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Rhymenoceros posted:Jon I felt was awful and self-righteous. It doesn't seem like he knows what he's doing and he managed to get stabbed, drat. He's probably not going to die, I'm betting he'll be saved by Melisandre and turned into the Jon Redsnow or something. Once again he has no skill or agency, he's just lucky and self-pitying (boo hoo, I'm a bastard, kill the child) I disagree with this - aside from the self-pity issue. Jon did what a Lord should do to protect those he oversees - probably what Ned would have if he had ever made it to the Wall - and made more progress in actually trying to improve the conditions of the Wall and its towers / castles instead of letting them continue to fall into disrepair than probably the previous 4 or 5 Lord Commanders combined in 6-10 months.
Those around Jon were too stupid to realize the bigger threat is on their way and had a misguided notion about what "for the Watch" meant. Jon knew that the current Watch and the Wildlings were not enough, that he needed Stannis and his men and the northmen to fight the Others. Jon repeated Robb's and Ned's mistakes, did not listen to his wolf and put his trust in the others around him and blinded himself into thinking he was okay because he was "doing the right thing". He was not as savvy as Littlefinger or Varys would be in creating some alliances or in how to relay information to his subordinates. As for the letter itself, Jon is the last person Ramsay should want involved in this, but Ramsay is insane. Jon would tell the north that it's not Arya, the Bolton's hold on the north would completely crumble and Manderly would probably crush Ramsay to death. geeves fucked around with this message at 13:54 on Jul 27, 2011 |
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Jul 27, 2011 13:52
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Having finished the book, I expected - to the last - that something had to happen. I got that horrible feeling as I approached the last couple of chapters that even the battle outside Meereen wasn't going to happen, and with every subsequent chapter it got stronger and stronger. I finally realised, upon reading the first few lines of the epilogue, that holy poo poo GRRM genuinely did not include the loving climax to the entire book. This is not being a cock-tease, this is being a bad author. I know it's been mentioned a thousand times before, but nothing actually happens in this book that is exciting. In short, this is a bad book.
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Jul 27, 2011 13:59
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Rhymenoceros posted:The Bran part was kinda lame, so he went to a cave in the north with the children, and there's this 1000 year old half-tree dude "I'll teach you to see through the trees", what good is that gonna do? How is he going to do anything useful with that? And we didn't get any cool lore about the first men or whatever. What do you mean how will he do anything useful? Being able to see a thousand locations in Westeros at will, or warg into a bird and fly there? Plus Mormont's talking raven that he's clearly gonna warg into and use to communicate with Jon? It's an incredibly potent ability, how can you say "what good is that gonna do?" I'll agree there should have been more background on the CotF/First Men/Bloodraven though, especially when he didn't seem too shy about giving huge amounts of background even on stuff nobody cares about.
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Jul 27, 2011 14:10
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hampig posted:For someone who hasn't read the rest of the series, you have a better grip on Dany than so many people who have. Kudos. You're right, she has more ties to the Free Cities, more ties to Slaver's Bay and more ties to her freed slaves than to anyone in Westeros. She has no incentive to take the Iron Throne and plenty of reasons to stay where she is. Every dream Dany has is about a house with a red door and a lemon(cake) tree outside. So yes, she doesn't even dream about going home to Westeros. It's just this goal that's been seared into her head since day one. I suspect that if she ever does reach Westeros, she'll realize that she doesn't like it at all. And she'll probably go home. I honestly don't expect her to end up sitting on the Iron Throne in the end, even if she survives. Edit: Also I'm very pro-Mance Sent the Letter. This is going to be a thing we argue about for a few years right? Ghost Hat fucked around with this message at 14:42 on Jul 27, 2011 |
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Jul 27, 2011 14:39
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Dany could end up taking over Pentos which seems to have suddenly become a Thing in the series. The Queen Across the Water, eh?
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Jul 27, 2011 15:05
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I can see that happening, and it's honestly been an idea in the back of my head since like Qarth. Having: Aegon: King on the Iron Throne Dany: Queen beyond the Sea Jon: King Beyond the Wall Would fill out the 3-headed dragon and have a nice symmetry to it. Though I don't know if I can see the Wall surviving the series, especially if the Horn of Joramun is still out there somewhere.
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Jul 27, 2011 15:35
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Ghost Hat posted:Every dream Dany has is about a house with a red door and a lemon(cake) tree outside. So yes, she doesn't even dream about going home to Westeros. It's just this goal that's been seared into her head since day one. I suspect that if she ever does reach Westeros, she'll realize that she doesn't like it at all. I think she said that was just her (first) house in Braavos before she had to flee from Robert's assassins.
