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Unoriginal Name posted:I read it. I just think that after Theon did the exact same thing with his relatives, in the exact same place no less, it doesn't particularly fit with his character to decide to ride out all of a sudden. Especially when he's been struggling to draw a clear line on how far he will go to help Stannis. He works so hard to get men on the Wall and creates a truce between enemies that have fueded for who knows how long and he just leaves it? I could see him writing to other allies to try and get them to help. But just leave his post and take Watch men with him? Leaving a shitload of undisciplined wildlings with less than a skeleton crew watching them before he decides to take a bunch? This. ^^ Your sister is possibly held hostage by a violent bannerman with a large army at your disposal. Also some threats. Possibly. Do you 1) Gather more intelligence to ensure that the information is true and figure out the correct course of action. 2) Scheme to make a wildling army interfere on your behalf. 3) Scheme to make Stannis' remaining army interfere. 4) Send scouts, assassins or other agents to interfere on your behalf. 5) Consult the Priestess who can see both the future and geographically distant events. 6) Make a series of lies regarding your whereabouts, enabling you to interfere without losing political power and endangering the delicate situation at the wall. or 7) None of the above and flee the wall. You will lose almost all your political power and facing charges of death for fleeing from all those who oppose you.
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Jul 20, 2011 11:29
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withak posted:No poo poo. "Hey marry me and I guarantee that that the rebels will stop fighting for 90 days," should have resulted in him getting locked up as obviously being a leader in the rebellion. Yeah man insurgencies always die away immediately on imprisoning people. People rightly hate the Dany chapters for being boring as hell, but marrying that guy to bring peace to the city was one of the few sensible decisions made. It's not that different from westerosi nobles marrying into each others families to forge alliances/peace after conflict.
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Jul 20, 2011 12:13
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tekz posted:Yeah man insurgencies always die away immediately on imprisoning people. People rightly hate the Dany chapters for being boring as hell, but marrying that guy to bring peace to the city was one of the few sensible decisions made. It's not that different from westerosi nobles marrying into each others families to forge alliances/peace after conflict. Conflicts between noble houses are different from attempting to impose a different culture on a city which fundamentally rejects emancipation. Neurosis fucked around with this message at 13:57 on Jul 20, 2011 |
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Jul 20, 2011 12:27
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Toplowtech posted:Bloodraven is a greenseer probably because Bloodraven's real name is Brynden Rivers, son of Aegon IV and Mylessa Blackwood. House Blackwood of Raventree Hall is one of the oldest house in the riversland, dating from the first men, and is also one of the last houses south of the Neck to still follow the Old Gods. Why didn't they convert? Their arms are a flock of ravens on scarlet surrounding a dead weirwood upon a black escutcheon, it's like a giant "we are wargs" sign. It would also explain why Lord Blackwood don't want his 8 years old daughter to be taken as a hostage at King's Landing in Jayme's Chapter. Why didn't he want his daughter to go? He sent his freakishly tall middle son, but I always thought it was abit  that some lords apparently valued their daughters more than their sons, instead of the incessant "She could give him another son, she as not too old" or "To hold his own son in his arms". Also, I still don't get that whole greyscale leprosy colony suddenly jumping out on to the boat. It just seemed like some random cursed monster place I didn't expect to read about in a GURM novel.
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Jul 20, 2011 13:22
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tekz posted:Yeah man insurgencies always die away immediately on imprisoning people. People rightly hate the Dany chapters for being boring as hell, but marrying that guy to bring peace to the city was one of the few sensible decisions made. It's not that different from westerosi nobles marrying into each others families to forge alliances/peace after conflict. Jon Connington had one of the wiser moments in the series: If all else fails, ask yourself: what would Tywin Lannister do (WWTLD)? The answer, in Dany's case, is probably to change that ridiculous "blood price" to something a little more persuasive. At that point, she's got a ton of discreet opposition, but nobody seems to worry about open revolt. The former slaver lords don't seem to have any bargaining chip beyond the threat of sabotage and collaboration. So, every night there's a Harpy murder, you burn one pyramid to the ground, or hang the head of one of the families, or if you're really squeamish you take something serious like 10% of their wealth instead of a fine.
