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Iggles posted:Without commenting on the likelihood of this, why would the fact that Tyrion isn't Tywin's biological son nullify the whole conflict? Because he craves acceptance from his father, if Tywin isn't his father then that need doesn't have to exist.
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Jul 28, 2011 23:32
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Le Woad posted:No one's talking about it because it's not really a thing. I don't think Selmy's speech says what you think it said. I don't mean to say that the "liberties" Aerys took at Joanna's bedding themselves resulted in Tyrion -- that wouldn't make sense chronologically. But just the inclusion of Selmy's description of Aerys's infatuation with Joanna is very, very telling. That's what the whole heretofore flimsy theory was based on. It's not the sort of detail GRRM is going to carelessly toss into the book. It could just be a red herring I suppose, but if so, what the gently caress?
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Jul 28, 2011 23:33
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Affi posted:I started reading Dance just recently and I'm just dumbstruck as to what happened in any of the other books. I need some resource I can read to catch me up. I tried finding one at Tower of the Hand but couldn't. I did a "quick" catch up using a Wiki of Ice and Fire Chapter Summeries in preparation. There's character links to, but you might want to avoid them as they reference things that happen in a Dance with Dragons already.
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Jul 28, 2011 23:42
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Iggles posted:Without commenting on the likelihood of this, why would the fact that Tyrion isn't Tywin's biological son nullify the whole conflict? Because the source of the whole conflict is Tyrion's becoming, through no fault of his own, the sole blemish on the otherwise immaculate edifice of power and overwhelming success that Tywin so ferociously built out of his life. Being the literal product of his body, he is living proof that his father is capable of having flaws. As a secret Targ, he's just the consequence of Tywin being deceived. I mean I guess that is a flaw in itself, but it doesn't really have the same force to it I don't think, and it also shifts the blame for it from Tyrion to Aerys. High school English class itt. I didn't mean it to sound like that, just kinda came out that way.
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Jul 28, 2011 23:46
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For some reason the visual I got from the "liberties" Aerys took during Tywins wedding bedding was pulling up a chair, leaning forward, and watching creepily.PeterWeller posted:Strong female characters acting utterly retarded out of love is a time honored tradition of epic fantasy. See Laurana in Dragons of Spring Dawning. I think that's the name of the 8th book. 
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Jul 28, 2011 23:49
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^ I saw groping at the very least. Kissed her, felt her up, that sort of thing. Creepy leering doesn't really fit Mad King.Ecco the Dolphin posted:As a secret Targ, he's just the consequence of Tywin being deceived. What makes you think deception had anything to do with it? Not much yo can do when the king rapes your wife... Except maybe bide your time and unleash Ser Gregor on his family. Blind Melon fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Jul 29, 2011 |
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Jul 29, 2011 00:18
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Guess who is sitting next to me at SFO? He found out I'm a Chargers fan and signed my iPad with "GO JETS!" That absolute fucker.
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Jul 29, 2011 00:32
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He definitely modeled Manderly after himself.
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Jul 29, 2011 01:35
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If there's one overused phrase in the books, it's "broke their/his/her fast".
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Jul 29, 2011 01:57
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EC posted:This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, but I get the impression sometimes that people want GRRM to just provide a list of plot points as opposed to writing the next book. I love all the background, the history, the world-building...I don't need to rush to the ultimate climax anytime soon. I'd like the books sooner rather than later, of course, but not everything needs to happen right loving now for the book to be good. Truer words cannot be said.
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Jul 29, 2011 02:11
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bigmcgaffney posted:Gold teeth are a sign of power and wealth, and blue hair signifies Targaryen heritage. Match made in heaven! Daario is a secret Targ. It is all but confirmed. e: At this point I am kind of hoping that Victarion is the one to win after everything is said and done. The more I think about them the more awesome the greyjoys get. Arrrthritis fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Jul 29, 2011 |
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Jul 29, 2011 03:22
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Mr.Brinks posted:He definitely modeled Manderly after himself. If there was some sort of moral to the story it would be that there is more to fat people than meets the eye. Manderly, isn't the slothful fat man everyone portrays him to be. That fat slave master who smell horrendous, turns out to be one of the nicer masters. Illyrio was a young, skinny and romantic once.
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Jul 29, 2011 03:23
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I love all the background. Honestly it makes me want him to continue writing in the world even after the series is done. I'd love more stories set in the past.
