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Ecco the Dolphin posted:How would a Faceless Man take control of a sellsword company anyway? Either Daario would have to be a real guy that he killed and replaced, it'd have to be a long, long con. Yeah, I think this is the biggest obstacle and pretty much shoots the theory to poo poo.
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Aug 11, 2011 18:36
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I assumed that greyscale is the ASOIAF version of leprosy. It doesn't easily spead, but everyone is terrified to death of it. I kind of assumed Connington got unlucky with a mouthful of water that greyscale victims have been drinking/making GBS threads in.
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Aug 11, 2011 18:38
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Someone said earlier that Mance wrote the letter to Jon. What's the evidence for this, and why would he do it?
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Aug 11, 2011 18:51
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Unzip and Attack posted:Someone said earlier that Mance wrote the letter to Jon. What's the evidence for this, and why would he do it? 1) The letter addresses Jon as "bastard" a lot. Mance called him "bastard" while in Rattleshirt's appearance, and Ramsay hates the word (though it's not clear if it's only when applied to him). 2) Ramsay wouldn't give a poo poo about Mance's son and sister-in-law.
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Aug 11, 2011 18:58
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There's also the broken seal on the letter, and the fact that when the spearwives were busting out Theon, Mance just ran off to carry out some mysterious other part of the plan. Also, the letter mentions Mance by name. Most people outside the Watch don't even know Mance by any name but King-Beyond-the-Wall, and certainly don't know what he looks like. Also, the idea of Stannis marching his entire host right through the still-going storm, meeting up with Umber, and just letting his whole army get smashed in a frontal assault on the walls (especially after the Iron Bank dude tells them about Karstark's planned betrayal, and given Manderley's planned betrayal) strains credulity.
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Aug 11, 2011 19:03
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I think there's a lot of evidence that the letter is not the truth. But to me it's a huge leap from there to "must've been written by Mance".
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Aug 11, 2011 19:14
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Eggnogium posted:I think there's a lot of evidence that the letter is not the truth. But to me it's a huge leap from there to "must've been written by Mance". Yeah, but the problem is that the other possible culprits are also all pretty unlikely - and that includes Ramsay.
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Aug 11, 2011 19:28
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Habibi posted:Yeah, but the problem is that the other possible culprits are also all pretty unlikely - and that includes Ramsay. It could be that Mance has teamed up with Ramsay to some end, even if he just got caught and is playing him. I would guess that the theory was that Mance asked specifically for "Reek" in order to sound like Ramsay, but whotf even knows or cares who Reek is, besides Ramsay and Roose? And how would Jon know or care that Theon and the false bride escaped? If Mance wanted to taunt him he would've claimed he has his sister. But then of course Ramsay wouldn't care about Mance's sister-in-law or son either, if he even knew about them. It is also obvious a lot of the letter is flat out lies anyway, since whoever it is thinks Theon and Jeyne are at the wall when they are with Stannis. Nnd there was the whole Manderly factor, and the mission he sent Davos on, which is probably freeing the captives of the Frey's to free up the Umbers et all to fight back. And the fact that Ramsay signs as the Lord of Winterfell which means Roose is probably dead or indisposed.
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Aug 11, 2011 19:45
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Nah. Mance Rayder's name is mentioned by someone else in AGOT, I'm pretty sure. Even if he's not: 1. Roose Bolton addresses Ramsay Bolton as "Bastard." It's the single most grievous insult Ramsay knows. Ramsay's also clearly not a good judge of character, as he thinks all of the men he's surrounded himself with are his instead of Roose's. He probably figured that "Bastard" would have the same effect on Jon it does on him. 2. Mance doesn't need to be caught, although he could be. Remember that some of the spearwives were likely caught. Flay enough of them and they're likely to say Mance's name at the least, even if they're not really saying anything else. 3. none of the rest indicates anybody other than Ramsay. The Sister-in-law/kid thing's got to have spread by now. You can't have thousands and thousands of Wildlings get smashed, then settled in the Gift, without it getting out somehow. Especially if he's got enough spearwives to skin he'll piece together something about a prominent wildling woman and make the same mistakes Stannis did regarding her status with the Wildlings. Regarding the Iron Bank: Why would the Faceless Men be the arm of the bank, instead of vice versa? whowhatwhere fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Aug 11, 2011 |
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Aug 11, 2011 19:50
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whowhatwhere posted:3. none of the rest indicates anybody other than Ramsay. Why would Ramsay care about Mance's son and sister?
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Aug 11, 2011 19:53
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Unzip and Attack posted:Why would Ramsay care about Mance's son and sister? The same reason Stannis does. Everyone south of the wall (mistakenly) believes them to be respected and powerful among the wildlings, making them important for anyone who wants to control the north.
