|
CyRaptor posted:This is a joke right? KDiZD is notorious for stripping away everything that makes Doom Doom, having confusing level design and gameplay, and being an excercise in excessiveness. It's a good example of what the Doom engine is technically capable of, but it's not a good example of an enjoyable experience. I played some KDIZD properly for the first time yesterday, and I have to agree to a point. I sort of enjoyed it, it was challenging, use of custom monsters and monster placement was well thought out, the level design was an interesting take on E1, I could see what they were doing (showing what zdoom engine was capable of)... but I prefer faster intense game play. Wads like Scythe to me are the epitome of what Doom is all about gameplay-wise. So I prefer Double Impact over KDIZD, but its a matter of taste :-) Vita posted:I closed out KDiZD as soon as I saw there was an opening cutscene. ddraigcymraeg fucked around with this message at 03:46 on Jul 22, 2011 |
#
?
Jul 22, 2011 03:44
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 05:05 |
|
|
tooooooo bad posted:Pretty sure people on Doomworld literally hate fun. What is the name for this? Maybe the NMA effect? Or have they become more sane since the "Death to Bethesda" days? Game fudds?
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2011 03:45
|
|
tooooooo bad posted:Pretty sure people on Doomworld literally hate fun. Yeah, I was the one who first brought up those awards on the other 2.5D thread. The biggest irony is that they bash AEoD for being pointless and excessive in a game with a virtually nonexistent plot and emphasis on killing lots of poo poo, fast. Then he says the effort would have been better spent on crafting a medieval style map or "A lost UAC base with demons run amuck where you must find all the parts to a hidden "Big Gun" while defeating 3 skeletons?"  Basically the guy's a moron. He's saying, "This sports game is terrible because they spent all this effort when they could have made a strategy game."
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2011 03:48
|
|
|
tooooooo bad posted:Pretty sure people on Doomworld literally hate fun. Aeons of death sucks. Hope this helps.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2011 03:52
|
|
fishmech posted:Aeons of death sucks. Hope this helps. I enjoy it, and I know a lot of other people do, as well. Hope this helps.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2011 03:57
|
|
|
To be honest, nothing they say about AEoD is actually wrong. It all comes down to whether you find that kind of thing entertaining; they don't, I do, and I respect their opinion.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2011 04:07
|
|
|
WickedIcon posted:To be honest, nothing they say about AEoD is actually wrong. It all comes down to whether you find that kind of thing entertaining; they don't, I do, and I respect their opinion. Saying "I don't like this thing" is a pretty far cry from "worst WAD of the year".
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2011 04:11
|
|
|
treat posted:Wait, did you just say Doom isn't about confusing level design? Confusing in the sense of not knowing where you're going, not confusing by being abstract or nonsensical in structure. There are definitely a few points in the classic Doom games where the way to progress is genuinely obtuse, but on the whole it's pretty hard to get lost. Most of the mappers working on Doom & Doom II were pretty good about creating recognizable landmarks and making continuity throughout a level visible and obvious. The sole exception is Tom Hall, whose approach to level design consisted mainly of just making a ton of arbitrarily interconnected square rooms without any purpose or sense of progression in them (E2M3, E2M7, E3M3, Map10; and Sandy Petersen's E2M5 is similar in that respect). They're mostly holdovers from early versions of the game when it was supposed to have a more "realistic" feel to it, and Sandy did a pretty good job in trying to salvage them into playable levels, but most of their design flaws are still present in the final game. I feel like KZiZD has the same problem - focusing on making a ton of unremarkable, indistinguishable rooms rather than a few memorable ones. The mappers spent way too much time on adding asinine amounts of detail to each room while missing the big picture of the level as a whole. That, combined with the fact that they felt it necessary to shoehorn in every weapon and monster mod they could find without any concern over maintaining gameplay balance, doesn't do a whole lot for the "fun" factor for me. Maybe it does for other people, but I don't think I should have to apologize for thinking it's anything more than a pretty-looking failure. Edit: The other thing you have to take into account when questioning people's negative reaction to KZiZD is the context of its release. It was a high-profile project that had been in development for something like five years. It was touted as a faithful modern update of the Episode 1 "experience", and it didn't really deliver on any of the fronts it promised. Even though its map layouts were supposed to be based on the originals, they changed them into something so unrecognizable that it sort of defeated the purpose of staying within those guidelines to begin with. I suppose that in a vacuum, or maybe just with hindsight, it isn't a terrible game , but it's not what we were promised. So maybe I'm just bitter. CyRaptor fucked around with this message at 04:45 on Jul 22, 2011 |
