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Can the Cormac McCarthy fellatio contingent gently caress off back to their own thread please?
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Jul 29, 2011 19:07
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Habibi posted:It's cool, his fans seem to make up for it.
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Jul 29, 2011 19:22
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I just finished reading Jack Vance's Cugel's Saga and it's interesting to see the difference between the way the two authors treat their protagonists, who are similar on a couple of levels. In Vance's case, the titular Cugel is a glib-tongued, highly skilled but extremely arrogant and otherwise unsavory character and because the author freely portrays his negative elements you tend to find the character very appealing and likeable. Rothfuss just seems to like his own characters too much, it almost comes off as if he's trying to convince you that Kvothe is this really cool and likeable guy and it really impedes how much I could sympathize with the character. WMF is marginally better in this regard, so maybe Rothfuss realizes it too.
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Jul 29, 2011 19:31
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The only thing I don't understand is why people who like good literature read my lovely pulpy fantasy books, knowing full well in advance what they're getting into, and then have the gall to complain about it. Honestly.
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Jul 29, 2011 19:50
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Danhenge posted:The only thing I don't understand is why people who like good literature read my lovely pulpy fantasy books, knowing full well in advance what they're getting into, and then have the gall to complain about it. Honestly.
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Jul 29, 2011 19:55
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Above Our Own posted:Rothfuss just seems to like his own characters too much, it almost comes off as if he's trying to convince you that Kvothe is this really cool and likeable guy and it really impedes how much I could sympathize with the character. WMF is marginally better in this regard, so maybe Rothfuss realizes it too. The problem with this criticism isn't that it's necessarily wrong, but that until we get to the end we won't really know if it's right, and even then it's kind of uncertain. Schrodinger's Criticism, as it were. Because the story is basically narrated by Kvothe, it's really hard to distinguish between Rothfuss writing Kvothe too cool or Rothfuss self-awarely having Kvothe writing himself as too cool. And it's something that's even harder to judge without the whole to look at. I'm not saying I think it will all work out okay (I'd say the odds are greater that it will end up being an author issue rather than a deliberate one), but it certainly could end up being a case where reading the beginning knowing the end will forgive a lot of the things that are currently annoying people. It's just hard to tell.
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Jul 29, 2011 20:00
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There is definitely evidence for Kvothe actually being genuinely as cool as he says: every time his eyes flash or he suddenly glows with arcane power or his voice snaps with authority in the current day omniscient narrator timeline, it undermines the possibility that there could be some subversive unreliable fantasy narrator poo poo going on.
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Jul 29, 2011 20:54
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Liesmith posted:There is definitely evidence for Kvothe actually being genuinely as cool as he says: every time his eyes flash or he suddenly glows with arcane power or his voice snaps with authority in the current day omniscient narrator timeline, it undermines the possibility that there could be some subversive unreliable fantasy narrator poo poo going on. A problem I had with it was that anytime he would talk to Deanna I would get serious "Nice Guy" vibes from him. I didn't finish the second book, but from what I've seen in this thread, he eventually blows up at her (and calls her a whore or something? I could be wrong here, sorry if so). In the book, is this depicted as justified or a serious lack of character? And I like the discussion in this thread, it turned me on to Book of the New Sun and now I am going to check out Cudgel's Saga.
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Jul 29, 2011 21:04
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Well, this might just be me, but I wouldn't really have a problem with it if it turns out that Kvothe was actually very good at what he did - smart, gifted at magic, a decent musician, and all that jazz. I think it would be really unrealistic if he wasn't talented in some aspects and still had the reputation that he obviously does. But what I'm hoping could happen is that as the story draws to a close it's revealed in some way that he's either purposely exaggerating (for whatever reason), his tales of grandeur come crashing down around him as falls from grace, or it turns out some external force had been granting him much of his ability. Like I said, I'm not sure that's likely, but until the next book comes out it's at least a possibility. One that I would like.
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Jul 29, 2011 21:07
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Before you read Cugel's Saga you may want to check out the first book, The Eyes of the Overworld.
