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Regarding Arya: No one is going to be a faceless man with no history of being Arya. However, Nymeria will still remember Gregor, Meryn, Dunson, Cersei, etc. in her wolf dreams. Everyone on that list is getting eaten by a pissed off she-direwolf.
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Jul 19, 2011 21:39
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priznat posted:Were there any hints that Coldhands may be Benjen Stark? I kept an eye out but didn't see any. Not really. The only things we really have are: 1) Benjen's body hasn't been found (which isn't a huge shocker in any case) 2) He is clearly in some way dedicated to the Watch 3) It's been remarked and made obvious that the zombies have some memory of either who they were or general things going on around them So we could speculate that Benjen, being probably far more devoted to the NW than most of his fallen compatriots by virtue of having chosen to serve there despite having other options, as well as having Stark blood and as such being related to the First Men yadda yadda, could well have risen as a wight and then still had enough of his old loyalties in his head to resist whatever crazy mind-altering poo poo happens to other zombies.
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Jul 19, 2011 21:39
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priznat posted:Were there any hints that Coldhands may be Benjen Stark? I kept an eye out but didn't see any. It seemed likely the first time he appeared because Benjen had recently disappeared, but I don't think there has been anything more direct than that. In Dance with Dragons I kind of got the impression that Coldhands had roaming the woods for a lot longer than Benjen had been missing.
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Jul 19, 2011 21:43
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Jon could come back as a "good" wight. Wouldn't that be interesting.
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Jul 19, 2011 21:43
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priznat posted:Were there any hints that Coldhands may be Benjen Stark? I kept an eye out but didn't see any. None. Since the Last Greenseer is Bloodraven, a former Lord Commander of the NW, it's entirely possibly he could just be some old buddy of his. Coldhands' identity isn't particularly important.
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Jul 19, 2011 21:43
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Ray_ posted:Merman = Manderly
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Jul 19, 2011 21:43
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TomWaitsForNoMan posted:And the visions in fires coming true point to Rhllor being real, and from the Bran chapters we know that the Old Gods are real, although they perhaps no longer fit the traditional definition of "god". There will never be solid proof that any of them are real, in my opinion. I don't think GRRM would do that. Clearly magic is real and all over the place, but I don't think we'll find out whether it actually derives from gods, or whether it's just some natural force. The Seven is an interesting case though... most of the religions seem to at least have some type of magical tradition that goes hand in hand, but the Seven have nothing like that. Why would you convert to the religion that is clearly fake when the others can at least boast magic powers?
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Jul 19, 2011 21:45
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Re:Coldhands=Benjen; Doesn't Bran know what Benjen looks like?
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Jul 19, 2011 21:46
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euphronius posted:Jon could come back as a "good" wight. Wouldn't that be interesting. I wanna see a heartwarming tale where Jon Snow travels north and discovers that the Others weren't actually that bad all along, they were just misunderstood, gentle giants.
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Jul 19, 2011 21:46
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Reo posted:Re:Coldhands=Benjen; Doesn't Bran know what Benjen looks like? It's specifically mentioned that Coldhands wears a scarf over most of his face and that Bran couldn't make out any facial features besides the eyes.
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Jul 19, 2011 21:48
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Also regarding my Arya theory: Meryn, "Gregor" and Cersei are all together right now. And we know Cersei, sometime soon, will be crossing the Riverlands (Nymeria's hunting grounds) to return to Casterly Rock. Perhaps something will go bad? Theory 2: everyone on her list continues to die, without her involvement (see Gregor, Joffrey, etc.) and she returns to Westeros with no opportunities for her old vengeance. However, there's still plenty of bad people committing atrocities. And an adult Arya totally cuts through all of them. e: am I crazy, or was there supposed to be a 5 year time skip in this book? It seems like only a few months passed, at best.
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Jul 19, 2011 21:48
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priznat posted:I would like to see their employee handbook 
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Jul 19, 2011 21:48
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Reo posted:Re:Coldhands=Benjen; Doesn't Bran know what Benjen looks like? I thought he was all hooded up because otherwise they would have seen his glowing blue eyes right off the bat and freaked out.
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Jul 19, 2011 21:48
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Tony Danza Claus posted:e: am I crazy, or was there supposed to be a 5 year time skip in this book? It seems like only a few months passed, at best. Originally there was going to be one, yes. Now we just have to suspend disbelief as Arya becomes a super-assassin in 1 year, Sam learns to be a Maester in 2, Bran becomes a wizard in 6 months, etc.
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Jul 19, 2011 21:49
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geeves posted:You rock  
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Jul 19, 2011 21:49
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Reo posted:Re:Coldhands=Benjen; Doesn't Bran know what Benjen looks like? I think his face is covered. And it seems like if there were any hint that he was Benjen then either he or Bran would have brought it up at some point.
