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I'm assuming that the lost littlest Lannister is going to have some "head of the lion" payoff now that Kevan is dead?
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Jul 18, 2011 22:31
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BeigeJacket posted:Who will be the head of House Lannister now that Kevan is dead? Ser Kevan was never a lord of anything. Even though he totally should have been. gently caress Varys  Kainser fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Jul 18, 2011 |
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Jul 18, 2011 22:35
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Alright then, check out GURMS justification on the knot; http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/5431/ you know who posted:The Meerenese Knot related to everyone reaching Dany. There's a series of events that have to occur in Meereen, things that are significant. She has various problems to deal with at the start: dealing with the slavers, threats of war, the Sons of the Harpy, and so on. At the same time, there's all of these characters trying to get to her. So the problem was to figure out who should reach her and in what order, and what events should happen by the time they've reached her. I kept coming up with different answers and I kept having to rewrite different versions and then not being satisfied with the dynamics until I found something that was satisfactory. I thought that solution worked well, but it was not my first choice. Try as I may I just can't see how he resolved any of this, beyond moving the bulk of it to book six. Tyrion, Victarion, this Oldtown mage no-mark never got to Mereen, Martell did and was hilariously ineffective, and now you've got Dany stuck in Dothraki land away from Barristan, the Unsullied and the rest of her peeps. Unless the last ADWD chapter was some massive epiphany after all, and she solves this issue by BURNING THE gently caress OUT OF THINGS, I don't see how the next book can get things moving again without a bunch more static bullshit. The problem was that he set up Dany as being totally committed to her antislavery position whilst showing what a fucker this is to implement. Unless she goes for the nuclear option of killing all her enemies without fail, with all the collateral damage that entails, we're going to see more o the same. loving Mereen man. BeigeJacket fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Jul 18, 2011 |
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Jul 18, 2011 22:51
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My favorite stupid Dany part was when the Yunkai had Meereen blocked by sea and her advisors were like "you know those ships are all just wood and hemp and pitch and you got these dudes that breathe fire right?" and she refused to hear any of it.
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Jul 18, 2011 22:55
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BeigeJacket posted:Danys last chapter was weird, I'm not sure what exactly the big fellow was trying to get at. It seems to be a lost-inthe-wilderness-leading-to-great-revelation trope that usually signifies a character reflecing on the past and making a decision for the future. OR it could be read as a woe-is-me-all-is-forsaken self pity jag. Either way it was pretty vaguely done and not satisfying. There were a few times in the book where people were getting murdered and Danys interior monologue would say something like "she was the blood of the dragon, she would lead her people" or some poo poo. And I'd be sitting there thinking 'alright now the gloves are off and shes going to give the dragons a whirl, and of course it never happens. Yeah, I agree. I was expecting that chapter to be exactly what you describe, a trial-by-hardship sort of revelation from which she emerges being able to control her dragon - or really anything to move her story. But now it's really unclear just what the hell it is that she has emerged with, if anything
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Jul 18, 2011 22:56
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silly posted:My favorite stupid Dany part was when the Yunkai had Meereen blocked by sea and her advisors were like "you know those ships are all just wood and hemp and pitch and you got these dudes that breathe fire right?" and she refused to hear any of it. That's not to say that all Dany's decisions regarding her dragons were good. She should certainly not have put them in a pit for one. vvv: Gerion was the youngest brother, would still be behind Cersei and Kevan's remaining sons. It would also be really cheap to bring even more people back from the presumed dead in my opinion, but oh well. Kainser fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Jul 18, 2011 |
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Jul 18, 2011 22:59
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BeigeJacket posted:Who will be the head of House Lannister now that Kevan is dead? Maybe Gerion Lannister will return? It seems like most of the older Lannisters have died and there was a few references to Gerion in the earlier chapters of Dance where Tyrion recalls him somewhat fondly, we all know Martin is a fan of Chekhov's gun Like Jon Connington he hosed off somewhere and was assumed to be dead. Just write that he went to work as a sell sword seeking fame and glory, which fits with his personality since he allegedly sought out the lost Lannister Valyrian blade, and has now returned upon hearing his brothers are dead and he has a chance to become the head of House Lannister. Since he doesn't seem like a total dick it'd be a nice way to reconcile Tyrion with his family. Edit: Also since all the older Lannisters are dead and Gerion wasn't involved in the war effort, he might actually turn to Tyrion for advice/assistance. Assuming at this point that Dany is finally getting round to returning to Westeros with Tyrion in tow, this might be a good way to rally the Lannisters to the protagonists cause via Tyrion. Sir Hamish fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Jul 18, 2011 |
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Jul 18, 2011 23:03
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Speaking of dragons, do we have any idea how big they are at this point?
