The Prison Thread

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Cerebral Bore: Apr 21, 2010; Fun Shoe

Authorman posted:

Good Words

Well gently caress me Amadeus, I knew poo poo was bad, but seeing it like that really hammers home exactly how hosed up everything really is.

# ? Jul 13, 2011 12:32

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# ? May 29, 2024 21:12

HELLO THERE: Mar 22, 2010

Authorman posted:

Did this post in another thread that will probably be gassed or not read by anyone so I will repost this here in the good thread.

Comparing the numbers of people incarcerated in the Soviet Gulags versus those incarcerated in the American Prison System.

I did some study in this field a while back so I still had resources kicking around so here are some cobbled together numbers.
code:
Soviet Union Gulag

182,321,000 1951 Total Population
  1,727,970 1953 Total Number Incarcerated
  1,533,767 1951 Total Number Incarcerated

947.76 1953 Persons Incarcerated per 100,000
841.24 1951 Persons Incarcerated per 100,000

United States Prisons

304,000,000 2008 Est. Population
  2,424,279 2008 Total Number Incarcerated (1)

797.46 2008 Persons Incarcerated per 100,000 
America: Marginally Better Than Stalin.

But then if you look at imprisonment (different than incarceration, imprisonment counts only those convicted and sentenced to longer than one year) along certain demographic lines..
code:
39,683,000 2008 Total African American Population
   591,900 2008 Total African Americans Imprisoned

1491.57 2008 African Americans Imprisoned per 100,000
oh.
code:
18,545,000 2008 Total African American Male Population
   562,800 2008 Total African American Males Imprisoned

3034.78 2008 African American Males Imprisoned per 100,000
References:

(1) This number counts those incarcerated in ICE facilities, juvie, rez, military and territorial jails, et all. which are typically not counted which is why this number is higher than you might have thought.

African American 2008 demographic numbers
Various other demographic numbers wikipedia or wolfram
US prison numbers straight from the DoJ They didn't provide the total population numbers used to calculate the 100,000 statistics so to show the math I used estimates from around the internet which is why they are slightly different than those above.
Exerpts:

Soviet Gulag Numbers
Exerpt:

Thank you! Can we get this into the OP?

# ? Jul 13, 2011 20:47

Rolled Cabbage: Sep 3, 2006

I've been inspired recently to write to Kenny Zulu Whitmore (by a comedy podcast of all things) and was wondering if anyone in the thread would like me to ask him anything on their behalf in my letter or could suggest any good reading material concerning him or the angola 3 to help educate me. http://www.freezulu.blogspot.com seems to have his most up to date information if you want to write, as well as links to his website and various other prison related initiatives.

# ? Jul 15, 2011 05:22

genderstomper58: Jan 10, 2005; by XyloJW

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/14/us-prison-blacks-idUSTRE76D71920110714

goon white guilt spin assemble!!!!

# ? Jul 15, 2011 07:04

genderstomper58: Jan 10, 2005; by XyloJW

moker posted:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/14/us-prison-blacks-idUSTRE76D71920110714

goon white guilt spin assemble!!!!

Yeah, and slaves were probably safer too(which is what our prison system is .btw.) Your Point?

Furthermore, Whites keep Blacks from basic education on drugs and alcohol.

# ? Jul 15, 2011 07:05

Pope Guilty: Nov 6, 2006; The human animal is a beautiful and terrible creature, capable of limitless compassion and unfathomable cruelty.

moker posted:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/14/us-prison-blacks-idUSTRE76D71920110714

goon white guilt spin assemble!!!!

quote:

Researchers say it's not the first time a study has found lower death rates among certain groups of inmates -- particularly disadvantaged people, who might get protection against violent injuries and murder.

"Ironically, prisons are often the only provider of medical care accessible by these underserved and vulnerable Americans," said Hung-En Sung of the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York.

"Typically, prison-based care is more comprehensive than what inmates have received prior to their admission," Sung, who wasn't involved in the new study, told Reuters Health by email.

The new study involved about 100,000 men between age 20 and 79 who were held in North Carolina prisons at some point between 1995 and 2005. Sixty percent of those men were black.

Researchers linked prison and state health records to determine which of the inmates died, and of what causes, during their prison stay. Then they compared those figures with expected deaths in men of the same age and race in the general population.

Less than one percent of men died during incarceration, and there was no difference between black and white inmates. But outside prison walls, blacks have a higher rate of death at any given age than whites.

"What's very sad about this is that if we are able to all of a sudden equalize or diminish these health inequalities that you see by race inside a place like prison, it should also be that in places like a poor neighborhood we should be able to diminish these sort of inequities," said Evelyn Patterson, who studies correctional facilities at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tennessee.

So basically it's not that the prison system is great, it's that society at large is that loving awful.

# ? Jul 15, 2011 07:13

genderstomper58: Jan 10, 2005; by XyloJW

Pope Guilty posted:

So basically it's not that the prison system is great, it's that society at large is that loving awful.

Well, except for you and D&D activist goons of course lol

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Jul 15, 2011 07:15

Pope Guilty: Nov 6, 2006; The human animal is a beautiful and terrible creature, capable of limitless compassion and unfathomable cruelty.

