- bad news bareback
- Jan 16, 2009
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quote:
What Do We Mean by Government?
Last week, I addressed what we mean by liberty. Let’s look at something different this week. Let’s look at government. I have written on this from a somewhat more theoretical angle elsewhere. For now, I just want to stick to the basics. What is a Government, and how does it differ from other entities?
This question is not so easy as it first appears. Some might say that a government is the collective will of the people of a nation. Others might call it the authority vested by a nation collectively in certain individuals to make laws and to enforce them. This is more the traditional republican view on which the United States was founded. Others still might call government a collection of the wise ordained to watch over a nation and to lead them to peace and prosperity. This is the progressive view. Indeed, there are many ways of defining government. However, if we are to come to some sort of conclusion what exactly what a government is, let us consider how governments differ from all other entities and, therefore, how they function.
Many entities govern. Employers have policies. Churches have doctrines and tribunals. Clubs have bylaws and restrictions. Home owners associations govern, as does peer pressure, agreements of contract, schools, etc. Parents govern their children. But these things are not what we call “government,” even though we sometimes vote about who shall direct them, and they frequently have say about what happens in our lives. However, there is a crucial difference between government and any other type of human interaction considered legal: force.
Simply put, outside of government, every other relationship between people must be voluntary to be considered legal, and, usually, moral. Nobody may force another to deal with them. Except government.
For instance, a country club cannot force you to pay dues (except, of course, in the case of a breached contract. However, this does not represent a relation of force, since you would have entered into the contract voluntarily and therefore are liable for damages). A country club must persuade you to pay dues by convincing you that membership is in your best interest. You are free not to join. Furthermore, your employer may place restrictions on your behavior both when at work and elsewhere. However, by accepting employment you agree to abide these restrictions. If you no longer wanted to abide these restrictions, you could have opted out of these restrictions. Government, on the other hand, does not rely on the volition of individuals to enter into relations of obligation or restriction. You cannot opt out of paying taxes. You cannot refuse to be held by an arbitrary rule of restricted behaviors. You are subject to the whims of legislators merely for your body’s location.
However, merely saying that government is an entity that claims the right to force people into acting some ways and not acting other ways misses an essential aspect of government. There are restrictions on which people governments can govern. This is the notion of jurisdiction. California’s laws do not hold in Arizona. The Mexican government cannot decide how to sway the lives of people in the US directly. Governments are bound with respect to geography. Their relations of force are only good within certain specified geographic areas called Countries, States, Counties, Cities, and so forth. What I shall government, then, is this: the monopoly of the use of violent force in a certain space.
Why violence? There is no force without violence. And governments can only act through violence. Every government action is a product of violence at one point. I will start with the most supposedly harmless example: a parking ticket. Should one commit a behavior outlawed by government, double park, and get caught, they might be fined by a government official. At this point, violence has been done. This is because the person who has been fined has been given the choice to either pay the fine or to eventually suffer violence upon his body. If the fine is not paid a warrant will be issued. When arrested, his body will be taken. Should he refuse to comply with arrest, the police will force him with any amount of violence necessary to put his body where the justice system says it should be, such as jail or court, all the way up to inflicting death upon him. He might evade the government for a while. He might evade them permanently. But if they find him, they will take him. If he resists, they will subdue him. If he fights, they will kill him.
All laws work the same way. There is no opting out. One cannot say “No thank you, government. I choose not to participate. Do not expect my taxes to be paid this year. Good luck with your endeavors.” Should that person withhold his tax money, he will be forced to pay or suffer the violent removal of his body to a prison. Laws are necessarily violent.
Laws are only made for one of two reasons: 1) To force people to act in a way that would not choose to act without the threat of force; 2) To prevent people from acting in a way that they would act without a threat of force. An example of 1: Government taxes people and gives that money to organization X. They force you to act in this way by giving your money to organization X. You are forced to act under the threat of violence.
An example of 2: Smoking marijuana is illegal. Some would like to smoke marijuana. Others wish to prevent them from doing so. Government is used to commit acts of violence on those to commit this behavior. Therefore those who smoke marijuana will suffer some kind of government violence if caught. They are directed not to act in this way under the threat of violence.