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Jul 27, 2011 16:15
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geeves posted:As for the letter itself, Jon is the last person Ramsay should want involved in this, but Ramsay is insane. Jon would tell the north that it's not Arya, the Bolton's hold on the north would completely crumble and Manderly would probably crush Ramsay to death. Unless he's baiting him for a trap and expects to murder one of the few people who could say that Jeyne is not Arya. Honestly, it's a neat little package: Ramsay goads Jon into becoming a deserter. The punishment for that is death. Doesn't matter if he confronts Jon or if he is beaten by Stannis, either way Jon is going to die. If it was Mance, why would he effectively give Jon a death sentence? He's far more useful to him as Lord Commander on the Wall, as just about everyone else on/near the Wall would rather just dump the wildlings into the sea and be done with it. The only explanation is that Mance found a better deal with someone else. Perhaps an intercepted crow from the Vale?
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Jul 27, 2011 16:21
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geeves posted:I disagree with this - aside from the self-pity issue. geeves posted:
And when the freakin' huge wolf doesn't obey his commands, he's being all "Well gosh that's strange" instead of worrying about having a huge loving wolf on the loose in the castle. geeves posted:Jon repeated Robb's and Ned's mistakes, did not listen to his wolf and put his trust in the others around him and blinded himself into thinking he was okay because he was "doing the right thing". He was not as savvy as Littlefinger or Varys would be in creating some alliances or in how to relay information to his subordinates. Ecco the Dolphin posted:What do you mean how will he do anything useful? Being able to see a thousand locations in Westeros at will, or warg into a bird and fly there? Plus Mormont's talking raven that he's clearly gonna warg into and use to communicate with Jon? It's an incredibly potent ability, how can you say "what good is that gonna do?"
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Jul 27, 2011 16:27
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Rhymenoceros posted:Jon was too stupid to spell it out to his men. He could have been like "listen, the only reason I'm doing this is because the option is dying at the hand of the Others. The other option is literally being torn to pieces by zombies" and failing that, he could have had some body guards or even a huge freakin' wolf that seems to look after him. Doesn't Jon actually have a meeting on top of the wall with Marsh and others where he explicitly spells out what he is doing and why? Before he lets in Tormund and sends the eastwatch ships out he does exactly that. quote:Why didn't he listen to Melisandre? She obviously has some ability predicting the future. "Daggers all around you" NOPE, just gonna wander around, cutting people's heads off, letting the wildlings pass the wall, nobody's gonna get pissed form that. Obviously danger was all around him. He is on the wall with three factions at each others' throats and snow zombies ready to attack. Try telling him something he doesn't already know. The last time he relied on something Mel told him, she turned out to have misinterpreted her vision, so he doesn't have any real reason to believe her, and its not like she said "Bowen Marsh is going to stab you".
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Jul 27, 2011 16:35
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Bizob posted:Doesn't Jon actually have a meeting on top of the wall with Marsh and others where he explicitly spells out what he is doing and why? Before he lets in Tormund and sends the eastwatch ships out he does exactly that. The other guys obviously don't have the education to have sophisticated arguments weighing the pros and cons of Jon's actions. They saw betrayal, and he saw some weird need to justify what he had already decided he was going to do. It's also ridiculous that he invokes the oath, having broken it so many times himself. Seems to me he's trying to be pragmatic but failing because he's kind of incompetent. Take the giant, it's all well and nice to realize giants aren't blood thirsty man eaters, but it's still negligent to have him around people, even though the gentle giant was provoked by an rear end in a top hat. It's these astounding lacks of foresight that make me think Jon is annoying. Jon is basically super privileged but doesn't know it (because I'm a bastard boo hoo), grew up at Winterfell wanting for naught, has a sweet rear end direwolf as a pet, even joined the wall voluntary. The other guys there are losers who had no other choice, of course they're going to chose - what is in their eyes - staying alive over some crazy scheme for the 'good of the realm'. Bizob posted:Obviously danger was all around him. He is on the wall with three factions at each others' throats and snow zombies ready to attack. Try telling him something he doesn't already know. The last time he relied on something Mel told him, she turned out to have misinterpreted her vision, so he doesn't have any real reason to believe her, and its not like she said "Bowen Marsh is going to stab you". Rhymenoceros fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Jul 27, 2011 |
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Jul 27, 2011 16:43
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Rhymenoceros posted:Why didn't he listen to Melisandre? She obviously has some ability predicting the future. "Daggers all around you" NOPE, just gonna wander around, cutting people's heads off, letting the wildlings pass the wall, nobody's gonna get pissed form that. I honestly don't blame him here. Before AdwD, I didn't trust her and thought she was a shady piece of poo poo. You can't expect Jon to suddenly embrace her just because we the reader have embraced her. From his perspective, she lied to him once about her sister so why would he take her advice again?
