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Supreme Allah posted:If Jaqen is so good, why was he captured in the first place. Magic has been getting stronger ever since the dragons were born. It's not clear whether the dragons or the comet or something else are the cause, but that doesn't matter yet (it will matter a lot if people start to try to kill the dragons as a way to kill the magic). What matters is that Jaquen probably couldn't do the transformation stuff as well in the days when he was captured as he could when he met Arya.
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Jul 24, 2011 11:26
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The fact that the wights/Others' return preceded the dragons awakening (assuming that the Others are in some sense magical), and that Dany was able to hatch the eggs at all makes it fairly clear that magic allowed the dragons to hatch, rather than dragons bringing magic back, in my mind. Magic has obviously only been dormant, rather than dead, of course. I am curious for more details on the demons often mentioned.
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Jul 24, 2011 12:55
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It surely was dormant, not dead (Bloodraven could use it the last 100 years after all), but the dragons seem to amplify it, at least judging by the comments regarding the Undying and Red Priests.
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Jul 24, 2011 14:13
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Decius posted:It surely was dormant, not dead (Bloodraven could use it the last 100 years after all), but the dragons seem to amplify it, at least judging by the comments regarding the Undying and Red Priests. I'll have to reread the House of the Undying part. To be honest, I skip Dany chapters on rereads because I find her kind of irritating and it's all so removed from Westeros.
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Jul 24, 2011 14:49
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When they said Arya would get a new face I didn't think she would literally get her face cut off and have another glued on. When does Nicolas Cage arrive on the scene?
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Jul 24, 2011 14:51
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Pwnstar posted:When they said Arya would get a new face I didn't think she would literally get her face cut off and have another glued on. When does Nicolas Cage arrive on the scene? I hadn't the impression her old face was cut off, I thought her original face was cut open at the forehead and the new face put over her old one. The cutting open part could be Blood Magic. She still could feel her own features under the new ones (her own cheek instead of the caved in one, her own teeth instead of the broken ones).
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Jul 24, 2011 15:13
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I am 99% sure that they took Arya face off. Through some magic of some kind.
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Jul 24, 2011 15:15
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No, the description of the process definitely sounded that way, but then he made a point of saying that her face still felt like her face to her. Seems like pretty clear proof that her face wasn't actually physically removed and it was, on some level, an illusion. Plus, they mention that after more training, she can change faces at will like Jaaqen.
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Jul 24, 2011 15:17
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Ecco the Dolphin posted:No, the description of the process definitely sounded that way, but then he made a point of saying that her face still felt like her face to her. Seems like pretty clear proof that her face wasn't actually physically removed and it was, on some level, an illusion. Plus, they mention that after more training, she can change faces at will like Jaaqen. Yeah they way the process was described definitely made it sound like the new face was just put on top of her regular one and blood was used to 'meld' them or something. I think I commented in here before that when that scene first started, I too got the impression that they were going to John Travolta/Nicholas Cage her rear end. But the way it ended up playing out was different.
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Jul 24, 2011 15:57
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I think a lot of people (including me) think Tyrion's chapters were quite annoying in that they went nowhere and seemed unnecessarily complicated/had Penny in them. But thinking about it I was struck by the similarity to Arya's chapters in aSoS. She changed hands repeatedly while trying to get somewhere else (and was also captured by someone she thought was taking her to Cersei). And Arya's chapters were well received right? I certianly liked them
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Jul 24, 2011 16:37
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I hated every Arya chapter between KL and her capture by the Hound. But I liked almost everything of Tyrion's ADWD stuff.
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Jul 24, 2011 16:50
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Iggles posted:I think a lot of people (including me) think Tyrion's chapters were quite annoying in that they went nowhere and seemed unnecessarily complicated/had Penny in them. But thinking about it I was struck by the similarity to Arya's chapters in aSoS. She changed hands repeatedly while trying to get somewhere else (and was also captured by someone she thought was taking her to Cersei). And Arya's chapters were well received right? I certianly liked them I think that part of it is because of the different factors involved, though. ADwD comes on the heels of nothing much happening in AFFC as well, and there's a clear goal for Tyrion to be heading towards. Arya didn't have a clear goal after getting captured the first time, so there was genuine suspense about what was going to happen to her. Meanwhile, we want Tyrion to see some fuckin' dragons for once, although I liked some of his chapters.
