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Saying the language used in a fantasy novel that contains dragons, and magic is unrealistic makes absofuckinglutely no sense.
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Aug 7, 2011 00:30
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Mr.Brinks posted:Saying the language used in a fantasy novel that contains dragons, and magic is unrealistic makes absofuckinglutely no sense. Your reasoning leads to "well it's fantasy so the writing doesn't have to be good" which is sadly what a lot of people think.
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Aug 7, 2011 01:24
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A Typical Goon posted:I think I might be the only one that likes the Aegon plot. I suspect it has something to do with the fact that I'm anticipating a huge battle to come from it. I want to see the Golden Company plus Dorne fighting the Lannisters and Tyrells or something. The Aegon/Connington plot is fantastic. "Hey Aegon, you should go this place and do this thing." "Okay." It's great to see a character get from point A to point B without kidnapping, pirates, bandits, warfare or other diversions, and to make a life-altering, proactive decision without worrying about it for 3 months and 200 pages. Connington's reaction to Aegon's sudden change of plans is similarly awesome: "Hmm, maybe this isn't a good idea...but gently caress it, all men must die." How many of the other remaining PoV characters would go along with such a risky scheme without a ton of italicised stressing and doubting and misliking? Even then I assumed something would go wrong, as always happens when anyone makes a journey of more than 2 miles in this world, but no, The Golden Company just show up in Westeros and start taking castles like it's no big thing. It's probably only because Grrm didn't want to waste too much time on something boring like a Targ prince landing in Westeros at the head of an army - not when he had dwarf-jousting to write about. But still it's a very nice change of pace. SharpyShuffle fucked around with this message at 02:32 on Aug 7, 2011 |
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Aug 7, 2011 02:29
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He learned his lesson with the Mer knot.
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Aug 7, 2011 03:18
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Adama posted:Both the posters you quoted have explained that they both know that the words exist and know their meaning... they aren't complaining that Martin is using words that they don't understand. Might as well not even write a fantasy novel at all if you don't want to insert British influence into it.
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Aug 7, 2011 03:20
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The Golden Company was founded by Bittersteel, one of Aegon IV's bastards, right? And him and Bloodraven hated each other. (Their mothers were a Blackwood and a Bracken, the two feuding houses in the Riverlands, they took opposite sides in the Blackfyre Rebellion, Bittersteel put out Bloodraven's eye) And now Bloodraven is back in the same book that has Bittersteel's sellsword company returning to Westeros. I'm guessing that Bittersteel's forces versus Bloodraven's (the Night's Watch or the Others or whatever) will be one of the final conflicts of the series. I mean, it would, if the series ever gets finished.
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Aug 7, 2011 03:48
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Is it bad that I have NO loving IDEA who Bloodraven is?
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Aug 7, 2011 03:59
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In as much as it means you haven't bothered to read even the last few pages of the thread, yes. Yes it is.
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Aug 7, 2011 04:08
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Quantify! posted:Is it bad that I have NO loving IDEA who Bloodraven is? http://iceandfire.wikia.com/wiki/Bloodraven As people were saying earlier, he's more prominent in the Dunk & Egg stories. Also, I forgot to add in my previous post that the two swords that came over with Aegon the Conqueror ended up with those two; Bittersteel took Blackfyre with him after the end of the Blackfyre Rebellion and Bloodraven was the last known owner of Dark Sister. (Although I might be mistaken about that last one.)
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Aug 7, 2011 04:15
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I'm not suggesting that Martin isn't good at what he's doing- entertaining- but things stick out while reading. I agree that his writing is very consistent on a novel-to-novel basis.quote:Your post is entirely wrong. It's quite magical. The "no-thing" part is quite accurate, aside from your disagreeing with my opinion and calling it wrong.
