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I think a big reason that soldiers especially are so prevalent but don't come off very deep is because the whole series was hugely inspired by Glen Cook's Black Company series which had a major focus on a soldier's life. The problem is that Erikson is an archeologist while Glen Cook was actually in Vietnam and wrote from personal experience. Beyond that I can't really put my finger on what's wrong, it just feels as if Cook was better at writing characters that sounded interesting without actually saying too much about them. Abalieno posted:Thankfully writing a book is not a democratic act. And not all editors bow to conventional demands. Haha.
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Jul 5, 2011 21:06
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the periodic fable posted:I think a big reason that soldiers especially are so prevalent but don't come off very deep is because the whole series was hugely inspired by Glen Cook's Black Company series which had a major focus on a soldier's life. The problem is that Erikson is an archeologist while Glen Cook was actually in Vietnam and wrote from personal experience. As someone whose read the entirety of the Black Comapny AND the Malazan books, I can say that while Cook has some good characters, comparing the two series would be pretty unflattering for Croaker and company. And while a of TBC's character did seem interesting without him saying much about them, it was only a few and they were mostly in the beginning of the series. Croaker, Lady (at first), the mages, great characters. I can't think of anyone I give a poo poo about from that series, though, who was introduced after book...Hell, after book 1. Compare that to someone like Beak, however, in book SEVEN of the Malazans, who didn't have a ton of time but seemed like a fantastically realized character. Not to mention the universal emotion that seems to be pretty unanimous in readers' reactions to him and his storyline. I'm not saying that Erikson is the best around when it comes to characterization...I'd definitely say that someone like Martin is better. Even Martin's minor characters have very distinct personalities, and you feel like they're real people. But compared to TBC I think Erikson does a fantastic job. Cook reminds me of someone who had a great idea for a world/characters, and then fell in love with the writing when he should have stopped. Everything after book 3, while somewhat enjoyable to read at times, was pretty uninspired and none of the characters were really that great. Edit: drat, lot of typos. A Nice Boy fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Jul 5, 2011 |
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Jul 5, 2011 22:12
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Well, yes, I should have mentioned that I'm only talking about the first three books as I agree with your assessment that he went pretty overboard after that. It sounds like you're just reiterating the fact that yes we all agree that Erikson has some amazing characters but the problem is that he didn't stop with them, he has too many and many of those feel flat, not to mention those which sound as if they speak with exactly the same voice (basically all female Marines, including Picker with Blend being the only except for me, for example).
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Jul 6, 2011 08:24
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A Nice Boy posted:I'm not saying that Erikson is the best around when it comes to characterization...I'd definitely say that someone like Martin is better. Even Martin's minor characters have very distinct personalities, and you feel like they're real people. Unfortunately they're all terrible people and I hate all of them 
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Jul 6, 2011 14:00
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Abalieno posted:Thankfully writing a book is not a democratic act. And not all editors bow to conventional demands. Writing one? Sure. Getting one published on the other hand can be a very democratic process  quote:Cook reminds me of someone who had a great idea for a world/characters, and then fell in love with the writing when he should have stopped. Everything after book 3, while somewhat enjoyable to read at times, was pretty uninspired and none of the characters were really that great. Erikson takes a lot of inspiration from Cook which can be unfortunate at times because he seems to have picked up some of his better qualities while also adopting some poor ones. Cook was always great at writing character level drama while encompassing a grander background epic. He was always very poor at descriptive narrative and characterization unfortunately. Erikson is very good at description but applies it haphazardly to whatever he feels like, there isn't a lot of consistency. Sometimes you will get a very good picture of a character, their background, appearance and whatnot. Sometimes you will only discover that their name rhymes with a kitchen tool. It's not that he doesn't do it well when he wants to, it's just that its inconsistent. Every character doesn't need to have a fully fleshed out, storied background like Anomander or Karsa. On the other hand when we get continual POVs or large sections dedicated to them then we need a bit more than their funny name. Cooks first three books were fairly focused and then he starts to meander quite a bit, mixing his personal experiences and vietnam war stuff into the thing which becomes a bit muddled because its difficult for the reader to relate to a lot of that. He wrote a fair number of characters but only ever did about 15 worthwhile ones and the worst part is that he realizes it so he keeps (literally) bringing them back from the dead. This is something you see in Erikson's work as well but at least it fits more thematically in his world. I still think he didn't need to rely on a lot of that though. Anyway it'll be interesting to see what he comes up with next now that he isn't chained the overall narrative anymore. I'm looking forward to it. It would be nice to get a series of smaller books about new characters or something.
