ so much wine. He gets better over the next couple of books but people in Westeros must have some pretty hosed up livers.

People really did drink like that in the Middle Ages. Drinking water was basically asking for some disease or infection of some sort, so everybody drank alcohol, albeit heavily watered down alcohol.

# ? Jul 17, 2011 22:06

rejutka: May 28, 2004; by zen death robot

Huh. There's me wearing orthopedic shoes then.

# ? Jul 17, 2011 22:08

bigmcgaffney: Apr 19, 2009

Black tar rum, baby, that poo poo aint watered down, tis the devils drink

# ? Jul 18, 2011 00:20

HeroOfTheRevolution: Apr 26, 2008

Jakabite posted:

About 26% of the way through and Baby Aegon! That was a big surprise. In fact that was an all round awesome chapter.

I loved how bizarrely nonchalant the whole reveal was.

It's early in the book and it's a huge revelation, but it's not an end-of-chapter cliffhanger and no one denies it or anything.

# ? Jul 18, 2011 02:59

Capsaicin: Nov 17, 2004; broof roof roof

Quick question, does anyone know which book/chapter-ish the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree is in?

# ? Jul 18, 2011 04:39

Hedrigall: Mar 27, 2008; by vyelkin

Capsaicin posted:

Quick question, does anyone know which book/chapter-ish the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree is in?

http://towerofthehand.com/books/103/025/index.html

Bran ch. 2 in ASOS.

Goddamn, this chapter plus the one where he goes to the Nightfort, remembers all the creepy stories from Old Nan, then meets Sam pretty much make his chapters the best part of ASOS for me :h:

Go read the Knight of the Laughing Tree story again, then use that link I posted to find out all the references.

edit: Also, when I first read this chapter I was like :what:

what is this story they're telling, come on, get back to the plot. And then halfway through I realised what it was about, and I was like :aaaaa:

Hedrigall fucked around with this message at 04:50 on Jul 18, 2011

# ? Jul 18, 2011 04:42

Lawnie: Sep 6, 2006; That is my helmet
Give it back
you are a lion
^{It doesn't even fit}; Grimey Drawer

Dance page 704 spoilers:

holy gently caress dany riding drogon holy poo poo so cool

# ? Jul 18, 2011 06:02

A Typical Goon: Feb 25, 2011

i am not so sure posted:

Seriously though, it's almost as if Martin chose 30 hammy literary devices in advance to wildly overuse to the point of being annoying. He is... Well, not a good writer. Even his similes are pretty terrible. As fickle as a woman oh ho ho

30 hammy literary devices or close enough to make no matter.

# ? Jul 18, 2011 06:09

regulargonzalez: Aug 18, 2006; UNGH LET ME LICK THOSE BOOTS DADDY HULU YES YES GIVE ME ALL THE CORPORATE CUMMIES ADBLOCK USERS DESERVE THE DEATH PENALTY, DON'T THEY DADDY?
WHEN THE RICH GET RICHER I GET HORNIER

Bananaquiter posted:

I'm over half way through Feast and

Why did you do that thing Arya, that was stupid. I don't even understand why she would think that was a good idea, did she honestly just need a third story to tell the priest?

Now I'm mad.

She had her own justification for it, but in ADWD (not really a spoiler) the kindly man calls her on it

# ? Jul 18, 2011 06:36

pigdog: Apr 23, 2004; by Smythe

Gangringo posted:

My "Dance" reactions:
.
.
.
.

It felt like killing Jon wasn't just breaking with genre but being actively anti-genre for no real reason. We lost the only likable character I'd ever want to read a perspective chapter about currently in place I really want to read more about. I get why he killed the character but it provoked exactly the wrong emotional reaction. I wasn't sad that Jon died, I was just pissed off that GRRM killed him so randomly.

I actually felt relief when they killed Jon. Not just because he wasn't the most likable character in the book/show, but because he and everyone on the Wall was well and truly hosed anyway. Everything will be chaos after him, and screw it... let the Boltons and Lannisters deal with the White Walkers and all that mess.

Besides, regaining Arya and Brienne well outweighs losing Jon.

PS. who's to say Jon stays dead with Melisandre in da house.