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Jul 29, 2011 03:52
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Scoobi posted:I love all the background. Honestly it makes me want him to continue writing in the world even after the series is done. I'd love more stories set in the past. If it weren't for gurm's crippling inability to actually write things, I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see him take a Silmarillion-esque historical account of, like, Aegon's Landing or something after the series was over.
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Jul 29, 2011 03:55
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Scoobi posted:I love all the background. Honestly it makes me want him to continue writing in the world even after the series is done. I'd love more stories set in the past. Agree with this. I didn't get all the moaning about the rumored possibility of an 8th book. I take just the opposite view: I don't want the series to end and I'll read the gently caress out of every book he writes for it.
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Jul 29, 2011 04:03
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regulargonzalez posted:Agree with this. I didn't get all the moaning about the rumored possibility of an 8th book. I take just the opposite view: I don't want the series to end and I'll read the gently caress out of every book he writes for it. My problem isn't with the world or with GRRM spending time there, it's just that the overall narrative is noticeably bloating and starting to go into a tailspin. I'd really rather he start writing faux-guidebooks to Westeros or short stories or whatever as sideworks to ASOIAF, and instead focused on tightening up the narrative. But on the other hand, genre fiction is bought and sold based on length rather than any sort of quality, especially SF/F.
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Jul 29, 2011 04:16
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Arrrthritis posted:Daario is a secret Targ. It is all but confirmed. At this point I'm laying money on "The Perfumed Senescal" being refurbished by the slavers after it's raided, then captured by Victarion and used as his flagship.
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Jul 29, 2011 04:16
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SelfOM posted:If there was some sort of moral to the story it would be that there is more to fat people than meets the eye. Manderly, isn't the slothful fat man everyone portrays him to be. That fat slave master who smell horrendous, turns out to be one of the nicer masters. Illyrio was a young, skinny and romantic once. I wish Illyrio wasn't such a lardass. He's one of my favorite minor characters.
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Jul 29, 2011 04:19
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Effectronica posted:My problem isn't with the world or with GRRM spending time there, it's just that the overall narrative is noticeably bloating and starting to go into a tailspin. I'd really rather he start writing faux-guidebooks to Westeros or short stories or whatever as sideworks to ASOIAF, and instead focused on tightening up the narrative. But on the other hand, genre fiction is bought and sold based on length rather than any sort of quality, especially SF/F. Well, the quality is still top-notch, so I don't see ASOIAF delving into average genre fiction.
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Jul 29, 2011 04:23
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Ecco the Dolphin posted:If it weren't for gurm's crippling inability to actually write things, I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see him take a Silmarillion-esque historical account of, like, Aegon's Landing or something after the series was over. Although I am just a young girl and know little of the ways of bloat, I would read the poo poo out of that. The level of detail he's put into the world is delightful. Also a great grimderp RPG setting, so anything that provides some more canonical background would be gladly welcomed by me.
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Jul 29, 2011 04:23
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Did anyone else catch GRRM mentioning a couple of times in dance about how ugly chicks make better wives? Was he hinting at something? Projecting? Poor, poor Paris.
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Jul 29, 2011 04:35
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furushotakeru posted:"where do whores go": 4 times. Miss Nomer posted:If there's one overused phrase in the books, it's "broke their/his/her fast". How many times did the dude use "whilst" because that drove me nuts. Also threw in a few "amongst"s. hand of luke posted:I don't mean to say that the "liberties" Aerys took at Joanna's bedding themselves resulted in Tyrion -- that wouldn't make sense chronologically. But just the inclusion of Selmy's description of Aerys's infatuation with Joanna is very, very telling. That's what the whole heretofore flimsy theory was based on. It's not the sort of detail GRRM is going to carelessly toss into the book. It could just be a red herring I suppose, but if so, what the gently caress? I took all that as explaining why Tywin was happy to violently end Aerys's reign but I'm not always good at picking up subtleties.