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Jul 6, 2011 14:30
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The Gunslinger posted:Anyway it'll be interesting to see what he comes up with next now that he isn't chained the overall narrative anymore. I'm looking forward to it. It would be nice to get a series of smaller books about new characters or something. His next commitment is Karsa, I think, which sounds grand to me.
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Jul 6, 2011 15:10
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The Kharkanas trilogy is basically the "Anomander Rake: Fightin' 'Round the World" story, isn't it? I know he was going to do some stuff focusing on Rake's younger days, I just can't remember if Kharkanas was it. Honestly, I'd kill just for a book full of short stories about Rake's adventures (especially if it means more Envy and Spite).
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Jul 6, 2011 20:32
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Levitate posted:Unfortunately they're all terrible people and I hate all of them Yeah, that's one of the problems I have with ASoIaF. I love the books, but not as much as some, and I think it's because at times it's really hard to find someone whose a definable "hero." I mean, it's all well and great that everyone is so human and everyone is a shade of grey not black or white blah blah blah, but hell...Sometimes I read books because I want someone to root for, and sometimes it's hard as hell to find a likeable character in those books. They're still awesome as hell, though.
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Jul 6, 2011 21:04
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http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/epic_interview1/ Erikson's answer here is a pretty good description of what he writes and why he does it that way.
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Jul 7, 2011 09:46
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Just finished book 3. I spent all day yesterday reading the last 400 pages. So far it has been my favorite and I can't wait to sink into book 4.
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Jul 7, 2011 14:32
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A Nice Boy posted:Yeah, that's one of the problems I have with ASoIaF. I love the books, but not as much as some, and I think it's because at times it's really hard to find someone whose a definable "hero." I mean, it's all well and great that everyone is so human and everyone is a shade of grey not black or white blah blah blah, but hell...Sometimes I read books because I want someone to root for, and sometimes it's hard as hell to find a likeable character in those books. In ASoIaF, there are no heroes, only whores.
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Jul 7, 2011 17:04
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xwonderboyx posted:Just finished book 3. I spent all day yesterday reading the last 400 pages. So far it has been my favorite and I can't wait to sink into book 4. Memories of Ice is indeed fantastic. It might be the best book in the series. Not that the other books aren't well worth reading; it's just that good.
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Jul 8, 2011 10:25
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User posted:Memories of Ice is indeed fantastic. It might be the best book in the series. Not that the other books aren't well worth reading; it's just that good. The first 200 pages of House of Chains is brutally awesome. I'm around page 400 and it's cool learning some stuff about the world but I want Karsa to murder fools 
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Jul 9, 2011 23:24
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House of Chains is awesome because you get to really get into Karsa and he just wrecks everyone's poo poo. Memories of Ice for me was great because you get to meet Caladan Brood and Rake's group, answering a lot of questions I had from the first book regarding history of the differing groups. For me though, Midnight Tides is the best because it introduces Tehol and Bugg. I'm on Reapers Gale and still love those guys. I would tune in weekly to a sitcom Bosom Buddies style with those guys.
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Jul 14, 2011 21:01
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About halfway through Stonewielder and I have to say that it's going to take a BIG second half to make it as good as RotCG was for me. It has some interesting parts, and a few interesting POV's, but man, a lot of it kind of drags and meanders and doesn't seem to know what it wants to do with itself. Esslemont seems to really want to match Erikson's effortless "marine in the trenches" type conversation/POV style and he really doesn't have the style for it. That said, it has had some cool set pieces so far, and he'a also done something in this book that I hadn't thought possible: Kyle is almost COOL now that he's not a POV, more a mystic figure viewed from afar by the soldiers around him. The part where the Marish ship hooks their ship with the giant chains and Kyle jumps up and shears them was pretty cool. So yeah, Kyle...Still annoying name, character much more interesting in this one.
