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Ecco the Dolphin posted:So Dany, you went up to a man with tons of history in Meereen and tons of personal connections to your enemies, who you don't really know much of anything about at all, and offered to make him to most powerful man in the realm? And your price was 90 days of peace from the DAILY murders and attacks, and somehow, even though it was already his loving job to keep the peace, attacks drop off completely and instantaneously once you make this request? BOY, THAT'S NOT loving SUSPICIOUS AT ALL. What exactly was it she even thought he did do to stop the attacks? She doesn't seem too curious about how it happened. It's not like this was pointed out repeatedly by several characters in the book however. Hell, it was one the reasons why Barristan and the Shavepate decided to take the king into custody after all. It's hardly "plot stupidity" when it is done consciously and deliberately. euphronius posted:The smart way to be a foreign conqueror is to co-opt the local elites and make them rule for you. She could have done it better though. Freeing the slaves was dumb. Marrying Hizdahr could have worked. Yeah, take India for example. Most (rural) Indians didn't know or realise that the British were actually calling the shots until they left (and then only because suddenly there was elections and poo poo). Decius fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Jul 20, 2011 |
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Jul 20, 2011 18:09
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We wait 10 years to find out what happened to Bran and there's 3 whole chapters about him in a 1,000 page book while Quentyn Martell gets pages and pages written about him doing stupid poo poo.
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Jul 20, 2011 18:12
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Daric posted:We wait 10 years to find out what happened to Bran and there's 3 whole chapters about him in a 1,000 page book while Quentyn Martell gets pages and pages written about him doing stupid poo poo. 4 chapters, I believe
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Jul 20, 2011 18:14
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withak posted:I didn't say that she should decapitate him, just that the mystery of who might be involved in the insurgency should be considered solved if you find someone who claims that he can make it stop. I meant decapitation figuratively, as in cutting off the head of an insurgency doesn't defeat it.
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Jul 20, 2011 18:25
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Daric posted:We wait 10 years to find out what happened to Bran and there's 3 whole chapters about him in a 1,000 page book while Quentyn Martell gets pages and pages written about him doing stupid poo poo. At least you get the satisfaction of him being roasted alive and then his confirmed death shortly thereafter, so its not like Feast where we have Brienne wandering around and then obviously not dying.
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Jul 20, 2011 18:46
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:I meant decapitation figuratively, as in cutting off the head of an insurgency doesn't defeat it. No but if you know someone who is involved then it makes it a lot easier to track down the rest of them.
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Jul 20, 2011 19:02
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I just dont understand Doran Martells strategy with sending Quentyn to Daenarys. "Ok Quentyn, I have this really old marriage pact that is not even for yourself and her, but you should try and make her marry you. Oh, we know nothing about her except she has been taking over cities and she may be insane like her dad. If you cant get her to marry you, steal one of her dragons. We know very little about dragons but I am sure you will be able to tame the deadliest creature in the world. I expect you to be flying over on a dragon in a couple of months time. Please dont breathe near me it is affecting my gout." Am I missing something? For someone who is supposed to be a great thinker and ponderous, sending Quentyn is downright retarded.
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Jul 20, 2011 19:36
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Limp Wristed Limey posted:I just dont understand Doran Martells strategy with sending Quentyn to Daenarys. I don't think Doran had anything to do with the decision to steal a dragon. That was 100% Quentyn. As far as Doran knew (and in line with what the Golden Company, Varys, Grif and Barristan all thought should happen) Dany would be looking to book it over to Westeros ASAP and that would marrying Quentyn a solid political move.
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Jul 20, 2011 19:39
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Limp Wristed Limey posted:I just dont understand Doran Martells strategy with sending Quentyn to Daenarys. You think? Dany leaving with Quentyn for Dorne would probably have been a much better decision that pretty much anything else she did in ADWD. I guess Doran didn't expect Dany to be retarded
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Jul 20, 2011 19:40
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Lenin Stimpy posted:You think? Centuries upon centuries of inbreeding has taken its toll apparently 
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Jul 20, 2011 19:43
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But my beautiful captain, I would give up my crown for him!