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Aug 7, 2011 04:19
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The medieval term for "oval office" would be "oval office". That there were other words for it doesn't mean that Martin using the actual word "oval office" instead of an Elizabethan slang word suddenly makes it anachronistic within the setting he has created, which is what you were arguing. I assume your problem with "oval office" & "poo poo" would also extend to "gently caress" ? Lovely Joe Stalin fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Aug 7, 2011 |
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Aug 7, 2011 04:40
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Rapey Joe Stalin posted:I assume your problem with "oval office" & "poo poo" would also extend to "gently caress" ? A lot of the issues that most people have with Martin's writing is that they're complete prudes - that is to say, they can't handle sex or sexuality at all. Gory as gently caress violence with guts spilling out everywhere and brains splattered all over the walls? No problem. Sex? YOU PEDOPHILE PERVERT!! Honestly I can't really take most people seriously when they complain about the diction in ASOIAF. They invariably sound like they're trying to find something to nitpick about.
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Aug 7, 2011 05:39
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Stopgap posted:The Golden Company was founded by Bittersteel, one of Aegon IV's bastards, right? And him and Bloodraven hated each other. (Their mothers were a Blackwood and a Bracken, the two feuding houses in the Riverlands, they took opposite sides in the Blackfyre Rebellion, Bittersteel put out Bloodraven's eye) And now Bloodraven is back in the same book that has Bittersteel's sellsword company returning to Westeros. I'm guessing that Bittersteel's forces versus Bloodraven's (the Night's Watch or the Others or whatever) will be one of the final conflicts of the series. I mean, it would, if the series ever gets finished.
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Aug 7, 2011 05:52
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I think the correct resolution to this inane argument is to say "gently caress all words" and move on.
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Aug 7, 2011 06:00
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Iggles posted:I'd think that after spending 100 years as a tree he wouldn't have to feud against the distant (possible) descendant of some guy he didn't like
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Aug 7, 2011 06:09
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Iggles posted:I'd think that after spending 100 years as a tree he wouldn't have to feud against the distant (possible) descendant of some guy he didn't like
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Aug 7, 2011 06:10
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Oh, I don't mean that it's literally going to be like "Wait, Bittersteel's great-great-great-great-grandson is back? gently caress YES IT'S ON NOW!" or that there's going to be a Bran-with-Dark-Sister versus Aegon-with-Blackfyre duel. I just mean in a thematic sense; Bloodraven's heir/heirs (literally or otherwise) versus Bittersteel's heir/heirs (literal or otherwise), whether they know about the previous conflict between brothers or not.
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Aug 7, 2011 06:18
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I kind of doubt Martin really cares that much about it. I mean he throws all this backstory in because it enriches the universe but that doesn't mean everything will have a big payoff.
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Aug 7, 2011 06:21
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Bloodraven was transformed into this near-omnipotent god, I bet his past life grudges disappeared the moment he was turned into a tree.
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Aug 7, 2011 06:51
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Azure_Horizon posted:Might as well not even write a fantasy novel at all if you don't want to insert British influence into it. I think the problem with 'whilst' specifically is that, in America, it tends to mostly be used by the same sorts of greasy nerds who wear fedoras, for the same reason. They think it makes them seem classy, so they pick it up as a painstakingly deliberate affectation. Obviously in the UK that's not the case, but as an American, whenever I see 'whilst' I think 'sweaty Renfaire attendee'.
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Aug 7, 2011 07:13
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Roark posted:Yeah. And the "historical" (in-world) Dance of the Dragons is pretty overtly The Anarchy, to go along with the whole Targs as the Normans/Angevins thing.
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Aug 7, 2011 07:30
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Stopgap posted:Oh, I don't mean that it's literally going to be like "Wait, Bittersteel's great-great-great-great-grandson is back? gently caress YES IT'S ON NOW!" or that there's going to be a Bran-with-Dark-Sister versus Aegon-with-Blackfyre duel. I just mean in a thematic sense; Bloodraven's heir/heirs (literally or otherwise) versus Bittersteel's heir/heirs (literal or otherwise), whether they know about the previous conflict between brothers or not.