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Jul 20, 2011 13:30
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NihilCredo posted:Jon Connington had one of the wiser moments in the series: If all else fails, ask yourself: what would Tywin Lannister do (WWTLD)? Shakhaz (spelling - the Shavepate, of course) loving ruled for this stuff. It was a never ending tide of  .
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Jul 20, 2011 13:59
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Is there a collection of all the non-ASOIAF books? I'd like to read the Dunk and Egg stuff, but unless I'm searching the wrong poo poo I can't even find real copies, much less digital copies. The more I dig into the universe the more I wonder just how the gently caress Gurm keeps up with all this poo poo. Reading the books again and using the wiki at the same time will open up a whole new world.
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Jul 20, 2011 14:12
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Victarion is the best character in Dance. "Boy whores wearing perfume? What the hell is this? Into the ocean you go!" Then follows that up by giving the girl whores to his men as salt wives and taking the best 7 girls, burning them alive in a fishing boat to make an offering to three religions at once. And it works!
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Jul 20, 2011 14:15
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EC posted:Is there a collection of all the non-ASOIAF books? I'd like to read the Dunk and Egg stuff, but unless I'm searching the wrong poo poo I can't even find real copies, much less digital copies. There is no collection at this point. I only got my hands on the graphic novel of the first part. I've content myself with reading the summaries.
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Jul 20, 2011 14:24
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Unoriginal Name posted:I missed that when I read it. I thought when he went into the Shieldhall and read the letter he had asked everyone present if they would go with him.Taking wildlings only makes that quite a bit better. Thanks! His decision to intervene is perfectly understandable when you realise that he's on the edge between boyhood and manhood, he has stood by and seen his family destroyed (no matter how hard done by he feels), he has actual emotions since he isn't a robot disguised as the Lord Commander and now he has a real, close, opportunity to help one of them. His "I won't make anyone come with me" speech was an exercise in sophistry however, though maybe not intentional; he might have succeeded in deluding himself.
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Jul 20, 2011 14:48
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Jon already ran away once when - I think - he learned either Ned was beheaded or that Robb was taking an army south. It's not like this unprecedented. Plus he is a little young to be L.C. I don't think Mormont was expecting to die so soon.
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Jul 20, 2011 14:52
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hampig posted:His decision to intervene is perfectly understandable when you realise that he's on the edge between boyhood and manhood, he has stood by and seen his family destroyed (no matter how hard done by he feels), he has actual emotions since he isn't a robot disguised as the Lord Commander and now he has a real, close, opportunity to help one of them. Seems silly when we had a chapter dedicated to him resolving to be a harder man. Obviously he failed, but that seems kind of dumb. I also thought the originally planned scene where Jon hanged Janos from a 300 foot rope was more awesome than the beheading, even if hanging would go against what Ned had taught Jon.