# ? Jul 18, 2011 11:23

Gangringo: Jul 22, 2007; In the first age, in the first battle, when the shadows first lengthened, one sat.

He chose the path of perpetual contentment.

pigdog posted:

PS. who's to say Jon stays dead with Melisandre in da house.

Yeah, I realized that soon after I wrote it, still (Dragons spoilers) no matter what it takes our viewpoint away from the wall. Even if Jon comes back there's no way he's going to be able to hang out around Castle Black. The whole Others vs. Night's Watch confrontation has been building up since the very first chapter of the very first book. If it all happens "off camera" it's not being bold or defying convention, it's just being a cock-tease and poor narrative. This is of course all conjecture, maybe GRRM has it all planned out and will dazzle us with his magic.

# ? Jul 18, 2011 11:43

Ross: May 25, 2001; German Moses

I'm 30% in to ASoS and nothing grand has happened yet. When does the :black101:

start?

# ? Jul 18, 2011 12:16

hampig: Feb 11, 2004; ...curioser and curioser...

Gangringo posted:

The whole Others vs. Night's Watch confrontation has been building up since the very first chapter of the very first book. If it all happens "off camera" it's not being bold or defying convention, it's just being a cock-tease and poor narrative. This is of course all conjecture, maybe GRRM has it all planned out and will dazzle us with his magic.[/spoiler]

The biggest problem I've seen with the Others vs Night Watch overarching plot is that a malignant force of nature doesn't really have a place in the narrative. In order to keep the conflict in line with the rest of the series what he really needs to do is get some people in on the side of the Others. Some of the tastiest hints we have gotten are those that are setting up Bran (the darkness is your friend etc.) and Arya (servant of the god of death) in opposition to R'hllor, as well as setting up the Maesters against dragons, both of which we assume will be the ultimate weapons against the Others.

# ? Jul 18, 2011 13:18

Kainser: Apr 27, 2010; O'er the sea from the north
there sails a ship
With the people of Hel
at the helm stands Loki
After the wolf
do wild men follow

Ross posted:

I'm 30% in to ASoS and nothing grand has happened yet. When does the start?

Around 55%~ in is the generally accepted point.

# ? Jul 18, 2011 14:15

factorialite: Mar 3, 2008; by Lowtax

pigdog posted:

I actually felt relief when they killed Jon.

PS. who's to say Jon stays dead with Melisandre in da house.

I'm willing to bet that Jon isn't dead, it's usually pretty apparent when a character dies, and even then (Catelyn cough) it doesn't alway stick.

Plus, I'm sure we'll get Tormund Giantsbane as a POV character in Winds, I'd be incredibly shocked if we didn't.

# ? Jul 18, 2011 14:23

Yuran M. Bazil: Jun 20, 2008

I accidentally highlighted a Dance spoiler and literally read three words. The problem is those three words where they killed Jon.
Fucks sake, this is almost as bad as when I was reading the show spoiler thread and came across a list of everyone who died in book 3.

# ? Jul 18, 2011 16:06

9-Volt Assault: Jan 27, 2007; Beter twee tetten in de hand dan tien op de vlucht.

Yuran M. Bazil posted:

I accidentally highlighted a Dance spoiler and literally read three words. The problem is those three words where they killed Jon.
Fucks sake, this is almost as bad as when I was reading the show spoiler thread and came across a list of everyone who died in book 3.

You shouldnt be reading anything about the series until you finished all books.

factorialite posted:

Plus, I'm sure we'll get Tormund Giantsbane as a POV character in Winds, I'd be incredibly shocked if we didn't.[/spoiler]

That would be awesome and just the thing i was hoping for too.

# ? Jul 18, 2011 16:38

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# ? Jun 11, 2024 17:40

bub spank: Feb 1, 2005; the THRILL

Yuran M. Bazil posted:

I accidentally highlighted a Dance spoiler and literally read three words. The problem is those three words where they killed Jon.
Fucks sake, this is almost as bad as when I was reading the show spoiler thread and came across a list of everyone who died in book 3.

I did the same thing

Accidentally scrolled over a spoiler for half a second, but it was enough for me to read the first sentence of the post about what happens to 3 major characters. Stupid me for reading stupid threads when I haven't grabbed DWD yet

# ? Jul 18, 2011 17:01

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