So are you just here to troll or what.

# ? Jul 15, 2011 07:45

Slaan: Mar 16, 2009; ASHERAH DEMANDS I FEAST, I VOTE FOR A FEAST OF FLESH

moker posted:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/14/us-prison-blacks-idUSTRE76D71920110714

goon white guilt spin assemble!!!!

Obviously we need to make prisons worse. We can't have these subhumans having a decent life, now can we?

Think of the Children!

# ? Jul 15, 2011 08:50

Mister Facetious: Apr 21, 2007; I think I died and woke up in L.A.,
I don't know how I wound up in this place...

Slaan posted:

Think of the Children!

If they really did, the ~~poor blacks~~ disadvantaged inner-city youth would have affordable/accessible health care.

The prison/justice system is very much like the health care system: preferring to deal with the symptoms (expensively), rather than prevent the cause cheaply through education and counselling.

Mister Facetious fucked around with this message at 10:16 on Jul 15, 2011

# ? Jul 15, 2011 10:13

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

I'm sure if you looked at the gulags, Stalin tended to imprison ethnic minorities at greater rates than average too. Not that it makes it any less abhorrent, obviously.

# ? Jul 15, 2011 16:31

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

I've looked into it some, and it does appear to be pretty equally spread. But that said, it's not possible to make an analysis all groups will agree too, because
A) The soviet union was extremely ethnically diverse, so it's hard to single out a majority to make the case for "targeting" jews, arabs, tadjiks etc.
and
B) It is pretty clear that the Stalin-era Soviet Union had no real ethnic bias, in comparison to many other modern nations or empires they had no compunction jailing members of the largest ethnic groups if they were considered ideological or political enemies.

# ? Jul 15, 2011 17:00

Killer robot: Sep 6, 2010; I was having the most wonderful dream. I think you were in it!; Pillbug

If I recall it the mass internal deportations and labor camps and what have you for undesired ethnic and other demographic groups were handled by other agencies and were outside of the gulag system proper. Mostly they did this to smaller "anti-Soviet" (read non-Russian) nationalities like ethnic Poles, Finns, Germans, and so on, shipping millions of them off east where a great many died from starvation or disease.

Even in the actual client republics where they obviously couldn't just ship everyone to Siberia, there was a lot of very ethnic-based maneuverings. Khrushchev joked that they only didn't deport the Ukrainians since there were so many of them, but in reality under Stalin they sure made sure any ethnic Ukrainians living in Russia got shipped off to Ukraine "where they belonged."

A major function of military conscription was ethnic control: get the young men of this republic on bases and shipped thousands of miles from home with limited military training and plenty of propaganda push to prevent nationalist troublemaking at home, while the Russian troops were given better training, better trust, and posts where they'd be there if one of those mentioned other republics had any uprisings.

All of this, of course, does nothing to make the US prison system any better, but the Soviet Union's ethnic divides not having the exact same interplay with income and geography doesn't mean they weren't intensely there.

# ? Jul 15, 2011 17:56

Pope Guilty: Nov 6, 2006; The human animal is a beautiful and terrible creature, capable of limitless compassion and unfathomable cruelty.

When the Daily loving Mail is publishing a positive story about a prison that treats its inmates as people, the world is surely a stranger and stranger place to live in.

Norway's controversial 'cushy prison' experiment - could it catch on in the UK?

quote:

Can a prison possibly justify treating its inmates with saunas, sunbeds and deckchairs if that prison has the lowest reoffending rate in Europe? Live reports from Norway on the penal system that runs contrary to all our instincts - but achieves everything we could wish for.

On a clear, bright morning in the tranquil, coastal town of Horten, just south of Oslo, a small ferry slides punctually into harbour. I am to take a short boat ride to the sunlit, green island of Bastoy shimmering on the horizon less than two miles away. It is a curious place. There are no secluded holiday homes or elegant hotels with moorings for passing yachts. The 120 people who live there never visit the mainland, but then why would they?

They spend their days happily winding around the network of paths that snake through the pine forests, or swimming and fishing along the five miles of pebble beaches, or playing on the tennis courts and football pitch; and recuperating later on sunbeds and in a sauna, a cinema room, a band rehearsal room and expansive library.

Their commune has handsomely furnished bungalows with cable TV. The residents eat together in an attractively spacious canteen thoughtfully decorated with Norwegian art. The centrepiece is a striking 10ft long model of a Norwegian merchant ship.

If it sounds like an oddball Scandinavian social experiment, you'd be right. Bastoy is home to Norway's only island prison. I am here to scrutinise its hugely controversial approach to crime and punishment, and to do so with some knowledge; the last time I set foot in a prison was as a foolish 23-year-old man.
After my law degree, with a young man's lust for adventure, I ended up in a notoriously harsh prison in Nepal. Through crass stupidity I tried unlawfully to bring gold into the country. I wasn't in for long but the experience terrified me, which was all I needed to get my life in order. That, to me, is the purpose of a prison. Bastoy is the polar opposite.

On board the ferry I am greeted by a shaven-headed prison guard, Sigurd Fredericke, who is my guide and protector for the day.

'Don't worry,' he grins, shaking my hand with a reassuringly vice-like grip.