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Jul 24, 2011 17:12
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Iggles posted:I think a lot of people (including me) think Tyrion's chapters were quite annoying in that they went nowhere and seemed unnecessarily complicated/had Penny in them. But thinking about it I was struck by the similarity to Arya's chapters in aSoS. She changed hands repeatedly while trying to get somewhere else (and was also captured by someone she thought was taking her to Cersei). And Arya's chapters were well received right? I certianly liked them The thing is, Arya had interesting people around her, like The Hound, Thoros and Dondarrion. All Tyrion had was stupid Penny and whining, moping Jorah.
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Jul 24, 2011 17:17
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VaultAggie posted:The thing is, Arya had interesting people around her, like The Hound, Thoros and Dondarrion. All Tyrion had was stupid Penny and whining, moping Jorah. On top of that, Arya is a little girl and it's easier to accept her being 'carried along' by the circumstances than Tyrion. Especially with how many times we've seen Tyrion manage to talk his way out of a bad situation, his lack of agency in ADWD fell flat for me.
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Jul 24, 2011 17:55
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Simon Draskovic posted:On top of that, Arya is a little girl and it's easier to accept her being 'carried along' by the circumstances than Tyrion. Especially with how many times we've seen Tyrion manage to talk his way out of a bad situation, his lack of agency in ADWD fell flat for me. Well, he didn't have any agency left, that's the point of his journey for me. He isn't the powerful Lord's son, the rich guy, the dwarf who commands respect because of his class any more. He was suffered and had to rely on gifts and the goodwill of others culminating in him becoming a slave. He was brought down on one level with Penny in this regard. Unlike her he didn't accept his new station in life as easily however. He still was able to have some influence and at the end managed to gain some agency and some power again (mostly by promising money and power to others). I didn't particularly like his storyline, and I found it too long and meandering, but it had its moments and (for me at least) meaning.
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Jul 24, 2011 18:18
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Personally I disliked the Arya chapters, every time she ran away and got recaptured by someone else my eyes rolled and just thought 'Again?'
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Jul 24, 2011 18:33
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Forgive her for she is just a young girl and knows little in the ways of evading capture.
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Jul 24, 2011 19:03
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Simon Draskovic posted:On top of that, Arya is a little girl and it's easier to accept her being 'carried along' by the circumstances than Tyrion. Especially with how many times we've seen Tyrion manage to talk his way out of a bad situation, his lack of agency in ADWD fell flat for me. He's not really the second son of a powerful and influential house any more. He's a dwarf. That's all he is now. That's the point.
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Jul 24, 2011 19:14
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I'm very curious as to how he's planning on paying all of that gold to the company. 100 thousand golden dragons? Yowza.
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Jul 24, 2011 19:40
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Jaqen- it seems like there are two options, either it's poor plotting that he was in prison in the first place, or he was there deliberately for some reason. There could be any number of reasons for him to be there deliberately, right? EC posted:I'm very curious as to how he's planning on paying all of that gold to the company. 100 thousand golden dragons? Yowza. Didn't he basically say "welp either we win and I get Casterly Rock and all the gold in it, or we lose and I die and don't have to pay them poo poo?" showbiz_liz fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Jul 24, 2011 |
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Jul 24, 2011 19:44
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EC posted:I'm very curious as to how he's planning on paying all of that gold to the company. 100 thousand golden dragons? Yowza. The Lannisters have enough cash that Kevan could pay off all the kingdom's debts without bankrupting himself. It's likely that he could pay all that without stretching Lannister funds if he did manage to win control of Casterly Rock (and potentially draw upon royal funds as well). But as he says, he's likely to die before they can reasonably expect to get paid anyways.
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Jul 24, 2011 19:46
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EC posted:I'm very curious as to how he's planning on paying all of that gold to the company. 100 thousand golden dragons? Yowza. It's probably closer to 150k Golden Dragons with all the other money he's paying out. Still shouldn't be that much to him if he gets Casterly Rock, I mean the crown is like 3 million in debt to the Lannisters already. If they can lend out 3 million dragons, I can't imagine 150k is a lot to them.