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2011 04:28
|
|
|
CyRaptor posted:I feel like KZiZD has the same problem - focusing on making a ton of unremarkable, indistinguishable rooms rather than a few memorable ones. The mappers spent way too much time on adding asinine amounts of detail to each room while missing the big picture of the level as a whole. That, combined with the fact that they felt it necessary to shoehorn in every weapon and monster mod they could find without any concern over maintaining gameplay balance, doesn't do a whole lot for the "fun" factor for me. Maybe it does for other people, but I don't think I should have to apologize for thinking it's anything more than a pretty-looking failure. For me, the fun of KZiZD is the feeling of familiarity, yet strangeness of the levels. I like the fact that playing a level makes me go through a familiar secret area, and that makes me wonder where the REAL secret has been moved to. I like the scripted events like getting the blue key in Z1M3 where nothing happens when I pick up the key, and I feel the apprehension of thinking what is there to replace the old trap. Although I think I may have been aware of KZiZD when it was announced, it was basically off my radar for the years it spent in development, so I've never carried the baggage around of what it was "supposed" to be or what it set out to be. I feel no missed expectations when playing it, only the fun of playing Doom again for the first time. My only complaint so far is that the levels are too huge and take too long to complete. I think I'm on Z1M4 now.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2011 06:34
|
|
|
KDiZD has some pretty glaring faults but on the balance I'm happy it exists. Most of the custom monsters are well done (the Baron recolor with the alpha lost skull head did look kinda bad, though) and the maps are recognizable enough to be cool while taking advantage of everything that'd been learned in the past decade and change about creating atmosphere in a Doom map. As for how memorable it is, I can remember off the top of my head about as many setpieces from KDiZD as I can from vanilla E1. The secret exit in Z1M3, the huge room with the spinal columns growing through the ceiling and floor in one of the later maps, the exit sequence in Z1M7, and pretty much all of Z1M8. The one place they go overboard is adding far too many unneeded extra areas to some maps; Z1M3's basement is probably the most egregious offender here and it's one I believe the team for TSoZD has explicitly said they're taking as an example of what not to do. Stylistically it's about perfect to me. It feels like Doom 3 done the way I wanted it to be, with artistic and gameplay influences much closer to the original Doom. One valid criticism that could be leveled as a result of this is that there's a lot too much infernal corruption to jive with id's original concept of E1, but I like that style better anyway so it's kind of an upside for me... pure techbase levels have almost always bored me and while I have the same nostalgic boner for E1 as most of us, now that I've seen the breadth of Doom mapping it's hard to get as excited about sterile techbases that happen to have hellspawn and zombies in them for some reason. In the one place where E1 started to get creepy, E1M8, KDiZD just turns it up that much further. The bruiserdemon fight is IMO just about the perfect answer to the question of how to take the vibe of seeing those Barons for the first time and port it forward to 21st-century expectations of difficulty in PWADs. The infamous Magmantis is something I can take or leave... it didn't ruin the episode for me the way it apparently did for some people but I wouldn't have complained if it wasn't there at all.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2011 06:54
|
|
|
treat posted:Wait, did you just say Doom isn't about confusing level design? Yes, there were a few bits in Doom that were too mazy, because Tom Hall is bad at making fun levels. This is not an excuse to turn Doom into Hexen-style switchhunting.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2011 08:27
|
|
|
