The NEW A/T Martial Arts Thread: Aikido to Zoo-jitsu

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > The NEW A/T Martial Arts Thread: Aikido to Zoo-jitsu

Sneaksie Taffer: Sep 21, 2009

Cyphoderus posted:

Essential are lower body and core strength and cardio. Complementary training on that will help you a lot, even though these are the areas that most improve naturally with practice.
Upper body strength training is essential if you plan on doing a certain kind of flourish. Flexibility is great to have, but it's much rarer seeing a capoeirista doing full splits than in a lot of other martial arts.

A typical session (in my group) goes: start with warm-up and stretching. Then we do around 10 minutes of dodging. Dodges are capoeira's most important moves and physically they are equivalent to squats (capoeiristas are the people with the finest asses you'll ever meet). The bulk of the training is spent with technique, working in alternating pairs. Ideally, at the end of training we have a roda - not a proper one, but a training one - with is capoeira's version of sparring.

Instrument lessons and flourish-oriented lessons are different from the standard mold. It's not very often that we skip the dodges, though.

Remember that there's nothing standardized about capoeira, so what you get out of it is different for each group that teaches it.*

The bound hand thing is crap; first off, slaves spent most of the times with their hands free. They were workers and needed those to work! Second, it's true that most groups don't incorporate direct hand strikes in regular training. But ask anyone who fights: even without being allowed to punch or slap, you need those arms for almost everything else.

The second part is true, though: the reason it looks so dance-y is because capoeira's approach to defense can be largely summed up in "don't get hit in the first place". It's also true that historically it was disguised as a dance to fool non-practicians, but at which point in history this tendency began I don't know. I think it could have been anywhere between 1600 and 1800, though I suspect it was more toward the latter.

For now, I can tell you that it is no dance: that is, there's no such thing as leading and following in strict patterns or "steps". A capoeira game (that's the proper term for when you've got capoeiristas playing in a roda) has a bunch of nuances that most other forms of sparring don't, though. You can have a game that's a demonstration of skill and contact is looked down on; you can have a game that revolves around flourishes; you can have a game that allows for contact; you can have a game that will leave only one player standing.

This is, however, the big money question. I will do a big post later on, hopefully tonight, that will clear this all up.

Do you play angola or regional? I've done angola for about five years now in the states, switching to regional for the past year due to moving and that being the only group around.

# ? Aug 14, 2011 23:36

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# ? Jun 4, 2024 11:01

Thoguh: Nov 8, 2002; College Slice

NovemberMike posted:

That club is at Iowa State, right? There is a 100% chance that a linebacker will be someone who wasn't good enough for the wrestling team and they will take you down.

That's where I started Judo, not where I'm at now. The ISU club is probably one of the biggest in the country right now. On a good night they have 80 or so people on the mats.

# ? Aug 15, 2011 01:06

Nierbo: Dec 5, 2010; sup brah?

Paul Pot posted:

many boxers use low guards...doesn't mean they don't know how to block a punch

Can you talk more about this. I occasionally see a boxer with a really fast jab fighting against someone who intentionally leaves their hands down around their stomach. I always thought that he could fire off a jab before the opponent could get their hands up to their face. Is he baiting him into something?

Anecdote coming up:
I did boxing a while ago and one time someone dropped their hands down to their stomach intentionally and left them there. I threw a cross as hard as I could thinking that he was taking a break and he countered by punching me in the chest which wasn't pleasant but wasn't exactly lethal either. Surely there must be some sort of end game to keeping the hands low other than some lame chest punch.

# ? Aug 15, 2011 01:12

Analytic Engine: May 18, 2009; not the analytical engine

I want to do knuckle pushups and use a punching bag to improve the strength and stability of my hands/wrists/arms, but there are some things I want to understand before really launching in.

1. Is it possible to improve the range of motion in my 1st knuckle joints, to 90 degrees or less? I've been doing static and dynamic stretches, as well as lower-weight knuckle pushups, but I'm getting pain in my 2nd knuckles and no perceptible improvement in RoM. I want to be able to put all the force on my punching knuckles, but if I keep my wrist straight then my fingers always connect with the floor/bag first.

2. How do I train without setting myself up for arthritis and nerve damage? I type and use a mouse in pretty much everything I do, and I want to be smart about this.

3. Is it better to train with knuckle wraps, or to punch bare-knuckle against something pretty soft like a phone book? I ordered some wraps and intend to use them, but I want to build stability in my wrist and strengthen the knuckles too.

# ? Aug 15, 2011 02:12

mewse: May 2, 2006

Analytic Engine posted:

3. Is it better to train with knuckle wraps, or to punch bare-knuckle against something pretty soft like a phone book? I ordered some wraps and intend to use them, but I want to build stability in my wrist and strengthen the knuckles too.

always use handwraps. dont just obey me blindly, google "boxer's fracture" or "broken hand". handwraps keep the meat in your hands packed so that you can't snap those tiny bones

# ? Aug 15, 2011 02:43

henkman: Oct 8, 2008

Ligur posted:

It's not available for the public

Good news! Someone else made a highlight video. It's at 3:34 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7eqfRfWboE

Watch the whole thing though. Our kids own. Fun fact: The girl at 1:37 is 12. She was grappling against women in their early 20s. She won gold.

henkman fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Aug 15, 2011

# ? Aug 15, 2011 04:14

Dirp: May 16, 2007

Nierbo posted:

Can you talk more about this. I occasionally see a boxer with a really fast jab fighting against someone who intentionally leaves their hands down around their stomach. I always thought that he could fire off a jab before the opponent could get their hands up to their face. Is he baiting him into something?

