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Queej posted:*Ser Barristan - Is he the new Ned Stark? Ned seemed to be the last good man. He was honorable and self-less in an honor-less and selfish time. Will these qualities be Barristan's fall? I think this is an interesting parallel. Both are nearly completely honorable men who managed to survive and even prosper by staying the gently caress out of drama and politics. But finally honor ended up driving both of them into the midst of it. I hope it turns out better for Barristan.
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Aug 5, 2011 17:22
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oogyboogs posted:Well, in the AFFC chapter called The Reaver, Victarion and Euron are talking in that room and Euron says: That's very interesting. I feel Euron is the most mysterious important character at this point, now that Melisandre is explained. I've had a suspicion that wargs and possibly other sorcerer-types become more powerful after sacrificing something, such as Bloodraven's eye and Bran's legs. As far as I'm concerned the mystery I'm most interested in is what's up with this "smiling eye" business. He has surrounded himself with sorcery.
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Aug 5, 2011 17:25
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Making Bloodraven important is kind of obnoxious for the 90% of us who haven't read the short stories. Making him more important would be even more obnoxious. His role is fine now, but it shouldn't be expanded. If it is, he becomes a guy we hadn't heard about at all until the 5th book who is suddenly a major player, and I feel like we're expected to know who he is despite him being an entirely side story character.
HeroOfTheRevolution fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Aug 5, 2011 |
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Aug 5, 2011 17:29
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oogyboogs posted:Well, in the AFFC chapter called The Reaver, Victarion and Euron are talking in that room and Euron says: Have we ever seen what's behind Euron's eyepatch? I had a crazy thought that he's got some weirwood growing out of the hollow eyesocket, just like Bloodraven. That gives him a constant connection to the Old God Superhighway, which is quite useful for a pirate.
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Aug 5, 2011 17:29
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:Making Bloodraven important is kind of obnoxious for the 90% of us who haven't read the short stories. Making him more important would be even more obnoxious. His role is fine now, but it shouldn't be expanded. If it is, he becomes a guy we hadn't heard about at all until the 5th book who is suddenly a major player. You mean like Aegon?
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Aug 5, 2011 17:31
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I read the short stories because of Bloodraven and they're actually pretty good.
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Aug 5, 2011 17:32
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whowhatwhere posted:You mean like Aegon? Aegon might not even be Aegon, and nor was he a character in side stories. His entire arc is self-contained within the ASoIaF. Bloodraven is definitely Bloodraven, but I don't care to read a bunch of graphic novels to understand the main plot either.
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Aug 5, 2011 17:32
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While there are now some comics, they started off as actual short stories, and as Brannock said, they're quite good. It seems that when GRRM is constrained on length, he writes much tighter stories. I'd say they'd even be worth reading if they weren't connected to the main series.
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Aug 5, 2011 17:56
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Calef posted:That's very interesting. I feel Euron is the most mysterious important character at this point, now that Melisandre is explained. I've had a suspicion that wargs and possibly other sorcerer-types become more powerful after sacrificing something, such as Bloodraven's eye and Bran's legs. As far as I'm concerned the mystery I'm most interested in is what's up with this "smiling eye" business. He has surrounded himself with sorcery. Yeah, in AFFC it says that magic is fueled by blood, which makes sense in the context of the whole series. But then, the only way to gain magic is to sacrifice and kill more people. I think the the Doom of Valyria is related to that. I think that's why the maesters are anti- magic. It doesn't fit in with their world of power through technology and education. Maraak posted:Have we ever seen what's behind Euron's eyepatch? I had a crazy thought that he's got some weirwood growing out of the hollow eyesocket, just like Bloodraven. That gives him a constant connection to the Old God Superhighway, which is quite useful for a pirate. They never showed it or even hinted to it. I think that he's got something sick under there though. oogyboogs fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Aug 5, 2011 |
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Aug 5, 2011 18:01
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kanonvandekempen posted:Tyrion being the administrator of the royal drains is an official title of Edmund the Black Adder in the first season (this one is probably a little far fetched, although there are some similarities in how the two characters are treated by their fathers. Edmund also kills his father.) The drains is a double reference. Miles Vorkosigan got assigned to clear a base's drains as a punishment detail in... The Vor Game. Miles is, like Tyrion, born effectively a dwarf. Miles' damage wasn't genetic, rather a result of prenatal exposure to a military poison.