'Bastoy is not like any other prison you know.'

He pauses, looking furtively around the boat.

'You see that man there,' he whispers, pointing discreetly at one of the three uniformed ferry workers, 'he's one of our inmates - a murderer.'

As we chug ever nearer, and the outline of an old church steeple rises above a backdrop of pristine pines, it becomes clear that Sigurd is absolutely right. Slowly, the idyllic sight of what appears to be a quaint Norwegian village reveals itself, complete with cosy cottages, dirt roads and even horses and carts.

The first person we see on the island, on a wooden verandah outside a modern bungalow, is a man in swimming trunks stretched out on a sun lounger. Nils is 36. He was given a 16-year sentence for shooting dead a fellow amphetamine smuggler over an unpaid debt. Now he's relaxing between his shifts as a ferry worker.

'I spent eight-and-a-half years in a closed prison before moving here nine months ago and I'm much happier now,' he says, stating the obvious.

'I immediately trained to be a ferry worker. I'm going on a maritime course at university. I want to be a commercial captain when I get out. Normally all you leave prison with is two bin bags of clothes. It's like your life has been on pause. You just go on with all the bad habits you had before you went in.'

For many of us in Britain the idea of allowing a convicted murderer the freedom to work and mix openly with non-criminals is anathema. It offends our deeply ingrained ideas about prisons as a place of punishment and as a deterrent to possible offenders.

When he recently claimed of offenders that it was 'just very, very bad value for taxpayers' money to keep banging them up and warehousing them in overcrowded prisons where most of them get toughened up', our current Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice Kenneth Clarke was widely harangued for his progressive views.

A recent opinion poll showed the British public wants harsher prison conditions; they don't agree with the Government's response to over-population and reoffending by pushing through far-reaching reforms which emphasise shorter sentences while placing prisoners in a working environment.

And yet, an extensive new study undertaken by researchers across all the Nordic countries reveals that the reoffending average across Europe is about 70-75 per cent. In Denmark, Sweden and Finland, the average is 30 per cent. In Norway it is 20 per cent. Thus Bastoy, at just 16 per cent, has the lowest reoffending rate in Europe.

Of course, Norway is one of the wealthiest, most sparsely populated and most stable countries in the world, with a population of just five million, and a prison population fluctuating around 3,500 inmates, the lowest percentage in Europe apart from Iceland; surely a special case.

Even so, whatever is happening here may be condemned, but cannot be ignored. Indeed, it is being positively embraced here - Norway is planning to build more prisons like Bastoy. At the expense of our own deep-seated unease, and with the possible benefits of safer streets, dare we ever contemplate such a prison regime in the UK?

What is sure is that the inmates of Bastoy are no small-time villains on their first custodial sentence.

Once on dry land, we climb onto one of the waiting horse-drawn carts and with a shake of the reins, the driver moves off.

Lars Ulmann, 48, is a jovial former amphetamine smuggler serving five years. He begins our climb up the winding road towards the church. On the way Sigurd reveals that having previously worked as a guard in one of Norway's conventional 'closed' prisons, he left six years ago to pursue a career as a property developer. Despite the big salary, car and office, three years later he jumped at the chance when his former boss offered him a job on Bastoy.

'Working here is much more rewarding than being a property developer or a conventional prison guard,' he explains, 'because not only do the prisoners have much more freedom and responsibility, the guards do too.'

A group of inmates is raking leaves in the church grounds as we pull up outside an old white administration building. In terms of food and d�cor, its canteen alone could pass for a trendy London restaurant. Upstairs in his neat office, the prison governor, Arne Kvernvik Nilsen, is keen to explain what this bizarre place is all about.

'I believe that we as human beings, if we are prepared to make fundamental changes in the way we regard crime and punishment, can dramatically improve the rehabilitation of prisoners and thereby reduce the reoffending rates,' he says.

'Bastoy is an ongoing experiment, but I really hope the results will benefit not only Norway but the UK, Europe and the rest of the world.'

Nilsen's impressive qualifications for the job are matched by a passionate, almost evangelical zeal for what is clearly a very personal and heartfelt mission. A qualified and practising psychotherapist (specialising in the Gestalt school, which emphasises personal responsibility) Nilsen worked in the UK for a year as Lewes prison's chaplain before returning to Norway and working his way up through the probationary services. After 12 years working for the Correctional Services Department of Norway's Ministry Of Justice, he took up the post of Bastoy's new governor in 2007.

He goes on to explain that because the Norwegian penal system has no death penalty or life terms and a maximum sentence of just 21 years, Norwegian society is forced to confront the fact that most prisoners, however heinous their crimes, will one day be released back into society. As a result by far the most significant statistic for Nilsen and Norway's law-abiding citizens is that of reoffending rates.

'Both society and the individual simply have to put aside their desire for revenge, and stop focusing on prisons as places of punishment and pain. Depriving a person of their freedom for a period of time is sufficient punishment in itself without any need whatsoever for harsh prison conditions.

'Bastoy takes the opposite approach to a conventional prison where prisoners are given no responsibility, locked up, fed and treated like animals and eventually end up behaving like animals.