Once these laws have been made, those within the jurisdiction of the governments in question are subject to them under the threat of violence. No exceptions (in a consistent system). One does not choose to pay taxes the way one chooses whether or not to go to the movies this weekend. One pays their taxes or suffers violence. That is the nature of government.
Government action is exactly the same kind of violence that occurs during an armed robbery. If I point a gun at you and demand half of your income, would you consider me violent? Of course, especially once I have proved willing to harm you if you refuse to hand over your money. Compliance will prevent violent reaction. But it is the threat of that violence, the ultimatum of force, that characterizes government.
Some will object and say, “but I don’t pay my taxes because I am threatened. I pay them because I want to.” That is fine. But it does not disprove my characterization of government. Anyone who pays taxes voluntarily must answer this question: why, then, must other people be forced to pay them? Nobody forces me to contribute to any number of things: my church, apple computers, direct tv, the company who manufactures my socks, everything I buy because I want to. But I am forced to pay taxes against my will. I will pay them as the government dictates, or I will be removed from my family and put in a dungeon. If government as it currently exists is an entity worth supporting financially, they would not need to threaten people to support it. They would do it without the constant threat of violence. If you support government out of love for it, leave the rest of us alone to support those things we prefer. But never pretend you are not a violent person, you who would force us to contribute. Never pretend you are anything other than a toady to the greatest bully on the playground.
http://thelibertyweekly.com/articles/
Lovely little blog I was sent. I sort of know the guy that wrote this and he is not hurting financially. He just wants to shoot the government or kill it with a bear trap or something.
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Jul 14, 2011 18:45
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May 15, 2024 21:05
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- Harold Fjord
- Jan 3, 2004
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I knew the guy on the far right's arm was too shiney.
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Jul 14, 2011 18:54
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- Nathilus
- Apr 4, 2002
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I alone can see through the media bias.
I'm also stupid on a scale that can only be measured in Reddits.
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Gropiemon posted:
http://thelibertyweekly.com/articles/
Lovely little blog I was sent. I sort of know the guy that wrote this and he is not hurting financially. He just wants to shoot the government or kill it with a bear trap or something.
He seems pretty dead on with all his assertions until that last paragraph. His definition of government is dead on and he's right about the use of force being inseparable from violence. But then at the end you find out he just doesn't want to be forced to pay taxes.
I say give him his mini-anarchy. No taxes, services, or laws shall apply to him. If someone wants to infringe his rights they can go for it without worrying about being arrested. Additionally, he will be charged for using public infrastructure like roads. If you won't pay to build them, you'll certainly pay to use them.
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Jul 14, 2011 19:09
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- ljw1004
- Jan 18, 2005
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rum
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Nathilus posted:
He seems pretty dead on with all his assertions until that last paragraph. His definition of government is dead on and he's right about the use of force being inseparable from violence.
"When you vote, you are exercising political authority and you're using force. And force, my friends, is violence -- the supreme authority from which all other authorities are derived." [from Starship Troopers]
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Jul 14, 2011 19:44
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- bad news bareback
- Jan 16, 2009
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ljw1004 posted:
"When you vote, you are exercising political authority and you're using force. And force, my friends, is violence -- the supreme authority from which all other authorities are derived." [from Starship Troopers]
Ha I knew I had heard something similar before. I may have even pictured Michael Ironsides giving a stern finger waggle.
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Jul 14, 2011 19:47
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- Sock on a Fish
- Jul 17, 2004
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What if that thing I said?
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Gropiemon posted:
http://thelibertyweekly.com/articles/
Lovely little blog I was sent. I sort of know the guy that wrote this and he is not hurting financially. He just wants to shoot the government or kill it with a bear trap or something.
Is anyone ever jailed for parking tickets? I thought at worst you'd end up losing your car.
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Jul 14, 2011 20:27
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- Gynocentric Regime
- Jun 9, 2010
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by Cyrano4747
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Sock on a Fish posted:
Is anyone ever jailed for parking tickets? I thought at worst you'd end up losing your car.