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Jul 20, 2011 19:44
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Hmmm I guess so, still seems kinda stupid. You would think he would send a gimp out first to test the waters instead of sending his son. Anyway one of the only positives I got from reading the Meereen bit was reading about Quentyns horrible death.
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Jul 20, 2011 19:47
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Jul 20, 2011 19:49
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edit: beaten, but ehLimp Wristed Limey posted:I just dont understand Doran Martells strategy with sending Quentyn to Daenarys. Well I don't think solo dragontaming was ever part of the plan, because it was quite a retarded thing to do. Bold, but retarded. If Q couldn't marry her then he was at least supposed to bring her back with him. How could they expect that she was perfectly content sitting around with every pro-slavery power in the world sending an army after her, her own subjects being murdered in the street, and having literally no economy at all? I guess Doran wasn't expecting her to be... Well Dany. What was her plan for Westeros, anyway? Try for it in a decade when the 7K are reunited under a single banner again in the middle of winter? Should have taken Xaro's offer. Or skipped Slaver's Bay entirely.
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Jul 20, 2011 19:54
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Lenin Stimpy posted:You think? Dany isn't retarded, just human. Why should she return to Westeros anyway? Westeros isn't her home any more than Meereen is. It's probably less so, if anything, since the freed people of Slaver's Bay practically worship her. If she went to Westeros with Quentyn, they'd find a war-weary continent that's been fighting all autumn when they should have been harvesting, plus she would be at the head of an army of sellswords and foreigners with three unruly, hungry dragons. Personally I think it's delusional that Selmy and Quentyn think Westeros will rise for its 'rightful' queen. Dorne will rise, but they'd have to put down the lords already fighting, from the Reach to the North. Dany's handling of Meereen is flawed, but I appreciate the flaws because they make for a more realistic book, even a book with dragons and magical trees. As Prince Feisal said, "Young men make wars, and the virtues of war are the virtues of young men – courage and hope for the future. Then old men make the peace, and the vices of peace are the vices of old men – mistrust and caution." This is the theme I got from Dany's chapters.
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Jul 20, 2011 19:58
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What I took out of the Meeren chapters is that Dany is a stupid teenager who, like Jeoffrey, chooses to ignore the people around her that are giving her good advice, and instead act like a dumb teenager. Which is to say make the worst decisions possible at all times. She's totally believable as a 16 year old girl. But I can't see how she would inspire any loyalty in someone like Barristan.
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Jul 20, 2011 20:18
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It's funny because things seemed to align for her in the previous novels. No longer. I am just a young girl, but I know little of stupidity until now apparently.
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Jul 20, 2011 20:23
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I don't see how, after ADWD, anyone can hope that Dany returns to Westeros and becomes Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. I mean, unless you enjoy hilariously bad rulers.
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Jul 20, 2011 20:25
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Neurosis posted:I am just a young girl, but I know little of stupidity until now apparently. Your Honor, I'm just a simple caveman. Your world frightens and confuses me. My primitive mind can't grasp these concepts.
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Jul 20, 2011 20:33
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Thoguh posted:What I took out of the Meeren chapters is that Dany is a stupid teenager who, like Jeoffrey, chooses to ignore the people around her that are giving her good advice, and instead act like a dumb teenager. Which is to say make the worst decisions possible at all times. The frustrating thing is that in the very first book she makes huge mistakes, but turns them around and works an actual miracle. And she was what, 13? 14? She's a widow who's lost a son, lead her people through a desert wasteland, conjured an army out of basically nothing and conquered cities. It makes no sense at all for her to regress into an ineffectual idiot just because GURM felt like writing about a horny teenager sucking the cock of some anime-haired rear end in a top hat.