'Here you are given personal responsibility and a job and asked to deal with all the challenges that entails. It is an arena in which the mind can heal, allowing prisoners to gain self-confidence, establish respect for themselves and in so doing respect for others too.'

There are no cells, bars, guns, truncheons or CCTV cameras here. Bearing in mind that among those housed here are murderers and other violent offenders, it's slightly unnerving that they have access to knives, axes and even chainsaws for their various jobs on what is trumpeted as the world's first self-sustaining 'Ecological Prison.'

'I have not had one violent incident here,' the governor continues. 'One inmate did manage to escape by stealing a fishing boat one night, and his punishment was to be sent back to a closed prison.'

Downstairs it's time for midday lunch - chicken risotto (from Bastoy's expansive chicken shed), cold meats and cheese and a wide variety of salads. All the food is prepared and served by the kitchen's inmates who then sit down and eat alongside the guards, administrative staff and even the governor in the canteen.

Back in the horse and cart we climb uphill to one of two18-bedroom houses where newcomers undergo an introductory week of 'living training' (learning how to make food and clean rooms) before gradually dispersing as spaces become available in some of the more private and spacious houses scattered around.

Outside Number 52 Bjorn Andersen, a former sociology researcher who arrived at Bastoy last week after three years in a closed prison, is having a cigarette break.

'I was married to a nice girl for 20 years and we have five kids but in 2008 she came to me and said she had secretly bought a new apartment and was leaving me. I snapped and attacked her,' he says gently shaking his head.

'Thankfully she wasn't hurt but I was found guilty of attempted murder.

'This prison is much better for me because now with access to a computer and the internet I can continue the sociology dissertation I was writing before I was arrested.

'I get released in January and I feel I'll be much better prepared to go back into real society. I've already been given back many of the freedoms and responsibilities that I'll have to deal with on the outside.'

From Monday to Friday, he says, inmates are responsible for getting up in time to have breakfast, make themselves a packed lunch and be at their place of work by 8.30am. The working day ends at 2.30pm and 'dinner' is then served at 2.45pm in the main hall. The inmates are then free to do whatever they like until 11pm when they must be back in their living quarters.

The angry whine of chainsaws grows steadily louder as we pull up outside Bastoy's team of six forestry workers busily chopping logs for sale on the mainland. Sigurd explains that prisoners generally choose their area of work, which can be based on previously learned skills or the desire to acquire new ones.

The range of jobs available includes farming animals and crops, ferry working, fishing, DIY, laundry, mechanics and rubbish collecting; the prisoners are paid an average of 57 kronas (�6.50) a day.

Peter, 28, a Dutch truck driver sentenced to six years for smuggling 150kg of hashish in his lorry from the Netherlands, takes a break from his work as the team's tractor driver.

'In closed prison I was locked up for 23 hours a day, so I'm really happy with this job. I am treated very well here and in return I will treat them very well also. Of course it's never nice being in any prison but it could be much, much worse.'

With 120 inmates and 70 staff (35 of whom are guards) Bastoy is Norway's largest low-security prison but it is one of four others dotted around the country. The governor claims that it is his goal of self-sufficiency that both creates jobs for prisoners and provides them with a common purpose.

'The prison is self-sustaining and as green as possible in terms of recycling, solar panels and using horses instead of cars. It means that the inmates have plenty to do and plenty of contact with nature - the farm animals, wildlife, the fresh air and sea. We try to teach inmates that they are part of their environment and that if you harm nature or your fellow man it comes back to you.'

He adds that a significant advantage of the ecological approach is that due to low staffing levels and producing their own food and fuel, Bastoy is actually the cheapest prison to run in the whole of Norway.

'We have a price for each prison bed in this country and we are much cheaper to run than a conventional closed prison.'

The cost will be of some consolation to those who think the prisoners are having it too easy. Fifty-year-old Gunnar Sorbye, who is not an inmate but has commuted to the island every day for the past five years as the head of the carpentry, plumbing and DIY division, believes there are other consolations. Under him a team of nine prisoners learns the skills he teaches while maintaining the buildings on the island.

'If I was told that my new neighbours were going to be newly released prisoners I would far rather they had spent the last years of their sentence working in Bastoy than rotting in a conventional prison,' he says.

'I have never really felt like I am working in a prison, and nor have I ever felt the slightest bit threatened here. I think most Norwegians increasingly realise that closed prisons are the old-fashioned way of dealing with criminals and that in terms of rehabilitation they simply don't work.'

Sigurd shows me around the visiting block, which also houses the nurse, the priest, the dentist, the physiotherapist and a creche for small children. Prisoners are allowed at least one three-hour visit a week, and as is the case across the whole Norwegian prison system,' intimate relations' with visitors are also allowed. Inmates with young children are allowed day-long visits from their wives and girlfriends.

There are cardinal rules, however, even on Bastoy - no violence, no alcohol, no drugs. Should a prisoner break any of these then there are two small, well-hidden, spartan cells with heavy steel doors and blacked-out windows where they are held before being taken back to a closed prison. Sigurd tells me this place was last used two years ago for a prisoner found with alcohol in his room.

According to the governor, the principles upon which Bastoy are based can be traced back to a mixture of theories on psychology, sociology and ecology which emerged from the heady hothouse of early Seventies West Coast American academia. But the origins are even older.

