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I guess she could print this out and leave it near the toilet, http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance%20statement.pdf There are a bunch of resources in this gassed thread, http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3371365. I got really lucky, I found the training thread here two days before getting my puppy. I'd been all set to go and had read a bunch of Cesar stuff and some old school hunting lab training books. One suggested picking him up by the scruff and shaking him when he was being dominant. Just for fun, I came to PI and figured I'd read a bit about what goons were doing and turns out that should have been the very first thing I'd done. I don't think I would have ruined him but it's so much more fun to train when you're both happy and he's definitely better behaved than most other puppies his age that he's met. I'd say the best part is how much he trusts us. He likes water and had been swimming a few times but maybe for 10-15 seconds and always got nervous and ran back to where he could touch. I'd swam out to a little island about 100 yards offshore and my girlfriend figured she's come out too and he'd hang out with the dogs he was playing with on shore. Nope, he jumped in behind her and paddled with her for about 5 minutes, a huge jump and we hadn't had to push him at all. I'll have to make a little video but it really is just fun to train a dog that's having fun. Maybe Susan Calvin could teach the dog a simple trick with the clicker just to show them how easy it is?
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Jul 20, 2011 02:45
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Ikantski posted:http://www.ted.com/talks/ian_dunbar_on_dog_friendly_dog_training.html I sent the first one to my mom with a friendly (I hope) note along the lines of "Hey, a friend just got a new puppy and she's having great luck leash training him, she said she watched this video for ideas. Just a thought!" Here's hoping. I mean, on the one hand, the dog has a home with two people who will spoil the crap out of it ad love it to pieces, but on the other, they could be so much happier.
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Jul 20, 2011 02:58
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So, one of my dogs is quite good at barking on command, but the other is completely uninterested. They are Golden Retriever littermates, about 20 months old. Jack (the one that barks) was taught by me growling at him, him barking, and then treats. Eventually I moved this to a verbal command and he's great. Weston is a doofus. He has recently (finally) learned to shake and lay down. He won't bark for me! He will bark if he is outside and Jack is inside, so I know he can bark, I just don't know how to get him to do it on command.
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Jul 20, 2011 18:30
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Wojtek posted:Weston is a doofus. He has recently (finally) learned to shake and lay down. He won't bark for me! He will bark if he is outside and Jack is inside, so I know he can bark, I just don't know how to get him to do it on command. Will he bark for any toys, or if you make stupid sounds? Some dogs go nuts barking for a squeaky toy. Otherwise you could try standing outside with him and click/treating if he barks if he will do it when you're there. Do a couple of reps until he gets the hang of it, then try again later until he's barking quite a lot and introduce a verbal cue, then get it under stimulus control so he doesn't just bark constantly.
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Jul 20, 2011 18:35
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Fraction posted:Will he bark for any toys, or if you make stupid sounds? Some dogs go nuts barking for a squeaky toy.
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Jul 20, 2011 20:08
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Wojtek posted:He only barks when he wants to be where we are, e.g., he's outside and we are inside and he can see us. Even then he rarely does it. He doesn't react to toys besides biting them and only taking them if you let him. He's the most docile dog I've ever seen, but I want to command him, damnit. To capture a dog's barking you have to have a dog who barks first. Basically you need to set up a situation where he's going to bark and you can capture it. You say he'll bark when the other dog is outside? Well, sit down with a clicker and set up the situation where he's likely to bark. Click the moment of the bark and reward soon after. Then try again and again and again. Capturing takes a relatively long time, and there's no guarantee you'll be able to capture it effectively.
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Jul 20, 2011 20:13
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Took a video today to see how well/poorly I've been picking up on Good Things to mark and reward, and by luck I started the video as some crazy young girl started on-off screaming as she walked past a hundred feet or so away. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erA5-q8PXJ4 In the video we do LAT, and what I think is BAT but it probably isn't (but it seems to work)! The video is pretty much standard for how she responds to seeing other people, especially when we're not in a place with lots of noisy traffic. Is there anything I should be doing/am doing wrong? 
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Jul 20, 2011 20:33
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I just got an email back from my mother about the training video: "Thanks for thinking of me. I'm kind of at a loss as to why you'd send me this particular message, though. Do you think I need a 14-min speech on not being negative and inconsiderate in my communications?" I've already lost this fight, haven't I?