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Jul 29, 2011 04:48
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Ecco the Dolphin posted:It would pretty much nullify the whole conflict between him and his father, which is the defining conflict of his entire character, even after Tywin's death. I'm not sure why that would nullify the conflict? It's not like the Targs raised him ever, genetics be damned Tywin is his father. That's not to say that Tyrion's reflection on the relationship wouldn't change, should he ever find out. He already feels intense anger at his father for things that he had no control over, this would only make his father seem like a worse person for how he treated him, directing his anger at his child instead of the party he believes wronged him so dearly. Maarak fucked around with this message at 04:54 on Jul 29, 2011 |
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Jul 29, 2011 04:49
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if Jon Snow was actually a secret Targ and he still thought of Ned as his father we wouldn't hold that against him but if Tyrion was a secret Targ and he thought of Tywin as his father we would never forgive GRRM for destroying such character development
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Jul 29, 2011 05:50
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Another big part of the Tywin/Tyrion conflict is that Tyrion is CLEARLY more like dad than Jaime or Cersei, and a worthy heir to Casterly Rock, but because of his deformity, Tywin will never accept Tyrion as his "true" son. Tyrion is everything Tywin fears to be: capable, but mocked and despised by one and all. If Tyrion is actually Aerys', then Tyrion really ISN'T the true heir to Casterly Rock, which ruins the symbolism of the issue. Basically when Tywin says "You are no son of mine", if it's literally true, it has no emotional resonance.
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Jul 29, 2011 06:01
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porfiria posted:Another big part of the Tywin/Tyrion conflict is that Tyrion is CLEARLY more like dad than Jaime or Cersei, and a worthy heir to Casterly Rock, but because of his deformity, Tywin will never accept Tyrion as his "true" son. Tyrion is everything Tywin fears to be: capable, but mocked and despised by one and all. If Tyrion is actually Aerys', then Tyrion really ISN'T the true heir to Casterly Rock, which ruins the symbolism of the issue. Tyrion is more like Tywin than the his older twins who, like the Targarians, gently caress each other and have abomination babies.
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Jul 29, 2011 06:04
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Comrade Flynn posted:Guess who is sitting next to me at SFO? What a mummer's farce of a shirt.
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Jul 29, 2011 06:32
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Doibhilin posted:What a mummer's farce of a shirt.
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Jul 29, 2011 06:34
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Linguica posted:He was just having a jape Whilst looking for the Serjeant that was supposed to be delivering some lamprey pies for his lunch.
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Jul 29, 2011 06:36
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That book was a slog to get through. Every main POV character is either horribly depressed or wrestling with huge doubts about their place in the world. Victarion's chapters were so refreshing, in that regard. At least he wasn't paralyzed by doubt despite his horrible past. I wish there had been more Victarion. Oh, and I can't wait until Ramsay gets his comeuppance, which probably means he'll survive and die of old age. I didn't mind the length so much as the repetition - oh god the repetition. At times it felt half the novel was made up of the same three or four sentences.
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Jul 29, 2011 06:38
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He was not wrong, a lamprey pie must needs be accompanied by many and more neeps and onions.
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Jul 29, 2011 06:38
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Linguica posted:He was just having a jape Would you say that photo was taken at the Hour of the Wolf? Hour of the Owl? Hour of the Eel? Hour of the Squid? Hour of the Twincest? hand of luke posted:I don't mean to say that the "liberties" Aerys took at Joanna's bedding themselves resulted in Tyrion -- that wouldn't make sense chronologically. But just the inclusion of Selmy's description of Aerys's infatuation with Joanna is very, very telling. That's what the whole heretofore flimsy theory was based on. It's not the sort of detail GRRM is going to carelessly toss into the book. It could just be a red herring I suppose, but if so, what the gently caress? Tywin and Aerys were boyhood friends, and Tywin was Hand of the King for Aerys for something like 20 years. I took that story as background on why they (eventually) had such a fierce falling out. Aerys resented Tywin for Joanna; that's why he hosed over poor innocent Jamie and made him a knight of the Kingsguard and also reneged on the marriage deal for Rhaegar and Cersei.
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Jul 29, 2011 06:39
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porfiria posted:Another big part of the Tywin/Tyrion conflict is that Tyrion is CLEARLY more like dad than Jaime or Cersei, and a worthy heir to Casterly Rock, but because of his deformity, Tywin will never accept Tyrion as his "true" son. Tyrion is everything Tywin fears to be: capable, but mocked and despised by one and all. If Tyrion is actually Aerys', then Tyrion really ISN'T the true heir to Casterly Rock, which ruins the symbolism of the issue. You know, people say this all the time, but Tyrion isn't much like Tywin at all. He's always joking and sarcastic, he's got a pretty big heart, and actually seems to have a working moral compass. Tywin is none of those things, and I'd say those are Tyrion's most important features. They're both really smart guys with a gift for navigating and manipulating politics, but that's pretty much it as far as similarities. To tell the truth, Cersei's personality MUCH more closer aligns with Tywin's except for the Crazy and how emotional she gets and how bad of a ruler she is.