'I very often quote the old North American Indian, Chief Seattle from 1854,' he grins sagely, 'Man does not weave the web of life - he is merely a strand in it. Whatever he does to the web, he does to himself.'

We visit Fred, a 55-year-old former amphetamine dealer and now a shepherd, who proudly shows off his new lamb.

'It's a very, very nice place to do a sentence,' he beams.

Next door, the cattle herder Frank, 48, a former bank worker who wrote cheques to himself, shows us his new calves. In the laundry house, 36-year-old burly bank robber Espen is busily pressing floral bed sheets.

'I grew up in an orphan house and started crime at the age of 15,' he tells me through a cloud of steam.

'I've spent 13 years in different closed prisons but a friend told me about Bastoy, so I applied to come here. It is an extraordinary place to work and learn in. For the first time in my life I feel motivated and I believe in myself - I really believe I can break my circle of crime.'

At ten past three the ferry returns to what, by contrast, seems a drab mainland. Behind us only four guards will remain for the night to oversee the 120 inmates. I'm joined on deck by the governor who is also heading home and in chatty mood.

'Because of Bastoy's results the Norwegian government is currently changing the law so that people who receive a sentence of up to four years can serve their whole sentence in a prison like this,' he tells me.

'Don't get me wrong. There will always be a need for conventional high-security prisons for people who are simply too damaged. But those people are few and far between.

'I believe the UK is going in the wrong direction - down a completely mad and hopeless path, because you still insist on revenge by putting people into harsh prison conditions which harm them mentally and they leave a worse threat to society than when they entered.

'This system actually has nothing to do with Norway specifically or this island, so I see absolutely no reason why it can't be adopted in the UK.'

Whatever you think of Nilsen - deluded do-gooding hippy, boss of a kind of Butlin's for bad boys or just perhaps a visionary genius, Bastoy's results, like the prisoners, the guards and indeed the governor, have an unsettling way of speaking for themselves.

# ? Jul 16, 2011 03:31

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Hell yes. This needs to be spread as far as possible!

# ? Jul 17, 2011 17:15

Fuck them: Jan 21, 2011; and their bullshit

Tias posted:

Hell yes. This needs to be spread as far as possible!

Good luck convincing people blinded by hate and a desire to punish that not being hateful and punitive costs less and works better.

There are people who would literally rather spend more money, more time, and not make people rehabilitated, instead keeping them hosed up, a burden on society and harmful to each other, just because they think it's bad to be 'soft on crime.'

These people are not some tiny minority either, at least where I live - Florida, USA.

# ? Jul 19, 2011 04:53

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

I know it will be hard, but.. well, would we rather that our fellow men and women suffer horribly forever?

It's not like sensible and kind people are not coming to blows with the state already.

# ? Jul 19, 2011 10:25

Pope Guilty: Nov 6, 2006; The human animal is a beautiful and terrible creature, capable of limitless compassion and unfathomable cruelty.

What gets me is that it's more humane, cheaper, and minimizes recidivism. Unless you are a horrible brutality fetishist- and that's not at all uncommon in our society- there is literally no downside. Hell, you can still get the brutality, as the article notes that the traditional closed prisons are still there, and being sent to them is apparently such a punishment that it serves as an effective deterrent within Bastoy.

# ? Jul 19, 2011 14:17

Manifest Dynasty: Feb 29, 2008

2banks1swap.avi posted:

Good luck convincing people blinded by hate and a desire to punish that not being hateful and punitive costs less and works better.

There are people who would literally rather spend more money, more time, and not make people rehabilitated, instead keeping them hosed up, a burden on society and harmful to each other, just because they think it's bad to be 'soft on crime.'

These people are not some tiny minority either, at least where I live - Florida, USA.

This is very true, and is usually a point I pick at when I have conversations with the more Conservative friends I have. If you can actually get them to engage in a little thought experiment wherein a hypothetical "resort" style prison has a zero percent recidivism rate, they will STILL prefer a harsh punitive prison that has a much higher rate. Then you get them to see that they care more about inflicting harm on a person than they do about acually protecting themselves and others from crime. It works a little, if they trust you enough to go down that road with you.

# ? Jul 19, 2011 15:24

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Manifest Dynasty posted:

This is very true, and is usually a point I pick at when I have conversations with the more Conservative friends I have. If you can actually get them to engage in a little thought experiment wherein a hypothetical "resort" style prison has a zero percent recidivism rate, they will STILL prefer a harsh punitive prison that has a much higher rate. Then you get them to see that they care more about inflicting harm on a person than they do about acually protecting themselves and others from crime. It works a little, if they trust you enough to go down that road with you.

They want to be bullies but are too weak to actually be bullies so they use the power of the state to do it for them. If you pry a little further you will also uncover that they hold some very hosed up views about morality and the role of punishment, quite similar to one a lot of Christians hold. Ie. the idea that "were it not for God's punishment / horrible prison conditions, I'd murder and rape and commit all sorts of horrible crimes because I could get away with it!".

# ? Jul 19, 2011 18:39

HidingFromGoro: Jun 5, 2006

On the 26th the EEOC is addressing guidelines on how employers can use criminal history. The background check industry is planning on having its voice heard, of course.