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Jul 21, 2011 02:37
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Susan Calvin posted:I just got an email back from my mother about the training video: There are two things people simply won't budge on: dog training and religion. (Okay, there's probably more than two things...) You can prosthelytize all you want, but unfortunately very very few people will even listen to what you have to say, let alone change their minds on how they treat their animals. I think the best way is to lead by example. Tough, I know, since you don't have dogs. I think people need to be shown the fruits of positive training more than anything. And sometimes that means a bit more than linking videos on the 'net. That's what I try to strive for with Cohen. (And even then I get comment after comment of, "you're spoiling her".) I was recently reading a blog post about something similar: The Four Phases of a Positive Reinforcement Trainer. It's tough to move past the "smug" phase into the "big picture" -- it takes time. Keep on being a positive influence, and try not to be preachy. (Not saying that you were... just that it's awfully easy to be.) Their dog is likely fine, if a bit frustrated. It's possible that they'll gradually warm up to an alternative training method with your help. Edit: It's possible your mother was genuinely confused, and not being snippy. I would break it down that there are new science-based training methodologies emerging, and that you feel like she'd have great success with her pup if she looked into them. Who knows? Might be worth a shot. Fraction posted:Took a video today to see how well/poorly I've been picking up on Good Things to mark and reward, and by luck I started the video as some crazy young girl started on-off screaming as she walked past a hundred feet or so away. I think things are going well when all I can think to say is that you want to make sure you're releasing your dog from control positions. As in, give a "break" after a "down", etc.  I think you more than understand the principles. Honestly the only other thing I can say is that you seemed a bit haphazard in your approach. It could have been because of the changing environment -- I couldn't see what was happening off-screen. I think it will pay off to be extremely methodical and patient in your drills. I also think Lola might be able to offer a bit more than a lookaway during BAT, but honestly I don't know your dog, so, well, I don't know. I love those snappy downs. She's a sharp girl! a life less fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Jul 21, 2011 |
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Jul 21, 2011 02:52
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a life less posted:There are two things people simply won't budge on: dog training and religion. (Okay, there's probably more than two things...) Sadly I have to agree with this, of the dozens of people I've talked to about dog training (even showing Darla doing 25 tricks in a row for a tiny bit of treat) I've managed to turn around exactly ONE person from old school type training methods. They seem to break out into - The ignorant, who just don't know of better methods (this was me) - The stubborn, who know goddamn well how to train a goddamn dog and don't want to hear anything different - The lazy ones, because it's easier to just yell at a dog than actually take the trouble to learn to communicate back and forth with one - The bullies, who (whether consciously or not) are gratified by intimidating a small animal Most people seem to fall into category #2. My own parents are horrible in this respect, and pretty much just scream "NO NO NO" whenever their dogs do anything except be like furniture. Consequently, their dogs have usually tended to be like furniture. quote:And even then I get comment after comment of, "you're spoiling her". I get this a lot too, along with variations like "you're being held hostage to giving treats" or "why don't you just smack that goddamn dog when she barks" (seriously). There are A LOT of people who have a practically unbreakable belief that dogs have to be treated harshly and "kept down", even when you show them the very dramatic differences in results. I think these folks are more in the 3rd and 4th categories. As for things that may convince someone to change their views on methods of dog training, the most dramatic one for me was the video by Dr. Sophia Yin where she deals with the Jack Russell Terrier that hated people blowing air at him (linked in the OP): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI13v9JgJu0 On a training-related note: A couple of days ago I bought a cheapie laser pointer. For Darla, it is the neatest thing she's ever played with, it takes her 15 minutes or so to settle down again once I put it away. If you happen to have a dog that is interested in this kind of thing (not all of them are, my two schnauzers aren't interested in it at all) it turns out to be very very good for teaching a "Look At That!" command - basically, point, yell "Look!" and trigger the laser where you're pointing. Darla is imo an extremely smart little dog, and I've been trying to teach her "Look!" for many months with little progress - she caught onto it with the laser almost immediately. Fraction posted:Is there