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It's just a little different when you're actually experiencing it, I guess. Two of the externs I work with still think there are $100k+ jobs available for most of us right after graduation, so there are much deeper levels of delusion out there.  I'm lucky that my husband takes care of us and I won't have any debt, but I don't really want to have two useless, expensive degrees. I actually do want to be a lawyer. Sometimes I wish I was science-y so I could have been a doctor like every single other person in my family. I am so jealous of their job security.
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Jul 26, 2011 04:49
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Linguica posted:Good luck to our crop of bar takers this summer. I'm glad to not be among you this time ~~ Thanks! Though try as I might, I'm fully confident that I'm going to blow any questions on secured transactions, constitutional law, family law, negotiable instruments, real estate...
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Jul 26, 2011 05:10
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Neko Sou posted:Anyway, should I take it off, or just edit the religious part out? I don't like the idea of doing this but I don't want to hurt my chances for a job either. At a job-search-help event a few months back, one older student mentioned how she put all of her religious involvement on her resume (she hid what church but I'm 99% certain she meant Jewish groups), and one time a lawyer told her something along the lines of her killing her chances at that firm by putting that info in. The recruiter hosting the event - as well as the panel - were all horrified and said that it's not true (and would be completely unethical/illegal), but common sense implies that it's going to be an issue. Unless it's really incredibly important to your identity, and you want to filter out the overt racists, consider whitewashing the details into vague "community involvement" stuff. Get your foot in the door and you can divulge details at interviews, at a stage where they can see you're not a brown bogeyman.
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Jul 26, 2011 05:15
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CmdrSmirnoff posted:At a job-search-help event a few months back, one older student mentioned how she put all of her religious involvement on her resume (she hid what church but I'm 99% certain she meant Jewish groups), and one time a lawyer told her something along the lines of her killing her chances at that firm by putting that info in. The recruiter hosting the event - as well as the panel - were all horrified and said that it's not true (and would be completely unethical/illegal), but common sense implies that it's going to be an issue. Out of curiosity, does anyone know how much this applies to political work? I would guess it would be more firm by firm, interviewer by interviewer, and how they fall on the political spectrum. It isn't a major part of my identity but political work is a major part of my resume, to be certain.
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Jul 26, 2011 05:40
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Neko Sou posted:I have kind of a weird question. I have something on my resume that says I was a delegate to a young Muslims leadership thing in DC. I haven't had a lot of legal stuff until just this summer and my pending Legal Aid externship in the fall, so I feel like I need to keep it on. My husband thinks having something that says I'm Muslim is a bad idea since I'm in Ohio and there are definitely quite a few racists in the area. I personally think if people are racist and wouldn't want to work with me because of that then I don't want that job, since it'd make things pretty awkward. My mentor (5th year associate at a local biglaw firm) agrees with me. But an actual Arab attorney I met with (he's Christian) said that it would be a big problem and he goes out of his way to put that he's a member of such-and-such church. My name is very Arabic, so regardless of whether or not my religion is displayed somewhere on my resume I feel like racists would know something was up. I'm sort of hoping someone will view it as a kind of diversity as well, but I don't know how well that will work. To be honest, I feel like it's a big part of who I am, and talking about wanting to help the community tends to give me something to talk about at our networking events. People tend to respond to it pretty well. As someone with a really ethnic name (and similar affiliation stuff), I've been advised to leave it on because anyone looking not to hire someone of X group is going to spot your name and find a reason not to hire you. Basically, anyone who it will impact your chances with will take it positively, and those who would take it negatively are already looking at your name and getting sour. Just what I've been told, though. MEET ME BY DUCKS posted:Out of curiosity, does anyone know how much this applies to political work? I would guess it would be more firm by firm, interviewer by interviewer, and how they fall on the political spectrum. It isn't a major part of my identity but political work is a major part of my resume, to be certain. This, on the other hand, I've been told to edit (or at least temper). Not mentioning party affiliations is sort of a big one (and that includes employers - no need to mention that the Congressional campaign you worked for was Democratic or Republican). The rule of thumb is that the firms take clients from both sides of the aisle, so they're not so much looking for ideological concurrence so much as they want to be sure you can shut the gently caress up about it and do the job without annoying the client. Obviously this is more firm-oriented, because a lot of public interest groups tend to skew one way or the other (well, one way at least). The Warszawa fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Jul 26, 2011 |
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Jul 26, 2011 05:40
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The Warszawa posted:As someone with a really ethnic name (and similar affiliation stuff), I've been advised to leave it on because anyone looking not to hire someone of X group is going to spot your name and find a reason not to hire you. Basically, anyone who it will impact your chances with will take it positively, and those who would take it negatively are already looking at your name and getting sour. Well that's great. They can probably guess which presidential campaign it's referring to, and it also would eliminate the ability to include more prestigious roles for say, Speaker of the House or Senate Majority Leader. Looks like my resume is going to be as difficult and messy as I expected. I don't even know how one would list some of those positions without indicating the individual one worked for, or at least doing so without it looking very weird.
