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Throatwarbler posted:The GM diesel is a VM Motori, Fiat/Chrysler uses them in a lot of their cars too. Ford's diesels are a joint venture and shared with PSA Peugeot Citroen. Pretty sure they are all fine? $30k? Really? I think that's a bit high. Look, as an example, at the Holden Cruze. MSRP for a gas one is $21k-30k AUS dollars. MSRP for the diesel is $28-30 Obviously, there's huge variations in pricing schemes due to taxes, trim differences, etc., but since the US Cruze ranges from about $16.5-23k, even with the costs of an imported engine, I doubt a diesel Cruze would sell for more than $25k. I mean, the Jetta TDI starts at $23k list, and even with the current VW decontenting push, I seriously doubt that a VW is going to be that much cheaper than an equivalent Chevrolet.
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Jul 23, 2011 21:51
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http://gencon.indy.com/articles/business-2/thread/hyundai-elantra-prevails-in-test-of-low-priced-high-mileage-cars Cruze transaction prices are at $21k and above the industry average. It's already the Cadillac of compact economy cars. There's a guy in the BFC thread who just bought a Cruze that MSRPed at close to $28k. If you rapidspec an LTZ on GM's website you are already at 22k, and for 2012 GM raised the MSRP on the Cruze even further (albeit they also made a few options standard). The Cruze currently tops out at 138hp, a 160hp diesel with much more torque will need a much more robust driveline and the diesel model will definitely be the range topper. The Jetta diesel starts at $22k despite being a much lower content vehicle in terms of interior quality and refinement than the Cruze, and with lower Mexican labor costs while the Cruze is built at Lordstown and GM's labor costs are $58/hour. That's why I'm saying that GM can't compete on price with Hyundai or even Mexican VWs, they must do what VW does in Europe - make the cars clearly better than the competition AND charge more for them. So far with the Cruze they've actually managed to pull it off. Throatwarbler fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Jul 23, 2011 |
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Jul 23, 2011 22:06
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Timmy Cruise posted:What? Did you mean more likely? I would think reliability and lack of spontaneous combustion would be linearly related. I've never heard of a TDI spontaneously combusting. If this came close to the TDI (engine wise at least) it would still be quite good. My parents' 2000 TDI has 480k kms and is running fine... Sorry, I typed it from my phone while on lunch. I figure there's not a small diesel engine on the planet more reliable than VW's. However, VW is known for electrical problems and fires. So my original statement meant the engine will be less reliable, but the car will probably not just up and catch on fire in your driveway. Stereotypes. I've been driving my brother in law's '10 TDI the last week as i'm trying to get some last bit of warranty repairs (I gently caress it, they fix it, hopefully) on my truck. I still can't get the shifting down right on it. I don't stall out on hills any more, the clutch is quite easy to learn. If I just sorta idle it forwards, I keep it lower than 1500 RPM up to 35MPH and hit the cruise control. Fine and all, but acceleration in that manner is pretty low. Whenever I try to accelerate more aggressively I end up somehow bucking the car on upshifts, not letting the engine RPMs drop enough. OR, if I accelerate semi-aggressively, about the same rate everyone else is doing, I press the accelerator, wait... wait... 1700 RPMZOOOOOOOOOMshift!
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Jul 23, 2011 23:20
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Skyssx posted:I press the accelerator, wait... wait... 1700 RPMZOOOOOOOOOMshift!
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Jul 24, 2011 00:01
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I don't know how the power bump is going affect things but as the Australia/NZ range stands right now there is no way I'd buy a diesel Cruze. The boosted petrol is just so much nicer to drive, especially with the manual. Edit: Although the diesel is only available with the retarded 6 speed auto here - a manual might go some way to fixing it. BTW on the base model the turbo petrol engine is a $2,000 option, the diesel $5,590 - not a massive premium as far as diesels go dissss fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Jul 24, 2011 |
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Jul 24, 2011 02:41
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From a european perspective all this talk about the Cruze commanding a premium is science-fiction. Down here it's a value car, supposedly slightly less well put together that the latest focus / golf but similar. It costs much less than a Jetta too, to the tune of 25%.