anything I should be doing/am doing wrong? Are you still clicking for Down? Pretty sure you shouldn't still be using the clicker for behavior you've already got nailed down, I'd only click if I was teaching something new, or sharpening up something she already knows but is sloppy with. VVV Farrok posted:He follows my left hand around pretty well, but when I click he almost always moves out of position in order to get a treat. I don't want to not give it to him, since I clicked, but I want him to be in position. My own dog did this too. Spend some time with him and teach him the right place to be to get treats, without the clicker - make it obvious you have treats, and the trick he has to do is to be in the right place. It may seem like you're giving treats for nothing but that's what I had to do with Darla - actually this needs a little touch up work of late, but I still think that's a good way to handle it. Flesh Forge fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Jul 21, 2011 |
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Jul 21, 2011 05:30
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So following the advice from earlier about training with two dogs, I've been mostly training my big dog, Rodney, with the clicker and using 'yes' for the small dog, Beckett, when I can't separate them. It actually works pretty well because Beckett is a pretty good distractor for training Rodney. This is especially true when I train with toys, since Rodney is (approaching was!) much less willing to tolerate Beckett having a chance to get a toy than a treat. Hoping this will reduce his occasional toy aggression. In general, I've got Rodney doing good sit and down stays at the park in the presence of limited distractions and we're starting to work on moving down stays. He's learning to spin and knows roll over much better and he's getting much much better at targeting my hand so I don't have to use a food lure for long. However, I'm having a hell of a time getting him to heel. He follows my left hand around pretty well, but when I click he almost always moves out of position in order to get a treat. I don't want to not give it to him, since I clicked, but I want him to be in position. He understands not to move when I click during a sit/down stay. I started to deal with it by feeding him from my left hand, since its already at my side, but then its like I'm always using a food lure. How can I fix this? Also, usually during heel training, he seems to be under the impression that the game/work-time is over once he gets a treat, and he stops paying attention to me. Its especially problematic outside, which is tough for heel work since I don't have enough room in my house to do it properly.
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Jul 21, 2011 05:35
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Farrok posted:So following the advice from earlier about training with two dogs, I've been mostly training my big dog, Rodney, with the clicker and using 'yes' for the small dog, Beckett, when I can't separate them. It actually works pretty well because Beckett is a pretty good distractor for training Rodney. This is especially true when I train with toys, since Rodney is (approaching was!) much less willing to tolerate Beckett having a chance to get a toy than a treat. Hoping this will reduce his occasional toy aggression. Kiri Koli asked a similar question here about a dog popping out of heel position. I suggest you read that, the response, and the linked post. I reward for heeling via my left hand too. However if you want to continue to reward for your right I would apply what I mentioned in the aforementioned link and make it a "It's Your Choice" moment. Your dog needs to stay in the reinforcement zone regardless of where the food is. If the dog leaves the RZ the food goes away - reset and try again. This should drastically cut down on dogs "helping" you by popping up from downs to eat a reward, shuffling their bums for a treat, etc. As for the behaviour dipping after reinforcement, that's very common and something I still struggle with. Basically you have two options: reward more frequently, or less. Rewarding more frequently and sometimes offering 2, 3, 4 treats in a row should keep the dog guessing if the exercise is over or not. Rewarding less frequently means you'll have longer repetitions of desired behaviour -- I find this one is easier, but perhaps not ideal. Heeling is one of the few sustained behaviours we ask of our dogs -- they're completely right in thinking that 99% of the time food = exercise over. The way I've started dealing with it is I'll reward with food, signifying the end of the exercise. Then I'll immediately re-cue heel and start anew. If you're having a lot of trouble getting his attention back on you then odds are you've progressed too quickly: too many environmental distractions for your pup -- try again somewhere less exciting. As for using a lure while heeling, I'm of the mindset that it's okay at least for the first few months. Heeling is a really difficult behaviour for dogs, and you really need to pay into it in its early stages for it to be successful. I'm not sure how long you've been working on heel, but all the trainers I know spend months training it. Don't fade the rewards too quickly or you'll lose the behaviour.