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Jul 20, 2011 20:39
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YES bread posted:It makes no sense at all for her to regress into an ineffectual idiot Yes it does. Ruling is a lot harder than conquering. There are like 14 million historical examples. In the book and in Earth. How about Robert Baratheon? VVV I was not comparing the two, I was just giving an example of a good conqueror who sucked as a ruler. euphronius fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Jul 20, 2011 |
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Jul 20, 2011 20:41
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euphronius posted:Yes it does. Ruling is a lot harder than conquering. There are like 14 million historical examples. In the book and in Earth. How about Robert Baratheon? Robert just said "gently caress it, I'm not good at this" and got other people to do the hard stuff for him though. Comparing him to Dany is like comparing a housefire with a raging wildfire. Neither are good rulers, but Dany is miles worse than any ruler we've seen or heard about other than Aegon. Even Jeoffrey was at least somewhat checked by Tyrion and others.
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Jul 20, 2011 20:48
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Thing I never understood about Robert is why he wasn't best friends with Tyrion, as they blatantly should have been. And it would have been awesome.
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Jul 20, 2011 20:52
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Thoguh posted:Dany is miles worse than any ruler we've seen or heard about other than Aegon. Even Jeoffrey was at least somewhat checked by Tyrion and others. Dany at least wants to be a good and benevolent Queen. Joffrey just liked making people fight to the death to solve petty issues until Tyrion showed up, gave him a new crossbow and told him to go kill things while the adults got poo poo done.
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Jul 20, 2011 20:55
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Thoguh posted:Robert just said "gently caress it, I'm not good at this" and got other people to do the hard stuff for him though. Comparing him to Dany is like comparing a housefire with a raging wildfire. Neither are good rulers, but Dany is miles worse than any ruler we've seen or heard about other than Aegon. Even Jeoffrey was at least somewhat checked by Tyrion and others. No, Ramsay is worse. Dany is boring to read, but not that bad a leader. She just wants the Ghiscari/Free States to stop slavery... And I can personaly agree to that slavery isn't a good thing. The trouble stems from rich people, not happy with not being that rich any more... And loosing a war off course. If someone should be called bad leaders, it would be the old Great Masters of Mereen that crusifed hundreds of babies; provoking the girl with the unsullied army and dragons that had just destroyed that other town where the unsullieds were made.
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Jul 20, 2011 20:58
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euphronius posted:Yes it does. Ruling is a lot harder than conquering. There are like 14 million historical examples. In the book and in Earth. How about Robert Baratheon? Dany has been shown in previous books to actually learn from her mistakes and listen to the people around her, that was how she got poo poo done. Once she gets to Meereen she just sticks Daario's cock in her ears and acts like she's never dealt with political bullshit before in her life. It's jarring as hell and really inconsistent. A lot of people are trying to handwave it with "stupid teenager" but that's a terrible excuse. Look at everything Dany has accomplished in the previous books, how does that mesh with her suddenly ignoring everyone around her and blowing off her royal duties to gently caress Daariostar? If she couldn't think straight for tripping over dicks she never would have made it out of Qarth.
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Jul 20, 2011 21:04
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Thoguh posted:Robert just said "gently caress it, I'm not good at this" and got other people to do the hard stuff for him though. Comparing him to Dany is like comparing a housefire with a raging wildfire. Neither are good rulers, but Dany is miles worse than any ruler we've seen or heard about other than Aegon. Even Jeoffrey was at least somewhat checked by Tyrion and others. The best line in the series is when some old peasant man says, "Things were way better under the old king," and Arya says, "You mean Robert?" and the old man goes, "No, Aerys." The populace just wants stability. Even if society is horribly unfair. Anyone else think that the "point" of the Penny and slavery stuff is to teach Tyrion some humility? His pridefulness is one of his bigger flaws. He's unable to let any insult go unanswered, ever, even when he is going to be whipped if he speaks. Penny was right that he reacted poorly to Joffrey's mockery. He has always projected this whole, "You have to embrace what you are," philosophy, but he actually still hasn't done so. I think it's quite intentional that he spends the first couple of chapters lounging around drinking and stuffing himself to the point of practically becoming diabetic and then for the rest of the book his circumstances get steadily shittier. The decay starts the instant he stops using the name Lannister. Then we see how much he has been relying on his name, when people start treating him like Yollo the Dwarf instead of Tyrion of House Lannister. Where this is going and why is less clear.