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Jul 14, 2011 21:46
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Just finished Midnight Tides - definitely my favorite so far. The story was more focused on a relatively simple conflict and having only 3 or 4 main characters really let Erickson flesh out those characters, a notable weakness in the earlier books. One question though, who exactly are the Crimson Guard and what is the role of an Avowed? I seem to recall mentions of them as the Empire's enemies in Genabackis from Gardens of the Moon but I'm not positive. Iron Bars is pretty awesome and from his talk with the wraith Tiste Andii it seemed that he was similar to Itkovian in carrying spiritual burdens for others.
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Jul 14, 2011 22:09
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Sir Bruce posted:Just finished Midnight Tides - definitely my favorite so far. The story was more focused on a relatively simple conflict and having only 3 or 4 main characters really let Erickson flesh out those characters, a notable weakness in the earlier books. Seems like you basically have to read RotCG to find out. They don't really get explained in the ten books.
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Jul 14, 2011 22:13
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Sir Bruce posted:Just finished Midnight Tides - definitely my favorite so far. The story was more focused on a relatively simple conflict and having only 3 or 4 main characters really let Erickson flesh out those characters, a notable weakness in the earlier books. It's not really a spoiler to tell you who they are, though: The Crimson Guard are a mercenary army that vowed revenge on the Malazan Empire when they were defeated/kicked out of their homeland. The vow was so powerful that it basically bound them to everlasting life until they complete the vow or die. They're really powerful warriors and mages, but mostly their power comes from the vow making them very, very hard to kill. You CAN kill them but chopping them up/beheading/etc, but for the most part they'll survive with wounds that would kick the poo poo out of just about anyone else, barring ascendants. They're also all over 100 years old, as they made the vow over a century ago. Their leader it the exiled prince K'azz D'avore, and he's listed as one of the worlds "great generals" along with Dassem Ultor, Dujek, Greymane, etc. His second in command, and probably the most powerful Avowed, is Skinner, whose generally supposed to be a super badass. Iron Bars is up there on the list as well, as he's supposed to have one of the most powerful "wills" in the CG. Erikson places a lot of emphasis on "will" and "willpower," as you'll see later in the series/in the Esslemont novels, and a strong will is one of the measures of power in some, like the CG. You've seen/heard about them twice by book five: In book one, Blues and Fingers save Crokus from The Adjunct Lorne and kill her. In books 1 and 3, you hear about the Crimson Guard being one of the forces arrayed against the Malazans on Genabackis, allied with the Tiste Andii/Rake and Caladan Brood.
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Jul 15, 2011 01:01
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However, it is a spoiler that they are in the fifth book since they are simply listed as soldier or mage or whatever on the characters page. Which is I assume was why he spoiler tagged it.
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Jul 15, 2011 02:50
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A Nice Boy posted:About halfway through Stonewielder and I have to say that it's going to take a BIG second half to make it as good as RotCG was for me. It has some interesting parts, and a few interesting POV's, but man, a lot of it kind of drags and meanders and doesn't seem to know what it wants to do with itself. Esslemont seems to really want to match Erikson's effortless "marine in the trenches" type conversation/POV style and he really doesn't have the style for it. Stonewielder is really frustrating because it's very much a two small steps forward, one large step back thing for Esslemont. His world building has improved dramatically since RoTCG and he does a better job with characterization overall despite some very thin personalities and gimmick characters. On the other hand he has not improved his ability to juggle multiple POVs in the slightest, if anything the book manages to be more jumbled despite what should be a more straight forward plot. He gets lost in meaningless side POVs and ends up hurting the overall arc as a result. He's moved to "wait for many reviews" in the future for me, I love the Malazan universe but his stories don't really do it justice in my opinion.
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Jul 15, 2011 15:55
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Re: Raging about Kyle Not a spoiler: A Dance with Dragons has a Cletus. Just think about that. (I kept on thinking about Cletus van Damme.)
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Jul 17, 2011 18:58
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HUMAN FISH posted:Re: Raging about Kyle
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Jul 18, 2011 03:57
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How is Kyle on the same level as Cletus? Kyle is a main character who has a name that doesn't fit with anyone else in a 13 book cycle, and is a terrible character anyway. Cletus is SPOILER dead when hes introduced and in a book with people named Jon and Patrek and Gerold "Darkstar" Dayne.