More than one in four Americans have criminal histories that show up on employer background checks, for more on that check out the report 65 Million Need Not Apply

quote:

More than one in four U.S. adults� roughly 65 million people� have an arrest or conviction that shows up in a routine criminal background check. According to this new report from the National Employment Law Project, these Americans face unprecedented barriers to employment. With the rapidly expanding use of background checks, employers are routinely, and often illegally, excluding all job applicants who have criminal records from consideration, no matter how minor or dated their offenses. Highlighting the widespread use of blanket no-hire policies, the report provides numerous examples of online job ads posted on craigslist, including some by major corporations, that effectively bar significant portions of the U.S. population from work opportunities.

# ? Jul 21, 2011 04:27

Justin Godscock: Oct 12, 2004; Listen here, funnyman!

Edit: Wrong thread

# ? Jul 21, 2011 04:34

Pope Guilty: Nov 6, 2006; The human animal is a beautiful and terrible creature, capable of limitless compassion and unfathomable cruelty.

But if we hire criminals, they might be able to make a go of things outside prison! Don't you understand how wrong that is?

# ? Jul 21, 2011 13:38

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Here in FL, our recent budget contained provisions for privatizing 18 prisons. However, the implementation has met an unexpected roadblock in the form of a lawsuit from the prison guard's union.

quote:

Tallahassee, FL (AP) - A union representing correctional officers is suing to block implementation of a state budget provision that would privatize 18 prison facilities in South Florida.

Florida Police Benevolent Association lawyer Hal Johnson said
Tuesday that the measure won't save the state any money but would
put about 3,800 prison guards out of work for no good reason.

Department of Corrections spokeswoman Gretl Plessinger said the
agency was still reviewing the suit. It was filed last week in state Circuit Court in Tallahassee.

The suit alleges the 23-pages of proviso language detailing the
plan is unconstitutional because it should been passed as a
substantive law instead of being put in the budget.

It also says the budget provision conflicts with an existing law
on prison privatization.

And thanks to a comment on that article, the money trail is clear as day - and it's an interesting look at how even Florida Republicans are getting sick of the plutocracy.

quote:

Geo Group gave the largest single contribution to the RPF last year. They are in the business of operating private prisons and private healthcare (Geo Care). JD Alexander (R-Lake Wales) inserted the private prison language into the Senate budget on his own without any input from anybody-except Rick Scott and the like. It's so plain to see what is happening that it should make some people question. I am a registered lifelong republican socially speaking, but this is just plain corporate cronyism. Florida residents are much better off with State Officers keeping convicted (some very violent) felons behind the fence and not some corporate entity acountable to no one except their shareholders. What little savings , if any, is not worth the risk. Think private Highway Patrol or municipal police. OK I feel better now! Good Night.

# ? Jul 21, 2011 16:25

19 o'clock: Sep 9, 2004; Excelsior!!!

HidingFromGoro posted:

65 Million Need Not Apply

I have a degree in accounting, graduated cum laude, passed the CPA exam on my first go paid out-of-pocket, engage in local amateur sports leagues, run my own business, do not do drugs, and I have a misdemeanor conviction from 2006.

The misdemeanor conviction from five years ago resulted in three days in jail and a $400 fine. Since then, though, I have not been able to get a job that had a background check. At first I wrote it off as bad interviewing and application skills, but the observable trend after all of these years and applying to probably hundreds of jobs in my field of study? If there is a background check involved, I did not get hired. I even would preempt the check and come forth with my history at the scent of a background check, and that's the last I hear from the company. It really, really sucks.

Without fail, every single job I have applied for that had no background check or never asked me about my criminal history resulted in a hire. It is the job I have today that didn't ask me about my criminal history that I just celebrated my three-year anniversary with. This is the only additional proof I really have that my applications get tossed once my background becomes illuminated. If I landed an accounting job that investigated my background then I would be able to discount the trend I've observed.

I was sentenced to three days and $400. I was not sentenced to that plus years without a job using the skills I've honed in college. I qualify to apply for having my record sealed this fall - I really hope it goes through.

# ? Jul 21, 2011 21:41

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Doesn't that still make it come up but just say "expunged" next to it?

# ? Jul 21, 2011 22:03

19 o'clock: Sep 9, 2004; Excelsior!!!

Orange Devil posted:

Doesn't that still make it come up but just say "expunged" next to it?

Michigan.gov Courts Website posted:

"Setting Aside a Conviction" Defined:
Setting aside a conviction removes a criminal conviction from the public record of the Michigan State Police, and is sometimes referred to as an expungement. The law that allows a person to apply to have a conviction set aside provides that the record be made nonpublic so that any criminal record check, made by someone other than those agencies specified in the law, would reveal no conviction.

I hope that it is precisely what it appears to be. If not then I'm going back to tending bar to make my money. At least then I get to party like a fat-cat CPA.

