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Oh, Toby  
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Jul 19, 2011 13:59
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El Bandit posted:"Then why not call it in the invasion of Normandy in the first place, you smug prick?" is a natural reaction to that sort of thing, but everyone always just looks appreciative that they have such a fine mind in their presence. Perhaps Sorkin behaves that way and thinks he is similarly admired. Sorkin's characters regularly get called on it and several times it causes serious problems for them time and time again. If it is a character trait that Sorkin shares with his characters then I think the writing demonstrates that a sense of awareness that what might be "admired" in one context might be a flaw in another. quote:You humiliated my President tonight and for no other reason than to show These are smart people, who like being smart and hanging out with other smart people. I love the scenes when Bartlett is quizzing them or schooling others on economics or whatever. But even he goes too far at times. I think it's made clear that they struggle with keeping their urges to be the smartest guys in the room at all times in check when they're in environments that it's not going to do them any favours. On a vaguely related not someone already mentioned the Santos-Obama parallels, but it only just occured to me that Governer Richie is a proto-Sarah Palin. Crime? Boy, I don't know.
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Jul 19, 2011 14:51
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Gravy Jones posted:On a vaguely related not someone already mentioned the Santos-Obama parallels, but it only just occured to me that Governer Richie is a proto-Sarah Palin. Crime? Boy, I don't know. Uh, Richie is pretty clearly based on another pretty high profile southern governor from a big state with a reputation for being not-so-bright.
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Jul 19, 2011 15:03
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Chajusong posted:Uh, Richie is pretty clearly based on another pretty high profile southern governor from a big state with a reputation for being not-so-bright. Yeah, Richie is clearly Bush. There's not even a bit of subtlety there at all. Which is pretty cool because that means both James Brolin and Josh Brolin have played Bush.
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Jul 19, 2011 15:31
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Chajusong posted:Uh, Richie is pretty clearly based on another pretty high profile southern governor from a big state with a reputation for being not-so-bright. Yeah I can see that. Did Bush actually play up to that reputation and try and win over people with the folksy charm thing when campaigning though? I don't actually know the answer as I really wasn't following US politics particularly closely at the time. I can see how the ".22-caliber mind in a .357 Magnum world" quote and stuff like that applies. I just thought Richie tended towards playing into the "well shucks" aspect of it all was a bit Palinesque. Bush always came across as just plain inept to me.
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Jul 19, 2011 16:33
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Season 5 is definitely the worst of the seasons, and despite a few bright spots the story really staggered along. We already had the re-election arc mid season four, Will was established as a character in later season 4 which had some great stories, but then season 5 after the Goodman arc there wasn't much to it, and the last few episodes of the season were just terrible. It did, however, have one of my favorite arcs of the series, though: the fall and rise of Josh. His redemption in during the government shutdown arc was really well crafted and well acted, you could really feel him being pushed aside by the whole process, when his expertise was needed most. Then when he comes up with the killing blow "Let's leave..." when outside the speaker's office it's a great moment. Then Donna goes to Israel or something and ugh.
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Jul 19, 2011 16:47
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Tom Tucker posted:Then Donna goes to Israel or something and ugh. But Jason Isaacs  Josh was easily the best character later in the show's run. I want someone to make a fan-edit of Season 7 that's all Josh/Santos/Vinick and cuts any White House plots that don't directly concern the campaign.
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Jul 19, 2011 16:54
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Gravy Jones posted:Yeah I can see that. Did Bush actually play up to that reputation and try and win over people with the folksy charm thing when campaigning though? I don't actually know the answer as I really wasn't following US politics particularly closely at the time. I can see how the ".22-caliber mind in a .357 Magnum world" quote and stuff like that applies. I just thought Richie tended towards playing into the "well shucks" aspect of it all was a bit Palinesque. Bush always came across as just plain inept to me. Richie wasn't really much of a character in the show, and while he was most closely based on Bush, he was really there to represent (Republican) anti-intellectualism in general. The theme of "being smart is good" was pretty prevalent through the entirety of the show's run really.
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Jul 19, 2011 17:03
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Gravy Jones posted:But Jason Isaacs
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Jul 19, 2011 17:16
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ufarn posted:Josh was by far my favourite, too, and almost felt like the protagonist of the show. His role was very similar to Michael J. Fox in Spin City. I'm convinced that the Josh character is based on the character from The American President (also Sorkin) that was played by Michael J. Fox, so...
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Jul 19, 2011 18:20
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McNally posted:I'm convinced that the Josh character is based on the character from The American President (also Sorkin) that was played by Michael J. Fox, so...
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Jul 19, 2011 18:31
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Gravy Jones posted:Crime? Boy, I don't know. In the future, if you're wondering, "Crime, boy, I don't know," is when I decided to kick your rear end. Love that scene.