I think my post got lost in the KDiZD shuffle, so here it is again if anyone has any suggestions:Spincut posted:On a different topic, I have been enjoying playing through the original Doom with Brutal Doom on, and was wondering if there was anything similar for Heretic? Something in the vein of Beautiful Doom or ReDoom would be cool too.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2011 18:43
|
|
|
Arcsech posted:Edit: Playing Brutal Doom a bit more, how do I disable reloading? I'm too used to playing Doom normally, wading into a cluster of imps, firing, & having your guy go into the stupid reloading animation is the definition of unfun. Don't forget you can kick! Kicking comes in handy sometimes.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2011 19:35
|
|
|
CyRaptor posted:I generally enjoy getting "lost" in most games I play because I've either got a great innate sense of direction or all the years I've invested into iD games have left me unhappy with anything other than intricate level designs. I just played through Z1M1 for the first time, though, and I absolutely understand what you're saying. I ended up running around the the map twice before I discovered the side room that lead to the red key card. It's convoluted and cluttered as hell, but as a reinterpretation of episode 1, I think I'll be more than willing to put up with it. One question though: Is KDiZD designed with enabled jumping in mind? There are quite a few spots that look like secrets that could be easily jumped to, but I haven't been able to find any other alternate paths to them short of searching the entire level for some switch that'll activate an elevator or bridge.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2011 20:03
|
|
|
treat posted:One question though: Is KDiZD designed with enabled jumping in mind? There are quite a few spots that look like secrets that could be easily jumped to, but I haven't been able to find any other alternate paths to them short of searching the entire level for some switch that'll activate an elevator or bridge. The maps are designed with jumping in mind. There are some jumping puzzles (ugh) required to get to secrets, and I think you have to jump in order to get the seismic bomb (at least, it's MUCH EASIER to get with jumping). As for running around and getting lost, I find that the new map features like coloured doors and switch indicator icons help a lot telling me where to go next.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2011 20:39
|
|
|
Finally got around to getting Quake properly set up with Darkplaces, hi-res textures and a few tweaks and holy gently caress it looks incredible. Unfortunately my screenshots don't really do it justice, but here you go anyway... http://i.imgur.com/ZpY9r.jpg http://i.imgur.com/YFqBU.jpg http://i.imgur.com/Dxg0f.jpg Check out Tecman's post from the Steam thread for all the info (and some better screenshots)
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2011 23:10
|
|
|
SmokaDustbowl posted:Don't forget you can kick! Kicking comes in handy sometimes. It really is, actually. I wish it'd 'interrupt' animations a little more aggressively, but if you're caught out reloading with a demon about to chew your face off, booting it in the chin works pretty well.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2011 23:13
|
|
|
Can I get brutal doom to work with the doomsday engine?
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2011 02:42
|
|
|
Don't think so, I don't think people mess with Doomsday much anymore. Wish Zdoom would let me have the same glaring lens flares though. Is there an easy demo recording utility for Zdoom? I want to record video of playthroughs, but I can't do that at full screen so I want to play it back later windowed.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2011 02:54
|
|
|
Ah, I wasn't aware people don't use doomsday as much. Do other renderers have high texture graphics and models? I have been mostly glancing over the doom stuff here, playing quake too much. Sorry about that. E: So I decided to just get skulltag. Seems like the most advanced engine, with mutliplayer! Brutal Doom is awesome. Kazvall fucked around with this message at 05:01 on Jul 23, 2011 |
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2011 03:08
|
|
|
Quirk posted:Is there an easy demo recording utility for Zdoom? I want to record video of playthroughs, but I can't do that at full screen so I want to play it back later windowed. Simply add the "-record filename" parameter when launching ZDoom. To stop the recording, either drop the console down and type in "stop" or exit the game. Edit: If by easy you mean you don't want to fart around with a command line during recording sessions, using the custom parameters field in QLZD is probably your best bet. A FUCKIN CANARY!! fucked around with this message at 07:57 on Jul 23, 2011 |
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2011 07:41
|
|
|
Take note of which version of z/gzdoom/Skulltag you are using for demos, since they will not work on any other version. This also applies to saves.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2011 09:35