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Aug 11, 2011 19:55
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Out of all the characters in the book I thought Ramsay was the worst written. It's like every Theon chapter is " Ramsay and the horrible things he does to people" . It really was just completely way over the top and the implied bestiality rape was just way out there. Yes, people are horrible human beings to each other. It's like he was trying to just top himself. Also it's heavily implied pedarastian sex scenes were uncomfortable. No , george we don't need to read about some guy going down on a 14 year old thanks.
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Aug 11, 2011 20:06
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bouncyman posted:I'm pretty sure Daario is one of the six bodies they're flinging from the catapults into the city at the end of Dance. What makes you think that? They never describe them right? Ecco the Dolphin posted:Another out-there theory from earlier in the thread that I really liked was the idea that the Faceless Men are actually a covert arm of the Iron Bank. This would be a reason Arya gets sent to the Wall to finish off the somehow-resurrected Jon, since he just mortgaged everything to the Iron Bank for provisions. He can't pay because blah blah wildlings Ramsay blah blah and Arya gets sent to kill him. But I agree it's out-there. The Iron Bank probably just has lots of money to spend on assassins if anything.
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Aug 11, 2011 20:06
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The Iron Bank is my favorite surprise new faction
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Aug 11, 2011 20:09
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NihilCredo posted:More importantly, when the boat guys think that Tyrion might be infected, they tell him not to touch any food that he isn't going to eat. So yeah, definitely contagious Rurik posted:So what makes people think it was Mance who wrote the letter? How he knew to write about Reek and how to sound like Ramsay? And why would he do that in the first place? Am I the only one who thinks Jon is really dead? Dead dead? Ned, Robb, Renly... GRRM has a good line in noble rulers who get really hosed over just when you think they're going to do something cool and stereotypical.
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Aug 11, 2011 20:17
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ImJasonH posted:What makes you think that? They never describe them right? Well, I think that 6 bodies with 6 hostages is too convenient to not match up. When they killed the first three hostages they only sent back the heads right? I don't remember. If they still have six hostage bodies, then I'm almost positive that the six bodies they catapulted are the hostages. ^^ from the interview at: http://shelf-life.ew.com/2011/07/21/dance-with-dragons-shocking-twist-g quote:ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: So why did you kill Jon Snow? So yeah.. pretty sure he's not dead dead. I personally hope he survives the stabbings and isn't brought back/healed/warged bouncyman fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Aug 11, 2011 |
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Aug 11, 2011 20:26
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bouncyman posted:Well, I think that 6 bodies with 6 hostages is too convenient to not match up. When they killed the first three hostages they only sent back the heads right? I don't remember. If they still have six hostage bodies, then I'm almost positive that the six bodies they catapulted are the hostages. There were seven hostages. They gave three of them back alive. They killed one already. Now they have 3.
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Aug 11, 2011 21:06
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http://www.aoltv.com/2011/08/11/game-of-thrones-george-r-r-martin-interview-part-1/quote:I mean, I'm getting great reviews on the new book, for example, but a few people seem to be annoyed by certain phrases that I use frequently in the new book. "Words are wind," which occurs like 10 times in the book. After about the fifth time, some people began to hate that phrase. He's on to you guys.
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Aug 11, 2011 21:18
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Chainsawdomy posted:There were seven hostages. They gave three of them back alive. They killed one already. Now they have 3. They can always split them in half...
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Aug 11, 2011 21:21
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bouncyman posted:
I think this is the most likely outcome. He almost dies, has bad scars, etc.
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Aug 11, 2011 21:34
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xamphear posted:http://www.aoltv.com/2011/08/11/game-of-thrones-george-r-r-martin-interview-part-1/ Decent interview. GRRM posted:I've got a few letters from gay fans who, while they were pleased by the naked male sexuality, were upset that the penises were not actually erect.
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Aug 11, 2011 21:41
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NihilCredo posted:1) The letter addresses Jon as "bastard" a lot. Mance called him "bastard" while in Rattleshirt's appearance, and Ramsay hates the word (though it's not clear if it's only when applied to him). Habibi posted:Yeah, but the problem is that the other possible culprits are also all pretty unlikely - and that includes Ramsay.
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Aug 11, 2011 21:57
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ImJasonH posted:This would be a reason Arya gets sent to the Wall to finish off the somehow-resurrected Jon, since he just mortgaged everything to the Iron Bank for provisions. Except Faceless Men can't accept contracts to off people they know. If she goes off to kill Jon/Sansa/some Winterfell dude she would be going rogue basically.