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Aug 7, 2011 08:13
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Mr.Brinks posted:Bloodraven was transformed into this near-omnipotent god, I bet his past life grudges disappeared the moment he was turned into a tree. Gods can be selfish jerks. Haven't you read read any of the old testament?
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Aug 7, 2011 08:25
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Iggles posted:I'd think that after spending 100 years as a tree he wouldn't have to feud against the distant (possible) descendant of some guy he didn't like Plus if Aegon is really Aegon (which I to be honest, doubt), he's the descendant of Daeron (the good), Bloodraven's brother who he loved.
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Aug 7, 2011 09:02
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Mr.Brinks posted:Bloodraven was transformed into this near-omnipotent god, I bet his past life grudges disappeared the moment he was turned into a tree. Omnipotent? He's not even omniscient (owing to a lack of weirwoods with faces), and his power to actually effect actions is dubious.
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Aug 7, 2011 10:10
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Neurosis posted:Omnipotent? He's not even omniscient (owing to a lack of weirwoods with faces), and his power to actually effect actions is dubious. He indeed hardly has any powers to actually do anything. In fact, the only thing he has done is summon Bran to him via his dreams. I think he is still fairly omniscient, and I think he does it via Raventree. Remember, Bloodraven was a bastard from a Blackwood: the residents of Raventree. I think the ravens of Raventree everyday go out "scouting" and return in the evening to tell the news to the (dead) weirwood and thus to Bloodraven. The Jaime chapter in ADWD has a great connection with the Dunk & Egg stories.
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Aug 7, 2011 12:45
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showbiz_liz posted:I think the problem with 'whilst' specifically is that, in America, it tends to mostly be used by the same sorts of greasy nerds who wear fedoras, for the same reason. They think it makes them seem classy, so they pick it up as a painstakingly deliberate affectation. Obviously in the UK that's not the case, but as an American, whenever I see 'whilst' I think 'sweaty Renfaire attendee'. Yeah this exactly, I just think it's a stupid sounding word. He's got quite a few words that break up the flow for me and this was the worst for ADwD. It reminds me of bad poetry and dorks with foam rubber swords sweating in the park. Some of you are taking this discussion waaaaay too loving seriously. It was a word that stuck out to me but I don't think he's a bad writer and I'm not shocked others don't have a problem with it.
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Aug 7, 2011 14:26
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Brannock posted:A lot of the issues that most people have with Martin's writing is that they're complete prudes - that is to say, they can't handle sex or sexuality at all. Gory as gently caress violence with guts spilling out everywhere and brains splattered all over the walls? No problem. Sex? YOU PEDOPHILE PERVERT!! I think GRRM's largest audience is America, and we as a country are just loving retarded about sex. It pervades our culture down to its very bones and yet we can't talk about it openly without some nutjob faction of our society going crazy about it. What's funny about A Song of Ice and Fire is that the sex is fairly vanilla stuff. Anyone ever read Gary Jenning's classic historical novel Aztec, from 1980? That has lesbian rape, gang rape, incest, and some of the most brutal violence I've ever encountered outside of a Peter Sotos book. And yet Aztec was a bestseller and I think the sex/violence actually added to the story.
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Aug 7, 2011 14:30
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Maytag posted:Yeah this exactly, I just think it's a stupid sounding word. He's got quite a few words that break up the flow for me and this was the worst for ADwD. It reminds me of bad poetry and dorks with foam rubber swords sweating in the park. Argali posted:Anyone ever read Gary Jenning's classic historical novel Aztec, from 1980? That has lesbian rape, gang rape, incest, and some of the most brutal violence I've ever encountered
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Aug 7, 2011 18:18
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DarkCrawler posted:Plus if Aegon is really Aegon (which I to be honest, doubt), he's the descendant of Daeron (the good), Bloodraven's brother who he loved.
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Aug 7, 2011 18:36
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Quantify! posted:Thanks for the recommendation! In all seriousness, it's a great book. Never read the sequels though. His book Raptor was pretty weird - the main character is a hermaphrodite - and I only got halfway through it.