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Jul 20, 2011 21:11
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YES bread posted:Once she gets to Meereen she just sticks Daario's cock in her ears and acts like she's never dealt with political bullshit before in her life. It's jarring as hell and really inconsistent. I don't think she was portrayed that way so I think maybe our different readings of those chapters is fueling our disagreement. I remember her spending a lot of time considering her options, finding them to be bad and worse and picking the least bad option. She ran into a bit of a Ned problem where her principles and honor were not conducive to the locality.
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Jul 20, 2011 21:14
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Midnight- posted:Thing I never understood about Robert is why he wasn't best friends with Tyrion, as they blatantly should have been. And it would have been awesome. Robert doesn't take poo poo from anybody but Ned in the books really, everybody else he yells/beats at until they go away (or kill him). Dany's problem is the tremendous amount of success she has on a personal past Drogo's death: She gets her dragons, she defeats the Qarthians, she gets her army and (somewhat) loyal retainers, and takes out two of the powers of the region which enables her army to be battle trained. The real problem is not that Meereen is a complete failure for her, its that its written as a failure not by somebody else's cunning (Red Wedding), luck and intelligence (Jon and the Wildings) or by unforeseen circumstances (Ned becoming headless). It's by GRRM writing her as a complete idiot who pulls an Aerys and ignores all the advice of everyone around her, which is wholly inconsistent up to that point. edit: hey YES bread said much the same thing.
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Jul 20, 2011 21:20
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withak posted:No but if you know someone who is involved then it makes it a lot easier to track down the rest of them. Exactly. After all, since the US realized that bin Laden was the head of Al Qaida (circa 1990) they've been essentially neutralized.
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Jul 20, 2011 21:21
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The reason why it makes sense for Dany to be dumb in this book is because she has had a ridiculously ideal notion of how she should rule ever since the sacking of the sheep village in book 1. She's not willing to compromise her ideals for power. After Drogo dies this happens to help her get an army and avoid some bad situations. The point of Meereen is to show that this was pretty much just dumb luck, and Dany's previous philosophy won't work in a long term ruling situation. Hopefully the events at the end of ADWD and her returning to find that Hizdar tried to off her will jolt her into realizing that she can't continue putting her ideals over actually ruling well. In no way is any of this inconsistent with what she's previously done.
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Jul 20, 2011 21:22
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YES bread posted:Dany has been shown in previous books to actually learn from her mistakes and listen to the people around her, that was how she got poo poo done. Once she gets to Meereen she just sticks Daario's cock in her ears and acts like she's never dealt with political bullshit before in her life. It's jarring as hell and really inconsistent. What are you talking about? Her marriage to Hizdahr was a political move. What she's not willing to do is kill her child hostages or unleash her untamed dragons. Her whole problem isn't that she's a bad queen, her problem is that she's a good queen. It's the reason Selmy defected to her, or why her freed people remain loyal to her. Christ, your characterization of her is so dumb I wonder if you even read the books. Yeah she wants to gently caress Daario, but her horniness wasn't debilitating her ability to rule. It was her virtue and sense of justice that kept her from crushing everything in her path.
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Jul 20, 2011 21:26
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regulargonzalez posted:Exactly. After all, since the US realized that bin Laden was the head of Al Qaida (circa 1990) they've been essentially neutralized. Well you have to know where he is too.