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Jul 18, 2011 23:04
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I saw Dany's stupidity as a conflict between head vs. heart. She THINKS she's the blood of the dragon, and that she could just give in and gently caress everyone up and kill them all, but at the same time, she has a heart, and that heart wants to lead the people she had freed to a better life. But all the people surrounding her all want different things, and she can't please them all. I feel like her last chapter through the Dothraki Sea showed us that she has finally taken in the advice of all those most important in her life, and figured out that she unfortunately cannot plant trees, only burn them. And then when the dust settles, maybe she can make some semblance of rule from all the charred remains.
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Jul 18, 2011 23:11
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Sir Hamish posted:Maybe Gerion Lannister will return? It seems like most of the older Lannisters have died and there was a few references to Gerion in the earlier chapters of Dance where Tyrion recalls him somewhat fondly, we all know Martin is a fan of Chekhov's gun Gerion sailed off Valyria, right? Everyone but Euron who gets close to or lands in Valyria seems to die horribly. I wouldn't put it past Martin (especially with Connington and Aegon back), but I don't see why he would need to bring back a rarely mentioned Lannister when he has so many Lannisters around already.
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Jul 18, 2011 23:13
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I hold out hope that Pretty Pig is alive and well and will save the day at some point 
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Jul 18, 2011 23:13
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VaultAggie posted:Speaking of dragons, do we have any idea how big they are at this point? There's a lot of talk about how they don't really stop growing as long as they have room and food, and about the black dragon back in the day putting armies in shadow with his wingspan who knows though
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Jul 18, 2011 23:13
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hypocrite lecteur posted:There's a lot of talk about how they don't really stop growing as long as they have room and food, and about the black dragon back in the day putting armies in shadow with his wingspan The big, wild fucker is described as having a wingspan of 20 feet at one point.
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Jul 18, 2011 23:16
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BeigeJacket posted:The big, wild fucker is described as having a wingspan of 20 feet at one point. 
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Jul 18, 2011 23:25
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VaultAggie posted:Speaking of dragons, do we have any idea how big they are at this point?
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Jul 18, 2011 23:26
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Cervixalot posted:So I know a lot of people were pissed about how Bran's story petered out, but I did like how we saw traces of him throughout the rest of the book, like when Theon got close to Weirwood trees and heard whispers.
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Jul 18, 2011 23:35
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I wasn't able to read ADWD until four days after it had been released, and seeing it on all those store bookshelves was murder. The pace was still slower than I'd have liked, but we've got a lot of fodder to argue over for the next six years. The Aegon reveal was genuinely shocking for me, and I'm already digging the Lemore=Ashara theory. But Tyrion needs to find Dany and teach her how to dragon wrangle and connive immediately -- no more of this unfortunate delay poo poo, please. As much as I want to like Dany, I'm hoping she's gone a little insane after this ordeal, and for the love of God please let us never see Mereen again. Just let it implode. I also dread any potential romance between Tyrion and Penny, but as annoying as some posters found her, I think she and Tyrion have a lot of hard truths to teach each other, albeit coming from opposite directions. All the Manderlys are great, Barristan just keeps getting better, but noooo Kevan.  Did anyone catch Barristan's line to his trainee knights about "It is better to die with honor than live with shame," only to have Kevan state the inverse in the epilogue?drat you GRMM for making me like that rear end in a top hat Theon. I also liked the Asha chapters way more than I expected. The scene where her group was ambushed by leafy Northmen was thrilling, and I had to laugh when the red-haired chick came running naked through the battle, only to grab a sword and jump right into the fray after Asha throwing-axed one of guys chasing her. The ironborn are so wonderfully metal. I missed Jaime, but the best thing about his one appearance is that it ended with him hooking back up with Brienne. However you might feel about her chapters in AFFC, Brienne and Jaime are entertaining any time they're sharing a scene. Definitely looking forward to that in the next book, which will hopefully be "whole" and full of payoffs in the vein of SoS. Jon Connington is 100% gay for his beautiful silver prince Rhaegar. Crisco Kid fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Jul 18, 2011 |
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Jul 18, 2011 23:50
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Just finished it, in a similar boat ^^ I didn't get to start reading it until a few days ago. Victarion and his badass magical burned hand are going to win this thing.