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Jul 26, 2011 05:49
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MEET ME BY DUCKS posted:Well that's great. They can probably guess which presidential campaign it's referring to, and it also would eliminate the ability to include more prestigious roles for say, Speaker of the House or Senate Majority Leader. Looks like my resume is going to be as difficult and messy as I expected. I don't even know how one would list some of those positions without indicating the individual one worked for, or at least doing so without it looking very weird. Whatever, just list them. Edit: Warszawa, think about a name change. My lawyer grandpa was R. Greenberg before he circumcised his last name. MoFauxHawk fucked around with this message at 05:56 on Jul 26, 2011 |
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Jul 26, 2011 05:51
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MoFauxHawk posted:Whatever, just list them. I'm mostly just trying to wrap my head around what a political-based yet party-less resume would even look like. It seems akin to listing that one did patent litigation from 2006-2008 in San Francisco but not listing a firm, you just have to take my word for it that I was actually employed and doing that work during that period of time, trust me guys I'm legit
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Jul 26, 2011 05:56
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MEET ME BY DUCKS posted:I'm mostly just trying to wrap my head around what a political-based yet party-less resume would even look like. It seems akin to listing that one did patent litigation from 2006-2008 in San Francisco but not listing a firm, you just have to take my word for it that I was actually employed and doing that work during that period of time, trust me guys I'm legit That's true of plenty of things on your resume. If they want to verify it, they'll ask you for details or contact information.
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Jul 26, 2011 06:00
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CmdrSmirnoff posted:At a job-search-help event a few months back, one older student mentioned how she put all of her religious involvement on her resume (she hid what church but I'm 99% certain she meant Jewish groups), and one time a lawyer told her something along the lines of her killing her chances at that firm by putting that info in. The recruiter hosting the event - as well as the panel - were all horrified and said that it's not true (and would be completely unethical/illegal), but common sense implies that it's going to be an issue. Counterpoint: do you really want to work somewhere that reads "Muslim Young Student Leadership Delegate" as "loving MUSLIM" rather than "leadership delegate?" When I get a resume on my desk (and when my resume was on their desk) that says "Spectrum Alliance State President," I don't see "human being," I see "hey, State President of something." Put your good stuff on your resume. In this climate, do you really want to short change yourself?
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Jul 26, 2011 06:01
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MEET ME BY DUCKS posted:Well that's great. They can probably guess which presidential campaign it's referring to, and it also would eliminate the ability to include more prestigious roles for say, Speaker of the House or Senate Majority Leader. Looks like my resume is going to be as difficult and messy as I expected. I don't even know how one would list some of those positions without indicating the individual one worked for, or at least doing so without it looking very weird. I mean, obviously you do it without being ridiculous about it. It's not a hard and fast rule. In a lot of cases, the prestige points probably outweigh the potential harms. Use your good judgment. 99% of the time they're going to know what party you were working for, they just want to see that you don't come off like a twat. (Obama for America, yes. Obama for America, DEMOCRAT FOR PRESIDENT is probably redundant and does more harm than good.) MoFauxHawk posted:Edit: Warszawa, think about a name change. My lawyer grandpa was R. Greenberg before he circumcised his last name. Unlike your grandpa, I don't let knives near my dick or my name. The Warszawa fucked around with this message at 06:11 on Jul 26, 2011 |
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Jul 26, 2011 06:09
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Jul 26, 2011 06:19
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The Warszawa posted:Unlike your grandpa, I don't let knives near my dick or my name. "Oh, I see here you were on the Law Review at Yale, Mr.--" *record scratch* *partner slowly backs away, mouthing "Cuban" repeatedly* *boasts to other partners at lunch about close call with ethnic applicant*
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Jul 26, 2011 10:45