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Jul 19, 2011 21:50
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Pretty sure Coldhands doesn't have the blue eyes of a wight
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Jul 19, 2011 21:56
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Lord Hydronium posted:For all the analysis this line has gotten, I just read it as Patchface nonsense. I mean, he does make occasional true prophecies, but I figured that they were mixed up with his equivalent of "in Soviet Russia" jokes. I think people are reading into it because Merman is definitely house Manderly, and he has already eaten one set of characters, while there are many more we HOPE he will eat (preferably Ramsay.....alive)
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Jul 19, 2011 22:09
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I think that Cold Hands is Bloodraven warging into a wight, and his identity is pretty much meaningless. That seems more likely than Benjen somehow staying somewhat human after turning into a wight. It also explains why he didn't notice his hands until someone else mentions it. The fact that he killed the black brothers following them could also support it. Remember that Bloodraven likely knows that the Night's Watch men following them are betrayers of the order, and if Bloodraven still considers himself of the Watch he would want to kill them as oathbreakers. Why would Benjen want to kill Black Brothers unless he witnessed the events at the Fist? That seems much less likely than one of Bloodraven's ravens seeing it.
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Jul 19, 2011 22:40
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hypocrite lecteur posted:Why does Tyrion keep telling people he killed joffrey? Just because he doesn't care and it's going to be laid at his feet anyways? The evidence points to the Tyrells otherwise doesn't it It's pretty much what Jaime did after he killed Aerys. He knew that trying to explain his rationale would earn him no sympathy and just make things worse for him, so he went all "yep, I'm the Kingslayer  " even though it bothered him. Tyrion is smart enough to realize the same thing and the circumstantial evidence surrounding the incident is fairly damning so rather than wasting his breath he's just running with it.
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Jul 19, 2011 22:46
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Aurubin posted:Dormant virus waiting for a suitable carrier? Dunno. In unrelated news, was the ending of War of the Worlds revolutionary for its time or did HG Wells not know how to end it? And suddenly...GERMS! THE END From a few pages back and a tangent, but the answer to your question regarding War of the Worlds is: it's a metaphor for imperialism. The aliens are the British army, the humans are the indigenous people, and the germs are the cholera and dysentery that wreak havoc upon the foreign invaders. On topic, I finished the book a few days ago and enjoyed it a lot. "Words are wind" was obnoxious as was the GRRM's continued insistence on listing every dish at every meal, but otherwise, I liked pretty much everything. Tyrion's travelogue down the Rhoyne was the kind of world building fluff that I love in fantasy. Watching him turn those mercs was classic. Dany being dumb is to be expected, and girl was too mary-sue to learn her lessons without hitting rock-bottom first. And I liked what little dragon action we got. I think the Mereen plot moved forward very well for what is basically a set-up book for the last act. poo poo is ready to blow there, with Tyrion and his mercs, Jorah and his forces, Victarion and his fleet, and Dany and her dragon plus possible new horde. In a book where every plot ends on a cliff hanger, that's as much as I expected to happen. I'm totally convinced that Jon is AA now. I like that he has vision and is reasonably competent, albeit a bit naive, but All in all, I thought it was a pretty good book. GRRM's descriptive prose is still clunky, and he still includes excessive incidental details, but the plot continues to twist, the characters continue to be interesting, and the world continues to be fantastic.
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Jul 19, 2011 22:59
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Everyone at Winterfell besides the Freys were extremely shaky on their loyalty (and even the Freys would turn on the Boltons if poo poo went bad). Stannis was all but beaten by the snow (lol Hitler/Napoleon). But him and his remaining force, the arriving northmen, and the Manderlys could overcome Bolton's sad little force. Plus, if Roose won, that means Stannis, the banker, Theon, Asha, Jeyne, Wyman, Mance, Lady Mormont, and several others I'm forgetting, that we've followed for a while, or had just been set up for later events, are all dead or dying, whether killed, captured, seized (Wyman and Mance) or ran away into waist high snow in the middle of nowhere. I refuse to believe GRRM would just write in all this new stuff and then erase it all offscreen. Especially when the letter we base this all on hits a few notes that make it seem authentic, but could just as easily have been written by anyone who's spent any time with Ramsay. Is it Mance who sent it? Maybe. But there's also several Maesters there, and we've been learning lately that those fuckers are playing their own game. Dun-dun-DUUUUUNNNNNNN
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Jul 19, 2011 23:24
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Well, we've known for quite some time that the Maesters are up to their own business. There have been hints in previous books of some anti-magic/pro-(pseudo)science agenda. But making it so clear could hint that the Maesters are involved. I, however, tend to think it's intended to remind you of the intrigue that's shaping up down in Oldtown. It could be Ramsay. He could be misinformed by Northmen he still thinks are loyal to him. Or he could just be holed up in Winterfell, surrounded by a hostile force, and gambling on a way out. It's mentioned quite a few times that even in its present condition, you don't need a lot of men to hold Winterfell against a large force. Heck, maybe Roose is behind it. Dude is clearly a schemer, and while I can't think of a reason for him to pretend he's Ramsay, I wouldn't put it past him to come up with one.