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Jul 24, 2011 09:09
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Spatule posted:From a european perspective all this talk about the Cruze commanding a premium is science-fiction. Down here it's a value car, supposedly slightly less well put together that the latest focus / golf but similar. Well you still have the Astra which is like a nicer version of the same thing so I guess that affects positioning. Its probably still cheaper in the States though given most of their cars are.
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Jul 24, 2011 09:18
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dissss posted:Well you still have the Astra which is like a nicer version of the same thing so I guess that affects positioning. The top of the line manual 5 door (LTZ 2.0 diesel 163hp) is 20599€, or slightly less than the price of the most basic Jetta available (1.2 TSI 105hp). Yes, VW prices are retarded, but hordes of morons still buy them. Depending on the exchange rate that's between 20 and 30k USD of course so the comparison is not easy.
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Jul 24, 2011 09:33
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I'm looking at GM Germany's website and the top of the line manual sedan Cruze is E22k. The Korean made European version is also sparsely equipped compared to the US version - I don't think leather is even an option, and it comes with the cheaper torsion bar rear suspension. The US version uses the same suspension as the Astra which IS similarly priced to the Golf. I'm not sure where the Jetta fits on VW's EU lineup anyway? AFAIK very few people actually buy it and it seems to be more expensive than the Golf, is it some kind of special luxury car? The US Jetta is completely different. Throatwarbler fucked around with this message at 10:43 on Jul 24, 2011 |
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Jul 24, 2011 10:41
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The suspension situation is pretty weird - in AU/NZ only the petrol turbo has the better rear end, the base 1.8 and the diesel still have the torsion bar. As far as the Jetta goes I don't think there is much emphasis on small sedans in Europe - hatches don't carry the same stigma they seem to in North America.
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Jul 24, 2011 11:27
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dissss posted:As far as the Jetta goes I don't think there is much emphasis on small sedans in Europe - hatches don't carry the same stigma they seem to in North America. I don't actually understand the appeal of a saloon version. For some ungodly reason the "I need to go somewhere" pool car at work is a Mondeo saloon, rather than the hatch. It doesn't look or drive any different, it just means you can't fit as much stuff in the back. There is a supposed argument about shell stiffness with a saloon, but really? We're not talking about performance vehicles and 10/10ths driving here. It doesn't help that most "it's meant to be a hatch, but we'll build a saloon too" designs are really ugly with that boot on the back. As for the rear torsion beam setup, there's nothing that bad about them. Might not be perfect, but as a cheap way of building a trailing arm system with an anti-roll bar function, it does the job. From a manufacturer's point of view, there are other things they could spend money on rather than proper IRS, and these are things that are more appealing to the average buyer.
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Jul 24, 2011 12:27
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InitialDave posted:As for the rear torsion beam setup, there's nothing that bad about them. Might not be perfect, but as a cheap way of building a trailing arm system with an anti-roll bar function, it does the job. From a manufacturer's point of view, there are other things they could spend money on rather than proper IRS, and these are things that are more appealing to the average buyer. It still doesn't make any sense to me that the Cruze is available with both, especially considering its a relatively cheap option in my market (and packaged with the better engine as a bonus). Surely it makes more sense to pick one design and stick with it.
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Jul 24, 2011 12:38
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InitialDave posted:I don't actually understand the appeal of a saloon version. For some ungodly reason the "I need to go somewhere" pool car at work is a Mondeo saloon, rather than the hatch. It doesn't look or drive any different, it just means you can't fit as much stuff in the back. There is a supposed argument about shell stiffness with a saloon, but really? We're not talking about performance vehicles and 10/10ths driving here. The Jetta TDI I previously mentioned is a sedan. I told my brother in law to buy the sportwagen version, but he refused to buy a station wagon. Instead, they play Tetris in the trunk and then fill a fabric car top carrier that covers the sunroof. There's just something in the water here in the U.S.
