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Fraction posted:
The PDF says this: BAT PDF posted:1. Dog notices trigger The only issue I see is whether you want to reward calmly looking at the target. If you were doing standard OC then by all means I think that'd be the goal. But in BAT I think the idea is for the dog to offer an alternate behaviour (they mentioned looking away, ground sniffing, or really any other type of disengagement behaviour). I wish I knew more about the procedure to give more feedback. I think the goal of BAT is that disengagement behaviour... but I can't say for sure. Good work so far! And remember to pace yourself. It sounds like you're doing very well, but try to remember that seeing any progress this soon might simply be a correlation.
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Jul 13, 2011 21:38
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a life less posted:The only issue I see is whether you want to reward calmly looking at the target. If you were doing standard OC then by all means I think that'd be the goal. But in BAT I think the idea is for the dog to offer an alternate behaviour (they mentioned looking away, ground sniffing, or really any other type of disengagement behaviour). So if I understand, ANY behaviour that is non-aggressive and directs the dog's attention away from the other dog can be marked and rewarded with space (and a bonus reward of food/toy)? There's actually a BAT seminar about an hour's drive from me on 4th August, but I only found out about it today and I'm pretty sure it'll be booked up by now. I shot them an email asking, it'd be awesome if I could go there. I'd originally attended to do two town sessions (and possibly one school end session) a day, but realised that I'd only burn myself out. With this schedule, I should be able to do at least one session (school or town) every day even when I go back to university. Sustained work over a long period of time will be better in the long run than an intense couple of weeks, right?
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Jul 13, 2011 23:01
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Whelp, while Jeff and I went on vacation without Koji, my friends used a few tactics to help their own sanity, and we've been starting to use them at home. First off, they were able to burrito wrap him under times of stress, and he seemed to just fall asleep that way. So we ordered him a Thundershirt!  I honestly didn't really want to get him one, but hearing that he did well being wrapped (and that he calms down faster when I hold him) I figured that was enough evidence as any to spend the money for it. This in conjunction with a Rescue Remedy sort of drop has seemed to help him immensely. I think my friends were heavily giving him the RR, so I've only given him a few (about 5-7 drops) 20 or so minutes before cooking, then wrap him in the Thundershirt. Tonight he was only concerned while the skillet went on and ground beef was cooking, but still needed reassurances from time to time, which is a huge loving improvement from trying to escape the death apartment. I don't know how long the drops last, but he was completely chill in the car ride home from our friend's apartment when we picked him up (though I suspect they probably gave him a fair share of RR before cooking dinner.) Does anyone know how to ween off of it (the RR)? Obviously not yet, but I don't want to have to give him this for forever every time we cook. I figured it'll just be a little easier to associate positive things with cooking again since he'll be able to focus and not try to poo poo himself scared. I almost feel like I'm cheating using this, especially since we were making progress in both the car and cooking departments, but it does make me feel a little relieved that he isn't so stressed about these things while using it.
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Jul 14, 2011 04:48
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Still carrying on with the 'take Lola to town and around kids at school closing' thing, she's doing pretty well! She growled yesterday at a dog (my fault, I think - she had seen it already and was fine, until I picked her up to get her past a line of prams, and tensed when I remembered the dog was there; she barked immediately) and today at some weird woman that was crouched in front of my neighbour's front door. Both times were quiet, uncertain growls, as opposed to her louder growl that usually turns into or occurs immediately after a bark. I was putting her in a few doorways today whilst in town, so that people were 'suddenly appearing' (but more controlled than them just appearing around street corners, as if she'd gotten overwhelmed I could have easily blocked her line of sight). She did really, really well! At one point in our walk today, she even looked at a guy in a high-vis jacket carrying a huge plank of wood, and then promptly looked back at me (I only noticed the guy was there because he drew parallel with me just as she looked at me). As Kiri Koli pointed out a couple days ago, she's definitely more likely to react to dogs than to people. But yesterday a staffie came up while we were sat on a bench (I'd seen the teens it was with and gotten more food ready, thankfully, though I didn't see the dog) and jabbed its nose right into her side. She stiffened slightly, but chose my immediately-there cupped hand full of food, a couple inches away from the dog (toward the bench), rather than reacting to it. Yay  Lola's getting more comfortable about offering me behaviours while we're out, too, especially when we're sat on the bench. She offered a down and head-duck for a few seconds even as a person walked past about three feet away--only looking at the person after she was rewarded, though she had to have heard them. I'm working on trying to get up to zero reactive episodes, for now, and I think we're doing well. Still waiting for her to have a relapse and have a really awful, bark-full day, though.
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Jul 15, 2011 23:35
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Fraction posted:Still carrying on with the 'take Lola to town and around kids at school closing' thing, she's doing pretty well! She growled yesterday at a dog (my fault, I think - she had seen it already and was fine, until I picked her up to get her past a line of prams, and tensed when I remembered the dog was there; she barked immediately) and today at some weird woman that was crouched in front of my neighbour's front door. Both times were quiet, uncertain growls, as opposed to her louder growl that usually turns into or occurs immediately after a bark. That's great, it sounds like you're making progress! Don't worry if you have a bad day, it happens. We just had a bad puppy class. There were a lot of dogs there, it was indoors, and all the more "advanced" dogs were taking up all the room, so we sort of got shoved in a corner and forgotten because there was nowhere we could participate with Psyche under threshold. I was kind of mad at the trainer on the way back and decided we were wasting the summer and not really meeting the goals I had thought we would after we moved. So your approach inspired me and I decided that I'm going to start driving Psyche to my university campus a couple times a week and walking her around there. It's summer, so it isn't really crowded, but she'll still see people (and maybe a dog now and then) and there's enough space that we can hopefully avoid her getting stressed and slowly work up to more crowded areas. We can walk around and sit on benches and watch people go by. It's a 15 minute drive and I can't bring her to the office with me so I'll have to go home to get her, but I have to stop being lazy and make it work. If we make enough progress, we may even be able to continue when the students start coming back without it just being a huge stress thing like walking around our apartment complex was.
