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Tempest_56 posted:And later joined one.  -est one.
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Aug 11, 2011 01:43
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| # ? May 11, 2024 11:09 |
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Finally got caught up on this thread after a week, and honestly, I think I've noticed a couple of problems with the scenarios: These last two battles in particular were probably tough but winnable for a reasonably experienced and coordinated group of players. Okay, so the Elementals were a proper  experience, as they should have been, but I think everyone's realized by now that there will *always* be a nasty surprise or two. It's all good, and I think PTN has done an outstanding job of basically being the DM for a PbP BattleTech game.The problem with this is that the players are goons. Some are experienced, many are not. There is some tactical advice from the peanut gallery, but the closest thing the players have had to tactical coordination has been the "Shoot the Gaussback!" chanting. Trying to coordinate the goons in this format, where it's not an explicit "if you want to play, be in this IRC channel at this specific time to talk tactics so we can get our poo poo together" seems to be a lost cause. True, this has lead to amusing moments like the "Can't sleep, <REDACTED> will eat me." - "C'mon, how bad could it be?" - "Oh God, MY FACE!" banter, but I think we're running up against the practical limit of what the goon pick-up group can handle, if we haven't passed it already. I respectfully suggest that either a dedicated effort is made to coordinate the goonlance better, or PTN ease off the difficulty a bit. Watching goons go like lambs to the slaughter can be entertaining, but I think everyone will enjoy it more if it's not quite as merciless.
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Aug 11, 2011 17:13
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Cythereal posted:Finally got caught up on this thread after a week, and honestly, I think I've noticed a couple of problems with the scenarios: Counterpoint: Cardassian.
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Aug 11, 2011 17:15
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You do realize that the goon side is poised to actually WIN this scenario right?
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Aug 11, 2011 17:21
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DatonKallandor posted:You do realize that the goon side is poised to actually WIN this scenario right? Uh, no. The impression I had is that the goonlance was on the ropes.
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Aug 11, 2011 17:23
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Not really - both sides have headcap potential left, but in terms of firepower and armor, Goonlance is clearly ahead.
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Aug 11, 2011 17:47
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Really I've equated Goonlance vs. Clans in these scenarios to fighting the aliens in the early stages of X-Com. The odds are stacked against you tech-wise, odds are you will lose. But you start to get better, get things closer, and even get close to winning. We've already had what amounts to a Crhyssalid moment in the Elementals, but now we're at the point where we're almost on even footing tech-wise with the Clans and while it's still a horrible slog I really think Goonlance can win this one, and even if they don't the Clans are going to earn this victory in blood.
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Aug 11, 2011 17:54
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I'm pretty sure we're gonna pull out a win this time, barring more reinforcements on their part. My Flashman might even survive the battle!
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Aug 11, 2011 17:56
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The ComGuard are absolutely dominating this battle. The Clans only have 2 mechs that are fully combat effective and one of those is a 40 tonner. The ComGuard mechs are pretty trashed, but 5 of them are still nearly fully effective. Not to mention the King Crab has barely been touched.
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Aug 11, 2011 18:16
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KnoxZone posted:The ComGuard are absolutely dominating this battle. The Clans only have 2 mechs that are fully combat effective and one of those is a 40 tonner. The ComGuard mechs are pretty trashed, but 5 of them are still nearly fully effective. Not to mention the King Crab has barely been touched. Yeah, the King Crab being in the fight pretty much changes the motherfucking game. As long as its firing we can win this in one turn if the dice goes right, which can maybe happen with the Kraken, but it's mathematically far more impossible.
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Aug 11, 2011 20:59
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Defiance Industries posted:Yeah, the King Crab being in the fight pretty much changes the motherfucking game. As long as its firing we can win this in one turn if the dice goes right, which can maybe happen with the Kraken, but it's mathematically far more impossible. Now you've said it. The King Crab's gonna fail a PSR, fall, land on it's gauss cannon and explode into a rain of crabsticks. Edit: For inexplicable carriage return.