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Jul 24, 2011 20:15
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It seems like his claim would be pretty tentative, what with the whole being wanted for kin(g)slaying thing. I mean, I guess since Westerosians never thought ahead enough to make laws prohibiting evil boy-kings it makes a kind of sense that Tyrion could show up to Casterly Rock and be like "hey I murdered everyone who stood in my way and now all the gold is mine" and all the house guards and stewards and such just go "welp our hands our tied, come this way little buddy." Otherwise you're just looking at a full on sacking and looting of Casterly Rock and somehow I don't think Tyrion needs to give his permission for that. I'm probably over-thinking this. Westeros is stupid.
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Jul 24, 2011 20:20
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Had to share:
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Jul 24, 2011 20:42
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Sarkozymandias posted:It seems like his claim would be pretty tentative, what with the whole being wanted for kin(g)slaying thing. I mean, I guess since Westerosians never thought ahead enough to make laws prohibiting evil boy-kings it makes a kind of sense that Tyrion could show up to Casterly Rock and be like "hey I murdered everyone who stood in my way and now all the gold is mine" and all the house guards and stewards and such just go "welp our hands our tied, come this way little buddy." Aside from potentially losing his claim for kinslaying and kingslaying, Tyrion is the heir to Casterly Rock. That counts for something. What counts for more is he knows Casterly Rock backwards and forwards. Presumably his knowledge of the drains is important since it comes up multiple times. There are 514 Second Sons. You probably can't lay siege to the castle with that number, but if you sneak them inside and catch the garrison off guard, that's probably enough to murder everyone who doesn't decide that Tyrion's claim to the castle isn't so bad after all.
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Jul 24, 2011 20:45
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Jesus Christ this book's ending was disappointing. Just as things are starting to ramp up, welp sorry dudes gotta wait another 6 years for any closure. We've got Stannis who may or may not be dead, Jon who may or may not be dead, Dany who's just been located, Tyrion who's started cooking up some scheme, and those are just a few amongst the many plot threads which he couldn't be bothered to tie up. Goddammit George. 
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Jul 24, 2011 20:52
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MaximumBob posted:Presumably his knowledge of the drains is important since it comes up multiple times. There are 514 Second Sons. You probably can't lay siege to the castle with that number, but if you sneak them inside and catch the garrison off guard, that's probably enough to murder everyone who doesn't decide that Tyrion's claim to the castle isn't so bad after all. Yeah, GRRM really started hitting us over the head with this one.
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Jul 24, 2011 21:02
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Effectronica posted:The Lannisters have enough cash that Kevan could pay off all the kingdom's debts without bankrupting himself. It's likely that he could pay all that without stretching Lannister funds if he did manage to win control of Casterly Rock (and potentially draw upon royal funds as well). But as he says, he's likely to die before they can reasonably expect to get paid anyways. Well, remember that much of the kingdom's debt is owed to the Lannisters, so he doesn't have to actually pay it; he can just write it off his books at home.
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Jul 24, 2011 21:15
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PeterWeller posted:Well, remember that much of the kingdom's debt is owed to the Lannisters, so he doesn't have to actually pay it; he can just write it off his books at home. Half of the kingdom's debt before the war was owed to the Lannisters. That still left at least three million gold owed to other sources. Who knows how much further in debt the war drove the kingdom.
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Jul 24, 2011 21:18
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Neurosis posted:The fact that the wights/Others' return preceded the dragons awakening (assuming that the Others are in some sense magical), and that Dany was able to hatch the eggs at all makes it fairly clear that magic allowed the dragons to hatch, rather than dragons bringing magic back, in my mind. Magic has obviously only been dormant, rather than dead, of course. I am curious for more details on the demons often mentioned. But in A Feast for Crows that one wizard Maester tells Sam that the Targ dragons had been weakened and eventually killed by the Maesters as a group, in order to get rid of Magic.
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Jul 24, 2011 21:28
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It didn't work, obviously, or the Faceless Men wouldn't be able to do their thing. There must have been some magic at work among the Faceless Men, Red Priests, Undying, etc., before the dragons hatched and it started back. Just because the Maesters think it works that way doesn't mean it does.
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Jul 24, 2011 21:54
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It worked well enough that the fire priests and the pyromancers and the Maesters themselves had no magic whatsoever, though. Even the Faceless Men have presumably been much reduced until recently, otherwise Jaqen would never have been caught.
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Jul 24, 2011 22:03
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Unless Jacqen wanted to be caught. We never find out what he was doing in King's Landing to begin with.