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Jul 18, 2011 06:56
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Just started reading this series (working on book 2 on my kindle) and I'm already getting name-weary. I had pretty high hopes based on what I'd heard about it, but I'm not sure this one is for me. Some of it is just the gibberish apostrophe names throwing me out of the story every time they show up (and I really don't care if he had a reason for it or not--it's kind of a peeve for me and I just don't like it). The other thing is I find being thrown from one POV to another jarring, and if this is something that gets even more frequent as the series goes on I am not going to continue. I prefer limited POV narratives. When I find myself reading the POV of some bird flying around, at that point I'm thinking more about "why is this relevant" and am no longer absorbed in the story. I'm pretty selective about the fantasy I read anymore -- I don't have time to try to "get past" stylistic things that bug me if it's the sort of thing that kicks me out of the story every time they pop up. I'd rather find out that a series isn't for me early on than sink a bunch of money in books I'm not enjoying. I came to the thread to see what to expect later on--is it something that tightens up or (as I can see now) just gets more sprawling and diffuse. That's not the kind of book I like to read anymore, so I'm glad this info was here and I could see that it's probably one to move on from. Everything Burrito fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Jul 18, 2011 |
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Jul 18, 2011 07:15
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Ed Mungo posted:Just started reading this series (working on book 2 on my kindle) and I'm already getting name-weary. I had pretty high hopes based on what I'd heard about it, but I'm not sure this one is for me. Some of it is just the gibberish apostrophe names throwing me out of the story every time they show up (and I really don't care if he had a reason for it or not--it's kind of a peeve for me and I just don't like it). The other thing is I find being thrown from one POV to another jarring, and if this is something that gets even more frequent as the series goes on I am not going to continue. The best part is trying to pronounce them. I prefer saying "K'Chain Che'Malle" as "Kay-chain shemale".
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Jul 18, 2011 08:00
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i honestly don't understand how people get into fantasy in the first place if it's THAT jarring to read names with apostrophes
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Jul 18, 2011 09:37
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Ed Mungo posted:Just started reading this series (working on book 2 on my kindle) and I'm already getting name-weary. I had pretty high hopes based on what I'd heard about it, but I'm not sure this one is for me. Some of it is just the gibberish apostrophe names throwing me out of the story every time they show up (and I really don't care if he had a reason for it or not--it's kind of a peeve for me and I just don't like it). The other thing is I find being thrown from one POV to another jarring, and if this is something that gets even more frequent as the series goes on I am not going to continue. Better stop right now then and sell the books to a discount store.
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Jul 18, 2011 17:07
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So getting back into these books again, after not reading them for awhile. First time I went through them I didn't read them closely enough, and ended up giving up at the end of Bonehunters. Now reading them with the suggested reading order...and god drat is Memories of Ice a good book. So far it is just above and beyond everything else in the series (Up to Bonehunters right now.) Kinda glad Midnight Tides is done with though. Apart from a few awesome characters, the book took a long, long time to get nowhere. A tad too much moping and self-pity as well for my tastes.
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Jul 19, 2011 15:54
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My biggest issue with Midnight Tides was that it got a little cartoony. Tehol and Bugg danced the line to some extent, but Shurq Elalle and Ublala Pung were just ridiculous, and remained so for the entire series. It was somewhat jarring.
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Jul 19, 2011 16:53
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The Gunslinger posted:Stonewielder is really frustrating because it's very much a two small steps forward, one large step back thing for Esslemont. His world building has improved dramatically since RoTCG and he does a better job with characterization overall despite some very thin personalities and gimmick characters. On the other hand he has not improved his ability to juggle multiple POVs in the slightest, if anything the book manages to be more jumbled despite what should be a more straight forward plot. He gets lost in meaningless side POVs and ends up hurting the overall arc as a result. He's moved to "wait for many reviews" in the future for me, I love the Malazan universe but his stories don't really do it justice in my opinion. I finished Stonewielder a few days ago and it was pretty disappointing. Many of the plotlines hit dead ends at the finish lacking any kind of resolve or tie in to the other plot threads. Some POV characters Suth, Ivanr are boring and/or pointless. The returning characters were the most interesting, like the Crimson Guardsmen and Leoman. The ending goes out with more a whimper than a bang, as I found Return of the Crimson Guard's ending more entertaining and exciting, while Stonewielder's seemed a foregone conclusion. I don't know what ICE's next book is supposed to be about but I hope it focuses more on the Crimson Guard.