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Jul 20, 2011 14:52
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Pwnstar posted:Victarion is the best character in Dance. "Boy whores wearing perfume? What the hell is this? Into the ocean you go!" That was indeed quite awesome. I may have missed some further details, but I also like how you can kinda pick out "the 7" from his choices (jet black for stranger, young for maiden, old for crone, big tits for mother). Also, god I really hope Osha/Shaggydog hosed up Rickon and he's almost entirely wolf (feral child). "Come on Rickon, we're going back to Winterfell, come to Uncle Davos." *snarl* *rips Davos' throat* * howls*
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Jul 20, 2011 14:58
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hhhmmm posted:Your sister is possibly held hostage by a violent bannerman with a large army at your disposal. Also some threats. Possibly. Do you Dude, did you read the book? Ramsay doesn't have her. She's made her escape. Ramsay thinks she's with Jon. Jon knows she isn't and that Stannis' army may be destroyed, so there's no safe place for her to go. That was the point of the letter. There's no "interfering" to be done. It's not "interfering" at all. It's a search and rescue mission for his only remaining sibling in hostile territory. He wisely doesn't even mention Arya in his speech in the Shieldhall. There's a good reason for that: if the wildlings got a hold of her first, they'd have a powerful trump card over his head. I can't really blame you for having a completely unrealistic list aside from #5 and maybe #6: after all, you seem to think that Ramsay has fake Arya and Jon is "fleeing" from the wall to go battle him for her. He surely should have consulted Mel, and for all we know he was going to right after talking to Seleyse about her (probably not) dead husband. He DID lie, only about his intentions and not about his location. Lying about that doesn't work and puts him in the same position anyway because he's the Lord Commander and his place is on the Wall. He could MAYBE say he's going to the Shadow Tower to talk with Ser Dennis, but then his brothers will question why he's bringing so many wildlings, nobody from the Watch, and why they're marching south instead of west. Not to mention he'd be intentionally lying to the wildlings that he needs to fight for him in case they run into Bolton search parties also looking for Arya. Again, taking a short break to go find someone that's lost in the snow doesn't quite equal full-on oathbreaking in my opinion. Unfortunately he was stuck: Either tell them the truth about why you want to go, or lie about it. If you tell the truth the NW probably sees it in a better light, but the wildlings probably don't volunteer to go with you like they did...and now they know that if they get their hands on Arya first, they've got Jon by the balls. If you lie the NW looks on it as borderline desertion, but you get your own wildling army to find Arya with and kick the rear end of any Bolton search parties you stumble upon. The first saves your honor and your vows, but almost guarantees that you don't save your last remaining sibling and condemns her to a life of being definitely raped/maybe flayed by Ramsay. The second shits all over your honor and lightly pisses on your vows, but you stand a good chance at finding your last remaining sibling and delivering her to safety. So, in keeping with the finest Stark tradition, Jon chooses to put someone he loves before himself. He chooses a loved one's needs (in this case, her life) over his own life/honor. Just like his father. Just like his brother. How is that not in character again?
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Jul 20, 2011 15:01
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Neurosis posted:Seems silly when we had a chapter dedicated to him resolving to be a harder man. Obviously he failed, but that seems kind of dumb. I guess it's just something that kinda bugs me with discussion of the series. Jon makes basically one mistake, caused by human emotion, and people are all that's not what he's done in the past. It's kinda the whole point. There are precisely two characters who always make the smart decision in this series - Varys and Littlefinger - and even them I hesitate to put on the list. It always seems pretty conspicuous to me when some characters make questionable, emotional, decisions and get off scot free (from reader condemnation that is) while others are stupid for doing the same kind of thing, or even less. It's just seems weird to me, because I've always felt that one of the main strengths of the series is that the characters are human and flawed. I can't really agree that those flaws are just in for narrative convenience.
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Jul 20, 2011 15:08
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After reading the Mystery Knight, Bloodraven must be even more of a wizard supreme than the folk tales made him out to be, given that he communicated almost instantly with a minor pawn(s) of his (or at least one of the pawns was him, but probably not). I guess the 7K does hate sorcery. Look forward to this, Bran. Edit: Although I did find it interesting that Bloodraven in ADwD says that they used to name children after him. Perhaps he was not that reviled by the common people. Neurosis fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Jul 20, 2011 |
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Jul 20, 2011 15:11
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Unoriginal Name posted:Targaryen loyalists and mercenaries land near Storm's End. Dany flies. Once. The wildings now help man the wall. Stannis is working on taking the north. My exact feelings. For the HBO series, I expect them to condense AFfC and ADwD into one season. Both books were boring as gently caress.