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Jul 27, 2011 16:43
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VaultAggie posted:I honestly don't blame him here. Before AdwD, I didn't trust her and thought she was a shady piece of poo poo. You can't expect Jon to suddenly embrace her just because we the reader have embraced her. From his perspective, she lied to him once about her sister so why would he take her advice again? When somone you do not trust tells you "There's daggers all around you. watch out" that doesn't mean you should inverse it and take it to mean everything is fine. It's still a good reason to be suspicious. Edit: I'm just annoyed that Jon got stabbed, his death or an eventual 'turns out he didn't die anyway' are both annoying. And now GURM is holding me hostage 
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Jul 27, 2011 16:49
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I love that everyone is saying "GRRM needs to get [character x] to [plot point z] in the next two books..." since this entire series has been subverting our expectations for the characters. I highly doubt that any of us can guess where the story is going at this point, which is why it is so exciting.DarkCrawler posted:Yeah, Dany has no complications about nailing hundred people on loving crosses and let them die in agony for days, but he can't take a man from every major house and do the same two times when her rule over the city is threatened? Re-read the part after she does that. When she actually gets into the city and sees (and smells) all the dead bodies she realizes that it was a horribly barbaric thing to do and basically swears that she won't be that cruel again. It's all well and good to be an internet tough-guy and say that you would rule people with an iron fist, but when you actually smell a bunch of bloated and rotting bodies lying in the desert sun, it makes a world of difference in your outlook on life.
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Jul 27, 2011 17:46
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Has there ever been a case in the books that someone acting on a prophecy ever turned out "ok". Jon knows (knew?!) that there are knives all around him. He's the Lord Commander of the loving wall while the Others are coming down. It's pretty loving obvious he's in danger, at all times. Ignoring all of that red priest bullshit is the best path to go. Mel: "I see a girl on horse...." Jon: "Yeah, that's you. 'Cuz I'm sending your rear end back to Stannis.  "
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Jul 27, 2011 17:47
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I got the feeling that Jon wouldn't have been at all surprised if Marsh & Co. had attempted to depose him. He just didn't expect 
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Jul 27, 2011 18:02
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Going back to the "perfumed seneschal" mentioned in Quaithe's prophecy - I'm pretty sure this is a reference to the boat that Tyrion/Aegon/Connington/etc. were taking to volantis. They mention that the translation of the boat name is something like "The Fragrant Steward" or somesuch. I think this, combined with the warning of a "mummer's dragon" is strongly indicative that the Aegon that Connington has raised is a fake, and a pretender to the throne.
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Jul 27, 2011 18:06
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Rhymenoceros posted:Ned would have cut of every head at the wall for oath breaking, even his own. With Stannis in the mix it would be an iron gripped dutch-rudder fest of honor and duty. quote:Jon was too stupid to spell it out to his men. He could have been like "listen, the only reason I'm doing this is because the option is dying at the hand of the Others. The other option is literally being torn to pieces by zombies" and failing that, he could have had some body guards or even a huge freakin' wolf that seems to look after him. quote:It's also ridiculous that he invokes the oath, having broken it so many times himself. Seems to me he's trying to be pragmatic but failing because he's kind of incompetent. Take the giant, it's all well and nice to realize giants aren't blood thirsty man eaters, but it's still negligent to have him around people, even though the gentle giant was provoked by an rear end in a top hat. quote:Jon is basically super privileged but doesn't know it (because I'm a bastard boo hoo), grew up at Winterfell wanting for naught, has a sweet rear end direwolf as a pet, even joined the wall voluntary. The other guys there are losers who had no other choice, of course they're going to chose - what is in their eyes - staying alive over some crazy scheme for the 'good of the realm'. quote:Why didn't he listen to Melisandre? She obviously has some ability predicting the future. "Daggers all around you" NOPE, just gonna wander around, cutting people's heads off, letting the wildlings pass the wall, nobody's gonna get pissed form that. I guess I felt that, overall, Jon was one of the few characters in this book that, with one or two exceptions, displayed a good amount of common sense in his decision making.