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Aug 7, 2011 19:14
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So what's the theory on Bloodraven, anyway? Normally he would have died about 100 years ago, right? Who does he serve, what is he doing, etc.?
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Aug 7, 2011 19:19
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Argali posted:So what's the theory on Bloodraven, anyway? Normally he would have died about 100 years ago, right? Who does he serve, what is he doing, etc.? It throws an interesting wrench into the whole religion story, because the main thing about the Others is that they bring back the dead. But apparently the green and red gods can do this too. And according to Melisandre there's only TWO gods - the good one and the bad one. Then there's the song of ice and fire which seems to leave no room for a song of trees. Who Arya is serving is another matter. Melisandre often mentions "serving death", and the House of Black and White pretty much does this. Is she mistakenly serving the bad guys? But then they seem to be opposed to the Maesters who are opposed to the dragons which are probably going to fight the Others so they must be good, right? No wonder it takes Martin years to write this stuff it must've taken years to just figure out what side everyone was on.
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Aug 7, 2011 19:28
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Am I the only one who thinks that trying to sort the various people and factions and religions into neat sets of "good" and "evil" is missing the point? The reason it's not building toward a Tolkienesque final showdown of good and evil might be because there is no showdown of good and evil because there are no good and evil. One of the main themes all through since AGoT has been that nothing is black and white and that trying to draw lines and section things out into good and evil doesn't work, so to me it makes perfect sense that the characters themselves are frequently wrong about things, that the religion and ideology of various characters and factions don't fit tightly together (there's overlap, there's conflict, etc.), and that it's very unclear how exactly things will (or even should) shake out.
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Aug 7, 2011 20:04
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hailthefish posted:Am I the only one who thinks that trying to sort the various people and factions and religions into neat sets of "good" and "evil" is missing the point?
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Aug 7, 2011 21:00
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Quantify! posted:No but it's going to come down to good vs. evil so I wonder what side everyone will fall on. No, that's what he was saying, it might not come down to good vs. evil.
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Aug 7, 2011 21:05
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Jakabite posted:No, that's what he was saying, it might not come down to good vs. evil.
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Aug 7, 2011 21:07
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I doubt he'll make the Others "sympathetic" but it could happen. More likely it's a choice between a handful of evils, or evil and good-but-with-horrifying-unintended-consequences, or maybe the Others aren't evil at all but are just trying to protect the old gods of the North and the Children of the Forest? What if the Children of the Forest are really terrifyingly evil and Bran has to choose between two horrible options?
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Aug 7, 2011 21:15
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hailthefish posted:I doubt he'll make the Others "sympathetic" but it could happen. More likely it's a choice between a handful of evils, or evil and good-but-with-horrifying-unintended-consequences, or maybe the Others aren't evil at all but are just trying to protect the old gods of the North and the Children of the Forest? What if the Children of the Forest are really terrifyingly evil and Bran has to choose between two horrible options? So long as he doesn't spend 600 pages in Mereen pondering what decision he's going to make, such a thing could be interesting.
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Aug 7, 2011 21:36
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I just finished reading the book and one thing kind of stuck in my craw a little -- sorry if it's been discussed already but the thread is so long that I can't really sift through it to see. So, Stannis rallies about 3,000 guys from the mountain clans to his cause before marching south to take on the Boltons. Where were these guys during the whole war of the five kings? If they're willing to rally to Stannis to go "rescue Ned's daughter" then surely they would have joined up with Robb's main force when Ned himself was taken captive? Or later on, when the Ironmen took the North, it never occurred to Robb to try to get those guys to retake Moat Cailin (from the north, which is apparently way easier than from the south)? Maybe I missed some explanation along the way but it just seems kind of contrived to me that as soon as Stannis needs soldiers, Jon is like "oh hey, here are a bunch of guys in the woods and mountains who somehow haven't been part of the action so far, they'll help you."
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Aug 7, 2011 21:39
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