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Jul 24, 2011 22:20
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I've recently finished ADWD and still suspect there could be a final twist where R'hllor turns out to be the evil god what with all this stuff about shadows and necromancy and raising the dead and burning. You have Arya and Bran who are allied with gods who may or may not be 'The Other' and they seem pretty nice and chilled and may well turn out to be the good guys. (I don't do much asofai reading online so this is probably already a done-to-death theory but I cant remember anything in ADWD which solidly disproves it). Also steaking a minor bet that, because Winterfell hasn't suffered enough, the hot springs underneath it turn out to be linked to a volcano and it goes boom Valyria style.
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Jul 24, 2011 22:34
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PeterWeller posted:Unless Jacqen wanted to be caught. We never find out what he was doing in King's Landing to begin with. Hiding from Meryn Trant. 
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Jul 25, 2011 00:19
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TheFatController posted:I've recently finished ADWD and still suspect there could be a final twist where R'hllor turns out to be the evil god what with all this stuff about shadows and necromancy and raising the dead and burning. You have Arya and Bran who are allied with gods who may or may not be 'The Other' and they seem pretty nice and chilled and may well turn out to be the good guys. (I don't do much asofai reading online so this is probably already a done-to-death theory but I cant remember anything in ADWD which solidly disproves it). I really like the idea of R'hllor being behind the Others somehow, but I don't think that's the case. The Others and whatever they're associated with do seem to be trapped on the other side of the Wall, and Melisandre doesn't seem to be trying to bring the wall down. If the bits about magic being built into the wall to hold the Others out are true, after all, the only reason to have an actual Night's Watch on it is to maintain the wall itself and repel wights, presumably. Given the tone of the series it's more likely that even R'hllor even exists he/she/it is just a dick for the sake of it.
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Jul 25, 2011 00:45
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Ambiguatron posted:I really like the idea of R'hllor being behind the Others somehow, but I don't think that's the case. The Others and whatever they're associated with do seem to be trapped on the other side of the Wall, and Melisandre doesn't seem to be trying to bring the wall down. If the bits about magic being built into the wall to hold the Others out are true, after all, the only reason to have an actual Night's Watch on it is to maintain the wall itself and repel wights, presumably. In addition, Melisandre claims that her magic is enhanced at the wall, and she can summon great shadows to fight for her
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Jul 25, 2011 01:08
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Ambiguatron posted:It didn't work, obviously, or the Faceless Men wouldn't be able to do their thing. There must have been some magic at work among the Faceless Men, Red Priests, Undying, etc., before the dragons hatched and it started back. Just because the Maesters think it works that way doesn't mean it does. Didn't somebody mention in one of the books that there might still be dragons off in Asshai (or whatever the far mysterious east is called.) Maybe it's a proximity thing. Hardly any magic in Westeros because the only other dragons are on the opposite side of the world, but we know the warlocks and various other magic never stopped in the lands that are closer to that region. I hope that made sense, there is just way to much to keep track of.
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Jul 25, 2011 01:34
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Finished the book yesterday. Literally gently caress Dany off please. She annoys me to no end. Jon Snow is totally gonna turn into a smoking reincarnation of the red god or something. Too much poo poo happening in Slavers Bay. I was glad when Aegon went back to Westeros. I hope everyone follows soon. I think there are too many threads open now to finish everything in two books. ADWD was almost 1000 pages in hardcover and yet there were about 2-3 Cersei chapters and Arya chapters. Not much Bran either and still no Rickon. Glad they killed off Quentyn Martell. He was kind of pointless with Aegon there as well.
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Jul 25, 2011 02:02
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The Aberrant posted:Jesus Christ this book's ending was disappointing. Just as things are starting to ramp up, welp sorry dudes gotta wait another 6 years for any closure. We've got Stannis who may or may not be dead, Jon who may or may not be dead, Dany who's just been located, Tyrion who's started cooking up some scheme, and those are just a few amongst the many plot threads which he couldn't be bothered to tie up. He's a bad writer and incapable of building dramatic tension other than "IS YOUR FAVOURITE CHARACTER DEAD? BUY MY NEXT BOOK AND FIND OUT!" if you don't like it at this point pull the cord on the series bro
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Jul 25, 2011 02:56
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