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Wikipedia Brown posted:And it's still way more interesting than Quake 2. What are you talking about? Quake 2 had that story about being in space and... uh... there were Rail Guns!
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Jul 19, 2011 17:52
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Hal Incandenza posted:What are you talking about? Quake 2 had that story about being in space and... uh... there were Rail Guns! And who could forget the part where you had to get to the thing?
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Jul 19, 2011 17:56
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moms pubis posted:And who could forget the part where you had to get to the thing? "poo poo! Some cowboy just cut me off!" <- The only thing I remember from Q2.
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Jul 19, 2011 17:58
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True, and it did have great characters like Bitterman and the Makron.
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Jul 19, 2011 17:59
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moms pubis posted:And who could forget the part where you had to get to the thing? I remember getting the thing! I think it was in that grey corridor, does anyone remember that corridor? It had that guy with the gun in it.
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Jul 19, 2011 18:07
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hypo-crit posted:I remember getting the thing! Of course! 
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Jul 19, 2011 18:12
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hypo-crit posted:I remember getting the thing! No, you're thinking of the room with the cool coloured lighting effects. The corridor outside the room with the cool coloured lighting effects didn't have the thing, but it did have the guy with the gun.
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Jul 19, 2011 18:12
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so I could say that I finally figured out what this god damned cube is doing. Get well Lowtax.
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tooooooo bad posted:I feel like you guys are thinking about this more than id ever did. I suspect that Tom Hall both thought and cared more about this aspect of the game than the thread so far, and got fired for his troubles. Kind of a shame that the guy hasn't done more mainstream games instead of following Romeros wacky ventures around, it seems everything he ever worked on ended up pretty awesome.
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Jul 19, 2011 18:15
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moms pubis posted:Why is the storm troopers leg on the gun? 
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Jul 19, 2011 19:16
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tooooooo bad posted:I feel like you guys are thinking about this more than id ever did. That could never be true. The Doom Bible that Tom Hall was working on is almost Zybourne-esque. http://5years.doomworld.com/doombible/
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Jul 19, 2011 19:19
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Roobanguy posted:Why is the storm troopers leg on the gun? That level takes place inside Escher's Relativity.
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Jul 19, 2011 19:21
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Roobanguy posted:Why is the storm troopers leg on the gun? Because Jedi Outcast is janky. Also, am I the only person who really loving hates Quake 2's level design? Seriously, it's unspeakably awful and confusing to a degree that not many other games match.
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Jul 19, 2011 19:23
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WickedIcon posted:Also, am I the only person who really loving hates Quake 2's level design? Seriously, it's unspeakably awful and confusing to a degree that not many other games match. You're not alone.
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Jul 19, 2011 19:29
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iastudent posted:You're not alone. Too lazy to watch right now, but the fact that he actually made an LP and it was good enough to get archived shows that he clearly didn't have the same problem I did (having absolutely no goddamn clue where to go because everywhere looks like a horse shat all over it).
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Jul 19, 2011 19:34
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WickedIcon posted:(having absolutely no goddamn clue where to go because everywhere looks like a horse shat all over it). This is actually the schtick of the LP.
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Jul 19, 2011 19:42
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WickedIcon posted:Too lazy to watch right now, but the fact that he actually made an LP and it was good enough to get archived shows that he clearly didn't have the same problem I did (having absolutely no goddamn clue where to go because everywhere looks like a horse shat all over it). Getting an LP archived is not really a matter of quality - more of a matter of catching an archiver's eye.
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Jul 19, 2011 19:44
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bbcisdabomb posted:Getting an LP archived is not really a matter of quality - more of a matter of catching an archiver's eye. One of mine is in there so that's for drat sure.
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Jul 19, 2011 19:45
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Q2 is weird because it's SP is weaker than Q1 (which was just slapped together in a few months) and it's strength back then, multiplayer, is completely outclassed by Quake 3 today. Its like it tried to be great at both SP and MP, but fell flat on both counts (in retrospective. At the time it was considered incredible). I think this can be seen today; the Quake 2 community consists of a few odd MP servers and no real work on mods and levels, while Q1 and Q3 are still quite active. SP had too much focus on collecting stuff. I don't mind grabbing a keycard or two, but it starts getting silly after a while when every hub boils down to you having to travel through an entire series of levels in order to grab an overglorified keycard. I liked the Big Gun level because it didn't try to bullshit you with collecting "the tactical security Pyramid key" or whatever; it gave you a boss, a switch to press after killing him, and then running like hell to the exit.
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Jul 19, 2011 20:09
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Quake 2's levels are an unhappy mix between realistic-style Half-Life-like design, and the abstraction of Quake. It just doesn't work at all, you have these realistic layouts, but none of the immersive detail that HL had, and none of the flat-out insane traps and fun that Quake had.