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Aug 5, 2011 18:31
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whowhatwhere posted:^^^^^ It is a matter of interpretation. A more "innocent" interpretation could be that she stays up all night staring into the fires looking for news or signs of Stannis' campaign rather than sleeping. However, as you said it was more than strongly suggested that they slept together in order to create the shadow that killed Renly.
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Aug 5, 2011 18:36
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:Making Bloodraven important is kind of obnoxious for the 90% of us who haven't read the short stories. Making him more important would be even more obnoxious. His role is fine now, but it shouldn't be expanded. If it is, he becomes a guy we hadn't heard about at all until the 5th book who is suddenly a major player, and I feel like we're expected to know who he is despite him being an entirely side story character. Not only will you learn more about this Bloodraven fellow, they're actually good stories. They're everything the last two books haven't been. Concisely written tales with a beginning, middle and end.
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Aug 5, 2011 19:18
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Thoguh posted:I think that's what GRRM was going for though. We all wished the worst on Theon after what he did in the earlier books. But then the worst actually happened, and its creepy as gently caress and makes us question the hatred we held for him after what he did to Winterfell. He betrays the northmen, kills civilians and children, betrays the ironborn at Moat Cailin, kills innocent children and helps Ramsay in his rape of Jeyne all because he's a spineless, jealous, worthless human being. gently caress Theon.
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Aug 5, 2011 19:23
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REEK IT RHYMES WITH FREAK
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Aug 5, 2011 19:32
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Unoriginal Name posted:He betrays the northmen, kills civilians and children, betrays the ironborn at Moat Cailin, kills innocent children and helps Ramsay in his rape of Jeyne all because he's a spineless, jealous, worthless human being. I think there's a position where you can acknowledge that Theon is scummy without saying he deserves the Dreadfort. poo poo, no one deserves the Dreadfort. Flaying is not justice.
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Aug 5, 2011 20:23
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Caufman posted:I think there's a position where you can acknowledge that Theon is scummy without saying he deserves the Dreadfort. poo poo, no one deserves the Dreadfort. Flaying is not justice. I can also take the position that fleeing with a rescued hostage from within a surrounded castle does not redeem him as a character.
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Aug 5, 2011 20:28
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Unoriginal Name posted:I can also take the position that fleeing with a rescued hostage from within a surrounded castle does not redeem him as a character. No, it doesn't, since it's fault poo poo ended up like that in the first place. Though you have to wonder what would have happened to Bran or Rickon had Theon not sent them off.
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Aug 5, 2011 20:36
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mllaneza posted:The drains is a double reference. Miles Vorkosigan got assigned to clear a base's drains as a punishment detail in... The Vor Game. Miles is, like Tyrion, born effectively a dwarf. Miles' damage wasn't genetic, rather a result of prenatal exposure to a military poison. Tyrion is, basically, Miles with lovely parents (well, a lovely parent) instead of good ones. Which is why he's both awesome and scary.
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Aug 5, 2011 21:06
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Mr.Brinks posted:Though you have to wonder what would have happened to Bran or Rickon had Theon not sent them off. Ramsay would have gotten them which would have been good times for all involved, surely.
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Aug 5, 2011 21:32
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You can't blame Theon for obeying Ramsay now though. He's been mentally and physically broken and I'm pretty sure anyone would do the same in his position now.