# ? Jul 21, 2011 22:27

HidingFromGoro: Jun 5, 2006

Read it and weep:

ALEC pushed bad juvenile polices for 25 years

quote:

The Center for Media and Democracy�s ( http://www.prwatch.org/ ) �ALEC Exposed� page contains an eye-opening roster of how bad prison and juvenile justice legislation took off like wildfire around the country beginning in the 1980s. The Center obtained more than 800 pieces of �model legislation� circulated to lawmakers by the secretive, corporate/lobby-funded American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), including many concerning prison and juvenile justice policy. Those interested in laws like Proposition 21 might want to compare the law�s provisions with models earlier advanced by ALEC.

The Center�s site includes the texts of a dozen ALEC juvenile justice proposals (see links below) aimed at promoting adult trial, tougher sentences, more detention for a wider range of juvenile offenses, and privatizing juvenile services. It�s not clear whether ALEC originated these boilerplate ideas or served as a clearinghouse for circulating state and national bills to help its interests take full advantage of post-1980 political initiatives to crack down on youth.

ALEC�s model bills reveal its strategies, beginning with standard get-tough laws and, in its Automatic Juvenile Waiver Act, a key provision later included in California�s Proposition 21: the option for prosecutors to bypass juvenile judges and �direct file� cases in adult criminal court. ALEC�s Habitual Juvenile Offender Act �strengthens the juvenile code by creating a special category of �habitual juvenile offender,�� also by providing that cases of youths 14 and older accused of repeat sex crimes, gun crimes, or other �serious felonies� could be filed directly in adult court. Its Probate Court Juvenile Trial and Sentencing Act went even further, requiring adult-court trial for certain serious offenses and allowing criminal court trial for juveniles of any age accused of felonies.

ALEC�s sloppy Post-Waiver Juvenile Sentencing Act provided �guidelines for sentencing juveniles� that required adult sentences for certain crimes, including �25 years to life� for juveniles involved in �certain high-volume drug cases� (which the act�s text failed to specify). Mandatory adult sentences would be required for juveniles who committed felonies using a �weapon,� which could include unloaded firearms, toy guns, or any object �customarily carried or used as a weapon� or which �would lead a person to believe� it is a weapon. The generic wording allowed the model law either to use existing state definitions or to substantially expand them.

Some of its bills were more onerous. ALEC�s proposed Juvenile Rehabilitation and Release Act threatened to impose indefinite sentences on certain juvenile wards by requiring state officials to �prove� that they have �been rehabilitated and no longer (present) a threat to public safety� before they can be released from custody. It�s difficult to imagine how such a requirement ever could have been satisfied.

ALEC also sought to widen the net for juveniles accused of lesser offenses. A set of bills with titles like Mandatory Sentencing for Repeated Felony Theft From a Retail Store Act and Theft From Three Separate Mercantile Establishments Act created a mini-Three-Strikes system for shoplifting, including one enhancing penalties for the new crime of Theft Using Emergency Exit to Avoid Apprehension or Detention.

In addition to getting more juveniles into the criminal justice system and keeping them there longer, ALEC sought rather haphazardly to privatize more youth services, some with federal funding. Its Juvenile Boot Camp Act provided procedures for states to get more federal block grants for �military-style basic training as an alternative to traditional methods of juvenile incarceration and rehabilitation.� ALEC�s Privatization of Foster Care and Adoption Services would require state agencies to �submit a plan to accomplish privatization statewide� of all juvenile care services within one year that would be formulated with the mandatory input of�you guessed it�private providers. The act provided for bonus awards to providers and specified that the state would still be liable for providers� violations of standards.

In short, ALEC was a driving national force in getting state after state to consider and adopt juvenile crackdown measures in ways that would profit its constituents. Those who want to study how standardized policies proliferated in the 1990s and 2000s and may again in the future should look over the ALEC measures indexed on the Center�s webpage to compare its model laws, including a number of others not reviewed here, with those that actually arrived on the books.

# ? Jul 23, 2011 06:40

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

HidingFromGoro posted:

On the 26th the EEOC is addressing guidelines on how employers can use criminal history. The background check industry is planning on having its voice heard, of course.

More than one in four Americans have criminal histories that show up on employer background checks, for more on that check out the report 65 Million Need Not Apply

Add to that convictions that may not exist.
I get clients at least once a month wondering why their potential employer thinks they were convicted of something that was dismissed or they were found not guilty of.

# ? Jul 23, 2011 07:07

Harry: Jun 13, 2003; I do solemnly swear that in the year 2015 I will theorycraft my wallet as well as my WoW

19 o'clock posted:

I have a degree in accounting, graduated cum laude, passed the CPA exam on my first go paid out-of-pocket, engage in local amateur sports leagues, run my own business, do not do drugs, and I have a misdemeanor conviction from 2006.

The misdemeanor conviction from five years ago resulted in three days in jail and a $400 fine. Since then, though, I have not been able to get a job that had a background check. At first I wrote it off as bad interviewing and application skills, but the observable trend after all of these years and applying to probably hundreds of jobs in my field of study? If there is a background check involved, I did not get hired. I even would preempt the check and come forth with my history at the scent of a background check, and that's the last I hear from the company. It really, really sucks.

Without fail, every single job I have applied for that had no background check or never asked me about my criminal history resulted in a hire. It is the job I have today that didn't ask me about my criminal history that I just celebrated my three-year anniversary with. This is the only additional proof I really have that my applications get tossed once my background becomes illuminated. If I landed an accounting job that investigated my background then I would be able to discount the trend I've observed.