Depends on the jurisdiction, here they just send you to collections first, then if you duck them they'll go to small claims court and get a judgement against you and probably garnish your wages.
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Jul 14, 2011 21:10
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- last laugh
- Feb 11, 2004
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NOOOTHING!
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I don't know if this is old (I try to read this thread fairly regularly) but someone posted this status on my Facebook wall, and i don't think they were trying to be ironic:
quote:If you cross the N. Korean border illegally, you get 12 yrs. hard labor. If you cross the Afghanistan border illegally, you get shot. If you cross the U.S. border illegally you get a job, a driver's license, food stamps, a place to live, health care, housing & child benefits, education, & tax free business for 7 yrs. No wonder we are a country in debt. Re-post if you agree....!
So the takeaway if we should be like those fiscally responsible people of N Korea and Afghanistan? Of course, most of those benefits are imagined, and are provided by the state gov't anyway. The "debt ceiling" debate and absolute lack of understanding about sovereign finances in general has really brought out the best and the brightest lately.
I really just feel like replying "love it or leave it." Because seriously, loving North Korea?
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Jul 16, 2011 06:32
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- Shimrra Jamaane
- Aug 10, 2007
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Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.
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last laugh posted:
I don't know if this is old (I try to read this thread fairly regularly) but someone posted this status on my Facebook wall, and i don't think they were trying to be ironic:
So the takeaway if we should be like those fiscally responsible people of N Korea and Afghanistan? Of course, most of those benefits are imagined, and are provided by the state gov't anyway. The "debt ceiling" debate and absolute lack of understanding about sovereign finances in general has really brought out the best and the brightest lately.
I really just feel like replying "love it or leave it." Because seriously, loving North Korea?
This is a really old one. The best retort is to of course call them out on admiring rogue underdeveloped nations that they claim to despise.
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Jul 16, 2011 06:39
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- Corb3t
- Jun 7, 2003
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last laugh posted:
I don't know if this is old (I try to read this thread fairly regularly) but someone posted this status on my Facebook wall, and i don't think they were trying to be ironic:
So the takeaway if we should be like those fiscally responsible people of N Korea and Afghanistan? Of course, most of those benefits are imagined, and are provided by the state gov't anyway. The "debt ceiling" debate and absolute lack of understanding about sovereign finances in general has really brought out the best and the brightest lately.
I really just feel like replying "love it or leave it." Because seriously, loving North Korea?
Reply with: "I, too, want our country to be more like Afghanistan and North Korea."
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Jul 16, 2011 17:11
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- Dr Christmas
- Apr 24, 2010
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Berninating the one percent,
Berninating the Wall St.
Berninating all the people
In their high rise penthouses!
🔥😱🔥🔫👴🏻
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Corbet posted:
Reply with: "I, too, want our country to be more like Afghanistan and North Korea."
Also a good response if they say that they don't allow churches in Saudi Arabia, so we shouldn't allow the Park51 Community Center to be built.
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Jul 16, 2011 17:52
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- nsaP
- May 4, 2004
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alright?
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Corbet posted:
Reply with: "I, too, want our country to be more like Afghanistan and North Korea."
It seems like a funny idea until the person you're responding to (and half of the people reading it) won't make the connection and will think you're hosed up.
Speaking from some personal experience...
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Jul 16, 2011 23:33
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- Dr. Arbitrary
- Mar 15, 2006
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Bleak Gremlin
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Try "What other policies of North Korea do you admire?"
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Jul 17, 2011 07:37
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- JT Jag
- Aug 30, 2009
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#1 Jaguars Sunk Cost Fallacy-Haver
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:
Try "What other policies of North Korea do you admire?"
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Jul 17, 2011 07:42
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- Anidav
- Feb 25, 2010
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ahhh fuck its the rats again
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Crazy Australian Email from Grandfather posted:
DIVORCE AGREEMENT
THIS IS SO INCREDIBLY WELL PUT AND I CAN HARDLY BELIEVE IT'S BY A YOUNG PERSON, A STUDENT!!! WHATEVER HE RUNS FOR, I'LL VOTE FOR HIM.