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Jul 19, 2011 20:11
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Finally finished Doom. It's kind of a low-effort game, really. There's no characters and next to no plot; the levels are abstract and never get any more interesting than "find key, use key on door", nor is there any attempt at coherence or consistency across levels; even the engine is primitive. All it has going for it is shooting a lot of demons in the face. Fortunately, it does that last really, really well, with the result that it ends up being a lot of fun - especially with Brutal Doom installed. Also, a special dose of ALL OF MY HATE goes out to Thy Flesh Consumed. Whoever thought that "most of the level is covered in lava, so you have to grab a hazard suit and do absolutely everything required before it wears off or the level becomes unwinnable, and then there's a Cyberdemon at the end" would be a good gimmick not just for a single level, but for an entire episode, deserves to be flogged. moms pubis posted:One of mine is in there so that's for drat sure. The LP archive is blind to quality; all that is required is that the LP be completed on the Something Awful forums, and that someone contact the Archive and point it out. And that it not be a Dwarf Fortress LP, for some reason.
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Jul 19, 2011 20:12
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ToxicFrog posted:Finally finished Doom. It's kind of a low-effort game, really. There's no characters and next to no plot; the levels are abstract and never get any more interesting than "find key, use key on door", nor is there any attempt at coherence or consistency across levels; even the engine is primitive. All it has going for it is shooting a lot of demons in the face.
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Jul 19, 2011 20:26
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Sombrerotron posted:Yeah it's pretty disappointing for a shareware shooter from 1993, really. Yeah, it kind of is. Playing those games first is why I was originally so disappointed by Doom when I first played it back in 1999, and given those comparisons, yeah, I feel that calling it "low-effort" is pretty apt. Since then, however, I've come to realize that sometimes, I don't care about setting or plot or characters or level design; I just want to shoot things. And at that, Doom excels.
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Jul 19, 2011 20:36
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ToxicFrog posted:Yeah, it kind of is. Playing those games first is why I was originally so disappointed by Doom when I first played it back in 1999, and given those comparisons, yeah, I feel that calling it "low-effort" is pretty apt.
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Jul 19, 2011 21:01
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WickedIcon posted:Too lazy to watch right now, but the fact that he actually made an LP and it was good enough to get archived shows that he clearly didn't have the same problem I did (having absolutely no goddamn clue where to go because everywhere looks like a horse shat all over it). As ClonedPickle says (and why iastudent linked it), the LP is just one big rip on Quake 2. It is only half-seriously played, with an amateur analysis of why it was inferior to earlier games and an analogue of Daikatana built under a polar opposite design philosophy.
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Jul 19, 2011 21:23
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First of all, I'm not sure why the fact that it's shareware is even relevant. Should shareware games be held to a lower standard or something? Secondly, of those games, three of them (Pathways and both Underworlds) predate Doom, and the other two came out less than a year later - just before and just after Doom II. Finally, I'm not saying that they didn't put a lot of effort into the actual implementation of the game; I'm saying that it's a low-effort design. Tom Hall may have spent half a year writing the Doom Bible, but in the end none of that got used; they basically said "gently caress it, let's do Wolfenstein 3d again except better". While other developers were experimenting with actual storylines and characters, sophisticated rendering engines, gameplay elements more complex - and interesting - than pure shooting, and levels that actually resemble places, Id decided to reprise a design document that was basically "there is a player, there is an exit, there are a shitload of monsters between the player and the exit, repeat 24 times". The fact that it was wildly successful and is still fun today does not change the fact that it's a remarkably lazy design. They just implemented it really well.
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Jul 19, 2011 21:23
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The worst thing about Quake 2 was how it was broken and missing features when it came out. Waiting for those "point releases" sucked. I remember trying to play multiplayer on the retail build...  The best thing about Q2 was how the mod scene took off with it. Quake got the ball rolling with that stuff, but it really blew up with Q2. I have fond memories of QPong, Action Quake 2 and Jailbreak in particular. Roobanguy posted:Why is the storm troopers leg on the gun? To a jedi, the Z-buffer means nothing. Shart Carbuncle fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Jul 19, 2011 |
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Jul 19, 2011 21:50
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Quake era 3D polygonal games looked like a bag of rear end, anyway. Might have been impressive at the time, but I can sit down today and play vanilla doom and have a lot of fun with it. I can't sit down today and play vanilla Quake I without feeling compelled to mod it to make it look better. In this sense, Doom won out IMO. It aged better, despite being technically inferior. On an unrelated note, I have a huge urge to re-install and play Unreal. I have the intro sequence burned into my brain. PRISONER 4..7..2.... Escapiiiiinnn..
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Jul 19, 2011 21:51
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ToxicFrog posted:levels that actually resemble places Hey now, the levels in Doom and Doom II may be highly abstract on account of the primitive engine, but they definitely resemble places. Doom II gets very very abstract in a couple of levels, but most of them are recognizable. Funkmaster General posted:Quake era 3D polygonal games looked like a bag of rear end, anyway. Might have been impressive at the time, but I can sit down today and play vanilla doom and have a lot of fun with it. I can't sit down today and play vanilla Quake I without feeling compelled to mod it to make it look better. In this sense, Doom won out IMO. It aged better, despite being technically inferior. I think Quake aged reasonably well, considering that most of levels are sort of pseudo-medieval castles and dungeons, the low poly count really doesn't matter much. Then again, I don't really get all the Quake 2 hate either. I absolutely loved it back when it was released and I still replay it from time to time. It was loving amazing when it came out.