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Jul 16, 2011 01:49
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Is there a way to teach a command like calm or settle other than just clicking for the desired behavior? I guess that sounds weird, but I'd like a catch all cue; Bailey gets fired up around new people and he can get a hard mouth when accepting treats when excited so I'd like to have a calming cue. I've tried offering calming cues as kikopup showed in one of her videos but my dog doesn't notice them or care.
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Jul 16, 2011 19:03
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wtftastic posted:Is there a way to teach a command like calm or settle other than just clicking for the desired behavior? I guess that sounds weird, but I'd like a catch all cue; Bailey gets fired up around new people and he can get a hard mouth when accepting treats when excited so I'd like to have a calming cue. I've tried offering calming cues as kikopup showed in one of her videos but my dog doesn't notice them or care. The behaviorist I go to says a lot of dogs don't really give a poo poo about people doing calming behaviors. I've worked on having a general "calm down" cue with sort of mixed success. I would turn on my Through a Dog' Ear cd and do some gentle massage on Major while saying "relax" very calmly as he settled down. I did that every day for a month or so and now if I see him start to ramp up I can tell him to relax and he sometimes will. Major is really sensitive and some times massages were too much social pressure for him so it might work better on a different dog. Teaching a specific "settle" behavior (lying with the hip kicked out to the side and head down) was a lot more successful because what I was asking was a lot more clear. I would work on your individual issues more than a generalized calming cue if I were you.
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Jul 16, 2011 19:22
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wtftastic posted:Is there a way to teach a command like calm or settle other than just clicking for the desired behavior? I guess that sounds weird, but I'd like a catch all cue; Bailey gets fired up around new people and he can get a hard mouth when accepting treats when excited so I'd like to have a calming cue. I've tried offering calming cues as kikopup showed in one of her videos but my dog doesn't notice them or care. I classically conditioned a calm cue. Just like you charge your clicker, you can charge a cue to mean "calm the gently caress down". First you pick your word. I use "shhhhh...", some people use "eaaaaasy". Second, start "charging" your word. Pair the word with periods of extreme relaxation. For instance, massage your pup when he's just about to pass out, repeating your cue over and over again nice and quietly. Find your inner zen. Now, repeat this for, oh, say 100 times. Yes, it's going to take a while. Once you've created the association don't forget to do booster sessions throughout your dog's life so the association stays strong. It won't automatically send an over-the-top excited dog into a coma state, but it should take a dog down a notch or two if they're getting out of control. /\ /\ I've had decent success with it. As Instant Jellyfish says, YMMV.
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Jul 16, 2011 19:25
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I also use 'shhhhh' as a calming cue. I do it when I'm giving my dog bellyrubs, which is when she is most relaxed and then I try to use it in other situations. I've had some success, though I'm not sure if she's really calming down because of the cue or if she's just refocusing on my voice, which she does when I talk to her. So you could try that or a cue to assume a calm position as Instant Jellyfish said. The other thing you can try is recommended by the book Click to Calm by Emma Parsons, which is to put on cue a calming signal. For example, my dog does a shake off when she's just coming out of a tense or overly exciting situation. I haven't captured it enough to put it on cue yet, but I have started rewarding her for it. So there are a couple options and which one works, if any, is pretty dog-dependent I think. We also use short time-outs in the bathroom for over excitement, if that's an option.
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Jul 16, 2011 19:57
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Moving this discussion to this thread since it is more appropriate here.Death Himself posted:I have a problem with a dog. Well, more precisely a dog has a problem with me. Fraction posted:First off, you're better off asking in the Training megathread. There are resources mentioned in the thread for reactive dogs. Unfortunately this is going beyond just getting near the dog. He is going out of his way to challenge me every time he sees me. For example: if he is sitting on the couch and I come downstairs he will leap up, run across the room and get in my way. Someone has to physically move the dog or I have to push him out of my way. He is like this around strangers too so on walks he must be kept on an extremely short leash and walked in less populated places. Oddly, when I walk him he relaxes around me. Doesn't growl and seems pretty calm. Only while I am holding the leash though. My stepsister said it might have been because he was only introduced to people a while after being born when he was adopted. Before that he only really saw his mother and siblings. I'm not sure what they do about him at their home, I just know they don't want to discipline him in a negative way (hitting, etc) but I don't know if that is the correct or incorrect thing to do. He goes on three walks a day, at least one of them with me. What can be done at this point? Space Skeleton fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Jul 17, 2011 |
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Jul 17, 2011 00:08
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Death Himself posted:Unfortunately this is going beyond just getting near the dog. He is going out of his way to challenge me every time he sees me. For example: if he is sitting on the couch and I come downstairs he will leap up, run across the room and get in my way. Someone has to physically move the dog or I have to push him out of my way. He is like this around strangers too so on walks he must be kept on an extremely short leash and walked in less populated places. So he's a young adult labrador who is only getting short on-leash walks? He's probably really frustrated and bored, on top of everything else. For the average labrador, you're looking at an hour to two hours of running each day as a minimum. My little terrier gets more exercise than that, if combining indoor play with outdoor walks. I think the first order of business would be to order him a basket muzzle, frankly. If he's already bitten you and acts the same toward you as he does to strangers on the street, then he needs to be desensitised to and walked on a muzzle for now. A basket muzzle will allow him to pant and drink, and also allow treats to be fed for good behaviour. You need everyone to be safe (and him to be happy with his muzzle on) before you can proceed, as you really do not want biting to become a more valid option than it is now. (Granted he likely only bit you because he was interpreting your push as an aggressive reaction to him, and escalated his aggression in turn.) How do your stepsister and her boyfriend react when he behaves aggressively? How have they tried to explain it?