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Aug 11, 2011 22:03
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Well Jon did betray Mance. And from a more militant wildling perspective, Stannis and Jon have essentially enslaved his people. Mance was pragmatic enough to accept Melisandre's help, but in truth, we really don't know that much about his personality. He had to be both charismatic and flexible enough to unite the disparate wildling tribes, so this implies a certain amount of cunning at the least. He did beat the poo poo out of Jon when disguised as Rattleshirt. Who knows? He may be vindictive enough to try and goad Jon into a suicide mission. Still, this is all really far fetched. Fun to talk about, and it staves off the inevitable rape and lemoncakes talk for another day.
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Aug 11, 2011 22:04
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YES bread posted:Except Faceless Men can't accept contracts to off people they know. If she goes off to kill Jon/Sansa/some Winterfell dude she would be going rogue basically. But she doesn't know the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch is Jon, so she goes there to kill "The Lord Commander" and finds out it's him. Now she either gives up Faceless Manning, or joins him there to kick rear end because now she's a badass assassin.
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Aug 11, 2011 22:41
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I'm pretty sure that if someone contracts the Faceless Men to kill the Lord Commander of the Wall that they'll mention his name. It's an ancient group of professional magical assassins, they are kind of thorough. *edit* I mean the dude who brings Arya to Braavos tells her his name and asks her to remember it, it's an important enough "rule" of the organization that common folk know it. There is no way they're gonna go "Hey assassinate this guy, you may or may not know him whatevs" YES bread fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Aug 11, 2011 |
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Aug 11, 2011 23:01
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Is it wrong of me to secretly hope that Dream of Spring ends with just that; a "dream" of spring, with nearly everyone dead (including Dany, dragons, et al) and the lands are utterly covered by the Others' blight, with perhaps a few stalwart adventurers holed up somewhere (Tyrion among them) shivering to death and hoping their barricade isn't destroyed by the army of wights just outside, and Tyrion (as he's freezing to death) dreams of a beautiful spring day where he has finally found where whores go and he and Tysha are having a lovely picnic at Casterly Rock, and he slips off to death with what thought the last in his mind. Edit- Or, alternately, that the series ends with the Others and their white blight wiped out, but the dragons/Rhyllor's wrath has been so horrible that the entire land is scorched and blackened (A Westerosi Doom if you will) and again everyone is dead but this time Tyrion and his companions are trapped in a burning castle, one of the last, and his dream is the same but brought on in his last moments as he's suffocating from smoke inhalation. Either would make me happy in what I suppose is a rather perverse way. Ignatius-J-R fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Aug 11, 2011 |
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Aug 11, 2011 23:18
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Can someone clarify what happened to Wyman Manderly at Winterfell? I know he got his fat neck cut, but he's not dead, right?
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Aug 11, 2011 23:55
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They cut his chin fat. White adipose tissue isn't heavily vascularized, it's the reason gladiators were a little meaty, extra padding. As for the Dream of Spring, it would certainly be masochistically satisfying to see the bad guy win, but with the exception of books that are trying to make a statement, say, 1984, how many books end like that? GRRM isn't Lovecraft, and by the internal mythology, the Others have been defeated once already, and it doesn't seem like they've improved their tactics since then..
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Aug 12, 2011 00:10
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bouncyman posted:Well, I think that 6 bodies with 6 hostages is too convenient to not match up. When they killed the first three hostages they only sent back the heads right? I don't remember. If they still have six hostage bodies, then I'm almost positive that the six bodies they catapulted are the hostages. I don't remember there being much reason to conclude that the bodies the catapults were throwing were the hostages, or even that there were only 6 bodies thrown. When I read it my assumption was that they were throwing corpses with the plague over the walls, in a medieval bio warfare situation. Seems a waste of hostages to fling them around with catapults, partly because they would almost certainly be unrecognizable afterwards...
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Aug 12, 2011 00:22
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Well it can't be a real letter, I mean he asks them to return his Reek, but Theon was brought to Stannis like right befor this happened and such. Alas he might have gotten away or something but still. Anyways, I've never bee nso dissapointed as when I read what happened to Jon. I mean I always thought Coldhands might have been Benjen or something, and that Jon might become like him or something, but Jeez, there aren't many Starks left. It would have been a lot better if I knew that they weren't really supposed to be the main characters, like in "No Country For Old Men". I'm very dissapoint.