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Jul 19, 2011 21:57
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closeted republican posted:Q2 is weird because it's SP is weaker than Q1 (which was just slapped together in a few months) and it's strength back then, multiplayer, is completely outclassed by Quake 3 today. Its like it tried to be great at both SP and MP, but fell flat on both counts (in retrospective. At the time it was considered incredible). I think this can be seen today; the Quake 2 community consists of a few odd MP servers and no real work on mods and levels, while Q1 and Q3 are still quite active. Mod-wise, it was stuck in an awkward spot since Quake 1 was much easier to mod and Quake 3 was tremendously more capable, especially since Quake 2 was out at a time when free C compilers for Windows were a bit hard to come by. I think LCC was out at the time, but that was dawn-of-the-Internet search-engines-barely-exist era whereas Quake 1 and 3 just included the compiler with the SDK. quote:I can't sit down today and play vanilla Quake I without feeling compelled to mod it to make it look better. I don't see how Unreal aged well though considering all of the weapon/enemy/character models and particles in it in it look like complete rear end. OneEightHundred fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Jul 19, 2011 |
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Jul 19, 2011 22:01
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ToxicFrog, you might want to read this article and figure out why your comparing of Doom to System Shock and Ultima don't really hold any ground. How a game looks and behaves is only part of the formula. The other is how it feels.
Mak0rz fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Jul 19, 2011 |
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Jul 19, 2011 22:14
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ToxicFrog posted:While other developers were experimenting with actual storylines and characters, sophisticated rendering engines, gameplay elements more complex - and interesting - than pure shooting, and levels that actually resemble places, Id decided to reprise a design document that was basically "there is a player, there is an exit, there are a shitload of monsters between the player and the exit, repeat 24 times".
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Jul 19, 2011 22:21
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Funkmaster General posted:Quake era 3D polygonal games looked like a bag of rear end, anyway. Might have been impressive at the time, but I can sit down today and play vanilla doom and have a lot of fun with it. I can't sit down today and play vanilla Quake I without feeling compelled to mod it to make it look better. In this sense, Doom won out IMO. It aged better, despite being technically inferior. I can't play either without using software rendering, I HATE the lovely smoothing they do to textures in OpenGL, and high-res textures don't look good on low-poly models.
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Jul 19, 2011 22:28
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Reive posted:I can't play either without using software rendering, I HATE the lovely smoothing they do to textures in OpenGL, and high-res textures don't look good on low-poly models. This. Quake 1 in software rendering makes it look gritty, just as it's supposed to. Hardware rendering in Quake 2 shits all over the textures. I have no idea how they hosed that one up, but it makes all of the models look like loving blobs.
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Jul 19, 2011 22:32
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Reive posted:I can't play either without using software rendering, I HATE the lovely smoothing they do to textures in OpenGL, and high-res textures don't look good on low-poly models. You realize that you can disable the smoothing in GZDoom right.
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Jul 19, 2011 22:33
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tooooooo bad posted:You realize that you can disable the smoothing in GZDoom right. 95% of peoples complaints with GZDoom come from people not bothering to look at the option menus, because you can customize and tweak almost everything to your personal preference.
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Jul 19, 2011 22:35
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100 years from now, the world will remember that Doom, Tetris and Mario are 3 games that are still played. They are just the most pure, perfect versions of games. I also believe that all games are just a combination of Doom, Mario and Tetris, in some way or another.
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Jul 19, 2011 22:45
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OneEightHundred posted:I don't see how Unreal aged well though considering all of the weapon/enemy/character models and particles in it in it look like complete rear end. It didn't (at least not in the graphics department), but I have enough nostalgia for Unreal that I can overlook that, which isn't the case for Quake I, unfortunately. I'm totally willing to admit it looks like rear end, though, whereas I genuinely still think Doom looks fine, good even, with only a few exceptions (the bushes on certain outdoor levels, for example).
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Jul 19, 2011 22:49
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I have no nostalgia for Unreal (I didn't play it until last year) and I think it looks fantastic. On the other hand, I grew up during the N64 era, so I think that's why I have a thing for dated 3D. Plus I played the Gold version which has high res textures that the original release didn't, I think.
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Jul 19, 2011 22:53
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Mak0rz posted:This. Quake 1 in software rendering makes it look gritty, just as it's supposed to. quote:Hardware rendering in Quake 2 shits all over the textures. I have no idea how they hosed that one up, but it makes all of the models look like loving blobs. OneEightHundred fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Jul 19, 2011 |
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Jul 19, 2011 22:55
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hippieman posted:100 years from now, the world will remember that Doom, Tetris and Mario are 3 games that are still played. Pfft, those games are too abstract and don't have levels that resemble places. They will never last.
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