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Jul 17, 2011 00:14
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Fraction posted:So he's a young adult labrador who is only getting short on-leash walks? He's probably really frustrated and bored, on top of everything else. For the average labrador, you're looking at an hour to two hours of running each day as a minimum. My little terrier gets more exercise than that, if combining indoor play with outdoor walks. I'll raise the issue of a basket muzzle, thanks. Ultimately something like that is not up to me. They yell his name when he starts jumping and nipping towards me/strangers but other than holding him back when he starts getting more aggressive that's all. e: The short leash thing is unfortunately unavoidable at this time. If you give him too much slack when other people are around he will jump at them, putting his paws on their chest/back while barking. His leash is a very soft material that is just a loop which tightens as he pulls. He will never pull on it though, as soon as he feels the end of the leash he will stop and come back. Space Skeleton fucked around with this message at 00:29 on Jul 17, 2011 |
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Jul 17, 2011 00:22
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Death Himself posted:They yell his name when he starts jumping and nipping towards me/strangers but other than holding him back when he starts getting more aggressive that's all. Although it's good that they don't physically correct him when he is aggressive, a verbal correction (his name being used as punishment, in this case, to reduce the frequency of the behaviour) is still not a good idea. Punishment will not teach him the correct way to behave - it only tells him how not to behave. Consider the difference between someone calmly guiding you through each step when you're learning something, being positive when you achieve the next stage and supportive if you're struggling, to someone who just says 'no' every time you're doing something wrong, but gives no indication when you're behaving correctly. Being punished only leaves a person, or a dog, confused and anxious: they only know what NOT to do, not what TO do, but their anxiety is feeding into their stress and making them automatically turn to the undesirable behaviour. Death Himself posted:e: The short leash thing is unfortunately unavoidable at this time. If you give him too much slack when other people are around he will jump at them, putting his paws on their chest/back while barking. His leash is a very soft material that is just a loop which tightens as he pulls. He will never pull on it though, as soon as he feels the end of the leash he will stop and come back. So he's on a soft fabric slip lead? He really needs to be on something with more control - and something that *won't* punish him if he tightens it. Pain can quickly trigger and/or increase an aggressive response. A good idea for dogs that need to be better controlled is either a head collar (though not if the dog is likely to suddenly pull - they can hurt the dog's neck quite badly if used wrongly) or a front-clipping harness. For now, his handlers need to start desensitising him to strangers. This is what I'm currently working on with Lola, who is nine months old and also reactive. How far away do people have to be where he notices them, but isn't overly concerned by their presence? This is what is known as being under-threshold. When the dog is reacting, he is over-threshold and can't learn -- he's just reacting. For behaviour modification, you need to keep him under-threshold (and ergo under control) at all times; this is especially important because he is a big, and quite likely strong, dog. I strongly recommend that you have the dog's handlers look at some of the following books: Emma Parsons - Click to Calm Brenda Aloff - Aggression in Dogs As well as those listed in this thread's recommended reading section.
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Jul 17, 2011 00:49
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Thanks, I'll bring this stuff up to them. Ultimately I can only make suggestions since it's not my dog, I just find myself having it around more and more.
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Jul 17, 2011 01:56
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Death Himself posted:Thanks, I'll bring this stuff up to them. Ultimately I can only make suggestions since it's not my dog, I just find myself having it around more and more. Fraction has good advice on some of this dog's issues. However, something needs to be addressed: this dog has A Serious Problem. He's bitten once already, shows similar behaviour towards strangers on the street, and the behaviour has clearly been escalating over time. It's absolutely time for you (or your sister) to hire a professional. An accomplished professional will be able to see your issues first hand and help identify triggers and tailor-make a plan to help you overcome this issue. I feel that unless there is something medically wrong with the dog (please get the dog to the vet and have him checked for pain, as well as thyroid levels) he absolutely can be fixed. However the process of fixing him may be lengthy. Look for a behaviourist who utilizes positive reinforcement and management techniques. You absolutely want to avoid trainers who will be offering corrections of any sort: corrections are not appropriate for your problem. Sorry to be a downer, but please consider speaking to a professional. We can help you find one if you're not sure where to look.
