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Robot Karnov posted:
My problem with Kvothe is that he's like an unfunny, unsympathetic Ignatius J. Reilly, but I get the impression the author of the book expects me to find him funny and clever, if that makes sense.
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Jul 15, 2011 22:50
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Ostiosis posted:My problem with Kvothe is that he's like an unfunny, unsympathetic Ignatius J. Reilly, but I get the impression the author of the book expects me to find him funny and clever, if that makes sense. Clever, possibly. Funny, not really. Resourceful, yes. Take for instance that he researched and built his own gram with the help of friends and comes up with money in odd ways.
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Jul 16, 2011 01:36
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pakman posted:Clever, possibly. Funny, not really. Resourceful, yes. Take for instance that he researched and built his own gram with the help of friends and comes up with money in odd ways. I stopped reading after the goony library put down where everyone applauded him, so I could be wrong.
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Jul 16, 2011 01:52
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To be fair, everyone at the University is some variety of goon. Ambrose is a classic right-wing LF troll.
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Jul 16, 2011 02:01
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So, anyone want to take bets on how long till the third book? I for one can't wait for it in 2027.
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Jul 16, 2011 14:21
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Nemesis Of Moles posted:So, anyone want to take bets on how long till the third book? I for one can't wait for it in 2027. 2015. But I've got plenty to read to keep me busy in the meantime. The one I am really worried about is Winds of Winter, I sure hope GRRM doesn't die.  (I also hope he has copius notes)
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Jul 16, 2011 14:36
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He doesn't, although I have a feeling part of his deal with HBO was that he had to tell them how the series would end.
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Jul 16, 2011 16:34
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Nemesis Of Moles posted:So, anyone want to take bets on how long till the third book? I for one can't wait for it in 2027. Hasn't he already written it?
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Jul 16, 2011 16:40
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So I was one of the dudes really making GBS threads on the first of these two books, but for some reason (actually it's because it's up free online somewhere) I tried out the second one. I didn't get all the way through it, and I'm not gonna post much because there's no point making GBS threads up the thread if some people are enjoying it, but I will say this: it is loving hilarious how Rothfuss thinks sex and fighting work in the exact same ridiculous way. I broke the 
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Jul 16, 2011 16:48
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Flatscan posted:Hasn't he already written it? Wait seriously? You mean to say there's a chance I could finish this series before the stars all blink out I really hope the next book is less "I made Prancing Bear Claw but she made Leaping Lion Swipe but I countered with my personal Flamingo's Feint which she fell for then I went into Chipmunks Cowl and well that was that" the battle with the bandits was so much better without having a thousand Special Moves over and over. And less retarded sex scenes please Rothfuss, theres a lad.
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Jul 16, 2011 17:36
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Nemesis Of Moles posted:Wait seriously? You mean to say there's a chance I could finish this series before the stars all blink out I thought I read somewhere that he wrote the whole thing a few years ago is all.
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Jul 16, 2011 17:59
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He claimed to have written them all, but is "re-writing" them (cramming in Auri and Devi) as the series goes along. He gave a "it'll be 2 years time before the third is out" hand-wavey answer a while back, but don't start holding your breath. I have to re-state this, because every time I think about this book it bounces straight to the top of my head. Kvothe breaks a dude's arm because he says something mean and is instantly absolved by all the townsfolk. This is really where it pranced over the line from "harmless enough teenage-wish-fulfilment fantasy" into me watching for a goony bearded figure atop a water tower with a rifle. Yes the applause after he puts bullies in his place is embarrassing enough, and then there's all the clueless hands-down-shorts bullshit about women (he describes himself as a "skilled lover of women" on his own bio literally who would do that?) but that's par for the course in a masturbatory self-insert epic. It crosses a line when he starts immediately forgiving his character for being a sociopath who metes out pretty loving serious violence on a hair trigger because somebody says something off-colour. A broken arm is a big deal nowadays, let alone in Fantasy Land. Evfedu fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Jul 16, 2011 |
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Jul 16, 2011 19:04
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Evfedu posted:He claimed to have written them all, but is "re-writing" them (cramming in Auri and Devi) as the series goes along. He gave a "it'll be 2 years time before the third is out" hand-wavey answer a while back, but don't start holding your breath. Yep, this is basically how I feel about the series, and I couldn't even bother to pick up Wise Man's Fear. Kvothe is just such a drat GBSer. And Denna... I can't even comprehend how somebody could write a character like that.