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Jul 20, 2011 21:32
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Caufman posted:What are you talking about? Her marriage to Hizdahr was a political move. What she's not willing to do is kill her child hostages or unleash her untamed dragons. Her whole problem isn't that she's a bad queen, her problem is that she's a good queen. Why did Dany take the children hostage when she was obviously against doing any harm to them from the start? The only possible outcome would have been making her look toothless and weak. Surprise! That's what happened. Once Drogon started eating babies she locked her dragons up and completely ignored them instead of even attempting to train them. Oh yeah and Hizdahr had obvious ties to the insurgency and then immediately tried to murder her after the marriage  None of this has anything to do with virtue or justice, it's her being stone cold retarded because the plot demands her to be.
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Jul 20, 2011 21:53
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So remember the whole iron bank makes princes out of thin air when people cant pay their debt to them, annnnd now we have an silver haired secret targ appear from nowhere when the iron throne stopping paying the bank. totally a coincidence right?
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Jul 20, 2011 22:01
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And how would you go about training a dragon when there hasn't been one around for 100 years? The novels stress this with Tyrion, who was dragon-obsessed, still not knowing much about them and wishing he had more access to dragon-related lore. Dany cannot use them, but that doesn't mean she's forgotten them. Taking hostages was an obviously intermediary step between ignoring the Sons of the Harpy and bloody martial law. The reason she doesn't kill the hostages or kill the heads of the houses in their pyramids like the Shavepate wanted was because she doesn't enjoy bloodshed. That has everything to do with her virtue. You say that she forgot politics, but this was another political move she made. Flawed, I agree, but flawed because of her goodness, not because she's "stone cold retarded" If anything, Hizdahr trying to poison Dany is dumber than Dany marrying him. His power only comes from her. If she died, the Shavepate would have for sure tried to kill him, and just about anyone else loyal to Dany, even Selmy would have done something. The dragons would not have listened to him, Daario if he lived would not have let the Stormcrows serve him, and the Unsullied for sure would have hosed his poo poo up. I don't imagine he and the rest of the Meereenese could muster the power to reclaim the city. It would have been blood and ruins in the end. What does Hizdahr have to gain from that?
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Jul 20, 2011 22:05
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Mince Pieface posted:In no way is any of this inconsistent with what she's previously done. I agree. Before Mereen, Dany basically bumblefucks her way from one miraculous success to another, mainly thanks to her dragons. She's a sixteen year old girl who needs to learn that she can't have everything her way and her dragons aren't going to save her from all her troubles (ironically, it looks like they'll end up saving her from this problem as well). Mereen is a learning experience for her. She's never had to lead people who didn't worship her as their savior/true queen. Of course, she's going to make heaps of mistakes. Thankfully, she still has dragons, loyal followers, and some new arrivals who'll probably throw their lots in with hers, so she'll have a chance of surviving and learning from those mistakes.
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Jul 20, 2011 22:07
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Taking hostages is worthless if they call your bluff and you can't follow.through on your threats. Its interesting to think about what would have happened if Drogon hadn't swooped in. Would they have realized the locusts were poisoned? Hizdahr kind of got lucky on that one, for a moment at least.
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Jul 20, 2011 22:09
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Caufman posted:And how would you go about training a dragon when there hasn't been one around for 100 years? The big problem I had was that she doesn't even try. She locks them up and stops interacting with them completely except to show them off to Quentyn the delicious virgin dragonsnack. The dragons have an affinity for her and instead of using that she does nothing. She learns more about dragons in a few days by riding on Drogon and making GBS threads herself then she does in months(?) of sitting in Meereen with two of them right there. bigmcgaffney posted:Taking hostages is worthless if they call your bluff and you can't follow.through on your threats. Yeah this, it showed the entire city that she was all talk and ended up being worse than just not taking them in the first place.
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Jul 20, 2011 22:24
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bigmcgaffney posted:Taking hostages is worthless if they call your bluff and you can't follow.through on your threats. Strong Belwas ate a whole bowl of poisoned locusts and still survived. 
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Jul 20, 2011 22:25
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