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Jul 19, 2011 00:04
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Finished it last night. Gotta say I agree with most people here. The big three (Tyrion, Dany, Jon) failed to impress I understand the need for this book/feast to set the final two in motion but it seemed like a lot of plodding and repetition that got us almost nowhere. That said, I was happy when the arcs picked up at the end and I'm very eager to see where all three go in the next book.A few things felt like they didn't belong or not fleshed out enough (Jaime, Cersie, Bran, Arya) but I still enjoyed seeing the storylines again, even if it was for just a small while. Like the big three, I can't wait to see where these are going. Everything else (Theon/Boltons, Stannis, Freys/Manderly, Connington, Barristan, Kevan, etc) was very enjoyable. loving Manderly with his pies was literally Eric Cartman: 
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Jul 19, 2011 00:09
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hhhmmm posted:Suddenly there is a plot-issue where GRRM wants Jon dead, and so Jon takes a sudden lapse into retardness. In ways he has previously been shown to be quite capable. It's been pretty obvious that something funny was going to happen, ever since Jon was announced as the 998th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. There were theories like 10 years ago that he would "die" and come back to be the 1000th. It was almost obvious enough that you thought it might be a red herring. But nope.
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Jul 19, 2011 00:12
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lapse posted:It's been pretty obvious that something funny was going to happen, ever since Jon was announced as the 998th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.  Make Ser Alliser Torne or someone number 1000 please. Anyone but loving Jon Snow who already has way to many *I am special and awesome*-things going on for him. e; I always thought that it was a nice subversion that he ended up being number 998 instead of 1000. Kainser fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Jul 19, 2011 |
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Jul 19, 2011 00:19
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Could the 'to go west you must travel east and pass beneath the shadow' line refer to landing at Eastwatch and passing beneath the shadow of the wall? If she is meant to fight the others it could make sense.
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Jul 19, 2011 00:19
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lapse posted:It's been pretty obvious that something funny was going to happen, ever since Jon was announced as the 998th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. A character also specifically mentioned that there were only around 600 actual verifiable Lord Commanders, so it was sort of unprovable BS because the records didn't exist.
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Jul 19, 2011 00:19
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Lenin Stimpy posted:Any idea what patchface might be referring to when he says "Under the sea, the merman feast on starfish soup and all the serving men are crabs."? Saw this from way back in the thread, and there may be an interesting morsel here: Merman = House Manderly Starfish = House Karstark? (white sunburst on a black field?) Someone in Stannis' gang might actually have a star sigil, I don't recall who though Crabs = ??? We already know that the Karstarks mean to betray Stannis in the upcoming battle, but I think whether Stannis knew this in advance (from a raven/the Bravos Banker) doesn't mean much, since Bolton's attack seems to have come as a surprise, he probably didn't have time to put all the Karstarks to the sword. Its also more than likely that Manderly means to betray Bolton in the upcoming battle. Perhaps the Karstarks end up routing Stannis' host, but then Manderly (who has the most knights on the battlefield) routs everyone else, the battered Karstarks are the slowest for some reason and get wiped out and then loving eaten by lord-devourer Manderly. Davos then sails back with Rickon and his wildling Nanny, and Lord Lamprey starts putting Winterfell back together as the new King-in-the-North's regent. The remaining Bolton + allies are crushed by Manderly's men + Davos and his host of face-eaters from Skagos + 200 Thenns and Alyn Karstark on their way back from the wall. Winterfell is now beyond Littlefinger's grasp and he masturbates furiously out the Moon Door as Mord spanks Sansa's bare rear end with a snow-shoe. This is totally what happens. Calling it now.