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Jul 17, 2011 03:15
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Evfedu posted:Kvothe breaks a dude's arm because he says something mean and is instantly absolved by all the townsfolk. It's a good thing that authorial intent doesn't mean much when it comes to interpreting or enjoying a novel then,eh? Read it as an proclamation of everything that is wrong with goonish manchild culture, hate the protagonist for what he represents, if you like. You can still get something from it.
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Jul 17, 2011 03:33
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frozenpeas posted:It's a good thing that authorial intent doesn't mean much when it comes to interpreting or enjoying a novel then,eh? This is both condescending and misleading. "The death of the author" doesn't suggest that we read with an uncritical eye or waste our time reading pap. People have a limited amount of free time, and it's pretty valid for someone to not want to waste their time reading the wish-fulfillment fantasies of someone suffering from a severe case of arrested development. If you want to pull the relativism card, consider that there's a reason that you're posting about this book in particular rather than some random Doctor Who fanfiction. People have limited time & limited bandwidth to devote to reading lovely novels, even if there's some pomo lesson to be gleaned from them.
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Jul 17, 2011 09:02
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Metonymy posted:This is both condescending and misleading. As to your point, Well that would be fine if he hadn't actually read it, but he has presumably spent  and god knows how many hours reading it so he might as well take whatever he can from the experience.The death of the author has nothing to do with quality and literally nothing to do with how you determine whether a book is good or not. Any text can is worthy of critical analysis regardless of quality. Have you read Mythologies? He spends quite a lot of time talking about soap powders and wrestling.
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Jul 17, 2011 10:09
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frozenpeas posted:It's a good thing that authorial intent doesn't mean much when it comes to interpreting or enjoying a novel then,eh? quote:Read it as an proclamation of everything that is wrong with goonish manchild culture, hate the protagonist for what he represents, if you like. You can still get something from it.
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Jul 17, 2011 14:28
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^^^^^^^ I'm sorry, I don't really understand what you're getting at, let alone what that has anything to do with what I wrote. Spermanent Record fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Jul 17, 2011 |
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Jul 17, 2011 14:54
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frozenpeas posted:^^^^^^^
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Jul 17, 2011 15:19
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Above Our Own posted:He's calling out the part in your post where you implied that the reader should read into the books whatever he wants so he can get something out of it. And that's just a ridiculous way of thinking really. Are you suggesting there is a 'correct' way to read the book. What would that be?
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Jul 17, 2011 15:27
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I want to chime in on what someone mentioned a few pages back, the unreliable narrator subject. I could be completely off base, but there is a lot in both books to suggest that Kvothe really isn't everything (level 20 sex god, most powerful wizard, super ninja) that he's been claiming to be. I think that it's possible Kvothe carefully cultivated his image of his early life so that he would be the impossible hero to his relatively small circle of friends. His eventual flight after faking his death could have been his attempt to escape from all of his lies and embellishments, those that got so out of his control that he realized it would be impossible to ever live up to the hype. But he picked up Bast during the flight and decided that just one sycophantic follower would be ok, someone to be his "student" and tell him how great he was while he hid from his constructed and (mostly) false image. But Bast has found Chronicler and decided that Kvothe just needs someone to remind him of his greatness. Kvothe is telling his story in this little backwoods town because he hopes that this will grow his legend and satisfy Bast at the same time. I realize that I might be giving Rothfuss too much credit, but this seems like a great opportunity to really expand on the recent dark fantasy trend and take it a step further, exploring the impossible hero/unreliable narrator relationship and forcing readers to stop accepting protagonists at face value.
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Jul 17, 2011 15:47
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Former Everything posted:I realize that I might be giving Rothfuss too much credit, but this seems like a great opportunity to really expand on the recent dark fantasy trend and take it a step further, exploring the impossible hero/unreliable narrator relationship and forcing readers to stop accepting protagonists at face value. No, you have to actually work to set something like this up. You can't just suddenly proclaim: Oh Kvothe was lying, aren't we oh so clever! If an author wants to go the unreliable narrator route they really need to subtlety imply that something is wrong throughout the entire narrative, giving the reader clear doubts that something is up without quite giving the whole secret away. So I ask you, have we seen any implied evidence that Kvothe is lying to us, beyond that it would make certain parts of the story less of an embarrassing nerd wet dream? Because it seems like there were plenty of opportunities for the Chronicler to say or even think something along the lines of "you know I was at the University, and interviewed A LOT of other people who intimately knew you, and I've gotta say some of this doesn't sound 100% factual."