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Jul 19, 2011 18:32
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ufarn posted:I didn't mean to imply that it was derivative. I love Michael J. Fox's performance on Spin City. No, I'm just saying that Sorkin probably had Michael J. Fox in mind.
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Jul 19, 2011 18:36
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McNally posted:No, I'm just saying that Sorkin probably had Michael J. Fox in mind. There's an alternate universe where Michael J. Fox doesn't have Parkinsons and is on President Barlett's staff.
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Jul 19, 2011 19:15
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McNally posted:I'm convinced that the Josh character is based on the character from The American President (also Sorkin) that was played by Michael J. Fox, so... Supposedly Josh was based, in part, on Rahm Emmanuel. Rahm was the guy that coralled congressman and senators for Clinton the same way Josh did for Bartlett. Then, coincidentally, became Obama's chief of staff, just like Josh did for Santos.
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Jul 19, 2011 20:53
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I'm not a fan of his presidency but I could never see George Bush being a douchebag about a secret service agent being murdered while trying to break up an armed robbery (the "Crime? Boy I don't know. line). I never got a GWB vibe from Ritchie. I thought it was more generic republican stereotype. When you compare the Bartlet reelection campaign at the start of S4 to the S6/7 campaign storyline, it's kind of disappointing that they never went running with the Ritchie character. He basically made a few cameo appearances to be generic or inept relative to Bartlet. There's the "The Left Wing" criticism when the show was under Sorkin and this is the best example imo. They never even tried to make the Republican challenger likable or his views credible. He was just some hick. Compared to how Vinick was an amazing character who most liberals could sympathize with and even agree with on a lot of issues. Then again they also didn't even make the re-election a mid-season finale so I guess it was just a minor plot line.
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Jul 20, 2011 05:48
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The Thanksgiving episode was by far the funniest thing my then-youthful brain had ever laughed at. "I had a thermometer presented to me by the personal chef of the King of... auto sales... in Fargo. Phil Baharnd." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TcGEcKjSu4&feature=related
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Jul 20, 2011 06:22
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BigHead posted:The Thanksgiving episode was by far the funniest thing my then-youthful brain had ever laughed at. "I had a thermometer presented to me by the personal chef of the King of... auto sales... in Fargo. Phil Baharnd." Toby's reaction after the call is great too. "'Phil Baharnd'?" 
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Jul 20, 2011 13:25
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BigHead posted:The Thanksgiving episode was by far the funniest thing my then-youthful brain had ever laughed at. "I had a thermometer presented to me by the personal chef of the King of... auto sales... in Fargo. Phil Baharnd." "I'm Joe Betherson...sen. That's one 't', and with an 'h' in there." I love that scene so much.
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Jul 20, 2011 14:22
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BigHead posted:The Thanksgiving episode was by far the funniest thing my then-youthful brain had ever laughed at. "I had a thermometer presented to me by the personal chef of the King of... auto sales... in Fargo. Phil Baharnd." Any time I'm having a down day, this clip can cheer me up without fail.
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Jul 20, 2011 14:24
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I've been starting a rewatch lately in my down time and just some random thoughts: - Mandy just disappears without a trace, they didn't seem to have any clue what to do with this character. The strange Clueless/late 90's poprock intro music whenever she appeared in the first few episodes was really jarring too. You almost expect a laugh track to follow or something. - I can't help but feel like Will is actually the worst main character on the show. I'm not sure what they could have done to fill the gulf Rob Lowe left but Will just seems poorly written and unnatural. When he tries to display any form of backbone with Toby I can't help but laugh. I liked the actor on Sports Night but he just didn't seem well suited to the role in WW, this seems backed up a bit by him being thrown all over the place on the show. - Toby's betrayal plotline thing seems ridiculously out of proportion with previous leaks and other things they've dealt with. - Season 5 is really hard to watch because Wells previously had so much success with character conflict that he tries to drive it into WW. Unfortunately it really went against the spirit of what made the show work so well.
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Jul 20, 2011 15:11
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The Gunslinger posted:I've been starting a rewatch lately in my down time and just some random thoughts: I like to think that she got too close to the panda bear story and was eaten. That, or she also got shot by the gunman and left behind because nobody really cared.
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Jul 20, 2011 15:13
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It might be apocryphal, but I remember hearing that they debated making Mandy one of the shooting victims but decided against it on the grounds that the audience wouldn't see it as a tragic event.
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Jul 20, 2011 15:16
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I feel bad for the actress because you can tell the writers had no clue what her role was supposed to be. Toby is in charge of communications, CJ in goaltending the press and Mandy is supposed to be spearheading some early image/re-election thing that is never fleshed out very well. It's also impossible to take her very seriously because she looks like shes 22 and has no official position with the administration. Finally, shes never given any funny lines to work with to contrast the tough political operator routine they tried to have her do.