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Jul 19, 2011 23:31
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I thought it was funny in the epilogue how they mentioned that cercei's trial is to be in five days. Assuming that the next book is going to cover that, it's kind of jarring to wait 2 or 3 years for a book only for it to pick up a mere five days later. I agree the letter is probably fake, but as someone said before, what motivation would Mance have? Would he want to lure Jon away from the wall for a chance to lord over his wildings again, this time on the right side of the wall? Where is he doing it from if stannis won? Would Stannis cozy up to Mance if they were both at winterfell, and could mance get off a bird in secret if they were? You all are pissed at dany now, but holy jesus is her dragonriding rear end gonna be sweet at the head of a screaming horde pinning the yunkai to the sea to get slaughtered by victarion. The next book will probably be better than Storm.
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Jul 19, 2011 23:34
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I can't see Arya becoming a true Faceless Man. For all her training and learning to call herself "no one," I don't feel like she's really losing her identity. Unlike Theon, Arya doesn't seem to be internalizing her lessons. She's also becoming more aware of her warging abilities (seeing through the eyes of the stray cat), and she understands the advantage of keeping her hidden ace a secret.
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Jul 19, 2011 23:43
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Maybe Mance wants to lure Jon into a fight and kill him (so now he has something in common with the Dornishmen-- he's too late); he's already proven that he can beat Jon's rear end in a fight. I think we tend to assume Mance is a stand-up guy because all the Wildlings look up to him, and Jon respects and even admires him. But Mance got to be King by breaking oaths and being a ruthless badass. He's also not above scheming and screwing over allies, as demonstrated by his working with Mel. Then again, I don't know what Mance's plan could be for after Jon is dead. He's also proven himself to be forward-thinking and a survivor. He wouldn't set up a fight with Jon in front of Stannis's host if he wasn't sure he could walk away. He might be banking on Jon coming with Wildlings, but even if Jon brings a force, he's already seen Stannis's knights slaughter a Wildling army. Another problem with this theory is that even if Jon did answer the letter and travel to Winterfell (presuming he didn't get stabbed or he decides to go after he comes back from being stabbed), why would he agree to a duel with Mance? What would be the point of dueling him? And yeah, I agree about Dany. Mereen is about to explode.
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Jul 19, 2011 23:48
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Also, I'm rereading the winterfell scenes again and I'm slightly confused by the timeline. Men are dying, theon is cleared and then confronted by mances women as the horns and drums start. the next day, the boy is killed (by manderlys men?), all hell breaks loose and then roose reads a parchment that says stannis is a three days ride away. the men assemble and ride out? So who was blowing the horns? Was it mentioned and I missed it? One thing i found interesting was the the last we saw of either Boltons and Mance was Mance singing them a song as the Boltons men went to assemble. Perhaps he captured them there?
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Jul 20, 2011 00:08
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Lord Hydronium posted:For all the analysis this line has gotten, I just read it as Patchface nonsense. I mean, he does make occasional true prophecies, but I figured that they were mixed up with his equivalent of "in Soviet Russia" jokes. What occasional true prophecies has he made? I can't recall.
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Jul 20, 2011 00:08
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meanolmrcloud posted:I agree the letter is probably fake, but as someone said before, what motivation would Mance have? The way I see it, Mance has a ton of motivation to harbor animosity against Jon (betrayed him, killed wildlings, brought news of their plan to the Wall) and probably even more against Stannis (broke the wildling attack, possibly contributed to his wife's death [yeah she died in child-birth, but having a battle going on outside your tent isn't likely to improve your situation, and may have prevented medical help from arriving/being there]). That said, Mance at this point also kind of needs Stannis and the Watch to hopefully hold the Others & Co. (with whom Mance is very familiar). That's really the only thing that is making me doubt that it's Mance's letter. Without the threat of the Others pouring over the Wall, I have no trouble seeing him trying to gently caress Jon and Stannis over.