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Jul 17, 2011 18:57
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But wouldn't having someone say KVOTHE IS LYING in the middle of the narrative kind of ruin the whole idea of an unreliable narrator with some sort of reveal? Remember, this is all just my personal opinion, which could be clouded by hopeful thinking, but without picking out specific quotes, I think there is enough here to at least give it consideration. Kvothe has a completely unverifiable past, as everyone who would know him as a child is dead. He was a member of a travelling troupe renowned for their acting and performance ability. This troupe was nomadic, meaning no hope for childhood roots and acquaintances. Once he showed up somewhere verifiable, where records would be kept of his time, he remarks several times playing up rumours, using tricks to do seemingly impossible things, and allowing his persona to be developed by mass admiration. Don't get me wrong, I'm not theorizing that everything he has claimed to do is a lie. Just that, at this point, there is a huge break between his demonstrated ability/persona, and the one he is telling Chronicler about.
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Jul 17, 2011 20:46
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keiran_helcyan posted:So I ask you, have we seen any implied evidence that Kvothe is lying to us, beyond that it would make certain parts of the story less of an embarrassing nerd wet dream? Because it seems like there were plenty of opportunities for the Chronicler to say or even think something along the lines of "you know I was at the University, and interviewed A LOT of other people who intimately knew you, and I've gotta say some of this doesn't sound 100% factual." He literally admits to lying with great frequency when it suits him?
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Jul 17, 2011 21:12
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The way you're spinning it is almost plausible but I don't think Rothfuss would be able to pull it off (and loves Kvothe too much to make him bad). The narrative and the framing device we've so far been shown do not allow for the kind of detail of understanding of the character to make a satisfying heel-turn/unreliable narrator twist plausible. Someone would have to burst into the tavern and go "But you are a liar!" or something. As you say, maybe the entirety of the third book is going to be an incredible, labyrinthine spiralling of niggling wrongness. It's not very likely though. Also: Kvothe killed/fought off a bunch of stoney spider-demons in book 1, and was then leathered by two punchy soldiers in book two. Did he lose shitloads of fighting prowess overnight?
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Jul 17, 2011 21:13
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Evfedu posted:Also: Kvothe killed/fought off a bunch of stoney spider-demons in book 1, and was then leathered by two punchy soldiers in book two. Did he lose shitloads of fighting prowess overnight? I admit this is where I have to kind of take a leap of faith. What I (and yeah, I'm spinning this myself) see objectively is that Chronicler was unconscious for the entire fight, so we (as readers) have no idea of what happened. And Kvothe was pretty decimated by the fight. Not something you would necessarily expect to happen to the ultimate warrior-hero. I think Bast is legitimately the business though, so I'm not above considering that Bast played some part in Kvothe's survival that night. Edit: Bast's ability also plays a little bit into my reasoning as well. For all we know, Bast has been sold on the idea that Kvothe is powerless because he wants to be powerless. If Bast, proven to be violent when it suits him, suddenly finds out he's been strung along by the man he calls his master, it's definitely going to go wrong for Kvothe. Hence, Kvothe has to tell the story this way. The Edema Ruh are thought of nearly universally as the scum of the earth. What better way to validate your past than to create a new legend (how long since the last Edema Ruh hero?) by using your natural abilities to help cultivate it. And even in running from the past when his reputation became unsustainable, Kvothe's pride and vanity caused him to pick up Bast, and in doing so, begin the cycle again. Former Everything fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Jul 17, 2011 |
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Jul 17, 2011 21:31
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Makes a lot of sense really. Kvothe tells the Chronicler that he lies essentially constantly to maintain his persona, we're yet to see anything that proves Kvothe is anything like the hero the world says he is anyway. Besides the creepy awkward sex stuff, its either fairly tame "heroic" where he exploits people's lack of knowledge about magic or whatever, or stuff taken out of context and exaggerated. The whole theme of the series so far has been how different a hero's story is from reality. I wouldn't at all be surprised if that extended to the "True" story Kvothe is telling. And when he killed those two stoney spiders he was prepared, armored and still got the poo poo stabbed out of him and had to be put back together by Bast. Why do I even follow this series. By all rights I hate it. The main character is unlikable for the most part, 90% of the books feel like pointless lovely filler and so on and so on but I keep reading them. I don't know why. Help me someone.