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Jul 21, 2011 15:02
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a life less posted:There are two things people simply won't budge on: dog training and religion. (Okay, there's probably more than two things...) And her response to that was: "Just for the record, here’s what I see: Conceptually, in terms of dogs themselves, the 2 points of view are not terribly divergent. In terms of their attitudes toward and manner of working with humans, however, your lecturer's paternalistic disdain and negativity are a totally turn-off to me. He condescends and intellectualizes, but there is no in vivo demonstration. This is key. Anybody can talk about a theory. With Cesar, one gets the in vivo, in a way that preserves dignity for both human and dog. Although Cesar bases his observations about dogs on a power model, he has morphed since his first season: he demonstrates “calm & assertive” these days—and has for several years—no kicking or physically dominating and no confusing of the dog with “unknowable rules.” And his interactions with humans are respectful and collegial." I guess she didn't like Dunbar? My reply, and the last I hope to have to give was "I'm sorry that you felt he was paternalistic and patronizing. Ian Dunbar has been training dogs with great success for 25 years, and I thought it was informative. Part of my problem with Cesar's methods is they haven't worked in a lasting way for you. When you tssssst at the dog, it stops its behavior for the time, but Maverick still pulls the next time you go out on the leash. You've had good success with positive reinforcement, giving him food, and I thought that video would be a good basis for the underlying ideas I was trying to express. (A better examination of the two methods is here: http://www.pitbulls.org/article/cesar-millan-good-and-bad) You had said you were interested in resources I could provide, so I was trying to do that. If you no longer want them, that's fine, but please understand that I was trying to act in a friendly manner with regards to a past conversation, not make you feel demeaned or talked down to. If you are interested, here is a positive reinforcement demonstration of a method to stop pulling on the leash: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFgtqgiAKoQ If not, I understand." Comedy option: My mother has been a practicing clinical psychologist for 30 years. You'd think she would understand behaviorism.
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Jul 21, 2011 17:11
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Susan Calvin posted:With Cesar, one gets the in vivo, in a way that preserves dignity for both human and dog. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh9YOyM2TAk Yeah that's a real fuckin' dignified dog and human there. I don't care if he's supposedly "changed," he still bases his methods on dominance theory. I'm sorry, but your mother would make me bust a vein. 
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Jul 21, 2011 17:23
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Susan Calvin posted:Comedy option: My mother has been a practicing clinical psychologist for 30 years. You'd think she would understand behaviorism. I honestly think that there is something in the parent/child relationship that makes these kinds of discussions close to impossible. Both my parents are aware that I have been doing independent research in training and dog behavior for a while now, and that I'm enrolled in a school to learn to become a professional AND YET, the last time I was visiting, my sister's badly-socialized rescue Pom was yapping at something that was freaking him out, and my dad's response to this was to stomp his feet at the dog and shout "SHUT UP." When I said that he was just making the dog bark worse, he says "No, I'm reinforcing it." ...I really don't know what he thinks that word means.
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Jul 21, 2011 17:37
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Susan Calvin posted:Apparently my mother has her crazypants tightly cinched around her waist, becuase my reply to her was, "No, I thought it was an interesting counterpoint to Cesar Milan's dog training." I've never seen the term in vivo used that way, but with your mom's background I guess it makes sense. :I I'm surprised she's so resistant to evidence, too.
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Jul 21, 2011 17:37
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wtftastic posted:I've never seen the term in vivo used that way, but with your mom's background I guess it makes sense. :I She's also maddeningly pretentious, but the how-and-why of my relationship with my mother could close down e/n in despair. If I didn't have 26 years of dealing with her (notice all the I-statements in my note to her, that poo poo drives my friends insane) I would probably have killed someone at that email. As it is I rolled my eyes, closed the laptop, and went to bed, resolving that the problem would still be there and stupid in the morning. I also think she watched the first minute of the Dunbar video, got angry, decided it was going to be 15 minutes of "insults" and stopped watching, but there's no way to ask her if that's true without making my life harder than it needs to be.
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Jul 21, 2011 17:51
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Susan Calvin posted:Comedy option: My mother has been a practicing clinical psychologist for 30 years. You'd think she would understand behaviorism. That is pretty funny. Susan Calvin posted:He condescends and intellectualizes, but there is no in vivo demonstration. This is key. Anybody can talk about a theory. Most dog trainers don't have TV shows since real dog training is loving BORING TO WATCH. Everyone's favourite R+ TV trainer has had to resort to lovely dominatrix gimmicks to keep people watching. Something that may appeal to her clinical background is that Cesar's methods (and the bulk of traditional training) rely on shutting behaviour down without offering any alternatives. Whereas the newer training methodologies teach dogs to LOVE doing the right behaviour. So instead of telling your dog (or child), "don't do that... or that... or that... or that...", you're telling them, "here, do this instead, you'll enjoy it!". It requires some ingenuity and patience, and it's not as easy as leash popping or tsssting whenever your dog does something you don't agree with, but training your dog to love doing what you want it to do pays off huge in the long run.