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Jul 27, 2011 18:36
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NJ Deac posted:Going back to the "perfumed seneschal" mentioned in Quaithe's prophecy - I'm pretty sure this is a reference to the boat that Tyrion/Aegon/Connington/etc. were taking to volantis. They mention that the translation of the boat name is something like "The Fragrant Steward" or somesuch. I think this, combined with the warning of a "mummer's dragon" is strongly indicative that the Aegon that Connington has raised is a fake, and a pretender to the throne. Tyrion/Aegon/Connington/Haldon/Duck/Lemore/etc were on the Shy Maid. Later, after he gets separate from the first group, Tyrion/Jorah/Penny/Pretty Pig/Crunch/Moqorro (the red priest) board the Selaesori Qhoran. According to Moqorro, Selaesori Qhoran translates to Fragrant Steward.
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Jul 27, 2011 18:53
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Habibi posted:Which heads would those be? Who exactly broke their oath and how? "SoIaF is the worst form of fantasy, except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." - Ser Winston Churchill
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Jul 27, 2011 18:58
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Rhymenoceros posted:I see your points. I just wanted to rant about the book and be angry and annoyed. In part because the stabbing, in part because I had high expectations (that weren't met) and lastly because now I have to wait 5 years for another book (that will not meet my expectations). I'm with you. There's plenty in this book that I'm unhappy with, I guess Jon just wasn't one of those things. As I mentioned in my very first post after finishing the book, although he didn't "go" anywhere, in a physical sense, his plot moved along quite a bit compared to most and he actually did a lot. Contrast that to Dany, who spent most of the book whining, obsessing over someone, off-screen on a dragon, and making GBS threads herself; to Tyrion, who covered a lot of distance but didn't do much besides mouth off to people and ride a pig; to Quentyn, who...well...uhh; and so on. The two Jon's actually did poo poo during this book, even if neither came to a particular resolution, and I thought most of it was pretty cool and halfway intelligent, which I can't really say for most of the other major roles.
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Jul 27, 2011 19:20
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Rhymenoceros posted:I see your points. I just wanted to rant about the book and be angry and annoyed. In part because the stabbing, in part because I had high expectations (that weren't met) and lastly because now I have to wait 5 years for another book (that will not meet my expectations). I highly doubt it will be another 5 years.
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Jul 27, 2011 19:23
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Check out these pictures from EW: http://www.ew.com/ew/gallery/0,,20399642_20512173,00.html#20991769 Lena Headey looks like she's a teenager, and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau looks to be growing out his Jaime Beard. I hardly recognize Emilia Clarke. She looks a lot thinner in the face. Actually looks hotter here than on the show.  I love this picture of the GURM: 
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Jul 27, 2011 19:24
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Actually, the oath of the Night's Watch is to take no wife and sire no children. Technically it doesn't say anything about having sex, as long as you don't make her pregnant.
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Jul 27, 2011 19:26
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Sexpansion posted:I highly doubt it will be another 5 years. Aww... naivete is so cuuuuuute  Of course, I would be overjoyed to be proven wrong. Get on it, GRRM!
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Jul 27, 2011 19:27
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Holy poo poo, the statues of the Seven look loving fantastic. 
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Jul 27, 2011 19:32
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Ray_ posted:Check out these pictures from EW: quote:I love this picture of the GURM: Sexpansion posted:I highly doubt it will be another 5 years.
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Jul 27, 2011 19:37
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Habibi posted:He tried to spell it out. He maybe didn't do it to perfection, but he attempted to lay out his thought process, and most of the other higher-ups just didn't get it. Again, and as with Ned, more than anything it's his lack of practice at politicking that led to it. Jon makes a good point that dead wildlings become undead walkers, but Marsh's position isn't just "LALALA I'm not listening". Marsh wants to freeze shut the remaining gatehouses and protect the realm that way. The builders and stewards support him, but the rangers reject this plan. Seeing as how every ranging seems to have a high casualty rate, I can see why many at Castle Black would support Marsh's plan and reject Jon plan to man the Wall with the only enemy the Night's Watch has known for centuries.
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Jul 27, 2011 19:44
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geeves posted:Those around Jon were too stupid to realize the bigger threat is on their way and had a misguided notion about what "for the Watch" meant. Jon knew that the current Watch and the Wildlings were not enough, that he needed Stannis and his men and the northmen to fight the Others.. Sending the night watch to the obvious death trap that is hard home was a colossal gently caress up and appears to be what triggered the rebellion. The choice between fighting undead polar bears and all their terrifying woodland friends and the Others in the middle of the woods, and fighting all the above plus a couple thousand generic zombies from ontop of a huge fuckoff wall would be a no brainer for anyone not completely blinded by a need to save everyone. If I were in the night watch I would have stabbed him too. The wall was built for a reason.