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Jul 17, 2011 22:09
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Nemesis Of Moles posted:Why do I even follow this series. By all rights I hate it. The main character is unlikable for the most part, 90% of the books feel like pointless lovely filler and so on and so on but I keep reading them. I don't know why. Help me someone. I only picked this series up because I ran out of other stuff to read. I read the descriptions of Kvothe and the criticisms that were posted (generic super-awesome fantasy hero) and wanted nothing to do with it. But I'm a huge consumer of fantasy and after reading all the newer acclaimed stuff, saw Rothfuss was getting a lot of press. When I started reading, I immediately got the sense that Kvothe wasn't Drizzt with red hair and magic. For some reason, from the very beginning, I got the sense that there was some undercurrent to this story. So, maybe I'm crazy, but I've convinced myself that Rothfuss has set up an amazing opportunity to do something great. And if he doesn't do it, I'll probably write a lovely self-published novel that attempts it and cry about how I'll never be able to capture it like I have imagined Rothfuss will.
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Jul 17, 2011 22:28
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Yo, it has been picked up on that Kvothe is supposed to be an unreliable narrator. The thing is, Rothfuss announces loudly that he's an unreliable narrator, talks constantly about he intentionally builds up his own legend that doesn't completely correspond to the facts, but then doesn't really develop the concept in any interesting way. You only have to look at the present tense bits, the bits that aren't written from Kvothe's perspective. It's all "kvothe looked like a pretty normal guy, then someone pissed him off and eyes flashed with green fire and everyone in the room shat themselves at the glimpse of his true badassness emerging like the sun from behind a grey cloud". Point is, there is nothing in either the past or present sections that actually develops his character in the interesting ways that might follow from him being an unreliable narrator. It doesn't read like a conman talking himself into a legend, it reads like an adolescent writing what he thinks of as a genuinely badass character, with some stuff about intentionally building up his own rep thrown in. A lot of people in this thread seem to see the bit that screams "he's an unreliable narrator!" and just assume none of the events happened as they did and actually, a much better book happened. And I don't know, this'll all be revealed in the last line of the last book. That would be great, everyone agrees that concept'd make a good book, but the thing is that book hasn't been written.
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Jul 17, 2011 23:38
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Melche posted:That would be great, everyone agrees that concept'd make a good book, but the thing is that book hasn't been written. Reading your post history in this thread, it's pretty clear you have a hate on for this series. Which is fine and all, but I don't care enough about your opinion as a consumer of fantasy to change my opinion of the book. You've written  about how there's no characterization, and you're entitled to your opinion, but why do you seem to have some consuming need for validation that keeps drawing you back here to comment on the theories of other people who enjoy the book?And also, it's pretty cool how you've been making GBS threads on this book in the early part of the thread because it's so unbelievable that Kvothe never had consequences and is too much of a badass, but then poo poo on it again because it's SO OBVIOUS that it was all a setup and  it just isn't interesting.
Former Everything fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Jul 18, 2011 |
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Jul 18, 2011 00:10
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I'm not saying it's all a set up, I'm saying Rothfuss tried to write an unreliable narrator but fell in love with his character and didn't really have the balls to go through with making him genuinely flawed. So again and again you get him telling you how he intentionally crafted this legend of himself, but then nothing's done with that, he never really look less than awesome. Or he keeps "loving up", but never in a serious way that takes away from him being fundamentally amazing. And yeah, I don't know why I dislike it so much. I mean I think it's a pretty bad book, but for some reason it really gets under my skin.