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BigHead posted:Counterpoint: do you really want to work somewhere that reads "Muslim Young Student Leadership Delegate" as "loving MUSLIM" rather than "leadership delegate?" When I get a resume on my desk (and when my resume was on their desk) that says "Spectrum Alliance State President," I don't see "human being," I see "hey, State President of something." This. I really struggled with whether or not to put my part time job (I teach pole dancing) on my resume. I decided to keep it simple with the company name and my position after speaking with another instructor, who's an articling student. She was ballsy enough to put the words "pole dancing" on her resume. I figured firms can google the company if they want. Basically, if a firm isn't going to interview me because I teach women how to exercise, despite all of my other experiences, then I probably don't want to work in that environment. (I know it's not the same as religion but you get what I'm saying.) Penguins Like Pies fucked around with this message at 13:29 on Jul 26, 2011 |
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Jul 26, 2011 13:25
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atlas of bugs posted:"Oh, I see here you were on the Law Review at Yale, Mr.--" *record scratch* *partner slowly backs away, mouthing "Cuban" repeatedly* *boasts to other partners at lunch about close call with ethnic applicant* Ridiculous. Warz goes to Harvard, that provides more than enough white identity - his Cuban identity is now just a cute afterthought that allow firms to hire a Harvard student while also knocking out a "diversity" slot.
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Jul 26, 2011 14:15
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entris posted:Ridiculous. Warz goes to Harvard, that provides more than enough white identity - his Cuban identity is now just a cute afterthought that allow firms to hire a Harvard student while also knocking out a "diversity" slot. I can't tell if you're trying extra hard to get under Warz's (brown) skin by saying he goes to Harvard. I'm thinking of just leaving my law school off my resume. What if somebody at the firm went to Chicago and hates Northwestern?? I'm just going to put "Law School." Also I share my first and last name (fortunately not middle name) with a B list child rapist/sports commentator so I probably just shouldn't even bothering applying to any firms where any of the partners have kids. MoFauxHawk fucked around with this message at 15:12 on Jul 26, 2011 |
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Jul 26, 2011 14:19
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Penguins Like Pies posted:This. I really struggled with whether or not to put my part time job (I teach pole dancing) on my resume. I decided to keep it simple with the company name and my position after speaking with another instructor, who's an articling student. She was ballsy enough to put the words "pole dancing" on her resume. I figured firms can google the company if they want. Like Ray Charles feeling a woman's wrist, I'd give you an interview if you listed pole dancing.
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Jul 26, 2011 14:35
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A bit off topic, but does anyone know where I could find the legal definition of "urgent" and an "emergent" medical situation in Virginia? I've looked online but without success. Thanks.
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Jul 26, 2011 15:10
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The Warszawa posted:This, on the other hand, I've been told to edit (or at least temper). Not mentioning party affiliations is sort of a big one (and that includes employers - no need to mention that the Congressional campaign you worked for was Democratic or Republican). The rule of thumb is that the firms take clients from both sides of the aisle, so they're not so much looking for ideological concurrence so much as they want to be sure you can shut the gently caress up about it and do the job without annoying the client. Obviously this is more firm-oriented, because a lot of public interest groups tend to skew one way or the other (well, one way at least). The job I have today came from an OCI interview where we discussed extensively my time in the College Democrats (of course, being a Democrat in NYC is pretty much the opposite of say, being a Muslim in Ohio). There's a ton of law students that used to work in politics out there. Removing political experience because it implies a preference for a particular party strikes me as a bit too paranoid, particularly for legal jobs.
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Jul 26, 2011 19:48
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Jul 26, 2011 20:24
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Thanks for the discussion/advice, guys. I've decided to chance it and keep it on there, just because I'd rather err on the side of avoiding racists (even if it means not having a job). I feel like my ethnic/religious identity are sort of a big part of the package, and I'd rather not hide it. I'm going to be fasting during OCI anyway, so it's kind of unavoidable.  EDIT: on the plus side, one of our OCI biglaw firms does family law and one of their founding partners is the president of our local Legal Aid that I'll be doing my externship at this fall. I'm going to try to have lunch with him to talk about Legal Aida and pro bono work and so on, so... I feel slightly hopeful?  They also for whatever reason haven't posted their GPA cutoffs. A teeny thread of hope is better than nothing at all.