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Jul 17, 2011 05:58
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re: rescue remedy drops:paisleyfox posted:I almost feel like I'm cheating using this, especially since we were making progress in both the car and cooking departments, but it does make me feel a little relieved that he isn't so stressed about these things while using it. Rescue Remedy is a homeopathic preparation, and while it may be doing something, it's pretty improbable that it works the way it claims to. If I were you I'd take a really critical look at what exactly happens when you use it - is Koji really reacting to the stuff in the drops, or is it just that he's being given something unusually interesting and treat-ish? Also be aware that the "people quality" version of Rescue Remedy has alcohol in it - wouldn't want to turn your pup into a boozer would ya? That the advertising states flatly that it has no side effects strongly implies that it has no primary effects either. I mean, whatever works (even if it's only placebo effect) but, well, it's homeopathy. e: Death Himself posted:Fastforward to recently. It's a grown dog, still young but now a nice big beautiful dog. It absolutely hates me. I can't get within sight of him or else he goes crazy barking and growling. At first it seemed like he was more frightened than anything but over the past few weeks he has been getting more and more aggressive. This is becoming an issue because he spends all day with us as my stepsister and her boyfriend work all day and can't leave him alone or he rips up their house. It really sounds to me like you started with a bad approach (trying to intimidate him, pushing him out of the way) and well, here you are. Along with the others' recommendations of getting professional help, if you're doing any kind of positive punishment or intimidation, stop doing it immediately and permanently if it provokes this kind of reaction. He's been giving you signals that you've been ignoring. To minimize the occasions you're going to have to get past him, consider crate training or just confining him to a certain area with a baby gate or a closed door - since he tears up his owner's house I take it that he has freedom of the house while everyone's away, so that's probably a good thing to do anyway. Flesh Forge fucked around with this message at 08:54 on Jul 17, 2011 |
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Jul 17, 2011 08:40
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Flesh Forge posted:re: rescue remedy drops: Lol okay. It's not RR. It's an RR like drop. It's called Anxiety Relief, that I did not start giving to my dog, but seeing that it worked while we were gone without the Thundershirt (and the fact our friends needed to use it) and we have fed him new and weird poo poo while cooking before, yes we decided to continue using it. The only thing that has changed in the way we handled Koji while cooking is adding this to his water bowl instead of feeding him treats to try and calm him down. I'm not sure what you needed to bring to the table with this other than "lulz homeopathy".
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Jul 17, 2011 22:15
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Didn't get outside today with Lola because holy poo poo the weather  She was perfectly happy to play rainy day games a couple times, and other than that slept curled up against me, under a blanket, basically the entire day.I've been reading Brenda Aloff's fantastic 'Aggression in Dogs', and I'd really like to suggest it be added to the recommended reading section in the OP for aggression. I'm about a hundred pages in (it's nearly 400 pages long) and so far it's covered reasons for aggression, factors that influence it, how to reduce the likelihood of aggression developing, how breed influences aggression, dog communication (displacement signals, calming signals, distance increasing signals, distance decreasing signals, assertive and yielding behaviours, interpreting dog signal clusters and play behaviour), as well as the many different ways aggression can be classified. It's a seriously great book, and a must-read for dealing with reactivity. Something I came across in reading, which I think is pretty fascinating, is her classifications of aggression (taken from pages 96 to 112): - Developmental Stages - Lack of Socialization, Interspecies: caused by lack of experience with a wide variety of humans; dogs could become fearful of people in certain contexts (wearing hats or people of a different ethnicity), or be fearful of any human that they do not know well. This category usually has an easy solution, through consistently positive experiences with humans. - Developmental Stages - Lack of Socialization, Intraspecies: caused by lack of experience with other dogs, commonly seen in dogs who are removed from their mothers and littermates from between 2 to 6 weeks of age. - Excessive Breed Tendencies, or Lack of These: generally, breed-specific tendencies being carried out to their extremes. Aloff says that using your dog's breed as an excuse for their behaviour, however, is unacceptable. - Human Selection for Aggression in Dogs: whether by the dog's breed, or because people have carelessly bred dogs with undesirable temperaments together (parents with their aggressive responses). - Control Conflict Aggression: some might call this "dominance aggression", but Aloff explicitly states that this classification 'is only to be used as a very specific description of a dog who is incapable of normal social interaction.' These dogs constantly obsess about Rank Order, and take high offence to being touched, moved or pressured in any way (eg physically or mentally). These dogs aggress very quickly and with little or no warning, and their triggers may be broad and inconsistently displayed. These dogs may even offer playful behaviour to solicit attention, and then become reactive when the person they are soliciting from responds. - Dog-to-Dog Aggression: this refers not to dogs who are just very socially inept, but 'who are actively "looking for" trouble with other dogs'. Aggression is consistently used to other dogs, even when the other dog shows very clear signals, and it occurs in absence of threatening behaviour from other dogs. - Fear Aggression: this refers to dogs with a very low threshold for fear, who become defensive and may bite even when the threat is negligible or non-existent. It is characterized by fearful behaviour exhibited immediately after or during an aggressive display; by dogs that may sneak up and bite you from behind and then run away; and by dogs that really do just want to avoid a "threat", but they feel their flight option is restricted (whether because it truly is, or because they just perceive that to be the case). - Idiopathic Aggression: aggression 'for no reason'. Characterized by extreme force and violence, extreme unpredictability (the dog is CALMLY lying on your lap, and then without any trigger whatsoever, suddenly attacks you), a