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Jul 18, 2011 00:19
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Melche posted:I'm saying Rothfuss tried to write an unreliable narrator but fell in love with his character and didn't really have the balls to go through with making him genuinely flawed. So again and again you get him telling you how he intentionally crafted this legend of himself, but then nothing's done with that, he never really look less than awesome. Or he keeps "loving up", but never in a serious way that takes away from him being fundamentally amazing. You seem to want two narrators at once, telling the same story, with Kvothe talking about how awesome he is, and someone else contradicting him. But that's not interesting or an example of an unreliable narrator. Are you seriously saying that Rothfuss has failed because he "fell in love" with the character? As in, planned to write a terrific book about a fraud who became a victim of his own success but then decided the fraudulent story was so cool that he just went with it? Because that is a pretty preposterous thing to say, unless you're privy to some personal insight that I'm not. Or that he "didn't have the balls" to make his character flawed, when (supposing this theory is correct) the reveal that would make Kvothe a liar and a fraud wouldn't happen until the end (or nearer the end) of the series? I don't get it. You don't write an unreliable narrator who, as a legend in his own time, constantly points out all of his/her failures to the audience. That's pretty much the opposite of an unreliable narrator in this vein. You don't write an unreliable narrator with a helpful sidekick who constantly points out the lies and exaggerations to the reader. I think it's probably much more interesting to contrast the fantastic nature of Kvothe's story with the reality of the present timeline, and throw in the sense of some impending conflict that will ultimately settle the matter of Kvothe's true nature one way or another. Jesus christ, I'm really hung up on this theory. If it turns out this really was just nerd-wank self-insertion fantasy, I'll be sure to pop in here and take my lumps like a man.
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Jul 18, 2011 01:13
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Former Everything posted:Jesus christ, I'm really hung up on this theory. If it turns out this really was just nerd-wank self-insertion fantasy, I'll be sure to pop in here and take my lumps like a man.
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Jul 18, 2011 03:04
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WeWereSchizo posted:The thing is, it's been two solid books of nerd-wank self-insertion fantasy. There's no indication that Rothfuss has the writing chops to pull off a believable turn where we find out that he's not a badass afterall. If Abercrombie wrote the last book instead of Rothfuss, this entire trilogy would be redeemed. Kvothe would die by page 37.
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Jul 18, 2011 04:07
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Benson Cunningham posted:If Abercrombie wrote the last book instead of Rothfuss, this entire trilogy would be redeemed.
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Jul 18, 2011 04:11
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Benson Cunningham posted:If Abercrombie wrote the last book instead of Rothfuss, this entire trilogy would be redeemed. And yet, Abercrombie didn't really kill any of the core characters (with the exception of some of the Named Men). Jezal, Logen, Bayaz, Ferro and Glokta all survived. But it wasn't a sappy, happy ending by any means. Abercrombie understands at least how to hit tragedy, futility and "adult" themes without killing everyone off. Edit: spoilered some stuff. anathenema fucked around with this message at 05:43 on Jul 18, 2011 |
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Jul 18, 2011 05:15
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Evfedu posted:Also: Kvothe killed/fought off a bunch of stoney spider-demons in book 1, and was then leathered by two punchy soldiers in book two. Did he lose shitloads of fighting prowess overnight? It's strongly suggested that Kvothe threw that soldier fight deliberately.
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Jul 18, 2011 05:33
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Dude, don't spoil the Abercrombie books for me, I haven't gotten to them yet. 
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Jul 18, 2011 05:40
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Former Everything posted:I don't get it. You don't write an unreliable narrator who, as a legend in his own time, constantly points out all of his/her failures to the audience. That's pretty much the opposite of an unreliable narrator in this vein. You don't write an unreliable narrator with a helpful sidekick who constantly points out the lies and exaggerations to the reader. I think it's probably much more interesting to contrast the fantastic nature of Kvothe's story with the reality of the present timeline, and throw in the sense of some impending conflict that will ultimately settle the matter of Kvothe's true nature one way or another. The lovely thing about this theory is that there are so many disparate plot threads and the framing story is so light on detail that it literally won't matter if Kvothe turns out to be an unreliable narrator. If, in the next book, you discover that Kvothe is basically a college dropout with a penchant for fibbing and none of it ever happened, so what? Because the framing story is so weak, it's tantamount to ending the series with "and then he woke up, and realized it was all a dream". In the absence of a strong overarching narrative, if the anecdotes (which comprise most of the text) are false, who cares? Yes, there are hints that Kvothe isn't what he purports to be; but after two books of "hints", it is becoming increasingly apparent that these are JJ Abrams, Lost style amateur-hour narrative poo poo where Rothfuss is just throwing "intrigue" at the wall and seeing what sticks. Compare and contrast to Abercrombie, the GRRM, or even Brandon Sanderson (uck), and it's pretty evident that Rothfuss is floundering when it comes to stitching the anecdotes together into a novel.
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Jul 18, 2011 05:40
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I wish GRRM would write a story and all the characters and plotlines and then Rothfuss would actually pen the prose for it. Nerd dream numero uno.
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Jul 18, 2011 05:55
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