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Jul 21, 2011 08:59
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Hondo82 posted:
It will be in Darujhistan. Karsa and the Tyrant basically
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Jul 21, 2011 09:06
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I'm an ICE supporter, much more so than many, but I have to admit, him writing Karsa makes me cringe.
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Jul 21, 2011 09:16
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He's going to butcher the Karsa and Torvald reunion scene, the one that should have been in TTH drat it and I'm going to hate him for it.
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Jul 22, 2011 15:01
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Man, Night of Knives sucks. In Lore chat, how on earth were people ignorant of Kellanved and Dancer ascending into Shadow? There was a huge fight in the middle of Malaz city but everyone believed the official line for several years. In a related issue, one big problem I have with Erickson so far (through Midnight Tides) is that he falls into the fantasy pitfall that once a secret has been revealed to one character (and therefore us), it is no longer a real secret in the world and therefore any random new character will likely know the secret for no reason. This happened in the above spoiler, we were in the dark for a book or two about Shadowthrone and Cotillion, but after we discover that they are Kellanved/Dancer, then every new God, Claw, ascendant, mage, Tiste Andii, or whatever also happen to know this crucial fact. A related issue is that Quick Ben is a Mary Sue of random historical knowledge.
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Jul 22, 2011 16:42
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Quick Ben is a schizophrenic character who is exactly as powerful and knowledgeable as the narrative requires him to be at any given time. But I still like him, for whatever reason. That's the weird thing about Erikson - his books are highly flawed but still highly likable.
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Jul 22, 2011 16:49
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Sir Bruce posted:Man, Night of Knives sucks. I think Erikson was making the reveal that Shadowthrone and Cotillion are Kellanved and Dancer right in Gardens of the Moon. If you go back there's a bunch of clues and lines about it. The book even opens with a poem that says this. But nobody picked that up, so you have a character telling it out in cold in the second book, making it sound like a major plot twist instead of something natural.Something that a lesser character would not be clued in, but ascendants, gods, powerful mages and the reader was already aware. But yes it's a bit weird.
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Jul 22, 2011 16:55
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:Quick Ben is a schizophrenic character who is exactly as powerful and knowledgeable as the narrative requires him to be at any given time. But I still like him, for whatever reason. That's the weird thing about Erikson - his books are highly flawed but still highly likable. I think the huge roster and constant switching of narrative voices helps Erikson a lot here. We don't spend enough time with any one character for this stuff to really bother us. Plus there's the overwhelming sense that the main character is the world and not the actual people. Edit: ^^^ Perhaps I'm misremembering but wasn't it Quick Ben himself who had to be clued in about Kellanved/Shadowthrone? He had his suspicions but they didn't get confirmed until book 3?
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Jul 22, 2011 16:56
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Sir Bruce posted:Man, Night of Knives sucks. If you recall almost everyone in the city was holed up in the homes. Also the big fight that went down at the deadhouse I believe was shrouded in shadow or actually in the shadow realm where to outsiders it would have looked normal. Could be wrong tho... Sir Bruce posted:Perhaps I'm misremembering but wasn't it Quick Ben himself who had to be clued in about Kellanved/Shadowthrone? He had his suspicions but they didn't get confirmed until book 3? Quick Ben knew who they were because he was or was asked the be the Magei for Shadow. Instead Iscaral Pust is. Lunchtray fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Jul 22, 2011 |
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Jul 22, 2011 18:24
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If I were Kyle Dirtfarmer, living in Malaz city, I'd try pretty hard to avoid any knowledge of anything. Only brings trouble.
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Jul 22, 2011 22:35
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SO I just finished Deadhouse Gates. I still don't really understand what the hell Azath are. It's like a house? And also a plant? And they eat people?
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Jul 23, 2011 04:05
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