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Aug 11, 2011 22:17
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Basically, without any bullshit rolls by the Clanners we should be fine. But wait! This is Battletech. Bullshit rolls are the name of the game. The King Crab, for instance, is looking pretty solid. However, if the King Crab takes one or two more hits to the head (even from an AC2), the pilot runs the very real risk of falling unconscious. The Bane has between 10 and 20 shots it can land on our Assault Mech with pinpoint accuracy thanks to the godlike stats of that Star Colonel. Fingers crossed.
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Aug 11, 2011 22:42
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Chicken Slayer posted:Basically, without any bullshit rolls by the Clanners we should be fine. Don't forget that one more hit to my Black Knight's head from just about anything will probably kill me.
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Aug 11, 2011 23:28
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Gothsheep posted:Don't forget that one more hit to my Black Knight's head from just about anything will probably kill me. Assuming he knows that and will fire on you, I might just say "gently caress it" as regards heat management this turn.
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Aug 11, 2011 23:30
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Defiance Industries posted:Assuming he knows that and will fire on you, I might just say "gently caress it" as regards heat management this turn. Just don't spike up the heat such that "probably kill" becomes "definitely kill".
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Aug 12, 2011 00:39
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You should be fine: at the end of the day, the Bane is more worried about the King Crab which can take it out from 14+ hexes away than the slow Black Knight with short ranged guns which pretty much does not die unless you headshot it with a high-calibre weapon. You'll probably have enough time to curb stomp that Quad with another barrage of holy fire, then kick it whilst it's down for good measure. Again, don't fire the PPC and save it for next turn. Plus, Clanners rarely split fire. Goes against Zell after all, so they're generally not used to it.
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Aug 12, 2011 00:39
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They've already stated that the Comguard mechs aren't worth following Zell for.
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Aug 12, 2011 01:11
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There's a fine line, balancing these things. On the one hand, I truly hate the extra time and effort required for every turn where I have initiative. On the other hand, losing initiative all the time is actually a truly bad thing and means the enemy forces almost have to be superior if the scenario is to present any sort of interesting challenge. In short: Yes, my scenarios are unbalanced; but please consider this: The closest I've come to a 1:1 balanced engagement was the first mission; and goons beat that in ten turns. 'Unbalanced' does not equate with 'unwinnable.' The Clanners are far more wounded then all the doomsayers seem to realize; and the ComGuards went into this fight with a pretty hefty firepower advantage.
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Aug 12, 2011 02:34
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Some coordination wouldnt't hurt, if only to keep friendlies from fighting over hexes in the movement phase.
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Aug 12, 2011 02:42
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Also the advantage to the comguards increases if poptarts fixes the hit rolls against the King Crab (it was not) at short range to the Bane, clan Ultra AC/2 have a short range of 9 and it was at 11, and rolls the shutdown for the 80 ton pony, (its making an ammo explosion check, by default its making a shutdown roll). So Stop worrying.
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Aug 12, 2011 02:59
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PoptartsNinja posted:There's a fine line, balancing these things. Yeah, the initative thing is a huge bitch. It's tough to balance around that, particularly if any mechanic lets the NonGoonLance get the initative an a 'random' time because the effect is soooo hhhuuuggeeee. It's tough to balance - and I think you've hit the right spots so far! There's been maybe one goof, but it's pretty hard to predict this stuff going in as Battletech has a far amount of variability built in.
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Aug 12, 2011 03:50
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AtomikKrab posted:if poptarts fixes the hit rolls Seriously, dude, the constant complaining is getting old. I've tolerated it for a long time, and now I'm asking you nicely: please stop.
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Aug 12, 2011 04:39
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Yeah, I can't imagine how hard it must be to balance games when you lose initiative by default. Haters gonna hate, but I think the missions have been top notch this far.