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Jul 21, 2011 18:09
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You could clicker train your cat to spite her. She said Cesar Milan dignifies and Ian Dunbar is condescending, that's awesome. I really don't think you'll be the one to change your mom's mind and it actually sounds like she won't try it just to spite you now but here is a nice compilation of Cesar kicking dogs, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFCGtatpCwI
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Jul 21, 2011 18:21
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Ikantski posted:You could clicker train your cat to spite her. Do it! Turn your cat into this cat and then turn on the  I clicker trained my guinea pig and my old roommate's cats and it was always a huge hit at parties.
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Jul 21, 2011 18:31
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a life less posted:I think things are going well when all I can think to say is that you want to make sure you're releasing your dog from control positions. As in, give a "break" after a "down", etc. I'll start introducing a break from down - usually the click for it marks the end, hence why she got up I was chopping and changing methods so much because it was a weird, more distracting than usual situation with the girl screaming and pushing a pram and being generally annoying. I was also trying to keep her moving as I have a habit of standing still and tense when concentrating, which transmits badly to Lola.For BAT, what should I look for her to be doing next? An extended look away, or some other calming/displacement activity? I love her downs, honestly. It's her default behaviour too, which is awesome as it also seems to calm her down. So thank you! Flesh Forge I still click for downs because it's such a high distracting situation - when she listens to cues, she's working under pretty hard distractions as well as reacting non-aggressively. But I do also click for behaviours indoors, if we do puppy pushups or run through her tricks. I generally use clicking or a marker word, but I prefer clicking when we are in situations like that because the sharper sound gets through to her better.
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Jul 22, 2011 08:47
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Just thought I would drop by with an update on the angry black Labrador. They are hiring a trainer and will be going there with their dog to learn how to better handle him while he learns how to better behave. Til then I decided to try something new since I have him at my house often. I'm totally ignoring the dog. I don't look at him, speak to him, say his name or even acknowledge his existence at any time, even when he barks at me. At first nothing changed. After a day of this he started acting confused and would chase me around to sniff at me. This morning he begged for my attention and I gave him a treat, which he sat down to eat. Afterwards he darted under a table like he used to do when he was smaller. Progress maybe.
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Jul 22, 2011 13:13
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We have a fearful sheltie. Somewhat fearful anyways. She's not keen on adults but loves kids. Anyways, our trainer told us to do the ignore trick and to have a new person randomly throw out treats if she got close to sniff, etc. It takes awhile but it works. We normally don't work with treats because she's praise motivated but I've made an exception when it comes to her being socialized and becoming a confidant happy sheltie. Now if there is a large dog trying to get up in her grill she'll be anyone's best friend so long as she can hide between their legs or on their lap. Small progress is at least progress. Our cats are trained to sit for their food. They try to cheat sometimes and do a semi-sit where their butts aren't touching the floor but they look like their sitting. They're getting crafty, or just lazy. Our old cat could also give paw on command.
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Jul 22, 2011 17:55
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Susan is your mom the type to refuse to believe or learn anything new after they've decided what they've learned the first time is right? Cesar probably enforces dog training that your mom grew up with, reaffirming that she's right because there's someone ~popular~ and ~modern~ doing it under the guise of some buzzwords.
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Jul 22, 2011 18:14
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Are dogs less likely to obey when they're hot? It's been mad hot here, and I have no AC in my apartment, and Marlo is clearly uncomfortable. He only seems willing to sit. I tried upping the value of the treat and he very reluctantly did a "down," but wouldn't shake with either hand, and barely waved (his favorite trick). He will touch though. He's about 6 months old so I don't know if this is a stage of his maturation. I hope this doesn't mean I'll have to start over from scratch. Also, I'm looking for some advice on how to interpret some of his behavior (possible aggression). My friend has a smaller pug/boston terrier mix, and they play a lot together, it's lighthearted and if one of them yelps the other backs off. However, Marlo gets fed around 5-5:30, and the couple of times I've fed him while over there he is very protective about his food. He'll bark and growl if the dog is even just staring at him close by. He'll nip pretty hard, but won't go after him. He does the same thing when I am doing training and the other dog is in the proximity. The really scary thing is that I went to take a bowl of food away from him (it wasn't his, it was left on the ground), and he growled and mouthed (no pressure) my wrist. He seems to eat as long as there is food in front of him, and I think it's probably from his days on the street, competing with his litter mates for food. He acts similarly about toys. I'm thinking it's: Possessive Aggression: dogs that use confrontational behaviour and/or displays to obtain or retain a valued object or location. The resource's importance is defined BY THE DOG, and not related to status issues (i.e. Control Conflict Aggression). Characterized by freezing when approached with this time, lowering their head and neck, and a warning may or may not be given before the dog lunges. Even as pups, these dogs will have difficulty relinquishing toys or objects that they want. Possessive Aggression - Food Related: same as above, but framed in terms of food (guarding a food bowl, the location where the food bowl is usually stored, or high value food such as pig's ears, stolen food, etc). Both forms of possessive aggression are very dangerous, especially around children. but when I've mentioned it, people seem to think it's just "puppies don't like to share." I'm most concerned about the food, because of his growling and mouthing me.