|
|
|
Regarding balance on Brutal Doom shotgun vs SSG, they're both balanced and the normal shotgun got actuallybuffed in Brutal Doom. How? In Doom (or doom2 where i took this fast pic for test) the shotgun fired 7 pellets per shot in an horizontal spread (not even a cone spread). The super shotgun fired 10 pellets per barrel, making it 20 in a cone spread. Meaning that the shotgun got vastly outdated compared to the SSG:  (normal shotgun left and SSG spread right) In Brutal Doom the shotgun got reload just because it would just be better than the SSG in anything but point-blank range. The SSG keeps its 10 pellets per shell/barrel and the shotgun goes from 7 to 10. You may say that the SSG has the single-shot mode and would still be better. Well no, the spread of the shotgun is really tighter making it a better weapon past just a few meters, even able to score nice headshots (just to remind that in brutal doom you should aim for the head) at further distance without wasting pellets/ammo:  You can guess wich spread belongs to wich weapon. The shotgun is not only way better in Brutal doom, but is even viable and nice at distances you wouldnt expect with the headshot damage feature. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2011 11:22
|
|
|
Do you know what Brutal Doom needs? More blood. MORE BLOOOOOOOAAAGGHHHHRGHHHHAHRHHGHHHH
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2011 11:24
|
|
|
Guillermus posted:The shotgun is not only way better in Brutal doom, but is even viable and nice at distances you wouldnt expect with the headshot damage feature. Seriously, this is one of the main reasons I love the mod. Every weapon actually has a use. The chaingun no longer is completely obsoleted by the plasma gun, the single-barrel shotgun has mid-range combat use, and the pistol is replaced by the new sniper weapon, instead of just using 2-shot bursts with the chaingun. The plasma gun got a tweak (wouldn't say it's a nerf, though) by adding a tiny bit of splash damage, making it a little better against crowds but worse up close. The spread-cannon altfire on it is great for popping around a corner and smacking something hard, too. If you consider Doom to be a complete peerless classic that can never be improved upon, you'll probably hate all that, but I honestly think that the changes are for the better. Kazvall posted:E: So I decided to just get skulltag. Seems like the most advanced engine, with mutliplayer! Brutal Doom is awesome. Just note that Skulltag, while having great netcode, runs on a slightly outdated version of GZDoom. If you're just playing solo, you'll want this instead. And yeah, Doomsday is effectively dead now. Most newer stuff requires some variant of GZdoom nowadays. Dominic White fucked around with this message at 11:44 on Jul 23, 2011 |
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2011 11:40
|
|
|
Yeah, if the Brutal Doom shotgun was supposed to be about ruining Doom with realism, he wouldn't have made it hold twelve motherfucking shells. The only complaint I can come up with about Brutal Doom is that the sights on the rifle are just there to look cool and can't actually be used for aiming. (The actual point of impact is several feet off.)
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2011 12:12
|
|
|
I enjoy having an empty shotgun, picking up 4 shells, pressing reload, loading 6 into it and only firing the 4 I just got 
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2011 12:19
|
|
|
It'd be nice if the shotgun auto reloaded immediately after you've fired the last cartridge, rather than waiting until you go to fire again. I dunno how many times I've been shot because I've put myself into the line of fire and when I go to shoot I start reloading instead 
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2011 14:05
|
|
|
jimmy boag posted:It'd be nice if the shotgun auto reloaded immediately after you've fired the last cartridge, rather than waiting until you go to fire again. I dunno how many times I've been shot because I've put myself into the line of fire and when I go to shoot I start reloading instead
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2011 14:26
|
|
|
jimmy boag posted:It'd be nice if the shotgun auto reloaded immediately after you've fired the last cartridge, rather than waiting until you go to fire again. I dunno how many times I've been shot because I've put myself into the line of fire and when I go to shoot I start reloading instead Just reload every time you have a moment where no monsters are around. Or hit reload every corner.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2011 14:34
|
|
|
I actually love the reloading mechanic: it makes battles very hectic and forces me to either switch through my whole arsenal during a big fight and utilize melee + the environment and especially if I picked up Berserk already.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2011 17:05