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Jul 29, 2011 21:07
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Ostiosis posted:A problem I had with it was that anytime he would talk to Deanna I would get serious "Nice Guy" vibes from him. I didn't finish the second book, but from what I've seen in this thread, he eventually blows up at her (and calls her a whore or something? I could be wrong here, sorry if so). In the book, is this depicted as justified or a serious lack of character? It's portrayed as a mistake, but if you read closely it's only a mistake because he actually reveals how he feels about her. Like, it's OK for him to be a douche who feels like he's in the friend zone, but it's not OK for him to tell her he loves her or that she has to belong to him now because he's put in the time. It would be OK if she didn't get mad, though. Basically Kvothe only ever regrets the things he says or does if they lead to him not getting what he wants.
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Jul 29, 2011 21:15
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Above Our Own posted:So you want an insular thread where nobody criticizes the book you like? Sorry, that's worthless. There's no "good" and "bad" categories of literature and it's okay to compare mediocre books with exemplary ones and discuss how it could be better or what in fact it's already doing well. My question is why the gently caress are you even comparing it to literature in the first place. Trying to compare some 3rd graders painting of a seashore with a master painter is a dumb exercise Liesmith posted:There is definitely evidence for Kvothe actually being genuinely as cool as he says: every time his eyes flash or he suddenly glows with arcane power or his voice snaps with authority in the current day omniscient narrator timeline, it undermines the possibility that there could be some subversive unreliable fantasy narrator poo poo going on. We get the sense that he's really good at magic and also probably at beating the poo poo out of guys but that's literally it. Everything else including I'm an Awesome Sex Guy could just be some 20 year old kid who got lucky making poo poo up.
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Jul 29, 2011 21:21
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Liesmith posted:Basically Kvothe only ever regrets the things he says or does if they lead to him not getting what he wants. Cugel is a complete rear end in a top hat and far more self-serving than Kvothe, and like Kvothe he rationalizes everything he does. The difference is that the author is very clear on what kind of a man Cugel is and I connect much more with the character.
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Jul 29, 2011 21:25
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Danhenge posted:My question is why the gently caress are you even comparing it to literature in the first place. Trying to compare some 3rd graders painting of a seashore with a master painter is a dumb exercise Because that third grader's painting of a seahorse has been released at a professional level, and as such, is bein compared to other professional works. If you're fine with that little seahorse, then fine. Keep looking at it, But people who look at paintings for a living will tell you that it's bad. I like these books, but I'm not gonna complain when someone knocks them down as bad literature.
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Jul 29, 2011 21:28
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I guess The Book Barn frequently makes me irritable and for once it's my own fault.
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Jul 29, 2011 21:30
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Danhenge posted:My question is why the gently caress are you even comparing it to literature in the first place. Trying to compare some 3rd graders painting of a seashore with a master painter is a dumb exercise You completely failed to grasp the context where McCarthy was mentioned and literally nobody here is saying, "Heh, Rothfuss sure sucks compared to SHAKESPEARE" so leave it alone already.
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Jul 29, 2011 21:34
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Danhenge posted:The only thing I don't understand is why people who like good literature read my lovely pulpy fantasy books, knowing full well in advance what they're getting into, and then have the gall to complain about it. Honestly. You may be joking (I can't tell sorry), but as a counterpoint I don't think everyone necessarily does know that they are getting lovely pulp fantasy. Before I read "Name of the Wind" I had heard only good things about it. In fact the main reason I read this thread was to see if anyone else had similar criticisms to me (they had). Maybe I need to scratch the surface a little more, but every other website I looked at was very complementary about Rothfuss and his work. Maybe Rothfuss isn't aiming to high (although even as pulp it isn't particularly good), but considering how much praise it gets it's not unreasonable to make some criticism and unless you're saying that the audience for fantasy is unable or unwilling to appreciate good writing I don't see why "genre writing" can't be held to the same standards as everything else.
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Jul 29, 2011 21:40
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Above Our Own posted:You completely failed to grasp the context where McCarthy was mentioned and literally nobody here is saying, "Heh, Rothfuss sure sucks compared to SHAKESPEARE" so leave it alone already. Yes I literally just admitted that
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Jul 29, 2011 21:41
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Danhenge posted:Yes I literally just admitted that
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Jul 29, 2011 21:46
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The Road is a terrible book. But this is not the place to discuss such things, this is the Patrick Rothfuss thread. Does anyone have things to discuss about Patrick Rothfuss or Patrick Rothfuss's works?