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Jul 20, 2011 15:21
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The Gunslinger posted:I feel bad for the actress because you can tell the writers had no clue what her role was supposed to be. Toby is in charge of communications, CJ in goaltending the press and Mandy is supposed to be spearheading some early image/re-election thing that is never fleshed out very well. It's also impossible to take her very seriously because she looks like shes 22 and has no official position with the administration. Finally, shes never given any funny lines to work with to contrast the tough political operator routine they tried to have her do. It's amazing seeing Season 1 again how they manage to fade out her character. She all but vanishes halfway through and barely pops up again. Again I can't really fault John Wells. He and his writers had a horrible task when Sorkin left. There was a writers roundtable during awards Season and both Sorkin and Wells were there. I was expecting conflict but Sorkin was very gracious to Wells. Wells brings up a great point in one of the commentaries though to Sorkin when he says that Sorkin simply cannot write an antagonist. One of the great crimes in Studio 60 is that they neuter Steven Weber's character very quickly. He would've made a great antagonist, but instead he occasionally meddles to no end. While I'm ripping on that show (Mainly because it highlights the worst of Sorkin), there's an episode where the big 3 leads of the show are unable to make it. So one of the peripheral characters gets his chance to shine. By the end he's realised it's too hard, and he's just as drat good as those guys. It plays right into Sorkin's annoying habit of placing the brilliant up on pedestals and hailing them as largely infallible. They might make mistakes, but it all works out at the end because they're simply the best of the best. He exhibits some of this in The West Wing too. Though his worst habit there is picking up and dropping plots on a whim. The Charlie/Zoe relationship is one of the worst offenders. It completely vanishes until they set her up to be kidnapped at the end of Season 4.
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Jul 20, 2011 15:44
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The Gunslinger posted:- I can't help but feel like Will is actually the worst main character on the show. I'm not sure what they could have done to fill the gulf Rob Lowe left but Will just seems poorly written and unnatural. When he tries to display any form of backbone with Toby I can't help but laugh. I liked the actor on Sports Night but he just didn't seem well suited to the role in WW, this seems backed up a bit by him being thrown all over the place on the show. As Russell's chief of staff, though, I thought he served a pretty nice role calling Toby out on his poo poo every once in a while, and he seemed as good a fit for general advising/writing as Lowe was. (I've been rewatching lately, but I'm still in early S6, and haven't seen 6/7 since they aired, so I don't recall any specifics on how his story eventually plays out.)
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Jul 20, 2011 15:44
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WoG posted:My only problem with how Will was handled is that his jump to the Russell staff seemed a bit out of character, in that he started out so idealistic he'd run a dead man's campaign to the bitter end, but shifted quickly to the cold pragmatism of getting in with the presumed nominee, no matter how little he believes in the guy. It felt like Will never really knew that Russel was Haffley's pick. There's some scene where he's emphatically yelling at Toby (I think during the lock down) about he's trying so hard to see what the President and Leo and the rest of the staff saw in him when they picked Russel, but he doesn't realize that Russel wasn't really picked, he was thrust upon the white house by a lovely SOB of a speaker.
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Jul 20, 2011 16:22
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FISHMANPET posted:It felt like Will never really knew that Russel was Haffley's pick. There's some scene where he's emphatically yelling at Toby (I think during the lock down) about he's trying so hard to see what the President and Leo and the rest of the staff saw in him when they picked Russel, but he doesn't realize that Russel wasn't really picked, he was thrust upon the white house by a lovely SOB of a speaker. I thought that was exactly how they had played it. Even though he was around at that point, he wasn't in the room when Haffley gave Josh and Toby the list and presumably they weren't going to shout just how weak politically they were at that point. By the end you had to laugh at who they had left in the actual White House. CJ, Charlie and Kate were the main staff and Will was around for the 5 seconds a day CJ would deign to speak to him. It never went to any length to say why CJ was so abrupt with him, did the writers just move Toby's hatred of him over to her as I don't recall her being like that to Will before the Shuttle plotline? Oh and they still had Ed and Larry, they were answering the phones by that point I presume.
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Jul 20, 2011 16:33
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The biggest kick in the teeth for Mandy was that in season 7 they basically brought her character back with Lou who actually managed to be pretty good at her job. I'm going take this time to also declare my undying love for Toby. Any time he gets a chance to not only point out someone in a meeting is wrong but gets to explain exactly why they're wrong is a fun time. Also, Dry Rub. Everything about that was great. FISHMANPET posted:It felt like Will never really knew that Russel was Haffley's pick.
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Jul 20, 2011 16:53
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I sometimes wish they had given Charlie's character a bit more growth at the end of the series but goddamn if there weren't some great moments with him and the President earlier on: Thanksgiving.