lack of aggression in other situations, and a look of confusion with glazed eyes immediately before an attack. This is a well documented problem in English Springer Spaniels, American Cocker Spaniels and St Bernards. - Learned Aggression: 99£ of the time, learned aggression is only part of the issue - there will also be an additional classification used to describe specific triggers (such as fear aggression or possessive aggression). This is basically from the animal learning that aggression leads to a desirable (for them) outcome. - Maternal Aggression: hormonal changes or inherited tendencies may cause a mother to launch intense attacks on strangers, whether dog or humans, who approach her puppies (this being the classification used if she otherwise would not show aggression normally), and in extreme cases may even lead to her eating her puppies. - Neophobia: dogs that react to EVERY new situation, location or object with behaviour ranging from cautious to terrified. These dogs show intense avoidance behaviours, often verging into panic, and appear to have no ability to adapt to anything unfamiliar to them. - Pain-Related Aggression: this is both aggression because of pain (for example, an injured animal biting because you are trying to manipulate it's body to move it, and that hurts) or anticipation of fear (e.g. an arthritis-riddled dog biting someone that has previously hurt them accidently whilst playing). - Play Aggression: these dogs begin playing normally, and then at a certain point their behaviour rapidly escalates, and they ignore calming responses from other dogs. These dogs must consistently display an intent to harm their playmate, and their aggression may also be directed toward human as well as canine playmates (e.g. biting flesh instead of a toy when over-stimulated, and ignoring the handler's pained vocalisations). Dogs who, because of their breed or own natural tendencies, tend toward extreme predatory behaviour are prone to this. - Possessive Aggression: dogs that use confrontational behaviour and/or displays to obtain or retain a valued object or location. The resource's importance is defined BY THE DOG, and not related to status issues (i.e. Control Conflict Aggression). Characterized by freezing when approached with this time, lowering their head and neck, and a warning may or may not be given before the dog lunges. Even as pups, these dogs will have difficulty relinquishing toys or objects that they want. - Possessive Aggression - Food Related: same as above, but framed in terms of food (guarding a food bowl, the location where the food bowl is usually stored, or high value food such as pig's ears, stolen food, etc). Both forms of possessive aggression are very dangerous, especially around children. - Predatory Aggression: the selection of human children or adults as predation targets because they perceive them as "wounded" (because the way these people move, or act, etc) and intensely honing in on them. These dogs, in the face of certain stimuli, are unable to distinguish between appropriate and inappropriate prey, and it is extremely difficult to interrupt their behaviour. Predatory Drift, a subsection of this, is a more specific dog-to-dog form, wherein dogs who under normal circumstances may live together peacefully, but 'certain stimuli trigger a limbic response where one dog begins to see the other dog as prey'. This is common in terrier breeds and herding breeds (especially herding/guarding breeds like Malinois or GSDs). - Protective Aggression: the approach of a third party provokes an aggressive response in these dogs, even when the approaching party is clearly not threatening, as the dogs are guarding a particular individual from "threats". These dogs will keep themselves between the protectee and the intruder, and will respond to low levels of stimuli with agonistic displays, which increase if the intruder comes closer to whoever the dog is protecting. Often, this begins inconspicuously enough (people encouraging their puppies to protect them when they are playing with other family members, or even simply by not-responding because they fail to read the subtle signs of their young dog guarding them - and their dog taking the non-reaction as permission), but quickly turns into more intense displays. Obviously prevalent among guarding breeds. - Redirected Aggression: wherein a dog is interrupted or prevented from directing aggressive behaviour toward an original target (another dog, a squirrel, a ball bouncing past, etc) and turns and attacks the closest or most available target. The third party (the target) could be human or animal, and it occurs frequently in multiple dog households at times of great arousal (when visitors knock on the door, for instance). - Territorial Aggression: dogs that guard a boundary (which is determined by the dog; it may be visible or invisible, stationary (such as a house) or mobile (such as a car)) from intruders, varying from a dog giving a single alarm bark when someone knocks at the door, to dogs that patrol their territory and give hugely demonstrative warning behaviours when people enter the territory. Sorry for the tl;dr, but I thought it might be interesting/helpful for people, to see exactly where their dog's reactivity comes from, which might help them start learning how to deal with it.
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Jul 17, 2011 23:04
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Fraction posted:- Developmental Stages - Lack of Socialization, Interspecies: caused by lack of experience with a wide variety of humans; dogs could become fearful of people in certain contexts (wearing hats or people of a different ethnicity), or be fearful of any human that they do not know well. This category usually has an easy solution, through consistently positive experiences with humans. These are the ones that I would say definitely apply to Psyche. In particular the developmental stages ones. I don't know exactly when she was taken from her mother and sold, but I do know that her BYB told the people who bought her that she had been isolated from people and other animals in a barn so as 'to better bond with her new family'.  I'm also interested to see redirected aggression as a category. Our trainer called it that as well when we told her that Psyche would bite us if over threshold enough and we stepped in her line of sight. I've never seen it in print before, though. It seems pretty rare, I've never witnessed it from another dog in our reactive dog classes either. I'll have to check out this book when I get through the other couple I ordered.
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Jul 17, 2011 23:24
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paisleyfox posted:I'm not sure what you needed to bring to the table with this other than "lulz homeopathy". I'm not saying it doesn't do anything, or to stop using it, mainly just pointing out that the "people-grade" version contained alcohol. Like I said, whatever works for you, no need to get defensive about it.