Dear Australian Laborites, leftists, social progressives, socialists, Marxists and Gillard, et al:
We have stuck together since the late 1950s for the sake of the kids, but the whole of this latest election process has made me realize that I want a divorce. I know we tolerated each other for many years for the sake of future generations, but sadly, this relationship has clearly run its course.
Our two ideological sides of Australia cannot and will not ever agree on what is right for us all, so let's just end it on friendly terms. We can smile and chalk it up to irreconcilable differences and go our own way.
Here is a model separation agreement:
Our two groups can equitably divide up the country by landmass each taking a similar portion. That will be the difficult part, but I am sure our two sides can come to a friendly agreement. After that, it should be relatively easy! Our respective representatives can effortlessly divide other assets since both sides have such distinct and disparate tastes.
We don't like redistributive taxes so you can keep them. You are welcome to the ACTU, the Fabian Society and every member of Emily’s List. Since you hate guns and war, we'll take our firearms, the cops and the military. We'll take the nasty, smelly oil industry and you can go with wind, solar and bio-diesel. You can keep the ABC left wingers and Bob Brown. You are, however, responsible for finding an electric vehicle big enough to move all of them.
We'll keep capitalism, greedy corporations, pharmaceutical companies, Woolworths and the Stock Exchange. You can have your beloved lifelong welfare dwellers, dole bludgers, homeless, homeboys, hippies, druggies, Lebanese bikers and boat people. We'll keep the budgie smuggling, bike riding, volunteer firemen and lifesavers, greedy CEOs and rednecks. We'll keep the Bibles and the churches and give you SBS and the Greens.
You can make peace with Iran, Palestine and the Taliban and we'll retain the right to stand up and fight when threatened. You can have the greens and war protesters. When our allies or our way of life are under assault, we'll help provide them security.
We'll keep our Judeo-Christian values. You are welcome to Islam, Scientology, Humanism, political correctness and Penny Wong.
We'll keep the 4WDs, Utes and V8s. You can take every hybrid hatchback you can find.
We'll keep "Waltzing Matilda" and our National Anthem. I'm sure you'll be happy to keep in tune with Peter Garrett as he sings "Imagine", "I'd Like to Teach the World to Sing", "Kum Ba Ya", "We Are The World" and his recent big solo hit “Beds and Batts are Burning”.
We'll practice trickle down economics and you can continue to give trickle up poverty your best shot. Since it so often offends you, we'll keep our history, our name and our flag.
Do you agree to this? If so, please pass it along to other like-minded liberal and conservative Australians and if you do not agree, just hit delete. In the spirit of friendly parting, I'll bet you answer which one of us will need whose help in 15 years.
Sincerely,
John Wall
Australian Law Student
PS. Also, please take Wayne Swan, Alan Griffin, John Faulkner, Kevin Rudd and Jenny Macklin with you.
PPS. And you won't have to press "1" for English when you call our country.
I suppose all the fine folk from the Australian Politics Thread would love this one.
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Jul 17, 2011 13:20
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- Arglebargle III
- Feb 21, 2006
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Okay that I'm inclined to believe because only a law student would think that merely being a law student is some sort of job title to append to your name.
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Jul 17, 2011 13:29
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- SMILLENNIALSMILLEN
- Jun 26, 2009
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Anidav posted:
I suppose all the fine folk from the Australian Politics Thread would love this one.
quote:Dear American liberals, leftists, social progressives, socialists, Marxists and Obama supporters, et al:
We have stuck together since the late 1950's for the sake of the kids, but the whole of this latest election process has made me realize that I want a divorce. I know we tolerated each other for many years for the sake of future generations, but sadly, this relationship has clearly run its course.
Our two ideological sides of America cannot and will not ever agree on what is right for us all, so let's just end it on friendly terms. We can smile and chalk it up to irreconcilable differences and go our own way.