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Jul 24, 2011 13:34
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What's the pricing on the new US Focus? Isn't it going to be similar to that of the Cruze, since it's another one of the recent wave of "high content" small cars? Also, clearly the discerning US eurofan who the Saturn Astra was marketed to would only plump for the Diesel Cruze Hatch 
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Jul 24, 2011 14:54
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InitialDave posted:Yeah, perhaps it's a reflection on needing to gain back extra practicality when people generally buy smaller cars, but the "standard" car for people to buy here is something Focus- or Golf-sized with a hatch. If anything, the UK is the most pro-hatch country, more so than in Europe. I just checked : we don't even get the Mondeo saloon here, only hatch and "clipper".
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Jul 24, 2011 16:25
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Throatwarbler posted:I'm looking at GM Germany's website and the top of the line manual sedan Cruze is E22k. Indeed, I was looking at the hatch and manual. Why is the hatch 100€ cheaper ? It looks like a more angular Astra. Does it also have the less nice suspension as the Cruze sedan ?
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Jul 24, 2011 16:28
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Cream_Filling posted:What's the pricing on the new US Focus? Isn't it going to be similar to that of the Cruze, since it's another one of the recent wave of "high content" small cars? The base model Focus will be priced similarly to the base Cruze, with a larger more powerful engine but only a 5 speed manual. The Focus sedan is also a bit smaller. Comparing loaded trims the Focus will be substantially cheaper than the Cruze, with substantially more content like a more powerful engine, DSG, dual zone AC and real IRS (all Focuses have that of course). The Astra is coming in 2012 as a Buick sedan, maybe a hatch too - if the diesel Cruze is coming anything is possible. quote:Indeed, I was looking at the hatch and manual. Why is the hatch 100€ cheaper ? It looks like a more angular Astra. Does it also have the less nice suspension as the Cruze sedan ? I think all the Korean made ones have the cheaper suspension. The Holden and the Chinese market have both depending on trim level. quote:It still doesn't make any sense to me that the Cruze is available with both, especially considering its a relatively cheap option in my market (and packaged with the better engine as a bonus). Surely it makes more sense to pick one design and stick with it. The cost to add a Watts linkage isn't very much for the manufacturer, and if you don't care about the 10/10th driving, the simpler suspension is lighter and less maintenance intensive. The reviews I've read comparing the Watts linkage back to back with IRS cars generally are quite positive, so I think it's a pretty good way to go about it.
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Jul 24, 2011 17:57
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I refuse to get excited over an Astra diesel. Police in UK have had them for a while and they are positively uninteresting.
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Jul 24, 2011 19:21
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Yeah the idea of you guys getting excited about a diesel Astra is hilarious.
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Jul 24, 2011 19:39
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Cakefool posted:Yeah the idea of you guys getting excited about a diesel Astra is hilarious. No one in this thread is seriously suggesting that? I doubt the diesel Astra is coming anyway, the version that's been confirmed will have the 177hp DI 2.4l petrol and the 220-270hp turbo 2.0l is expected to follow.
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Jul 24, 2011 19:43
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Throatwarbler posted:The cost to add a Watts linkage isn't very much for the manufacturer, and if you don't care about the 10/10th driving, the simpler suspension is lighter and less maintenance intensive. The reviews I've read comparing the Watts linkage back to back with IRS cars generally are quite positive, so I think it's a pretty good way to go about it.
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Jul 24, 2011 19:48
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InitialDave posted:Yeah, by putting a Watts linkage into the mix, they can theoretically lighten up the beam, as it's not required to do much more than its anti-roll function. The only downside I can see is that it you need to make sure you've got room for it - a car without much overhang at the back might have the spare wheel well between the rear wheels, right where the linkage is meant to go. Space is no issue at all really.   With the Watt's link controlling the lateral loads, the torsion spring is lightened and the attachment bushings all have more compliance to improve ride quality.
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Jul 24, 2011 20:15
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Throatwarbler posted:Space is no issue at all really.