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Jul 22, 2011 18:50
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Newbsylberry posted:Are dogs less likely to obey when they're hot? It's been mad hot here, and I have no AC in my apartment, and Marlo is clearly uncomfortable. He only seems willing to sit. I tried upping the value of the treat and he very reluctantly did a "down," but wouldn't shake with either hand, and barely waved (his favorite trick). He will touch though. He's about 6 months old so I don't know if this is a stage of his maturation. I hope this doesn't mean I'll have to start over from scratch. Dogs are less likely to 'obey' when they aren't having fun. The best time for your dog to do tricks is when he's excited (but not overexcited). Dogs that are uncomfortable (too hot, upset stomach) won't get their excitement up. Some dogs will still do a trick because it's so deeply ingrained even if it isn't fun, but your dog is young and possibly not there yet. It could be puppy stubbornness or a gap in your training technique, but if he's obviously uncomfortable, I say wait out the heat. For the other thing, don't listen to others (puppies don't like to share, wtf?), your dog has resource guarding issues. I've not dealt with this extensively, so maybe others can help more, but the basic rules are: -don't take objects away from your dog that he is likely to guard. Don't put him in a situation where he has to defend himself. If you need something from him, trade it for something better. If he won't just give it up and is reacting when you even come near, get out something irresistible and lead him into another room to eat it/play with it. Then you (with the door closed) remove the object he was guarding without him seeing. -manage the situation by removing things that trigger your dog. If your dog can't handle eating with another dog present, then feed him by himself. If he keeps stealing and guarding your lucky sock, put it where he can't get it. If he guards a certain toy, guess what, that toy is going away for now. -practice 'drop it' with a low value object and trading it for a higher value object. Then slowly move up to 'drop it' with higher value objects. -for toys, have clear ends to play time where his favorite toys are to be given up and put away until the next game. -buy and read the book Mine! by Jean Donaldson
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Jul 22, 2011 19:50
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Kiri koli posted:For the other thing, don't listen to others (puppies don't like to share, wtf?), your dog has resource guarding issues. I've not dealt with this extensively, so maybe others can help more, but the basic rules are: Maybe I'm kidding myself, but I don't think it's that severe of an issue (yet)I have taken toys from him, I've taken raw meaty bones from him, I've taken tons of poo poo from him without any issue. I think the big thing is food when he's hungry, I've always fed him in his crate, but I think I'll start feeding him out where I make my breakfast and getting him used to that. I'll probably sit near to him, and give him some treats for tolerating me (although I don't think he'll have an issue). Eventually I'll trade valuable things (cheese, hot dogs, peanut butter) with him for his bowl. Well first thing I'll do is buy and read that book, I'm sure my "strategy" will change once I'm better informed... (what do you guys think of this website?