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Aug 12, 2011 05:17
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The entire thing has also been a pretty big learning experience for PTN and, from what we've all seen, he's done a bang-up job when you take the big picture into account. Of course, I'm both intrigued by and afraid of some of the ideas floating around, like the idea of a goons vs. goons throwdown. It's bound to be both horrible and transcendent at the same time and I can't wait to see how it goes down. But one thing that would seriously slow down a game like that is nitpicking. When it comes to games with GMs, things work out better for everyone in the long run if we just run with it and only raise objections when there's a lot at stake with an error. What I'm trying to say is you gotta pick your battles Atomik. Once goons vs. goons start up it's going to be a real clusterfuck if we can't be sporting and take it on the chin when questionable calls start to fall. EDIT: I'm not trying to be a white knight, I'm just saying that it's a hell of a lot less interesting to see two pages of discussion on a GM error than it is to get on with the game.
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Aug 12, 2011 05:34
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I think PTN's issue with it is more tone than content. He wants the rolls be right as much as the rest of us, and does not seem to take offense if someone simply points out an error. It is presumably far more irritating if it's pointed out in a such a way that it looks like a smug dick talking down to you constantly. As a smug dick who talks down to people a lot, I can say that they never seem to enjoy it.
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Aug 12, 2011 06:12
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Pretty much, Zaodai. I'm doing this to have fun; and let a bunch of people play an old-school tabletop game who might have otherwise never heard of it / never had a chance to play it; in a way where they can have some sort of stake in the outcome. I will make mistakes, and I will go out of my way to fix them whenever possible; but the sheer amount of bookkeeping I go through is very time consuming and I often have to leave it at the drop of a hat to go take care of something more immediate. The constant nitpicking (and accusations that I am 'fixing' the game or cheating (really, there's no point--Battletech giveth and Battletech taketh away)) makes it a lot harder for me to put out the next update. I have other things I could be doing with my time; and I choose to do this because I enjoy it (and it gives me an excuse to write), and if other people seem to enjoy it as well that's all the better. I would still like people to point out errors, yes, but I'm a hair shy of adding a: "Did poptart's gently caress up? Yes? Well too bad, he'll try better next mission" rule just so I won't be bogged down for three to five days fixing a problem each update.
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Aug 12, 2011 06:35
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S'all good PtN don't let them get to you, you've been doing a fine job here and in DA2. Haterz gonna hate. Also, let's not forget that while "yes" this is "us" LPing the game together, this is really a vehicle for PtN fluff updates, otherwise we'd just be doing standard BT and not a reimagined version of it. I mean who the hell is reading the updates for Dice rolls, poo poo he could hide all of that and just put out the results and I'd be fine so long as they came with the couple of paragraphs of fluff.
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Aug 12, 2011 06:41
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I'm totally okay with a "deal with it" rule.
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Aug 12, 2011 06:52
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Some of us actually do care about the winning and losing aspect of it. If you take away that part of it, you basically remove our aspect of control and any element of surprise or tension from the battle. You reduce it to fan-fiction, no matter how well written it may be. I don't think I've given PTN any poo poo about flubbed dice rolls or anything, but I do prefer them to be accurate when possible. After all, a victory is not half as sweet if you got it through a record keeping snafu, and losing because of one would end up with some people undoubtedly mad which would detract from the thread in the long run.
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Aug 12, 2011 06:53
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Zaodai posted:Some of us actually do care about the winning and losing aspect of it. If you take away that part of it, you basically remove our aspect of control and any element of surprise or tension from the battle. You reduce it to fan-fiction, no matter how well written it may be. Dude, it's not even real Battletech, for all you know PtN just puts whatever results are most likely to make the most entertaining update out. The thrill of victory and defeat, really? It becomes even less cool when the dude who is doing this for free is getting poo poo for it, just let the man entertain us.
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Aug 12, 2011 07:08
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If I didn't have faith that PTN was doing the numbers legit, I wouldn't be following the thread. You can be a stuck up prick about the fluff all you want, it doesn't make you right. Also, it would be somewhat stupid for PTN to create the thread, ask for player involvement, and then rig the game to fit his narrative. That makes no sense whatsoever. He could have picked any other format if he just wanted to tell a story. A single player game through megamek would be about a billion times easier than getting player orders and then faking a bunch of combat rolls to drag it out.