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Jul 20, 2011 17:06
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Ratatozsk posted:I sometimes wish they had given Charlie's character a bit more growth at the end of the series but goddamn if there weren't some great moments with him and the President earlier on: Thanksgiving. Yeah I remember people were not happy with how Charlies character basically faded away to nothing in the later seasons. They gave him a fair amount of screen time early on in the show but could have done a lot more with the character I think. Bartlett and Charlie have some great banter moments in the series.
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Jul 20, 2011 17:20
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The Gunslinger posted:Yeah I remember people were not happy with how Charlies character basically faded away to nothing in the later seasons. They gave him a fair amount of screen time early on in the show but could have done a lot more with the character I think. Bartlett and Charlie have some great banter moments in the series. I don't remember the episode, but the exchange when Bartlet is trying to get away for a quickie with his wife always slays me: Charlie: Mr. President-- Bartlet: Charlie, I have to go to a special meeting-- Charlie: Of the government, sir, yes. She went to Cochran's Mills early. Bartlet: ... Charlie: *grinning* Would you like to take another crack at the speech? Bartlet: Would you like to wipe that smile off your face before I send you on special assignment to the Yukon?
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Jul 20, 2011 17:25
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Alter Ego posted:I don't remember the episode, but the exchange when Bartlet is trying to get away for a quickie with his wife always slays me: Also CHARLIE We've got euphemisms. Every once in a while, there'll be a fluke cancelation some kind of gap in the President's schedule, and the President and the First Lady might slip over... you know. DEBBIE For a "matinee." CHARLIE Yeah. DEBBIE What do you call it? CHARLIE "Barbecuing."
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Jul 20, 2011 17:37
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Mu Zeta posted:Also This is even funnier because Lily Tomlin played Debbie, and she was so good at just deadpanning those lines. The bits when she interviewed with the President were funny too. "I have unsurpassed powers of deduction." "Oh yeah? Those come with tights and a cape?" "CHARLIE!!!"
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Jul 20, 2011 17:49
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What exactly was the behind-the-scenes reason for Danny disappearing for such a long time? Zoey hasn't been around for a long time, either... the relationship between her and Charlie hasn't even been mentioned (I'm on episode 13 of season 3 now). (Looking it up, it seems they broke up in season 2? I must have just missed that, somehow.)
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Jul 20, 2011 18:55
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thexerox123 posted:What exactly was the behind-the-scenes reason for Danny disappearing for such a long time? Sorkin didn't know how else to use him? Danny, like Zoe, goes from being a character to a Sorkin plot point when they're needed.
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Jul 20, 2011 21:44
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I really need to read through this thread, but I just had to say that this is my all time favorite show, I've watched the episodes over and over and they are still good. :3 I'm glad someone made a thread, I was thinking I was the only one who still watched this show every once in a while. Getting my boyfriend to watch it is like pulling teeth, I just don't understand!
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Jul 21, 2011 02:14
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DrVenkman posted:Sorkin didn't know how else to use him? Danny, like Zoe, goes from being a character to a Sorkin plot point when they're needed. Like the entire country of Equatorial Kundu. The episode that also introduces Ainsley Hayes has a great subplot about the President of Equatorial Kundu coming to the White House to try and get medicine for the people in his country suffering from AIDS. It's a very well done storyline. President Bartlett meets with him and during that meeting they find out a coup has gone down in his country. He refuses political asylum and goes back to his country where he is immediately executed when he gets off the plane. Then in season four there's another crisis in Equatorial Kundu and Bartlett and his staff act like they've never heard of the country before. He even mentions needing an atlas after hearing the name of the country. It's just odd, seeing how it's a made up country they should have remembered they did a storyline like that. Especially considering there had been recent episodes in that very season that had specific callbacks to stuff very early in the series. It was something in my recent rewatch that I caught for the first time and it kind of bothered me that they seemed to completely forget about it.
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Jul 21, 2011 02:39
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I thought Qumar was a real country because of this show and it led to an embarrassing situation years ago. Thanks a lot Sorkin, you rear end in a top hat.
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Jul 21, 2011 11:29
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Alter Ego posted:This is even funnier because Lily Tomlin played Debbie, and she was so good at just deadpanning those lines. I really loved the episode where CJ steals the presidents itinerary from Charlie: Charlie: Look C.J... CJ: You'll find it in your filing cabinet under A for anal. Larry: I don't really want to know what he's going to find in his filing cabinet, do you? Ed: No. This proceeds into a series of rapidly escalating pranks that ends with Charlie rigging her entire desk to fall apart into a dozen pieces. CJ: So uh how long do you usually make people your bitch?
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Jul 21, 2011 14:47
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