I don't know alot about this since I never do it but I know you can throw really quick, hard-to-see jabs, and shoulder roll really well with a stance like this.

# ? Aug 15, 2011 05:41

Paul Pot: Mar 4, 2010; by Y Kant Ozma Post

Nierbo posted:

Can you talk more about this. I occasionally see a boxer with a really fast jab fighting against someone who intentionally leaves their hands down around their stomach. I always thought that he could fire off a jab before the opponent could get their hands up to their face. Is he baiting him into something?

Anecdote coming up:
I did boxing a while ago and one time someone dropped their hands down to their stomach intentionally and left them there. I threw a cross as hard as I could thinking that he was taking a break and he countered by punching me in the chest which wasn't pleasant but wasn't exactly lethal either. Surely there must be some sort of end game to keeping the hands low other than some lame chest punch.

well, the idea is to bait your opponent to throw a punch at your head under the assumption that you're quick and skilled enough to counter it. it's much harder to avoid body shots, so keeping your hands down there discourages your opponent from trying them and your own punches become harder to spot. body shots with bare knuckles are really painful, so i can see why kyokushin guys could believe keeping their hands low has a higher payoff than being able to quickly block headkicks. in kickboxing/muaythai this obviously doesn't work. a boxing stance will get you lowkicked to death and a more square stance makes it much harder to counter shots, so you'll end up getting punched in the face a lot.

i don't know what to say about your chestpunching evidence apart from that there are other counter options out there.

# ? Aug 15, 2011 09:19

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

Paul Pot posted:

many boxers use low guards...doesn't mean they don't know how to block a punch

Yeah but a low guard is, as you said, usually combined with a stance that can make good use of it. These KK guys usually square off and basically just play chicken with their ribs. At that range, you can't hope to lean out of every head kick.

# ? Aug 15, 2011 09:27

Nierbo: Dec 5, 2010; sup brah?

Thankyou Paul Pot. I could read about the science of boxing alllll day.

# ? Aug 15, 2011 13:00

Wrestlepig: Feb 25, 2011; my mum says im cool; Toilet Rascal

I saw some Hapkido sparring video once where the victor just blocked the crescent kick with his hands and roundhoused the other guy in the groin. I can't find the video though.

Edit: Here it is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kg8lDZXyvMQ&feature=related

Wrestlepig fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Aug 18, 2011

# ? Aug 15, 2011 13:20

fawker: Feb 1, 2008; ARMBAR!

henkman posted:

Good news! Someone else made a highlight video. It's at 3:34 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7eqfRfWboE

Watch the whole thing though. Our kids own. Fun fact: The girl at 1:37 is 12. She was grappling against women in their early 20s. She won gold.

Love watching kids grapple

How old is that kid at :55 with the blue belt?!

# ? Aug 15, 2011 13:50

henkman: Oct 8, 2008

fawker posted:

Love watching kids grapple
How old is that kid at :55 with the blue belt?!

He's 10.

# ? Aug 15, 2011 15:13

Fontoyn: Aug 25, 2009; by Y Kant Ozma Post

Why does nobody have any takedown defense?

so many double-leg shots.

# ? Aug 15, 2011 16:06

Morbleu: Jun 13, 2006

Fontoyn posted:

Why does nobody have any takedown defense?

so many double-leg shots.

Probably because they're little kids learning BJJ.

# ? Aug 15, 2011 16:09

Paul Pot: Mar 4, 2010; by Y Kant Ozma Post

kimbo305 posted:

Yeah but a low guard is, as you said, usually combined with a stance that can make good use of it. These KK guys usually square off and basically just play chicken with their ribs. At that range, you can't hope to lean out of every head kick.

yeah, those idiots basically don't have any guard at all. i blame this on kyokushin being a very dumb martial art instead of something being wrong with the general idea of keeping a lower guard during bare knuckle fights. other karate styles have at least made great strides in improving competitive tag, kyokushin probably didn't even set a new standard in asian animal cruelty.

# ? Aug 15, 2011 17:17

Analytic Engine: May 18, 2009; not the analytical engine

mewse posted:

always use handwraps. dont just obey me blindly, google "boxer's fracture" or "broken hand". handwraps keep the meat in your hands packed so that you can't snap those tiny bones

Thanks, that's good advice. I had heard about that injury in live fighting but it's nice to know that it can happen even when practicing.

Can I get someone's thoughts on questions 1. and 2. as well? This is the perfect environment for advice from computer people that also condition their hands for fighting.