I was sentenced to three days and $400. I was not sentenced to that plus years without a job using the skills I've honed in college. I qualify to apply for having my record sealed this fall - I really hope it goes through.

Well what was the crime? It matters a lot.

# ? Jul 24, 2011 03:34

Megillah Gorilla: Sep 22, 2003; If only all of life's problems could be solved by smoking a professor of ancient evil texts.; Bread Liar

I can't speak for the US, but in Australia a background check doesn't name the crime at all. You get a 'yes' or 'no' to whether the person had been convicted of anything in the last ten years and that's it.

So the crime itself is immaterial; murder, rape or too many parking tickets - all will ensure you don't get that job.

# ? Jul 24, 2011 05:23

Harry: Jun 13, 2003; I do solemnly swear that in the year 2015 I will theorycraft my wallet as well as my WoW

Gorilla Salad posted:

I can't speak for the US, but in Australia a background check doesn't name the crime at all. You get a 'yes' or 'no' to whether the person had been convicted of anything in the last ten years and that's it.

So the crime itself is immaterial; murder, rape or too many parking tickets - all will ensure you don't get that job.

In the US I'm nearly 100% sure it does name the crime. I just got an accounting job with a record (PI) and didn't feel like I was disqualified from too many jobs because of it. Now if he had a misdemeanor theft, then there was a really good chance he was denied because of it.

# ? Jul 24, 2011 07:43

19 o'clock: Sep 9, 2004; Excelsior!!!

Harry posted:

Well what was the crime? It matters a lot.

In short: got piss wasted with some fellow goons and tried closing the deal with a female bar patron on my buddy's porch. This was after pissing off a police officer by ignoring him multiple times when told to go home (he had caught me and the lady making out on a car hood). My background check comes up with "lewd, lascivious, immoral conduct." Really awesome to try and explain that one away. Even to take the CPA Exam I had to write a three page essay about it to get cleared.

# ? Jul 24, 2011 18:21

Watermelon Daiquiri: Jul 10, 2010; I TRIED TO BAIT THE TXPOL THREAD WITH THE WORLD'S WORST POSSIBLE TAKE AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS STUPID AVATAR.

What percentage of the prisons in the country are privately, on state, local and federal level?

# ? Jul 25, 2011 06:50

HidingFromGoro: Jun 5, 2006

Maine's dramatic reduction in solitary confinement (long)

quote:

The state�s new governor and corrections commissioner have sharply reduced prisoners in solitary without a rise in violence. They may have shown other states a way out of the supermax morass.

# ? Jul 26, 2011 03:02

BigHead: Jul 25, 2003; Huh?; Nap Ghost

Countblanc posted:

Does anyone have any sources handy comparing the US treatment of prisoners and similar things to that of other countries? I almost got in an argument the other day before realizing that I actually have no idea how each stacks up. I've heard vague "other countries put more money into rehabilitation" but I don't really know what that means specifically. What are the prison cultures like in other countries, both inside and out?

This is from two pages an two weeks ago, but this post has not gotten a proper response.

If you want primary sources, Michael Tonry is America's (and I think the world's) expert on comparative criminal procedure, and a quick email to him will undoubtedly lead to a plethora of good information. Tell him two of his former students recommended him.

Alternatively, just peruse his "Publications" list.

# ? Jul 26, 2011 05:53

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

drat, it's all sorts of :smith:

seeing people in the Ut�ya/Oslo bombing thread call for reinstating the death penalty and subjecting Breivik to all sorts of torture. It's really good we don't roll like that in Scandinavia, yet anyway..

# ? Jul 26, 2011 09:17

josh04: Oct 19, 2008; "THE FLASH IS THE REASON
TO RACE TO THE THEATRES"
_{This title contains sponsored content.}

Tias posted:

drat, it's all sorts of seeing people in the Ut�ya/Oslo bombing thread call for reinstating the death penalty and subjecting Breivik to all sorts of torture. It's really good we don't roll like that in Scandinavia, yet anyway..

I saw on the news he was 'being prepared for eight days of solitary confinement'. Even you, Norway?

# ? Jul 26, 2011 13:08

Akuma: Sep 11, 2001

josh04 posted:

I saw on the news he was 'being prepared for eight days of solitary confinement'. Even you, Norway?

Couldn't that be because the situation with regard to accomplices is still unclear? He told authorities that two other cells were out there. I don't think it's unreasonable to keep him away from the potential to cause more trouble for a few days, is it?

I know the tone of this thread is conducive to the knee-jerk feeling of "somebody's being put in solitary confinement? loving TRAVESTY" but it's not like they're planning to keep him locked up by himself forever. At this stage. If that were the case then I'd agree with you.

# ? Jul 26, 2011 13:12

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# ? May 29, 2024 21:12

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

It's not that uncommon. I'm from Denmark that has roughly the same judicial mindset as Norway (though the level of punishment in our sentences are through the roof in comparison), and we're the world leader in use of isolation facilities.

# ? Jul 26, 2011 13:20

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > The Prison Thread

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