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Jul 17, 2011 23:32
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Kiri koli posted:These are the ones that I would say definitely apply to Psyche. In particular the developmental stages ones. I don't know exactly when she was taken from her mother and sold, but I do know that her BYB told the people who bought her that she had been isolated from people and other animals in a barn so as 'to better bond with her new family'. Ouch, I guess I didn't realise Psyche had it so bad. That really sucks for you guys. And who the hell puts a little pup on their own so they 'bond better'? Is that an Actual Thing BYBs do?I guess Redirected Aggression works as a category. I've been nipped by Lola twice now, but both times were when that part of my body was physically between her and whatever it was (first time a kid reaching for her, urgh, second time the dog all up in her face a month or so back), so I think it was more a case of an air-snap accidentally hitting me. I think these are the ones that apply to Lola: quote:- Developmental Stages - Lack of Socialization, Interspecies: caused by lack of experience with a wide variety of humans; dogs could become fearful of people in certain contexts (wearing hats or people of a different ethnicity), or be fearful of any human that they do not know well. This category usually has an easy solution, through consistently positive experiences with humans. *** Lola's mother is reactive, and several of her siblings are too, so there's obviously a genetic component to her behaviour. (I take pride in that she's less reactive and more focused on me in new situations than one of her brothers, for example.) Brenda Aloff also makes a note that terriers in general do have the tendency to be 'dog hot', so that could be another thing that makes her more display more aggressive behaviours to dogs and avoidance behaviours to people.
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Jul 18, 2011 01:01
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Fraction posted:
You got it! Thanks! Interesting and informative post to boot! Nice! Also linked in the OP.
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Jul 18, 2011 01:35
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Couple of interesting things going on in the UK media about dog training of late; Cesar Millan unfortunately became pretty influential here for a while, after everyone thought that the shift to punishment-free methods was pretty much a done deal. It's easy to limit yourself to the microcosm of dog nerds, though. Guardian Interview with John Bradshaw, pretty decent for a general interest piece Also, a bloke in Wales has been prosecuted successfully for using a shock collar. Test case really, so he got a pretty sturdy fine rather than the maximum sentence of a year in prison. I think that's going to be used more for deliberate cruelty using a shock collar, though.
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Jul 18, 2011 13:21
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Okay. I'm looking to teach Shadow a "move it" command so he can know to get his huge rear end out of the way when people are walking down stairs, walking toward him while carrying heavy things, a cyclist is speeding toward him, etc. He's incredibly retarded about moving people/objects and seems to think, "lol they won't hit me, they'll just stop or move out of the way derp-de-derp." What's the best way to go about this?
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Jul 18, 2011 17:41
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For myself, I prefer "go here" (point) rather than "don't be where you are" (letting the dog decide). The more direct you are, imo the very much easier it is to teach. e: vvvv Teaching him to follow a lure (most conveniently, your hand or pointing finger) is probably going to do what you want, i.e. getting him to move out of your way. It's very simple and unambiguous; "go to that spot across the room" is quite a bit harder. e2: prolly oughta provide a link eh: http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/lurereward-training Flesh Forge fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Jul 18, 2011 |
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Jul 18, 2011 17:48
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That's probably a better idea, yeah. Except my dog does NOT seem to understand pointing at all, at least not with his "go get it" command.  Maybe in the context of a "go here" would be easier for him though. One thing that irritates me about this dog (though yes, it is my fault) is he only understands commands in VERY specific circumstances. Was he taught a command while I was standing in front of him? Then I can't be standing anywhere else for him to follow that command because "hurrr that's not how yew taught me!" Was he taught a command in the dining room on a cloudy Tuesday afternoon? Hurrrr, can't do the command again unless it's in the dining room on a cloudy Tuesday afternoon. Obviously that was an exaggeration but you get my point. Still gotta get to work on teaching commands at a distance like a life less gave me tips on.
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Jul 18, 2011 18:25
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Skizzles posted:One thing that irritates me about this dog (though yes, it is my fault) is he only understands commands in VERY specific circumstances. Was he taught a command while I was standing in front of him? Then I can't be standing anywhere else for him to follow that command because "hurrr that's not how yew taught me!" Was he taught a command in the dining room on a cloudy Tuesday afternoon? Hurrrr, can't do the command again unless it's in the dining room on a cloudy Tuesday afternoon. Lola is basically the opposite of Shadow. Dogs aren't supposed to generalise, but she just seems to get, once a behaviour is on a reliable cue in one situation, she is supposed to do that behaviour on that cue in other situations. She will perform a newly learned cue in another context (eg living room vs the park) on about a 95% immediate success rate. Also I'm so pleased with her. We just went up town quickly -- we saw two cats chasing each other and although she really wanted to Get Them I could break her focus and cue her to do stuff; we saw four different dogs and played a little BAT with each of them (including a staffie attached to a bike, and another that was OFF LEAD on the main road and RAN into the main road as the dog's owner shouted across to me that the dog wouldn't cross the road); and she also had to deal with a pair of 8-9 year old girls cooing to and staring at her. The latter she bounced toward, but I broke her focus before she barked and we ran away. Sometimes I wish I had a 70lb Rottweiler instead of a 13lb JRT. Maybe then people wouldn't squeal at the sight of her
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Jul 18, 2011 18:51
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Skizzles posted:That's probably a better idea, yeah. Except my dog does NOT seem to understand pointing at all, at least not with his "go get it" command. On top of teaching Shadow more "do go here"s instead of "don't go here"s, you could work on body awareness. Backing up and pivoting are pretty helpful, and it doesn't come naturally to a lot of dogs. More advanced exercises are things like "touch with your hip" and "touch with your shoulder". I've not taught these to Cohen (only touch with nose, front paws, and back paws), but in a dog Shadow's size I bet they could help. Also, use a bed or a mat (and charge it the same way you would a crate) and use that as his home base. To work on his ability to interpret your pointing, once you've got him comfortable on one mat, introduce two or more, and work on sending him to one or the other with a point and a verbal cue.