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Jul 25, 2011 00:00
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Throatwarbler posted:No one in this thread is seriously suggesting that? I doubt the diesel Astra is coming anyway, the version that's been confirmed will have the 177hp DI 2.4l petrol and the 220-270hp turbo 2.0l is expected to follow. Sorry, that may have come across wrong. It's just that a diesel Astra is almost the epitome of a dull car over here. Ever watched Hot Fuzz? The car chase at the end is between 2 Astra Diesels & Simon Pegg described it as the least exciting car chase to film ever. Admittedly they are previous generation.
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Jul 25, 2011 11:11
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Cakefool posted:Sorry, that may have come across wrong. It's just that a diesel Astra is almost the epitome of a dull car over here. Ever watched Hot Fuzz? The car chase at the end is between 2 Astra Diesels & Simon Pegg described it as the least exciting car chase to film ever. Admittedly they are previous generation. I'm not saying that it's exciting because _I_ want one. I think this is great news because I want to see diesels become more common in the US so that something I might actually want is available in a diesel some day. For example, I'd love to have a diesel Rover. It would fit what I do with it perfectly. But "Americans hate diesel", so Rover didn't even bother importing them with that motor choice.
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Jul 25, 2011 15:32
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I don't think I could buy a diesel car until diesel fuel becomes more widely available. I can't even think of where the closest diesel carrying station is in relation to my house or work.
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Jul 25, 2011 16:27
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In the area surrounding Cleveland, every other station carries Diesel.
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Jul 25, 2011 16:33
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14 INCH DICK TURBO posted:We don't have a derailAILED thread in ai so ill ask here, I saw an old van like this way out in the backroads of california but it didn't have an engine cab on the front, just the slope down into the windows and very slab fronted. Ideas what it could have been? Never seen anything like it since. International Harvester? 
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Jul 25, 2011 16:34
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Skyssx posted:In the area surrounding Cleveland, every other station carries Diesel. It's not really that way in Pittsburgh. I would have to drive like 15 minutes out of my way to hit a station that has diesel.
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Jul 25, 2011 17:19
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dissss posted:The suspension situation is pretty weird - in AU/NZ only the petrol turbo has the better rear end, the base 1.8 and the diesel still have the torsion bar. Cars that carry a stigma in North America: Diesels, Hatchbacks, Wagons, and Minivans, anything else that might possibly provide some level of utility. Status symbols in North America: Giant fuckoff SUV's and raised pickup trucks as commuter vehicles. I normally roll my eyes very hard when I hear idiots rattle on about how advance Europe is over various things, but gently caress the American car market.
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Jul 25, 2011 17:36
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bull3964 posted:It's not really that way in Pittsburgh. I would have to drive like 15 minutes out of my way to hit a station that has diesel. Uh, what part of Pittsburgh are you in? Almost every station I pass except some of the smaller indies has diesel.
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Jul 25, 2011 18:04
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BeastOfExmoor posted:Cars that carry a stigma in North America: Diesels, Hatchbacks, Wagons, and Minivans, anything else that might possibly provide some level of utility. Canada has a fair amount of hatchbacks and stuff so I don't think the American car market is all poo poo.
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Jul 25, 2011 19:11
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Coredump posted:Canada has a fair amount of hatchbacks and stuff so I don't think the American car market is all poo poo. No, Canada is much worse. Per capital Canada buys twice as many full size pickups as the US. Literally every other vehicle in my neighbourhood is a Ford Superduty or Ram 3500. There are no hatchbacks or any other cars sold here that are not sold in the US, except maybe the MB B-class but no one buys those in any country. Canadians buy many more Mazdas than Americans and much fewer Nissans. In the US Nissan is usually # 4 or 5, and the third largest Japanese make while Mazda is a minor bit player, in Canada it's reversed.
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Jul 25, 2011 19:35
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Throatwarbler posted:No, Canada is much worse. Per capital Canada buys twice as many full size pickups as the US. Literally every other vehicle in my neighbourhood is a Ford Superduty or Ram 3500. There are no hatchbacks or any other cars sold here that are not sold in the US, except maybe the MB B-class but no one buys those in any country. The Focus Wagon was a Canadian exclusive for the later part of its existence. With good reason too - there's still swarms of them on the road, at least in Southern Ontario. I've read things saying that the next generation wagon will also be sold in Canada but not in the States. The Mazda discrepancy is definitely huge though, it feels like every other econobox you see on the street is a Mazda 3.