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Jul 20, 2011 15:25
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Neurosis posted:After reading the Mystery Knight, Bloodraven must be even more of a wizard supreme than the folk tales made him out to be, given that he communicated almost instantly with a minor pawn(s) of his (or at least one of the pawns was him, but probably not). I guess the 7K does hate sorcery. Look forward to this, Bran. There's a pretty strong theory that one of the knights that talks to Dunk is in fact Bloodraven. Someone posted it in this thread. Found it! Toplowtech posted:The theory is that Ser Maynard Plumm is Bloodraven in some sort of disguise because:
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Jul 20, 2011 15:45
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Yeah, I picked up on that ergo why I said (or at least one of the pawns was him), although I can't be sure if he was Plumm or not. I thought probably not as I read on and saw Bloodraven's reaction to Egg/Dunk at the end, although the blurriness really does tend to suggest it was him. Either way, Bloodraven loving rules and shooting a rebellious relative for attempting to murder a good king should be praised.
Neurosis fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Jul 20, 2011 |
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Jul 20, 2011 15:47
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Epée posted:My exact feelings. For the HBO series, I expect them to condense AFfC and ADwD into one season. Both books were boring as gently caress. Yeah, I really can't see the material in these books deserving more than a season. Good TV just can't meander around like these two books did.
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Jul 20, 2011 15:53
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DFu4ever posted:Yeah, I really can't see the material in these books deserving more than a season. Good TV just can't meander around like these two books did. Did you watch the remake of Battlestar Galactica? I don't know how they are going to do Meereen. There are (arguably) too many characters for a book. For TV that is way, way too many characters. My guess is Hizdahr will become the main antagonist.
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Jul 20, 2011 16:08
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Here's how to do Meereen: Don't.
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Jul 20, 2011 16:18
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Someone linked this to me and I couldn't stop laughing.quote:Is Maester Luwin still alive?
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Jul 20, 2011 16:35
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Well he is one of the only maesters who has studied magic...
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Jul 20, 2011 16:44
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So, show of hands: who's re-reading it? By the way, Mereen sucks of course, but the Shavepate is pretty badass. He's pretty much the only good Mereenese. I didn't pay much attention to him the first time around, but now that I'm re-reading he stands out a little more.
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Jul 20, 2011 16:56
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Ray_ posted:So, show of hands: who's re-reading it? I'm rereading the whole series, and may I say, it flies through pretty well when you skip every Dany chapter. Though I may be a young girl, knowing little of the ways of intelligent reading.
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Jul 20, 2011 16:57
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Pwnstar posted:Here's how to do Meereen: Don't. All the political squabbling in Meereen would make for great HBO drama, though.
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Jul 20, 2011 16:58
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I actually like Dany's chapters, because she reminds me a lot of Lawrence of Arabia. Both are virtuous foreigners trying to liberate a land resistant to their 'enlightened' position, and their larger-than-life egomania becomes a source of strength and weakness. Selmy's POV nailed it; Dany's still a girl with youthful fantasies, like Quentyn's fantasy of being a dragon-rider to win Dany's favor. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. On the other side is the Shavepate, who really does seem to come from the Tywin Lannister school of getting poo poo taken care of. I don't remember anyone objecting to the efficacy of his brutal methods, just the ethics of it all. I expected him to go rogue, disobeying Dany's orders and start killing hostages. I'm trying to remember, doesn't Tywin even say that he's had to do things Robert wouldn't have done because kings can't stomach having innocent blood on their hands, but are perfectly willing to let others do it if they can rule?
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Jul 20, 2011 17:12
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He was talking about the murder of Rhaegar's kids, iirc.
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Jul 20, 2011 17:23
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Azure_Horizon posted:All the political squabbling in Meereen would make for great HBO drama, though. The Meereen story would make a decent mini-series or something, I suppose. But it would be tough to make worthwhile without devoting a whole lot of time to it. My hope is that they figure out a way to pare it down to a handful of scenes and focus more on the various groups that are trying to reach Dany instead. Shaveplate and Selmy seem to be the only characters in Meereen that I really gave a poo poo about.