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Jul 19, 2011 00:36
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Azure_Horizon posted:I saw Dany's stupidity as a conflict between head vs. heart. She THINKS she's the blood of the dragon, and that she could just give in and gently caress everyone up and kill them all, but at the same time, she has a heart, and that heart wants to lead the people she had freed to a better life. I agree with the last Dany chapter being an epiphany for her. But it didn't need half so much build-up. Martin could have put that in the middle of the book and freed up the rest for more interesting things to happen. Anyway, I guess now that Jon has 'died' maybe he'll come back with some horrible flaw like all the other characters have. Even if he's just enslaved by Melisandre that would be something. Also, those two corpses still locked up in the ice cage are going to bite somebody in the rear end later on.
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Jul 19, 2011 00:37
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Ghost Hat posted:Also, those two corpses still locked up in the ice cage are going to bite somebody in the rear end later on. Then people starts dying 
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Jul 19, 2011 00:40
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Speaking of Patchface, did I read right that Melisandre didn't trust him?
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Jul 19, 2011 00:42
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Supreme Allah posted:Speaking of Patchface, did I read right that Melisandre didn't trust him? quote:Ser Malegorn offered his arm, and Queen Selyse took it stiffly. Her other hand settled on her daughter’s shoulder. The royal ducklings fell in behind them as they made their way across the yard, marching to the music of the bells on the fool’s hat. “Under the sea the mermen feast on starfish soup, and all the serving men are crabs,” Patchface proclaimed as they went. “I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”
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Jul 19, 2011 00:57
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Supreme Allah posted:Speaking of Patchface, did I read right that Melisandre didn't trust him? There HAS to be something up with Patchface, there just HAS to be. I don't know if it's the lines Martin gave him, or the way he's been written, or the reaction to him from several characters / Melisandre, but there's going to be some weird poo poo going on with him. I have no idea what it's going to be or how or when or why, but SOMETHING will happen.
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Jul 19, 2011 01:50
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Habibi posted:There HAS to be something up with Patchface, there just HAS to be. I don't know if it's the lines Martin gave him, or the way he's been written, or the reaction to him from several characters / Melisandre, but there's going to be some weird poo poo going on with him. I have no idea what it's going to be or how or when or why, but SOMETHING will happen.
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Jul 19, 2011 02:00
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Kainser posted:He's the Azor Ahai of the Drowned God. The Drowned God made flesh would be a fricking sweet plot twist. Also, I'm gonna make a wild guess and say Sweets comes back with at least 1 POV chapter. Like in the prologue where everybody dies.
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Jul 19, 2011 02:03
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Habibi posted:There HAS to be something up with Patchface, there just HAS to be. I don't know if it's the lines Martin gave him, or the way he's been written, or the reaction to him from several characters / Melisandre, but there's going to be some weird poo poo going on with him. I have no idea what it's going to be or how or when or why, but SOMETHING will happen. Secret Targ.
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Jul 19, 2011 02:06
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So I was linked this video, and while it's a great idea I didn't really care for the verses: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60Znn2_jDIc So I wrote some. They're not fabulous, but it was half an hour I spent laughing, and there's worse things to be doing. Tyrion They think it bothers me to be "The Imp", but I never stress it / Cause when it comes to wits I'm towering like Baelor the Blessed Relationships are bad for me, you know my father can't stand / to see me frolicking where whores go so he made me his Hand Well Joffrey's to be exact, give little monster his due / Though when it comes to Hands his father really could use one too Now let me verbally caress you cause I'm right back on track / You be my sister and I'll be your Moon Boy or Kettleblack Westeros is wack, more kings than my best deck of cards / Rapists murderers and thieves are our sworn northern guards I'm getting tired of this folly they call the game of thrones / I'm exhausted, got me shaking like I'm Rattleshirt's bones Time to get outta Dodge, before this poor midget die / Gonna find my dragon queen and tap that Azor Azhai Jaime (Set a few books earlier than Tyrion's) Let me introduce you to the Kingsgaurding player/ Don't you know? Bitches call me Mr. King-and-Beat-slayer Scared of me that's fine, fear is always better than love / Aerys told me "Burn them all" cause I'm the sun up above But just like a dove, I'm tender when it comes to my sis /but the things I do for love would make Crows shiver and piss I find my bliss in battle, that is until my enemy yields / That little puppy Robb is lucky he rolls out with meat shields Now everybody knows that I'm the best in the land / Ain't gonna stop this killing long as I got this here right hand And the sword that I put in it, hear this lion's loud roar / Once I get up out this dungeon I'mma settle the score So watch out you direwolves, you fish and hell even the stag/ You'll find the cup you've poured is likely gonna cause you to gag But the lions never choke, and now the Pride's going forth / I'll be pissing on Ned's tomb while we DEVOUR the North. So yeah, hope you like it! 