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Jul 22, 2011 20:39
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Today Lola had to go to the vets. In the waiting area was an old collie, staring at her hard. I cued her to leave it and she did - she sniffed around, glanced at it, glanced at me--and didn't once posture, bark or growl. And then in the actual vet room, she accepted several treats from the palm of the vet's hand, let her lightly touch her whilst sniffing her, and after the indignity of having her eyes opened and her ears checked (the vet was expertly holding her collar, as I told her Lola can be very anxious around strangers in close proximity, so that she couldn't try to bite) although she tried to hide behind my legs and pawed at me a lot, I ignored her and she eventually ate another three treats from the vet's hand. Progress 
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Jul 22, 2011 21:01
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Death Himself posted:Just thought I would drop by with an update on the angry black Labrador. It sounds like some progress. Just remember that behaviour modification takes months. So definitely celebrate any progress you see, but be prepared to have to work with the dog for quite a bit of time yet. Newbsylberry posted:Are dogs less likely to obey when they're hot? Yep. Definitely normal. Newbsylberry posted:Maybe I'm kidding myself, but I don't think it's that severe of an issue (yet)I have taken toys from him, I've taken raw meaty bones from him, I've taken tons of poo poo from him without any issue. I think the big thing is food when he's hungry, I've always fed him in his crate, but I think I'll start feeding him out where I make my breakfast and getting him used to that. I'll probably sit near to him, and give him some treats for tolerating me (although I don't think he'll have an issue). Eventually I'll trade valuable things (cheese, hot dogs, peanut butter) with him for his bowl. Anything from Ahisma is awesome. Are you close by? I would see them in person for classes if you are. Good info in the link. Also check out http://www.4pawsu.com/Donaldson.pdf -- it's a resource guarding PDF written by the woman who literally wrote the book on resource guarding. It's great that you've identified it as a problem and are taking steps to rectify it. Addressing resource guarding early is absolutely ideal. Management is key, especially in dog v dog situations. Don't feed him when others are around, period. The book will set out drills where you approach the bowl or object and just drop extra special food in. I don't think just hanging out beside him is ideal, since it can be stressful. Also you want you approaching to become a cue for the imminent arrival of good things. Sounds like you're on the right path though. Good luck. Fraction posted:
All of the above? I might wait her out once she's caught up to the game to see if she offers anything else up. Wish I knew more!
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Jul 22, 2011 22:10
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Kerfuffle posted:Susan is your mom the type to refuse to believe or learn anything new after they've decided what they've learned the first time is right? I spoke with my mother on the phone today, which was so frustrating I actually had to cry about it. Her problem with Dunbar in that video was he didn't "do anything" he "just talked." And anyway, she says Cesar doesn't claim to be a dog trainer, he's a PEOPLE trainer. (What does any of this mean? Lord only knows.) She claims Cesar teaches her to calm herself down and "own the dog" which, okay, sure, whatever. When asked she admitted that she has never done any independent research on Cesar and asked me what the worst he could do was. I tried to tell her that his methods were hazardous for Bully breeds, that they are sensitive dogs, and some of his methods will cause them to shut down or become violent. Then she tried to tell me I was talking about my own mental problems, abuse and depression, and that's the only reason I cared how she trained her dog. That's about when I gave up. I can't do this with her, it costs too much emotionally.
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Jul 23, 2011 01:57
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Susan Calvin posted:Her problem with Dunbar in that video was he didn't "do anything" he "just talked." And anyway, she says Cesar doesn't claim to be a dog trainer, he's a PEOPLE trainer. (What does any of this mean? Lord only knows.) Yes because Dunbar has simply talked his way into being one of the foremost family dog trainers in the States. Fun fact: he doesn't actually know what a dog is. Your mother sounds immensely frustrating. Sorry.  This is one of those situations where you really have to pick your battles. Dunbar is actually coming by Toronto (first time in Canada in like 7 years) and is being hosted by my training school. He's doing a 3 day seminar aimed at industry professionals in... September I think? Still not sure I'm going to go ($$$). He's a great speaker, and a pretty decent trainer.
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Jul 23, 2011 02:02
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a life less posted:Yes because Dunbar has simply talked his way into being one of the foremost family dog trainers in the States. Fun fact: he doesn't actually know what a dog is. Oh my god this made me laugh for the first time today. FUN FACT: Ian Dunbar once spent 45 hours trying to teach a spider to fetch before he was told that "dogs are bigger than that."
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Jul 23, 2011 02:10
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Susan Calvin posted:Oh my god this made me laugh for the first time today. FUN FACT: Ian Dunbar once spent 45 hours trying to teach a spider to fetch before he was told that "dogs are bigger than that." Fun fact: Ian Dunbar's first draft was titled Before and After Skinning Your Puppy
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Jul 23, 2011 02:31
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a life less posted:Fun fact: Ian Dunbar's first draft was titled Before and After Skinning Your Puppy Fun Fact: Ian Dunbar is pretty sure that a Schipperke is something you serve with ice cream.
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Jul 23, 2011 03:01
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Susan Calvin posted:She claims Cesar teaches her to calm herself down and "own the dog" which, okay, sure, whatever. Your mom's a bully. Sorry to be the one to break it to you.