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Jul 20, 2011 00:15
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meanolmrcloud posted:You all are pissed at dany now, but holy jesus is her dragonriding rear end gonna be sweet at the head of a screaming horde pinning the yunkai to the sea to get slaughtered by victarion. The next book will probably be better than Storm. I wish, but nothing Dany has ever done has been sweet (except for eating a heart) and nothing ever will. Everyone else around does cool stuff though. At least Jorah, Belwas, and Barristan. Maybe Joffrey was on to something. Dany's "weak womans heart" leads her to do stupid poo poo in the name of compassion.
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Jul 20, 2011 00:18
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Habibi posted:What occasional true prophecies has he made? I can't recall. I know he foresaw the Red Wedding at the very least, something about fool's blood, king's blood, and the guests and groom being put in chains EDIT: looked it up, it was "Fool's blood, king's blood, blood on the maiden's thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye aye aye."
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Jul 20, 2011 00:21
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bigmcgaffney posted:I wish, but nothing Dany has ever done has been sweet (except for eating a heart) and nothing ever will. No, I think Danys last chapter was meant to be some dramatic breaking point in which pain and suffering lead to revelations-in-character or development and such. I still don't hate her character because GURM is trying to make her a dumb girl trying to do right. I was screaming 'use the loving dragons' along with you guys, but if you don't see why she wouldn't you don't really get his angle for her. Her rebirth on the spot of her rebirth will probably have told her not to gently caress around. She has the tools but now, more importantly, also has had the failings it takes to become a really good leader. She (HAS HOPEFULLY) learned when it's proper to pander and when it's proper to kick some rear end. It'll probably start with her first chapter in the next book using the dragons to with this Khal over and then she will go 'hey, these dragons are GOOD for something' and then apply that to all her problems.
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Jul 20, 2011 00:27
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Patchface also has some stuff about (presumably) Mel's shadows: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Prophecies/Entry/1801/meanolmrcloud posted:Also, I'm rereading the winterfell scenes again and I'm slightly confused by the timeline. Men are dying, theon is cleared and then confronted by mances women as the horns and drums start. the next day, the boy is killed (by manderlys men?), all hell breaks loose and then roose reads a parchment that says stannis is a three days ride away. the men assemble and ride out?
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Jul 20, 2011 00:35
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I can't see how anyone seriously expected or wanted Dany to actually use the dragons (unless they wanted her to fail, which I could agree with if it meant that Daario died). Sure, she shouldn't have kept them literally locked in a pit, but chances are that they'd die if she decided to use them to destroy the Yunkish navy or army seeing as how they are not even large enough to carry a person yet. And that's assuming that she'd even be able to make them attack the enemy, the dragons would most likely go eat some delicious children instead. There just seems to be some people who are all "Dany should torch just the enemy with her kid-dragons and win the war in minutes  "e; It'll be interesting to see how much control Dany actually has over Drogon if/when we get the next book. Kainser fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Jul 20, 2011 |
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Jul 20, 2011 00:38
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withak posted:I think his face is covered. And it seems like if there were any hint that he was Benjen then either he or Bran would have brought it up at some point. If I recall correctly, Leaf said Coldhands died a really long time ago. And if Leaf is hundreds of years old I don't think Coldhands could be Benjen since her frame of reference to time is so different. Unless Leaf was refering a "really long time ago" to mean the time since GoT was first published...
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Jul 20, 2011 00:52
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Any chance Jon ends up warging into Theon? It would complete his redemption and allow him to finally become a Stark. As well as allowing his conciousness, which is so damaged, to essentially die. Actually maybe not, that would be way to good of a fate for a character in this series.
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Jul 20, 2011 01:02
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I think one of the first things hooded Cersei does is go after Bronn with her new queensguard.Thoguh posted:Any chance Jon ends up warging into Theon? It would complete his redemption and allow him to finally become a Stark. As well as allowing his conciousness, which is so damaged, to essentially die. Theon Greyjoy, the ravaged eunuch cripple who can't eat solid food?
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Jul 20, 2011 01:12
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Yeah, that would be lovely for both Theon who would lose his chance to reclaim his life and Jon who would get a lovely body. So I guess it's possible. And Theon isn't an eunuch, his dick was just tortured 
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Jul 20, 2011 01:17
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I think the banker was my favorite random new character. He was a completely unexpected badass, riding off into the winter storm to find Stannis, with just a couple random companions of unknown loyalty.
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Jul 20, 2011 01:20
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meanolmrcloud posted:Also, I'm rereading the winterfell scenes again and I'm slightly confused by the timeline. Men are dying, theon is cleared and then confronted by mances women as the horns and drums start. the next day, the boy is killed (by manderlys men?), all hell breaks loose and then roose reads a parchment that says stannis is a three days ride away. the men assemble and ride out? I just caught that Manderly killed Little Walder because he was engaged to marry his grandaughter that spoke out in favor of the Stark's when Davos was speaking with the court of White Harbor.
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