Here is a model separation agreement:
Our two groups can equitably divide up the country by landmass each taking a similar portion. That will be the difficult part, but I am sure our two sides can come to a friendly agreement. After that, it should be relatively easy! Our respective representatives can effortlessly divide other assets since both sides have such distinct and disparate tastes.
We don't like redistributive taxes so you can keep them. You are welcome to the liberal judges and the ACLU. Since you hate guns and war, we'll take our firearms, the cops, the NRA and the military. We'll take the nasty, smelly oil industry and you can go with wind, solar and biodiesel. You can keep Oprah, Michael Moore and Rosie O'Donnell. You are, however, responsible for finding a bio-diesel vehicle big enough to move all three of them.
We'll keep capitalism, greedy corporations, pharmaceutical companies, Wal-Mart and Wall Street. You can have your beloved lifelong welfare dwellers, food stamps, homeless, homeboys, hippies, druggies and illegal aliens. We'll keep the hot Alaskan hockey moms, greedy CEO's and rednecks. We'll keep the Bibles and give you NBC and Hollywood .
You can make nice with Iran and Palestine and we'll retain the right to invade and hammer places that threaten us. You can have the peaceniks and war protesters. When our allies or our way of life are under assault, we'll help provide them security.
We'll keep our Judeo-Christian values. You are welcome to Islam, Scientology, Humanism, political correctness and Shirley McClain. You can also have the U.N. but we will no longer be paying the bill.
We'll keep the SUV's, pickup trucks and oversized luxury cars. You can take every Subaru station wagon you can find.
You can give everyone healthcare if you can find any practicing doctors. We'll continue to believe healthcare is a luxury and not a right. We'll keep "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" and "The National Anthem." I'm sure you'll be happy to substitute "Imagine", "I'd Like to Teach the World to Sing", "Kum Ba Ya" or "We Are the World".
We'll practice trickle down economics and you can continue to give trickle up poverty your best shot.
Since it often so offends you, we'll keep our history, our name and our flag.
Would you agree to this? If so, please pass it along to other like-minded liberal and conservative patriots and if you do not agree, just hit delete. In the spirit of friendly parting, I'll bet you answer which one of us will need whose help in 15 years.
Sincerely,
John J. Wall
Law Student and an American
P. S. Also, please take Nancy Pelosi, Ted Turner, Sean Penn, Martin Sheen, Barbara Streisand, & Jane Fonda with you.
P. S. S. And you won't have to press 1 for English when you call our country.
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Jul 17, 2011 13:29
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- Parity Bit
- Apr 1, 2010
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We'll keep all of the guns and greedy rich people, get rid of all of the filthy poors, and keep our Christian values too! 
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Jul 17, 2011 15:36
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- Foyes36
- Oct 23, 2005
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Food fight!
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I crack up every time I read "Law Student," like that confers some sort of authority.
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Jul 17, 2011 15:41
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- Walter
- Jul 3, 2003
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We think they're great. In a grand, mystical, neopolitical sense, these guys have a real message in their music. They don't, however, have neat names like me and Bono.
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I always love the "If you don't agree, just hit delete" comments at the end.
quote:Dear So and So,
Unsolicited, I'm going to send you this inflammatory, nasty email that I acknowledge you may not want to receive. If that's the case, please just calmly hit delete and ignore the poo poo I sent you. I don't want to have to deal with any blowback by forwarding unwanted crap to people.
Thanks, bye.
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Jul 17, 2011 15:58
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- Absurd Alhazred
- Mar 27, 2010
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by Athanatos
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last laugh posted:
Also I hope they realize it's those same greedy CEOs who added 2,3 etc for other languages because they realized speaking fluent English isn't a pre-requisite for spending money or requiring services.
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Jul 17, 2011 19:38
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- RagnarokAngel
- Oct 5, 2006
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Black Magic Extraordinaire
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last laugh posted:
Will there even be room for lawyers in Kochtopia?
Also I hope they realize it's those same greedy CEOs who added 2,3 etc for other languages because they realized speaking fluent English isn't a pre-requisite for spending money or requiring services. Will there be evil regulation (because all regulation is, of course, evil) dictating corps can't do business in other languages or something?