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Jul 29, 2011 06:40
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porfiria posted:Another big part of the Tywin/Tyrion conflict is that Tyrion is CLEARLY more like dad than Jaime or Cersei, and a worthy heir to Casterly Rock, but because of his deformity, Tywin will never accept Tyrion as his "true" son. Tyrion is everything Tywin fears to be: capable, but mocked and despised by one and all. If Tyrion is actually Aerys', then Tyrion really ISN'T the true heir to Casterly Rock, which ruins the symbolism of the issue. I disagree. If Tyrion's central conflict is based solely on his real nature being both at odds with yet secretly informing his self-conception, it actually has more emotional resonance. And it raises very interesting nature v nurture questions. Is Tyrion an awesome schemer because he's Tyrion's "son", or is it because he's an secret Targ? Do Tywin's efforts to ensure that the child not of his blood never inherits Casterly Rock have the opposite effect and ensure that very child is the most suited to inherit the title? Personally though, I think all the potential secret Targs that pop up in DwD are red herrings designed to obfuscate the very obvious R+L=J and J=I&F hints that have been figured out in the long wait between books. So while I can think of reasons why Tyrion is a secret Targ would make sense and have narrative value, I still don't think Tyrion is a secret Targ.
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Jul 29, 2011 06:54
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Count me among those who don't believe Tyr is a Targ. I think the Joanna-Aerys reveal works fine as a partial explanation for the falling out between Tywin and Aerys, and I struggle to believe that if Tywin knew Tyrion wasn't his (which most people who buy the theory seem to think) he wouldn't have banished Tyrion the second Robert planted his fat rear end on the iron throne. If all the X is a Targ theories are true, the last chapter of the series is gonna be a big ole Targaryen family reunion potluck at the water gardens. Dani's bringing lemon cakes!
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Jul 29, 2011 07:15
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Eggnogium posted:Overall I was very satisfied. I liked it a lot more than AFFC and there is a lot of cool setup for book six. Littlefinger is still a total wild card and Varys' motivations are less clear than they seem. If he's just a Targaryan loyalist why put out the death warrant on Dani in AGOT? Best excuse I can think of is Viserys was still in play so he hoped it would get Drogo to cross the seas with Viserys. I don't think he's a Targaryen loyalist. I think he honestly wants what is best for Westeros--a good king. And he's realized that Aegon is the perfect opportunity for a good king. He can be molded to rule, to understand his people--like Merlin and King Arthur. It's not about prolonging the Targaryen dynasty, it's about the opportunity Aegon presents. And I think Viserys and Dany were pawns all along. Varys and Illyrio were hoping that they would cross the sea and invade Westeros with Drogo. At some point in the middle of the fighting--oops--there's another Targaryen with a better claim to the throne! Suddenly V & D are fighting for Aegon, who didn't have to bloody himself in the earliest stages of the war. Nor did he have to soil his future reign with the promises it takes to raise an army.
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Jul 29, 2011 07:17
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Doibhilin posted:I don't think he's a Targaryen loyalist. I think he honestly wants what is best for Westeros--a good king. And he's realized that Aegon is the perfect opportunity for a good king. He can be molded to rule, to understand his people--like Merlin and King Arthur. It's not about prolonging the Targaryen dynasty, it's about the opportunity Aegon presents. That's all well and good but does he really expect Aegon's heirs not to be stupid little brats like everyone else who's ever born into a kingship? If he really wants to set up Westeros with good governance he should become a hippy activist for a more democratic system like they have in the free cities.
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Jul 29, 2011 07:24
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Doibhilin posted:I don't think he's a Targaryen loyalist. I think he honestly wants what is best for Westeros--a good king. And he's realized that Aegon is the perfect opportunity for a good king. He can be molded to rule, to understand his people--like Merlin and King Arthur. It's not about prolonging the Targaryen dynasty, it's about the opportunity Aegon presents.
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Jul 29, 2011 07:34
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Hell, what if Varys is taking issue with the idea of feudal lords and kings altogether? Trying not to shatter any particular family in power, but the very institution that gives them their powers.
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Jul 29, 2011 07:41
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Comrade Flynn posted:Guess who is sitting next to me at SFO? Adorable. He seems so drat friendly in that photo. I think my grandfather has that shirt (retired and in Florida) Why is he always wearing that hat? Oh god, I hope he doesn't plan on writing 3 more books, though. I wouldn't care normally, but, he does look a bit long in the tooth.
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