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Aug 12, 2011 07:31
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PTN, I think would make the dice rolls more nail biting if he were doing that. So far the thread has been a case of good luck for the PCs bad luck for the PCs just like the board game gives you.
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Aug 12, 2011 07:49
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Fudging numbers is a DM tradition as old as time, but Battletech seems like the kind of game that doesn't need it. All is well and then bam, random headshots and mechs falling over out of nowhere.
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Aug 12, 2011 07:53
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PoptartsNinja posted:Pretty much, Zaodai. I haven't been following the thread since the start so this may have been mentioned once or twice or a hundred times, but have you considered just using megamek to run everything locally? It'd be a lot less time consuming and tedious to manage, and could let you do some other useful stuff (uploading the game save so players can click on stuff to look at armor, check ranges/los comes to mind)
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Aug 12, 2011 07:53
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PTN has mentioned that at some point in the future, he plans to start using Megamek for the missions. It's just that Megamek doesn't entirely run things right all the time, so he wants to give the true Battletech experience to the thread while he works out some of the stuff for Megamek missions.
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Aug 12, 2011 07:55
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Zaodai posted:PTN has mentioned that at some point in the future, he plans to start using Megamek for the missions. It's just that Megamek doesn't entirely run things right all the time, so he wants to give the true Battletech experience to the thread while he works out some of the stuff for Megamek missions. Plus, MegaMek doesn't seem to want to play well with my recording software.
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Aug 12, 2011 13:43
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On an entirely different note, for those of you in the audience who enjoy Battletech fluff, Catalyst last week put out what is probably their single best sourcebook; the Wars of Reaving. It details what happens to the Clans outside the Inner Sphere during the Jihad era (3067-3084), and why we never really heard about them before. The short answer? Horrific, brutal war on levels not really seen since the 1st Succession War. What happens when Clanners throw their honor completely out the window? A lot of Really Bad Things. It is exceptionally well written as a sourcebook, and (unlike large chunks of the Jihad) makes SENSE despite superficial similarities in plot structure. And hey, if you hate the Clans, you get to see some being irredeemable dicks and some be completely annihilated! 
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Aug 12, 2011 15:07
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Mukaikubo posted:And hey, if you hate the Clans, you get to see some being irredeemable dicks and some be completely annihilated! Clan Diamond Shark's moment to shine.
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Aug 12, 2011 16:17
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I'm in awe that PTN has dedicated a good portion of his free time to help us run a friggin tabletop game on the internet. If it wasn't for this thread, I wouldn't have bought the starter set for Battletech last week at GenCon. What's even more surprising is that all of the goon pilots have been good sports about it and most of the crap is coming from the peanut gallery. PTN, if you're inundated with data and rolls, would it help if you got an assistant/proofer? I really can't offer my services, but I'm sure there's someone in the thread that can assist you.
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Aug 12, 2011 18:18
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| # ? May 11, 2024 11:09 |
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Mukaikubo posted:On an entirely different note, for those of you in the audience who enjoy Battletech fluff, Catalyst last week put out what is probably their single best sourcebook; the Wars of Reaving. It details what happens to the Clans outside the Inner Sphere during the Jihad era (3067-3084), and why we never really heard about them before. The short answer? Horrific, brutal war on levels not really seen since the 1st Succession War. What happens when Clanners throw their honor completely out the window? A lot of Really Bad Things. It is exceptionally well written as a sourcebook, and (unlike large chunks of the Jihad) makes SENSE despite superficial similarities in plot structure. And hey, if you hate the Clans, you get to see some being irredeemable dicks and some be completely annihilated! That looks incredibly awesome and I want badly to read it... but $25 for a PDF? Really?
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Aug 12, 2011 18:30
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