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Aug 12, 2011 00:37
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oogyboogs posted:Jaqen is seen at the beginning of AFFC, poisoning an acolyte named Pate with a coin. He appears at the very end of the book, in Pate's place AS Pate. If you think of AFFC and ADWD as one piece, it makes more sense. What evidence is there to support that Jaqen was the one who killed Pate? The Many-Faced God's assassins don't seem in the business of killing people towards an end, only when they are asked to "give the gift" to someone. Besides, I may have glossed over some key point, but the only description given to Pate's killer was that he was a completely ordinary looking person without any outstanding features. Also, as an aside, I got the impression that the prologue to book 4 happened after the last chapter, once Samwell arrived to the Citadel. Since the very last sentence in the book is basically, "Call me, Pate", I had assumed it was used as a reference to sorting out the timeline of events. I don't know, I could be wrong, but if there's good evidence to the contrary, please enlighten me.
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Aug 12, 2011 01:04
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Guy A. Person posted:I would guess that the theory was that Mance asked specifically for "Reek" in order to sound like Ramsay, but whotf even knows or cares who Reek is, besides Ramsay and Roose? And how would Jon know or care that Theon and the false bride escaped? If Mance wanted to taunt him he would've claimed he has his sister. Don't forget that Mance/Abel had been hanging around Winterfell for a while, he probably picked up the whole Reek thing pretty quickly.
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Aug 12, 2011 01:04
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Wishful thinking, I know, but is there really overwhelming evidence that Jon is for sure dead? Consider all the psych outs we've had already. Bran and Rickon "dying" to Theon, Cat being resurrected by Beric, and the Hound's axe catching Arya "in the back of the head". With these previous examples I'm just going to hope the description given of Jon not feeling the last stab turns out him fainting and waking up somewhere in the next book. If you think about it, Jon really hasn't done anything significant yet whereas Ned and Robb accomplished a lot before they died and whose deaths were the catalysts for much of what we're seeing now. Very few people are going to shed a tear if Jon is taken out of the picture, except maybe Arya.
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Aug 12, 2011 01:21
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Leoben posted:Wishful thinking, I know, but is there really overwhelming evidence that Jon is for sure dead? Despite the fact that I actually like when Martin has the balls to off beloved characters ( you know, for laughs), there is almost no way Jon is staying dead (provided he is). I figure we have a few options: A: Mellisandre will bust out some Red Priest necromancy and bring him back and send him off away from the Wall (probably to loving Mereen like every other character in the world) B: Maybe pull some Ben Stark/Coldhands mojo and have him be some POV character for the whole White Walker world (actually sounds kind of cool now that I think about it). C: The knives didn't kill him because he's actually secretly a Targaryean and a Greenseer and a skin-changer and maybe a ghost.
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Aug 12, 2011 01:33
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Dog Toggle Switch posted:What evidence is there to support that Jaqen was the one who killed Pate? The Many-Faced God's assassins don't seem in the business of killing people towards an end, only when they are asked to "give the gift" to someone. Besides, I may have glossed over some key point, but the only description given to Pate's killer was that he was a completely ordinary looking person without any outstanding features. It's mentioned that the poisoner has a scar on his cheek like Jaqen did after he changed. I think that's pretty much the only clue though.
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Aug 12, 2011 02:12
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Hell Diver posted:It's mentioned that the poisoner has a scar on his cheek like Jaqen did after he changed. I think that's pretty much the only clue though. it's pretty much identical to the description of Jaqen the last time we see him: quote:He was just a man, and his face was just a face. A young man’s face, ordinary, with full cheeks and the shadow of a beard. A scar showed faintly on his right cheek. He had a hooked nose, and a mat of dense black hair that curled tightly around his ears. It was not a face Pate recognized.
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Aug 12, 2011 02:40
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Based off what Bloodraven said, a child of the forest that is a greenseer has red eyes. Don't Arya, Lem , Beric, and Thoros have a face off with one of them? I can't remember if it was an old woman or a child of the forest, but she had bright red eyes.
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Aug 12, 2011 02:41
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She's the dwarf woman we see when Arya's with the BWB but she's not part of their group, she sticks around the weirwoods on a "haunted" hill. She isn't a child of the forest and she has something to do with Jenny of Oldstones.ImJasonH posted:But she doesn't know the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch is Jon, so she goes there to kill "The Lord Commander" and finds out it's him. Now she either gives up Faceless Manning, or joins him there to kick rear end because now she's a badass assassin.
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Aug 12, 2011 03:09
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NihilCredo posted:1) The letter addresses Jon as "bastard" a lot. Mance called him "bastard" while in Rattleshirt's appearance, and Ramsay hates the word (though it's not clear if it's only when applied to him). Everyone called Jon "bastard" except Ned and Arya. My crazy theory is that Ramsay wrote the letter. And that Jaqen still looks like Pate as he's obviously dicking about with something over that way.
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Aug 12, 2011 03:29
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