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Aug 5, 2011 21:42
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Yeah, after being so thoroughly broken to Ramsay's will I think he gets a pass. I also don't think it's very fair to call him a turncloak. He was hostage to his father's good behaviour then when that father rebelled he went along with it. Is he supposed to fight against his family and people? Wouldn't that be worse? His real contemptible weakness showed itself in trying to hold Winterfell and the child killing that arose from that. whowhatwhere posted:Could you elaborate on that one? I've never heard about any connection between the two before. oogyboogs posted:Well, in the AFFC chapter called The Reaver, Victarion and Euron are talking in that room and Euron says: Spergchat: America doesn't use/considers archaic the word fortnight? Who knew
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Aug 5, 2011 22:44
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Mr.Brinks posted:REEK IT RHYMES WITH FREAK Reek, it rhymes with FORT FREAK: A WILD CARDStm "NOVEL" (Edited by George R.R. Martin)
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Aug 5, 2011 22:51
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ThaGhettoJew posted:Reek, it rhymes with FORT FREAK: A WILD CARDStm "NOVEL" (Edited by George R.R. Martin) Beat me to it, rear end in a top hat. I'm not sure that Theon's childkilling is even looked down upon at all un the books, lords get away with that poo poo all the time and nobody gives a gently caress. At least Roose "Michael" Bolton doesn't.
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Aug 5, 2011 23:05
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Yeah, the problem people have with it in the books is that they think it was Bran and Rickon Stark, rather than "two random children he killed to keep himself from looking foolish".
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Aug 5, 2011 23:26
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Yeah, who remembers when Cersei, Robert, Tywin, Jamie, Stannis, Melisandre, Littlefinger, Victarion and possibly Manderly killed, ordered killed, tried to kill, or advocated killing children? E: Also ~Darkstar~!
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Aug 5, 2011 23:30
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The first thing Ned does is execute a terrified dehydrated dude. Jon beheads a guy partially out of revenge and partially to make a point. Barristan breaks into a king's chambers and murders the king's personal guard who was just trying to do his job. Tyrion strangles a hooker for telling lies which did not actually put him any worse off than he already was. Bran mindrapes a mentally handicapped man. Arya murders several people on loose pretenses. There are no good guys in this book series. I think discussions about whether Theon can be redeemed are based on a false premise, namely that the author and/or the universe thinks redemption is a meaningful concept. Likewise the question of whether he deserves what he got. No one deserves what Theon got. No character in this story has deserved anything that has happened to them. The universe isn't fair. At least the real world is just ambivalent, this book features a universe where a man is rewarded by divinity for burning alive a boatful of little girls. Recall what everyone in the TV thread was expecting to happen right up until around episode 8. Ned is gonna take the black and go join Jon on the wall for some ranger adventures! Robb is gonna capture King's Landing! Predictions which probably would have been borne out in any other fantasy series. Who among us predicted that Jon would be assassinated by the Watch in this book? Why do we assume that the "obvious" course of events will follow from this, when the very reason we (secretly) like GURM is that the obvious thing never happens? I guess I'm weird because I'm similarly annoyed by complaints that Sansa is stupid. She's a fictional character. She's exactly what she needs to be. Make her anything but naive and stupid at the beginning and there's nowhere to grow. If she is protected from the consequences of her actions, there is no drama. Do we want this to be The Sword of Truth?
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Aug 5, 2011 23:44
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Actually I'm pretty sure that Cercei got exactly what she deserved.
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Aug 6, 2011 00:14
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Same with Joffrey. What positive thing has that loving brat ever done?
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Aug 6, 2011 00:38
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Joffrey cut up a book and threw the pieces at Tyrion which is what everyone should have done to gurm with their copies of Dance.quote:Indeed, all Joffrey's courtesy vanished at once when Tyrion presented him with their own gift: a huge old book called A Dance With Dragons, bound in leather and gorgeously illuminated. The king leafed through it with no interest. "And what is this, Uncle?" FormerPoster fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Aug 6, 2011 |
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Aug 6, 2011 00:44
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Did you just search and replace A Feast For Crows with A Dance With Dragons from the Bad Thread, or is that All New and Original HumorTM?