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Jul 29, 2011 21:52
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JT Jag posted:The Road is a terrible book. I don't read very often, but something about The Name of the Wind just roped me in. I really fell in love with the book once Kvothe started telling his story. While I'm certain;y not a connoisseur of books by any means, I felt that it was a story well told, and it kept me interested through the entire thing. I stayed up almost entire nights telling myself "just one more chapter". I felt It honestly got me reading again for a little while. The Wise Man's Fear, though, felt far too long, and lumbered in alot of places. It felt slow, and osmewhat disjointed. By the end of the book, I really felt that I wasn't even interested in Kvothe anymore. He just because such a weird and unappealing main character. I really can't put my finger on it, but something made me just sort of angry that he felt himself a hero one way or another, and I got sick of his odd, smug sense of righteouness and superiority. I will probably still read the 3rd book if it manages to be significantly shorter than TWMF, but after having such a great time reading the first book, I feel like this series won't be one that I remember all that fondly looking back.
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Jul 29, 2011 22:03
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I'm not ashamed to admit that I read, and re-read, The Name of the Wind three-odd times in quick succession in the month or two after I first bought it. And I've read it again a couple or so more times since (including my re-read before purchasing Wise Man's Fear). The new book, I found serviceable, but it hasn't ignited quite the same fire in me, and I haven't re-read a single page yet since finishing.
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Jul 29, 2011 22:08
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I'm on the sixteenth chapter in The Name of The Wind(I know, I probably shouldn't be here, spoilers and all) and I'm enjoying myself. Now, I don't know if that is because the last 3 books I read were super serious or if it is actually something good. I guess I will find out. I'm very interested in the chest Kote has locked up in his room. Let me guess, that's a mystery saved for the last book?
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Aug 3, 2011 09:25
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Glug_Glug posted:I'm on the sixteenth chapter in The Name of The Wind So you only have a hundred or so chapters to go!
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Aug 3, 2011 15:35
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Pretty much all of the mysteries, including the chest, have been saved for the last book. Which makes this thread relatively safe since there's nothing shocking to spoil because any plot points discussed are more the equivalent of "Luke goes to Cloud City" than "Darth Vader is Luke's father."
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Aug 3, 2011 20:46
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Ostiosis posted:A problem I had with it was that anytime he would talk to Deanna I would get serious "Nice Guy" vibes from him. I didn't finish the second book, but from what I've seen in this thread, he eventually blows up at her (and calls her a whore or something? I could be wrong here, sorry if so). In the book, is this depicted as justified or a serious lack of character?
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Aug 3, 2011 21:46
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Habibi posted:It's like Rothfuss sat down and thought, "OK, I need these characters to get from point A to point B to point C," and then wrote in the crap that gets them there without any concern for how believable the character interplay actually is. Bonus edit for more Rothfuss: Rothfuss posted:A pretty young Asian woman makes eye contact with me. She cocks her head to one side. “Are you Patrick Rothfuss?” she asks. Rothfuss posted:We sometimes can pee outside, which is cool, so long as nobody’s watching. And the bathtub is fair game too. But that’s pretty much it in terms of kosher places to pee. Although, come to think of it, the sink is also acceptable in certain rare situations Above Our Own fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Aug 3, 2011 |
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Aug 3, 2011 21:55
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Above Our Own posted:Or he is just completely clueless about normal
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Aug 3, 2011 23:50
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Above Our Own posted:Rothfuss just go ahead and tell us your username already because you are pure Goon. Hey guys ask me anything.
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Aug 5, 2011 04:22
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Ok for Doors of Stone, maybe like, some robots? Some sympathy powered robots. What do you think?
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Aug 5, 2011 04:56
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He's having an author chat for a few hours now on the Westeros boards: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/55628-qa-patrick-rothfuss-chat-thread/
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Aug 6, 2011 20:53
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Mistress Khary posted:He's having an author chat for a few hours now on the Westeros boards: In response to someone asking if the series will be longer than a trilogy: Patrick Rothfuss posted:Nope. Three books. A good story needs an ending. I'm pretty glad about that, since it (hopefully) means that he'll be wrapping the loose ends and mysteries that have been on hold since the first book.
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Aug 6, 2011 22:17
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I posted this:MarshallX posted:How do you feel about the love it/hate it praise/criticism of the Fae/Felurian chapters? Pat Rothfuss posted:I don't know much about it. I don't spend a lot of time trolling around, looking for online discussions of my work.