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Jul 23, 2011 04:27
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Flesh Forge posted:Your mom's a bully. Sorry to be the one to break it to you. Nah, my mom is dangerously insane. It's easy to confuse the two.
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Jul 23, 2011 05:04
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Well, we had a little roller coaster ride over the last two days. I take my pup to obedience class yesterday and we're working on off leash walking. Some food falls out of this woman's treat pouch and Marlo starts eating it. Another dog walks over and I start to get nervous but Marlo doesn't react act all, he's totally cool. I feed him last night, and take his food bowl from him a couple times and he sits and waits for me to give it back. Feeling pretty good about little buddies outlook. HOWEVER, this morning we go to puppy kindergarten, and he spends the "socialization" period going up to other people with treats in their hands and chasing off other dogs who come close, barking and growling. It's enough concern to the instructor that she recommended I leash him, and have me walk him around to the other dogs while they're getting fed and have me call him to me. He's fine with that. I think his triggers are smaller dogs, and when the dogs sneak up on him (each time this happened he was sitting staring at the person with the treats and the puppy came up from behind). She kept saying, "He's a teenager, trying different things on for size, and if it's working for him he'll keep doing it." I'm about a quarter of a way through that mine book, but this is definitely frustrating. I definitely won't go back to PK though, because I think being in such a small space with lots of food, and other dogs is asking for an incident.
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Jul 23, 2011 16:06
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Newbsylberry posted:Well, we had a little roller coaster ride over the last two days. I take my pup to obedience class yesterday and we're working on off leash walking. Some food falls out of this woman's treat pouch and Marlo starts eating it. Another dog walks over and I start to get nervous but Marlo doesn't react act all, he's totally cool. I feed him last night, and take his food bowl from him a couple times and he sits and waits for me to give it back. Feeling pretty good about little buddies outlook. Re the bolded part above: I don't think it's a) wise or b) necessary for you to be taking away his food bowl. Trading, sure. But I kind of think you should backtrack and start the exercises outlined in Mine from square one. If you rush them, you risk having a shoddy foundation. A shoddy foundation can cause later behaviours to fall apart. My dog also has food guarding issues with other dogs, so I sympathize. My coping methods are that I will never feed her if other dogs are close by, and I request that no one else feeds her either. If she does something I want to reward I'll back up while praising to bridge the time, then reward when we finally break away from off-leash dogs. It takes a while to get to this point, but it's possible with some work. I have zero problems in training classes since when I'm out with her we're working and she's focused on me (and other dogs on their handlers) so there's no urge to guard. Please don't write off classes altogether. Maybe the PK is a bit too much right now. Or maybe you can approach the person organizing the events, and ask if you can use these sessions as opportunities to work through some of the guarding behaviour. It's an important behaviour to nip in the bud, it's completely normal, and can be trained out to almost imperceptible degrees. Finally, the problem is when your dog lashes out the other dogs are likely to recoil. This is exactly what your guy wants, so it's "working for him". That's what makes dog-dog guarding issues more difficult. So you need to really manage his behaviour so he's not given the opportunity to lash out, while getting him used to behaving properly when other pups are around.
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Jul 23, 2011 22:24
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a life less posted:Yeah, I know, I was just kind of in denial, so I figured, "well if I can take his bowl away, it means he doesn't have the issue." Pretty stupid logic, I know, especially considering the alternative, "Welp, we can work on your issue when I get back from the hospital." He's in obedience class and he's fine, I just think PK is a small area with dogs that aren't as aware about how they approach as older dogs, and lots of treats and stuff. I'm a big fan of classes, and I'm sure once I get to the activities in Mine! I'll be eager to take stinky out and practice with him. On another more positive note, the trainer used Marlo as the example for recall because he's really good at not only coming but sitting and waiting. It was hard for my heart not to swell up.
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Jul 23, 2011 22:56
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Okay, I need some advice. My corgi pup Nova is 14 weeks old now and she learns fast. But, she won't leave my poor cats alone. She barks at them constantly, runs after them, etc. It's just playful stuff, but my cats understandably hate this. One of them will give her a slap and she pretty much leaves him alone, but my other cat is more shy and runs from her. She knows leave it but she's gotten to where she'll bark at the cat, I'll say leave it and when she does I'll treat her, but then she runs right back and barks and then looks at me expecting a command + treat.  So, how do I train this dog to leave them alone? Time outs don't seem to be having any effect.
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Jul 24, 2011 02:10
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