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Aug 6, 2011 01:14
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hampig posted:Did you just search and replace A Feast For Crows with A Dance With Dragons from the Bad Thread, or is that All New and Original HumorTM? Haha did someone post that for Feast in the bad thread too? No it's as original as stealing lines from the book and dubbing in lines about another book can get.
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Aug 6, 2011 01:15
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Calef posted:The first thing Ned does is execute a terrified dehydrated dude. These are pretty weak examples. Everything we know about Ned and Barristan says that they are good guys. I mean if you consider any killing at all to be equivalent to a "bad guy", then your real gripe is with the medieval fantasy setting more than the characters. Also even by that standard, there are still some paragons that pass the test, though granted, they're minor characters. Old Nan never hurt anyone 
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Aug 6, 2011 01:17
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With this series I honestly feel like you can not predict anything. Maybe nothing in the series will be resolved and the lesson of the books are “life is chaos…don’t expect much cause you’ll just get raped anyway.” I feel like the whole story is centered on Dany. She is supposed to conquer the Seven Kingdoms so they can be reunited with their heir. My problem – who will inherit? She can’t have kids, so when she dies, the Seven Kingdoms will be back where they are now. The appearance of Aegon is just too convenient. Perhaps Dany will rule but Aegon's kids will inherit? Who knows? Another thing… I want a clue of who the dragon riders will be. I feel so teased on the issue and I feel like the result will probably be disappointing. Back in CoK…Martin dropped hints that perhaps Jon might be a dragon rider. I got this from when Dany was in Qarth, she saw the “blue flower on the wall”….meaning Jon is Lyanna’s (and probably Rhaegars). – so why write that in when Martin makes it so nothing can come of it? I hope that the two dragon riders are not some bullshit people that no one cares about. I love the books, but drat it, I would be more shocked if he wrote what was expected and the book had the typical happy ending as opposed to the  it is now. Heh - watch this series turn into the book version of "LOST".
MondoMedicale fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Aug 6, 2011 |
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Aug 6, 2011 01:20
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lapse posted:
That old hag tried to scare Bran, that bitch. This series is filled with terrible people. We root for some and hate others, yet their actions are not so different. Except for the darkest of stars Ser Gerold Dayne, the Sword of the Twilight and a paragon of justice.
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Aug 6, 2011 01:30
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furushotakeru posted:Actually I'm pretty sure that Cercei got exactly what she deserved. Does anyone really deserve saggy tits?
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Aug 6, 2011 02:23
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Argali posted:Does anyone really deserve saggy tits? GRRM does.
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Aug 6, 2011 02:33
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The way I really see this series is that it seems like it's pulling a "The Wire". In that in the end there will be resolution, but it'll be another state of parity, rather than things coming together neatly and there being anything like the completion of a heroes' journeys or the realm being safe or good winning over the others etc. It'll just be like: Here's some people you liked and they ended up doing okay Here's some people you hated and they ended up doing okay Here's some people you liked who ended up getting hosed over Here's some people you hated who ended up getting hosed over There's no justice There's no karma There's no resolution The world just goes on
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Aug 6, 2011 02:38
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xamphear posted:It sounds like you're upset that some other readers know more about a character than you do. There's a really quick and easy way to fix that: Go read the short stories. Really though; the Dunk and Egg tales are 100% canon and are meant to both explore outside the main ASOIAF storyline but also supplement it. Read them- like others have said, they're good! I also have a feeling that the fate of Duncan and Aegon is going to come up later in the series.
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Aug 6, 2011 03:10
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He's gotta have some sort of real conclusion the the Others storyline, though. That is the big supernatural threat in this series, set up in the prologue of the very first book.
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Aug 6, 2011 03:18
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Rootbeer Baron posted:Joffrey cut up a book and threw the pieces at Tyrion which is what everyone should have done to gurm with their copies of Dance. Man, these jokes are getting so very old. Even if I disliked the book, it's so big that it can be used as a weapon. And that's a use GRRM never intended.
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Aug 6, 2011 03:23
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