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Jul 19, 2011 02:11
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Just finished the book today; pretty much have the same thoughts as most people here it seems. The Jon/Dany chapters are incredibly boring; I found it almost impossible not to skim her chapters towards the end of the book. I'm not sure if I'm the only one who finds the whole savior to slaves/"Mother" bit really tired and cliche, especially considering Dany's character. I feel like the series is slowly turning into Harry Potter as well; at this point everything is loving magical. The prominence of magic/generic fantasy stuff has slowly increased as the series goes on to the point where the only POV that doesn't feature anything high fantasy are the Theon/Reek ones (I don't think it's a coincidence that people seem to like his chapters the best in ADWD). Part of the reason the Manderly bit is so satisfying/the Theon POVs are good is because it goes back to what the earlier books were about: the different houses/hidden motivations/allegiances/rivalries/ ect. The introduction of Aegon/Jon's 'death' (you know Melisandre is just gonna bring him back) just made me feel tired because it just introduces two more elements to the story that are going to clog it up even more and just contribute to how convoluted the story is becoming. It's hard enough getting facetime with the characters that you want to read about, at this point in the books I don't know how the reader could really care about Aegon as a character. The epilogue was my favorite part of the book; it was awesome to see Varys again and to know that he's still involved and actively pushing his agenda. The evolution of the Reek/Theon chapters was great and were definitely my favorite POVs throughout the book + Manderly owns. The Barristan POV was also excellent, though I know he's probably going to meet his end in the next book Also way too much talk about people pooping blood in this book
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Jul 19, 2011 02:13
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I was re-reading Kevan's chapter and I noticed that Boros Blount (food taster) doesn't seem to be in a good way. Perhaps someone's trying to poison Tommen?
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Jul 19, 2011 02:21
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I also think GRRM now relies on reveals and false deaths and shocking events to keep the reader interested. I feel like in the first 3 books the characterization and dialogue kept me interested and the plot progressed naturally. But now there's always a death or a death that you know didn't really happen or a shocking reveal and it has come to be too much of a device now. I expect to be surprised and therefore nothing really surprises me anymore. The dialogue and inner monologue have gotten stale and somehow MORE two-dimensional for certain characters as they've gone along. I miss eating up every sentence of dialogue. Long story short, I feel that now all the chapters are basically leading us to the big event at the end of that chapter instead of having a more subtle end and giving us interesting character development. Brodeurs Nanny fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Jul 19, 2011 |
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Jul 19, 2011 02:23
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The Tyrion chapters were my only disappointment. I'd gotten sick of Jon/Dany two books ago, so when I got to those I just stopped reading for a while and came back fresh to slog through them. Tyrion though was so awesome to this point, and they waste him on boats and pigs. I also notice we suddenly go back to him being a tumbler after it not being brought up since the first part of the first book. That should come in handy when he gets tossed off a dragon onto the wall from three miles up.
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Jul 19, 2011 02:24
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To add to Martin making twists or false twists habitual, I have now learned to doubt anything we are "supposed" to believe as readers because it always turns out to be a lie. So it isn't working anymore.
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Jul 19, 2011 02:24
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Was Meryn Trant mentioned in ADWD? I can't recall.. He's gonna get his for killing Syrio 
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Jul 19, 2011 02:30
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priznat posted:Was Meryn Trant mentioned in ADWD? I can't recall.. He's gonna get his for killing Syrio Wasn't he the Kingsguard sent to get Myrcella from Dorne? Y'know, because Oakheart got Darkstar'd. Also throwing in some love for the Areo Hotah POV; I don't get why Barristan gets all the love for being a badass sentry and Hotah doesn't.
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Jul 19, 2011 02:43
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