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Jul 18, 2011 19:29
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Fraction posted:Sometimes I wish I had a 70lb Rottweiler instead of a 13lb JRT. Maybe then people wouldn't squeal at the sight of her You'd be surprised. Major is a 75 lb supposed rottie mix and I've had both children and adults start coming towards him while he's actively barking and lunging at them. So many people just assume all dogs are friends  Skizzles I thought my roadblock to heed physical pressure by just walking in to him (just slightly, barely touching him) and as soon as he move away even a bit I clicked and treated. Eventually he figured out where his body was and where to move it. I also taught him "back" so he can scoot back on command with a similar technique and "go ahead" to go up or down stairs in front of me if I'm holding something by tossing treats ahead and encouraging him to go.
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Jul 18, 2011 19:52
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Skizzles posted:One thing that irritates me about this dog (though yes, it is my fault) is he only understands commands in VERY specific circumstances. Was he taught a command while I was standing in front of him? Then I can't be standing anywhere else for him to follow that command because "hurrr that's not how yew taught me!" Was he taught a command in the dining room on a cloudy Tuesday afternoon? Hurrrr, can't do the command again unless it's in the dining room on a cloudy Tuesday afternoon. Just so you know, this is not your fault. Dogs don't generalize well. We love them, but they just don't. It will take a while to get him to understand that he can sit not only in one specific room, but in ANY room. This is just something that most dogs tend to do and you should definitely not blame yourself for it.
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Jul 18, 2011 21:28
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Well I only put some of the blame on myself because I felt I should have worked on it more, reinforcing the behavior in different scenarios and positions and whatnot. But, yeah, I know most dogs are... well, dogs. Instant Jellyfish, my dog gives no fucks about me barreling through him until he stumbles out of the way, but maybe if I start rewarding when he moves and pair it with a verbal cue it'll get through his head. I think I'll try the "go here" idea first though.
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Jul 18, 2011 21:42
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I have two training issues that I need some help with. First off I have a 1 1/2 yr and a 2 1/2 yr old Dachshund. Both of them are trained well, all the basics (sit,stay,etc), crate trained, they are both submissive to me, go on frequent walks every other day. My issues is they both go outside to go pee easily but then they have a habit of coming inside and pooping almost every other day. My wife and I can leave our dogs outside for 30 minuets and they will come inside and poop 10 minutes later, almost always in the same spot. How do I get them trained to poop outside, pee is not a problem, they have never done that in the house. I have tried treats when they poop outside along with praise and affection. My second problem is we leave them outside for a extended period of time in the hopes they go poop but all they do is eat old poop and pecans we have all over the place. This causes them to randomly throw up at 2am so I get to wake up and clean it. How can I train my dog to ignore the pecans which are causing them to throw up? Cleaning them all up will not work due to having so many trees it would be short of impossible to get them all. They know not to eat them because when i walk towards the dogs they spit out whatever they have in there mouth and go submissive. I just need to figure out a training method to accomplish this all the time when I am not outside for 30 minutes with them. Edit: my dogs are on a pretty set schedule, the wake up about the same time, eat at the same time and go outside every 2 hrs. Rythe fucked around with this message at 15:05 on Jul 19, 2011 |
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Jul 19, 2011 13:25
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Rythe posted:I have two training issues that I need some help with. First off I have a 1 1/2 yr and a 2 1/2 yr old Dachshund. Both of them are trained well, all the basics (sit,stay,etc), crate trained, they are both submissive to me, go on frequent walks every other day. My issues is they both go outside to go pee easily but then they have a habit of coming inside and pooping almost every other day. My wife and I can leave our dogs outside for 30 minuets and they will come inside and poop 10 minutes later, almost always in the same spot. How do I get them trained to poop outside, pee is not a problem, they have never done that in the house. I have tried treats when they poop outside along with praise and affection. If they are pooping in the same spot that probably means they can still smell where they went last time. Pick up an enzymatic cleaner, I can vouch for Nature's Miracle (found at Petsmart and Petco, probably other pet stores too). If they don't poop while you have them outside, take them on a walk until they do. Quick walking seems to stimulate bowel movements. When they poop outside, praise them like they shat gold! For the pecan problem, I'd first start teaching leave it* and drop it* inside. Outside, keep the dogs on a short leash (work with one outside at a time) and practice the commands when they go after the pecans. As for old poop, you just have to clean up the poop as it comes. It's a pain, but obviously it's better for their health and sometimes the best training is just prevention. *My links aren't the best, it's just early and they were some of my first google results. I disagree with giving the very treat you tell him to leave, I would keep a different kind of treat in your other hand to reward with so that he understands "leave it" and not "wait for it", and I'm not sure how I feel about "checking" but eh. edit: Actually I just learned that Nature's Miracle's original formula is now sold under the name Petastic. The creators of it split up and one got the NM name and the other got the formula. I still use NM but I guess Petastic might be better? vvv Your dog poops a lot o_o Damn Bananas fucked around with this message at 15:20 on Jul 19, 2011 |
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Jul 19, 2011 15:12