|
|
|
Vaos posted:Take note of which version of z/gzdoom/Skulltag you are using for demos, since they will not work on any other version. This also applies to saves. This reminds me, is anyone aware of a nice front end for playing back doom.exe/doom2.exe compatible demos in a compatibility-focussed source port like PRBOOM+ or Chocolate Doom? When I was running Windows XP I managed to properly associate demo .lmps with PRBOOM+ for that, but can't figure out how to do it properly in Windows 7. And ZDL which I normally use as a launcher doesn't seem to have any way to autostart a demo when loaded.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2011 18:48
|
|
|
I'm shocked at no mention of TFC (Team Fortress Classic)! This is a drat fun classic, although its not as pure as QWTF, its still drat fun! Hell if anyone has been wanting to play it again i got a server up recently for it, and yes it's bot free. ip: kotbf.clanservers.com 14 player slots maps: well, hunted, cz2, warpath, dustbowl, crossover2, and of course 2fort. WastelandTraveler fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Jul 23, 2011 |
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2011 19:15
|
|
|
Dominic White posted:Seriously, this is one of the main reasons I love the mod. Every weapon actually has a use. The chaingun no longer is completely obsoleted by the plasma gun, the single-barrel shotgun has mid-range combat use, and the pistol is replaced by the new sniper weapon, instead of just using 2-shot bursts with the chaingun. ehh, the chaingun was a rapid fire hitscan sniper rifle if you tapped the trigger, it was perfect for taking down things like PEs, cacos, commandos, and arachs at long range, unlike the plasma gun (since it was projectile based). and the single shotgun did have a good niche in Doom II as a midrange hitscanner/imp killer, it took down packs of low-tier enemies much faster than the SSG (which left you vulnerable to unavoidable hitscan attacks while you reloaded, and wasted ammo since most hitscanners/imps died in one shell anyway)
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2011 19:20
|
|
|
WastelandTraveler posted:I'm shocked at no mention of TFC (Team Fortress Classic)! This is a drat fun classic, although its not as pure as QWTF, its still drat fun! Hell if anyone has been wanting to play it again i got a server up recently for it, and yes it's bot free. The HL1 TFC maps are way better than TF2's. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2011 19:31
|
|
|
2fort sucks in any format.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2011 19:33
|
|
|
Fag Boy Jim posted:ehh, the chaingun was a rapid fire hitscan sniper rifle if you tapped the trigger That's what I just said - it's just that they split that ability off to give to the pistol (which had no use whatsoever) while the chaingun became a little harder to use but more powerful.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2011 19:40
|
|
|
i was kinda commenting on the whole "plasma rifle obsoletes the chaingun" thing which I don't really find to be true at all
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2011 19:42
|
|
|
Dominic White posted:
Before you even said anything I went through all the different stuff and decided that I would need GZdoom, skulltag, AND doomsday. So, I spent like three hours making it all work. GZdoom does seem a lot nicer with the features, and of course I played some skulltag online, which is REALLY brings me back. I'm keeping Doomsday for now, because of the interesting models they have. I still don't know whether I like sprites better or not. 1.5.6 is the latest GZdoom, yes? Do I actually need what you linked? I'm only using skulltag for online purposes. I also had to get loving Quake 2 to run in widescreen, which was a huge pain in the rear end. R1Q2 didn't help me at all. I ended up getting EGL quake which actually works perfectly in custom resolution, and is still able to run on the tastyspleen servers. Also, strife is still great. Make sure you don't just run the WAD, though, or you won't get the fantastic voice acting.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2011 21:35
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 05:05 |
|
|
Fag Boy Jim posted:ehh, the chaingun was a rapid fire hitscan sniper rifle if you tapped the trigger, it was perfect for taking down things like PEs, cacos, commandos, and arachs at long range, unlike the plasma gun (since it was projectile based). Yeah, in vanilla Doom 2 I find myself pulling out the Shotgun and Chaingun quite often even after I have the Super Shotgun and Plasma Gun for exactly the reasons you mentioned. I feel as if the pistol is the only obsoleted weapon (fists too, if you're on a level without a berserk pack.)
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2011 21:53
|
|