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Jul 27, 2011 20:22
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But the wildlings have also been known to be friendly too right? Didn't some night's watch guy get taken to a wildling village to get his wounds tended to or something
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Jul 27, 2011 20:22
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^^^^ Mance before he left to join the Wildlings.Blind Melon posted:Sending the night watch to the obvious death trap that is hard home was a colossal gently caress up and appears to be what triggered the rebellion. The choice between fighting undead polar bears and all their terrifying woodland friends and the Others in the middle of the woods, and fighting all the above plus a couple thousand generic zombies from ontop of a huge fuckoff wall would be a no brainer for anyone not completely blinded by a need to save everyone. Like I (and others) said, needed some savvy politicking and for christ sake's send them discretely, don't hold a giant loving pep rally. Frame it as a small recon group to check out the letter's authenticity and try to recruit more for the Watch or at the very least see if the northmen / remaining Stannis forces would remain in The Gift to see how things unfold.
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Jul 27, 2011 20:56
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whalestory posted:But the wildlings have also been known to be friendly too right? Didn't some night's watch guy get taken to a wildling village to get his wounds tended to or something That was Mance and it was what sparked his desertion really, and yea they really are just people who ended up on the wrong side of the wall when it was built who knows how many years ago. The problem is the vast majority of people in the night's watch are too stupid and set in their ways to realize that the wall wasn't built to keep the wildlings out, it was built to defend against the white walkers. All the people that may have been allies to Snow and really realize that what he was doing was necessary are dead in the last few books or gone far enough away to the other castles to not be able to back him up much, he's been left with the dregs of uppity noblemen who think they know better then everyone else and they probably don't even see the wildlings as human.
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Jul 27, 2011 20:58
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Caufman posted:Jon makes a good point that dead wildlings become undead walkers, but Marsh's position isn't just "LALALA I'm not listening". Marsh wants to freeze shut the remaining gatehouses and protect the realm that way. The builders and stewards support him, but the rangers reject this plan. Seeing as how every ranging seems to have a high casualty rate, I can see why many at Castle Black would support Marsh's plan and reject Jon plan to man the Wall with the only enemy the Night's Watch has known for centuries.
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Jul 27, 2011 21:17
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What happened at the wall is the result of losing all the men with balls and having it run by stewards and builders.
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Jul 27, 2011 21:21
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So GRRM has now said it's going to be 8 books rather than 7. http://io9.com/5820288/george-rr-martins-song-of-ice-and-fire-may-turn-out-to-be-eight-books-instead-of-seven
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Jul 27, 2011 21:41
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Midnight- posted:So GRRM has now said it's going to be 8 books rather than 7. By "now" you mean an article posted weeks ago, and by "going to be 8 books" you mean he said it might or might not and that he knows better to promise anything. Did I get that right?
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Jul 27, 2011 21:45
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Royality posted:Having finished the book, I expected - to the last - that something had to happen. I got that horrible feeling as I approached the last couple of chapters that even the battle outside Meereen wasn't going to happen, and with every subsequent chapter it got stronger and stronger. I finally realised, upon reading the first few lines of the epilogue, that holy poo poo GRRM genuinely did not include the loving climax to the entire book. This is not being a cock-tease, this is being a bad author. Except things DO happen. I absolutely CANNOT understand how people say nothing happened in ADWD. There were no resolutions, but THINGS HAPPENED.
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Jul 27, 2011 21:45
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Midnight- posted:So GRRM has now said it's going to be 8 books rather than 7. I'll take "Gawker sites show how much they suck yet AGAIN" for $2000, Alex. quote:- Do you still think you'll be able to wrap everything up in the remaining two books? - On the flip side, here's a quote the Wild Cards will likely be treasuring for years: quote:And if I'm guilty of having gratuitous sex, then I'm also guilty of having gratuitous violence, and gratuitous feasting, and gratuitous description of clothes, and gratuitous heraldry, because very little of this is necessary to advance the plot. NihilCredo fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Jul 27, 2011 |
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Jul 27, 2011 21:51
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NihilCredo posted:I'll take "Gawker sites show how much they suck yet AGAIN" for $2000, Alex. Holy poo poo, that is an unforgivably awful headline if that quote is all it's based on. He said pretty much the opposite of that.
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Jul 27, 2011 21:54
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Ecco the Dolphin posted:Holy poo poo, that is an unforgivably awful headline if that quote is all it's based on. He said pretty much the opposite of that. For a minute there I thought that GRRM actually had died and has since been possessed by the spirit of Jordan. Book 6 would consist of Dany smoothing out her dress (she already has the braid to tug on) and knitting while talking about those troublesome boys. By book 14 she might have got out of Meereen.
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Jul 27, 2011 22:15
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