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Jul 20, 2011 17:26
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I've finally figured out what bugged me about the book. It wasn't the creaking pace of things in Meereen, though that was bad too. It was the apparent epidemic of plot stupidity. So Dany, you went up to a man with tons of history in Meereen and tons of personal connections to your enemies, who you don't really know much of anything about at all, and offered to make him to most powerful man in the realm? And your price was 90 days of peace from the DAILY murders and attacks, and somehow, even though it was already his loving job to keep the peace, attacks drop off completely and instantaneously once you make this request? BOY, THAT'S NOT loving SUSPICIOUS AT ALL. What exactly was it she even thought he did do to stop the attacks? She doesn't seem too curious about how it happened. So Jon, a woman who has demonstrated repeatedly that she can see the future tells you that you're in imminent personal danger. You've been taking a bunch of really controversial actions. You notice that Ghost is extremely agitated for no apparent reason which has never happened before, ever, and totally write it off -- even though your brother did the exact same thing right before he died. Genius. I dunno, I just felt like the books have successfully avoided plot stupidity up to this point, and all of a sudden it's just everywhere. I still enjoyed the book though.
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Jul 20, 2011 17:29
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tekz posted:Yeah man insurgencies always die away immediately on imprisoning people. People rightly hate the Dany chapters for being boring as hell, but marrying that guy to bring peace to the city was one of the few sensible decisions made. It's not that different from westerosi nobles marrying into each others families to forge alliances/peace after conflict. If you are trying to track down people involved in the insurgency, it seems like a good idea to suspect the guy claiming that he can make it stop as soon as you give him what he wants.
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Jul 20, 2011 17:34
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To be fair, Jon's stupidity was a little less glaring, since Melisandre was a woman who was attempting to kill children and kings prior to that, and I'd be a little less predisposed to believing child murderers in general. She was also an advisor to a king who had not seemed kindly disposed towards him or the Watch prior. I get why Jon didn't trust her. Him attempting to break his vows a little less.
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Jul 20, 2011 17:35
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withak posted:If you are trying to track down people involved in the insurgency, it seems like a good idea to suspect the guy claiming that he can make it stop as soon as you give him what he wants. Decapitation doesn't defeat insurgencies. Dany basically negotiated with the Taliban from a position of strength and brought them into the government. The problem was she felt really, really bad about it.
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Jul 20, 2011 17:37
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The smart way to be a foreign conqueror is to co-opt the local elites and make them rule for you. She could have done it better though. Freeing the slaves was dumb. Marrying Hizdahr could have worked.
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Jul 20, 2011 17:40
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I've gotta say that the TV series' Varys is perhaps perfect. I don't read any character but him with the voice of the TV cast member. A slightly smaller and more weaselish Littlefinger with a sharper voice, perhaps. Carcetti's appearance is pretty good, however.
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Jul 20, 2011 17:49
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euphronius posted:The smart way to be a foreign conqueror is to co-opt the local elites and make them rule for you. She could have done it better though. Freeing the slaves was dumb. Marrying Hizdahr could have worked. The whole point of her invasion was to free the slaves. What they need is a religion to bind the slaves together and start a new society. I wonder where they can find a slave friendly religion with a lot of firebrand preachers...
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Jul 20, 2011 17:58
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To create a society with anything better than serfdom, you need to either increase the bargaining power of the lowest sort (plague worked for Europe), or increase the value of their work (education, improving opportunities elsewhere). Though, to be sure, I doubt any of the serdfom in reality was quite as bad as the Unsullied or the other excesses of the 7K world.
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Jul 20, 2011 18:03
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Ecco the Dolphin posted:So Jon, a woman who has demonstrated repeatedly that she can see the future tells you that you're in imminent personal danger. You've been taking a bunch of really controversial actions. You notice that Ghost is extremely agitated for no apparent reason which has never happened before, ever, and totally write it off -- even though your brother did the exact same thing right before he died. Genius. I just assumed that Ghost really, really wanted some giant boar bacon.
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Jul 20, 2011 18:03
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:Decapitation doesn't defeat insurgencies. I didn't say that she should decapitate him, just that the mystery of who might be involved in the insurgency should be considered solved if you find someone who claims that he can make it stop.
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Jul 20, 2011 18:06
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