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Jul 25, 2011 20:05
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Throatwarbler posted:No, Canada is much worse. Per capital Canada buys twice as many full size pickups as the US. Literally every other vehicle in my neighbourhood is a Ford Superduty or Ram 3500. There are no hatchbacks or any other cars sold here that are not sold in the US, except maybe the MB B-class but no one buys those in any country. Where do you live? I'm between Hamilton and Toronto and there are more Honda Civics and Mazda 3 hatchbacks than anything else on the road, even pickups. Focuses and VW hatchbacks/wagons seem to be increasing in numbers around here.
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Jul 25, 2011 20:08
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bull3964 posted:It's not really that way in Pittsburgh. I would have to drive like 15 minutes out of my way to hit a station that has diesel. Finding this weird is what I get for growing up in a rural area; every gas station has a diesel pump or four in southern Illinois.
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Jul 25, 2011 20:30
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Also diesel is often more expensive than gas in the US. Honestly, the major reason everyone drives a diesel in Europe is because of tax incentives to do so. If we were forced to drive them in the US, I would say the majority of people here (particularly enthusiasts who don't drive trucks) would hate them and long for affordable petrol instead. Hating on wagons and hatches, on the other hand, is a legitimate example of Americans being dumb babies due to cultural garbage about mommy-wagons and cheap econobox hatches. Like it or not, people are rarely rational even when it comes to big-ticket economic decisions like buying a car, and it takes decades for some of this cultural stuff to change - I anticipate hearing "diesels are loud and smelly" and "Toyota is the most reliable car ever" all the way until my old age, when my hearing will finally give up after years of abuse from power tools and firearms. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Jul 25, 2011 |
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Jul 25, 2011 20:46
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Cream_Filling posted:Also diesel is often more expensive than gas in the US. Well, it doesn't help that for decades, the American automakers promoted the automobile as this escape from reality and marketed big muscle cars as a true red-blooded American right. Then you get the oil shocks, the decline of the muscle car and the rise of econoboxes and wagons/minivans. People had to adapt to the reality but it doesn't help that most economy cars of the late 70s and early 80s were poo poo. Wagons/Minivans were bought in droves and for the right reasons! Capacity, utility, and versatility. They were such sellers that they did become synonymous with soccer moms and moving your family unit around on road trips. And again, it didn't help that they were so unlike those cars the baby boomers grew up with (big engines, performance). It was nearly inevitable that there was this eventual rejection.
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Jul 25, 2011 21:03
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Cream_Filling posted:
No, it's because despite being more expensive per liter, the fuel economy gains outweigh the 10p+/l additional expense. You're right though, if you're particularly enthusiastic about driving, commuter diesels might as well be minivans. I've driven various ones, and the best thing I could say about the best one (in an automatic 116d M-Sport) is "you almost don't notice this is a diesel!". And from anecdotal evidence, GM diesels come second place to VW diesels in the amount of cancerous soot they spew out at every depression of the rattle pedal.
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Jul 25, 2011 23:32
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In the US, diesel costs about 15-20 cents a gallon more, which is I would say a non-trivial amount, considering the premium you have to pay on top of that for the diesel car itself. Keep in mind, California emissions standards are stricter than in Europe, so the emissions equipment also costs more. http://www.eia.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp The reason for the wagon/hatch hate in the US is basically the same reason as many other problems: boomers. loving boomers. All of their parents drove station wagons, so now, desperate to not turn into their parents, they hate wagons with a passion. Minivans, on the other hand, arguably fell out of fashion at least partially because they started getting impracticably huge and expensive. Base MSRP on a Honda Odyssey is loving $28k. That is insane. When a "mini" van is actually similar in size to a full-size work van, it's not too mini anymore, either. I bet there's still a market out there for a minivan the size of the original Caravan. See also the strong sales of the Scion xB (before they made it bigger, too).
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Jul 26, 2011 00:16
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