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Aug 6, 2011 23:48
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Wait, someone praised the Felurian chapters? You got me Pat, my juvenile perception of sex being icky is why I found something uncomfortable about Kvothe casting Level 4 erotic massage before regenerating his mana to channel lotus petals of orgasmic thrust.
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Aug 7, 2011 00:29
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You don't know anything about it, huh? But you're cool with characterizing everyone in this group you know nothing about as 12 year olds. So the enormous backlash of hate to your lovely elvin fanfiction wish-fulfillment chapters is just that the internet thinks girls are icky. Really? That's what you're going with? The internet hates sex? Do you want to give that one another shot? Also, you're a goddamn professional writer. Stop saying, "meh."
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Aug 7, 2011 00:32
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MarshallX posted:I posted this: This is the worst thing he could have written. He just doesn't understand the criticism at all, which shows he's completely clueless and Kvothe isn't this deep, lying braggart that a lot of people are hoping, but just a two-dimensional adolescent creep.
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Aug 7, 2011 13:51
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Hahaha "I don't really look for criticism" "As a writer, you get used to the fact that some people are going to hate what you write" Pat studied at the Tim Buckley school of criticism management I see.
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Aug 7, 2011 15:47
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Nemesis Of Moles posted:Hahaha "I don't really look for criticism" "As a writer, you get used to the fact that some people are going to hate what you write" Admittedly, I think his books are overhyped, but I didn't read any arrogance in his reply and I think he's actually speaking truth. Not every piece of criticism need be taken and some just can't be taken without compromising what the story is all about. A lot of people don't like the fact that Scott Lynch's books include swearing and that his characters are thieving jerkwads, either. He can't really do anything about that because the story is about thieving jerkwads and there's a lot of swearing in it. The sex is creepy and idealized, yes. It's awkward and weird and flowery, but that's kind of the point of the story. Kvothe is a goon. This is his journey. His sex is going to be awkward and flowery and poetic, because that's what sex is to him. Rothfuss can't really do anything to change that without turning Kvothe into a not-goon, which changes the story. Maybe what makes people upset is that the book does not act or treat Kvothe like a goon, which he most assuredly is (and really, that's what I feel betrays it and makes it hollower). But even though it doesn't appeal to us doesn't mean it doesn't appeal to someone. It's frequently a cop-out to suggest that the reader just doesn't "get it." The reader can often disagree with what's going on, though, and that's usually what happens. And you can't really take criticism from the internet, let alone criticism from people who disagree with the fundamental idea of the book, because then it's not really your book, but a book by committee. A committee who are interested in what appeals to you and makes you happy being totally wrong and wanting the exact opposite.
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Aug 8, 2011 01:41
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anathenema posted:Kvothe is a goon. I think the problem most people have is that Kvothe is a goon because Rothfuss is a goon. It's poor form to self-insert yourself, but it feels like that's what he's done. Since the author hasn't written any other books, we don't know if he can write any other persona, and the characters here are all viewed through a goony lens, especially the women.
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Aug 8, 2011 09:04
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Its kind of a different thing to say "I left it in because creepy sex scenes that go on for 200 pages define my story" than it is to say "I left it in cause anyone who complains is 12 year olds who think girls are icky" No one is criticising the inclusion of sex per-say, no one is saying every book is to be a sterile pulp with no growing or emotion, I'm sure there's hundreds of writers who could have handled those scenes much better. But Rothfuss didn't handle it well, its not written creepy and weird because thats it has to be, it was written creepy and weird because (until evidence to the contrary shows) thats the only way he can write. I get that you cant just listen to every bit of critic that comes your way, thats fair enough, obviously "YOU SUCK AND YOUR BOOK SUCKS" isn't going to help you, nor is "WHY ISN'T KVOTHE IN SAPCE FIGHTING MARTIANS?! WRITE THAT!!!" but you can't seriously argue that "hey maybe he shouldn't have street fighter moves for sex?" isn't a totally fair critic or that it'd break the story at all. Ignoring the fact that a good lot of readers didn't like how Kvothe learns Dragon Ball Z moves with a sex nymph for a year is one thing, outright insulting anyone who thought it was a terrible part of the book is another. I know this rant seems a little Nerd Entitlement but I really don't mean to imply that SomethingAwful.com should have any real say in what an author writes, or how he writes it indeed. However, that said, there are much better ways of saying "Screw you guys I give no fucks" than saying we're all children for not liking it.
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Aug 8, 2011 13:17
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