No it's political correctness. Literally everything I dont like is government intervention.
VVVV In Conservatopia it will be mandated to bring a gun outside at all times, so it's technically hunting.
RagnarokAngel fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Jul 18, 2011
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Jul 18, 2011 04:15
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- Teriyaki Hairpiece
- Dec 29, 2006
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I'm nae the voice o' the darkened thistle, but th' darkened thistle cannae bear the sight o' our Bonnie Prince Bernie nae mair.
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The email isn't clear, do us liberals get to keep "Hail, Columbia"? I know it kind of sucks but it was our national anthem for longer than the current one, and conservatives generally like old-fashioned things more than new-fangled ones.
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Jul 18, 2011 05:47
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- Bates
- Jun 15, 2006
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Sarion posted:
Also, is it safe to assume that we get to keep science?
Yeah I was wondering why they'd want the pharmeceutical companies when we have all the scientists and universities.
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Jul 18, 2011 14:02
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- ApathyGifted
- Aug 30, 2004
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Tomorrow?
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cheerfullydrab posted:
The email isn't clear, do us liberals get to keep "Hail, Columbia"? I know it kind of sucks but it was our national anthem for longer than the current one, and conservatives generally like old-fashioned things more than new-fangled ones.
Conservatives aren't that great at remembering history, so their answer will be "What the gently caress is 'Hail, Columbia?' Sure, you can have songs about countries full of drug dealers, commies."
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Jul 18, 2011 16:36
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- JoshTheStampede
- Sep 8, 2004
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come at me bro
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Anosmoman posted:
Yeah I was wondering why they'd want the pharmeceutical companies when we have all the scientists and universities.
They can continue to make all the current drugs we know how to make, and never advance. It will be like manufacturing in Warhammer 40K, where everything is done automatically by huge robot black-box factories and no one actually knows how anything is built, so they just worship things and wave the holy wrench and pray to the machine spirit to keep giving them their dick pills and Advil.
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Jul 18, 2011 16:39
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- crime fighting hog
- Jun 29, 2006
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I only pray, Heaven knows when to lift you out
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Dominion posted:
They can continue to make all the current drugs we know how to make, and never advance. It will be like manufacturing in Warhammer 40K, where everything is done automatically by huge robot black-box factories and no one actually knows how anything is built, so they just worship things and wave the holy wrench and pray to the machine spirit to keep giving them their dick pills and Advil.
"Pa, the car ain't startin!"
"YOU AIN'T PRAYIN HARD ENOUGH!"
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Jul 18, 2011 16:47
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- babies havin rabies
- Feb 24, 2006
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spankmeister posted:
It's only too bad that even if Australia and/or America were to be divided, the right-wingers would probably start bombing and invading the liberal side anyway.
There needs to be some kind of medal or alarm in D&D whenever a poster arrives at a Marxist critique of capital independently.
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Jul 18, 2011 18:44
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May 15, 2024 21:05
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- tek79
- Jun 16, 2008
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katlington posted:
Dear American liberals, leftists, social progressives, socialists, Marxists and Obama supporters, et al:
We have stuck together since the late 1950's for the sake of the kids, but the whole of this latest election process has made me realize that I want a divorce.
We'll keep our Judeo-Christian values, AND our unstoppable desire to kill all who disagree with us! And while we're at it, keep the homeless on YOUR SIDE! And when those "Greedy CEO's" successfully lobby to strip all of us "Rednecks" of our worker's rights, slash minimum wage to unlivable levels and make 100 hour work weeks the norm, we surely wouldn't unionize or take to the streets in protest, because that's what those human being Libertopian's would do! Let's fight to keep our military big, Big, BIG...and SCARY, and taxes LOW, Low, low! What could possibly go wrong?
Seriously though, I'd suspect if this did occur (at least in the U.S.), the supposed "Liberal Utopia" would probably look like modern America, except we'd probably have a few more social services, UHC and a better education system. Conservatopia would be a shitstorm of failure and eventual economic and social collapse.
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Jul 18, 2011 20:35
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Jul 14, 2011 18:45
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