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Rythe posted:I have two training issues that I need some help with. First off I have a 1 1/2 yr and a 2 1/2 yr old Dachshund. Both of them are trained well, all the basics (sit,stay,etc), crate trained, they are both submissive to me, go on frequent walks every other day. My issues is they both go outside to go pee easily but then they have a habit of coming inside and pooping almost every other day. My wife and I can leave our dogs outside for 30 minuets and they will come inside and poop 10 minutes later, almost always in the same spot. How do I get them trained to poop outside, pee is not a problem, they have never done that in the house. I have tried treats when they poop outside along with praise and affection. 1. Housebreaking is about stopping the dogs from making a mistake while creating a preference for what you do want. Right now your dogs clearly have a preference for going inside. The treats and praise you've offered haven't been enough to break that preference for indoors, and each time they're allowed to poo inappropriately it's strengthened. First, clean that spot with an enzymatic cleaner like Nature's Miracle. If you've been scrubbing it with traditional cleaners then there are still trace elements left over that the dogs can smell that indicate to them that this is where they poop. Second, you're going to be limiting their access indoors so they don't have the opportunity to sneak off and poo. Tether them to you, or crate them if you can't offer the dogs 100% of your attention. Watch for signs of sniffing and then hurry them outdoors to where you do want them to poo. If they do poo, throw a party. If it's a false alarm reset and try again. Also consider gating off the room where they always poo -- but this is secondary to the tethering/crating. Basically you're giving them too much freedom if they're still making GBS threads in the house. Putting the dogs on lockdown for a few weeks/months while your problem is fixed will payoff for the rest of their lives. Do your dogs have a poop schedule? For instance, mine will poo about half an hour after I get up, then on once around 3pm, and once around 9. If you know when they go you'll be able to predict when you should bring them outside for an opportunity to poo. 2. Training your dog to ignore something readily available when you're not around is just about impossible. Training is all about controlling reinforcement, and when the reinforcement is laying by the hundreds in your backyard then, well, you don't stand a very good chance convincing them to do something else. Also, they probably don't know not to eat them. If anything they know that if you see them eating them they risk punishment. First, pick up the poo in the backyard. You may not be able to pick up all the pecans, but the poos should be less numerous. Second, I would limit the amount of time they're left unsupervised in the yard. You can't control your dog's behaviour when you're not there, but you can when you are. Go out with them. Put them on long leashes if you feel like it. Watch to make sure they don't eat those pecans. This is where you can employ drat Bananas' suggestion of "leave it" and "drop it". My dog loves mullberries, or whatever the gently caress is littering our sidewalks right now. I need to give her a preemptive leave it when we approach a bush, and I need to keep her away from the bushes in the park. It's a huge pain in the rear end and an uphill battle. It's all about being preemptive and managing the situation.
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Jul 19, 2011 15:18
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Thanks for the info about the cleaner I am going to go pick that up today and spray all the areas they have pooped. They where on a set schedule for poo but due to a multistate move recentley I think that has screwed them up. Ill make sure they are supervised outside and try to get them to poo regurarly. I figured as much about the pecans, they will not even look at them when I am with them and the understand stop and drop them if they do grab one. Looks like I am going on poo patrol this weekend too. Thanks for the advice on the poo let's see how it goes.
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Jul 19, 2011 16:14
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How do I train my dog to show us where the cat is hiding?
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Jul 19, 2011 17:40
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Emasculatrix posted:How do I train my dog to show us where the cat is hiding? I taught my pup to go to and physically contact (either target with her nose or paw) my other dog, by shaping her in small increments. C/t for looking in Jess' direction, for any movement toward her, for clearing a short distance to her, for touching her in any way, and then adding a cue and proofing. If I tell Lola to "find your sister!" she will go running and pounce at poor Jess' head. I imagine you could do something like that (maybe just stopping at the stage of going toward the cat, so the cat doesn't get pissed off by being bounced at), though it will definitely be quicker and therefore less stressful if your dog is already clicker-savvy and knows to interact with objects, etc, when clicked for it.
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Jul 19, 2011 23:29
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I need to train my parents. Not my parents' dog, my parents. They have long been watches of Cesar Milan (I know) and think he's a miracle worker, because the dogs stop what they're doing when they TSSSSST at them. (Never mind that they go DIRECTLY BACK to the behavior after the fact, it works for a moment!) This wasn't so bad with their older beagle, Buddy. He was a mellow dog who was pretty well trained when they got him. And then my dad decided he wanted a dog that would "play fetch and give kisses" (I know) so they got a year-old boxer mutt, Maverick. Maverick is too much for my parents to handle, but they staunchly refuse to give him up. Okay, fine. They say they want "Cesar training" with him, because he pulls on the leash and barks and is crazy. I know he gets two hour-long walks a day, with the other dog and is let out to run in the yard several times a day. My parents see me as a "cat person" and though I recently suggested that my mom take treats on the walks with her to get him to focus, that's the best I've been able to do. She rejects clicker training outright. Too much information is seen as "overwhelming" and me being a know-it-all. Books are right out, as they won't read them. What I'd like to ask for is a simple, direct article or link about the first stages of training a dog, especially a young bully-mix like Maverick. Something that might open their minds away from Cesar and help them see the value of positive reinforcement. TL;DR- my parents are ruining their dog and won't listen. Any suggestions?
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Jul 20, 2011 01:21
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http://www.ted.com/talks/ian_dunbar_on_dog_friendly_dog_training.html That one did it for me, hope it helps. Edit: Actually, this is the first one that got me onto clicker training http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJP9QCXhL1k Postess with the Mostest fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Jul 20, 2011 |
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Jul 20, 2011 01:54
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| # ? May 16, 2024 08:35 |
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That's a pretty awesome video. But I bet money people like Susan Calvin's parents are gonna be those people with selective hearing who will get hung up on "But he's talking about the dog training us and making us its slave! WE CAN'T LET THE DOG THINK THAT, IT MUST THINK WE ARE DOMINANT, RABBLERABBLE!" Still totally worth a shot, though.
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Jul 20, 2011 02:18
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