Neko Sou fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Jul 26, 2011 |
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Jul 26, 2011 22:15
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NC bar essay trip report: Not 100% sure I passed but not 100% sure I failed, either. That's probably good enough, right? Got a good 2-3 pages down for every question and my hand feels like it's broken. I realized after the fact that I did some stupid poo poo like listing the distinction between public figures and private figures without saying which on the plaintiff in the question was. Oops. Hopefully that's not enough to sink me though.
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Jul 26, 2011 22:37
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joat mon posted:This entire thing is funny, but I actually laughed the most at the decision to include that footnote.
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Jul 26, 2011 22:40
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The Wise Teen posted:I realized after the fact that I did some stupid poo poo like listing the distinction between public figures and private figures without saying which on the plaintiff in the question was. Oops. Hopefully that's not enough to sink me though. You are definitely overestimating the quality of a passing answer. You did fine.
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Jul 26, 2011 22:49
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Just got done with the MO bar essay. I generally did fine. There was one question about appealing mid-trial an order regarding an allegedly unconscionable forum selection clause between a US and a British corporation in a Federal district court with diversity jurisdiction where I was just like... wtf do you even want me to talk about here? Is this contract law? Personal jurisdiction? Venue? Conflict of laws? When an order is final? Something procedural? I think I babbled something nonsensical about venue for about ten minutes then decided to use the rest of the time on the questions I knew some sort of answer to. The good thing is that if I don't know then nobody else does either! Also I slept 2 hours last night because my hotel room was too hot and drank two pots of coffee today and now I can't speak to human beings.
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Jul 26, 2011 23:02
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There are 1 day bar exams?
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Jul 26, 2011 23:37
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Saw a girl crying in her car at the bar during lunch today Morning session wasn't even hard
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Jul 26, 2011 23:43
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Roger_Mudd posted:There are 1 day bar exams? The Missouri bar is two day, all essays the first day, all multiple choice the second.
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Jul 26, 2011 23:52
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Here's one some attorneys and I got to discussing the other day. Death is not an option: Retake the bar exam or Retake the LSAT (For the record, I would rather retake the LSAT. The two people I was with disagreed - I think the difference is I did Kaplan LSAT review and they didn't.)
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Jul 26, 2011 23:55
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Retake the LSAT, of course. That's not even a question. One-day test that doesn't require you to know anything versus a two or three day test that requires you to memorize a ton of crap? Gimme a break
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Jul 26, 2011 23:57
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LSAT, no doubt about it. All the LSAT requires is generic reasoning ability and practice drawing pictures of gimmicky games. The bar is memorization of hundreds or thousands of pages of minutia.
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Jul 27, 2011 00:08
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I'd take the LSAT again AND let you kick me in the dick instead of taking the bar exam.
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Jul 27, 2011 00:11
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Carooe posted:Saw a girl crying in her car at the bar during lunch today Haha I had the exact same experience. Apparently there were others that my friends spotted as well. And yeah, I'd take two back-to-back LSATs before taking the bar again, I was out of that poo poo in time to catch football that Saturday.
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Jul 27, 2011 00:16
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Carooe posted:Saw a girl crying in her car at the bar during lunch today Maybe a relative of hers died.
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Jul 27, 2011 00:23
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Alaemon posted:(For the record, I would rather retake the LSAT. The two people I was with disagreed - I think the difference is I did Kaplan LSAT review and they didn't.) I didn't study for the LSAT at all, let alone take a review course, and I'd still rather take the LSAT again than the bar, what the hell are your colleagues thinking?
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Jul 27, 2011 00:46
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Carooe posted:Saw a girl crying in her car at the bar during lunch today ...were you taking the GA bar? Same thing happened here.
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Jul 27, 2011 01:20
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Carooe posted:Saw a girl crying in her car at the bar during lunch today When I took the bar a sizable number of seats in the gigantic thousand man assigned seating auditorium that were filled on day 1 were empty on day 2. The good news is even with the lowish NY pass rate that was probably a good chunk of the failures.
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Jul 27, 2011 01:42
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CaptainScraps posted:I'd take the LSAT again
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Jul 27, 2011 01:44
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The NY bar essays wasn't bad, time to bring out that skill at multiple choice tests for its last hurrah tomorrow
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Jul 27, 2011 01:44
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Is anyone else taking a bar exam that has state multiple-choice questions? Or is it just Florida? P.S., they're loving atrocious.
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