# ? Aug 15, 2011 17:31

mewse: May 2, 2006

Analytic Engine posted:

Can I get someone's thoughts on questions 1. and 2. as well? This is the perfect environment for advice from computer people that also condition their hands for fighting.

i'll try but your questions are really neurotic and probably best answered by a physiotherapist than a punch man

Analytic Engine posted:

I want to do knuckle pushups and use a punching bag to improve the strength and stability of my hands/wrists/arms, but there are some things I want to understand before really launching in.

you should take some classes to learn how to punch a bag. kickboxing, muay thai, or traditional boxing, anything with real punching will be better than the lone man in the wilderness thing that you're trying to do. a coach will have you hitting the bag with the proper form very, very quickly. teaching yourself bad form will be counterproductive. this isn't really something you can learn over the internet, it's the physical world

Analytic Engine posted:

1. Is it possible to improve the range of motion in my 1st knuckle joints, to 90 degrees or less?

here's a labelled picture of the hand bones. i think 90 degrees is probably the approx limit for knuckles (joints between metacarpals and proximal phalanges).

quote:

I've been doing static and dynamic stretches, as well as lower-weight knuckle pushups, but I'm getting pain in my 2nd knuckles and no perceptible improvement in RoM.

stretching your hand doesn't really do anything. the closest you get in boxing is to rub down your hands to increase bloodflow before putting on handwraps. a boxer is more concerned about keeping a tight grip than the ROM of their fingers.

what do you mean by 2nd knuckles, the knuckle on your middle finger, or the joints between proximal phalanges and intermediate phalanges? those proximal/intermediate joints should not be hitting anything, all your power should be delivered from your metacarpals, which leads to the next question

quote:

I want to be able to put all the force on my punching knuckles, but if I keep my wrist straight then my fingers always connect with the floor/bag first.

if you make a fist, hold your arm out, and point your thumb down, your knuckles should be lined up to hit something. there's a slight downward angle in the wrist. are you using gloves or are you just bareknuckle punching things with no technique?

quote:

2. How do I train without setting myself up for arthritis and nerve damage? I type and use a mouse in pretty much everything I do, and I want to be smart about this.

go to a gym and learn technique. all that typing and mousing is going to give you RSI if you don't strengthen your body

e: here's a really basic video about how to punch

mewse fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Aug 15, 2011

# ? Aug 15, 2011 18:27

George Rouncewell: Jul 20, 2007; You think that's illegal? Heh, watch this.

I nailed a flying triangle today. This. This is what a man should feel like.

mewse posted:

go to a gym and learn technique.

Seconding this. Training alone is counterproductive.

edit: here is a great video showing every strike you'll ever need

George Rouncewell fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Aug 15, 2011

# ? Aug 15, 2011 18:43

Mechafunkzilla: Sep 11, 2006; If you want a vision of the future...

Illegal Username posted:

edit: here is a great video showing every strike you'll ever need

Well that is certainly a thing.

# ? Aug 15, 2011 18:50

KingColliwog: May 15, 2003; Let's go droogs

Illegal Username posted:

edit: here is a great video showing every strike you'll ever need

Is this really a thing?

# ? Aug 15, 2011 20:00

Xguard86: Nov 22, 2004; "You don't understand his pain. Everywhere he goes he sees women working, wearing pants, speaking in gatherings, voting. Surely they will burn in the white hot flames of Hell"

we get these questions a lot so I am going to edit a big flashing thing in the OP:

:siren:

Do not try to Teach Yourself a Martial Art. DVDs, The internet, and Books will not teach you what you need to know and will lead to bad habits at best and injuries at worst.

# ? Aug 15, 2011 20:23

wedgie deliverer: Oct 2, 2010

Mention maybe that books and DVDs are alright as supplements to class, not as replacements? At least that is how I feel about it.

# ? Aug 15, 2011 20:27

Xguard86: Nov 22, 2004; "You don't understand his pain. Everywhere he goes he sees women working, wearing pants, speaking in gatherings, voting. Surely they will burn in the white hot flames of Hell"

swmmrmanshen posted:

Mention maybe that books and DVDs are alright as supplements to class, not as replacements? At least that is how I feel about it.

Here is what I put:

quote:

Second:

Do not try to Teach Yourself a Martial Art. DVDs, The internet, and Books will not teach you what you need to know and will lead to bad habits at best and injuries at worst. Find a teacher, Youtube-jitsu does not work.

Imagine your diet:
Books, Videos, and Media are supplements, the gym is what you are actually eating. No one can survive only on supplements, no matter how many gel caps they cram down in a day.

Figure thats a pretty good explanation.

I know Evan Tanner became UFC champ primarily by watching VHS tapes in his garage. That was a different era when the overall MA knowledge level was pretty low. My old instructor was a bjj blue belt around that time and won a "most technical submission award" at a US tournament by using a triangle choke in his championship fight. Now a days, white belts spider guard sweep and no one raises an eyebrow.

Evan Tanner was also a top .01% athlete, so if you're a D1 wrestler or something, feel free to do whatever the hell you want.

Speaking of DVDs: I ordered the Ryan Hall Deep-Half and back attack DVDs last week. My friend from another gym came visiting and showed me some basic deep half stuff and now I want to really explore it. Plus, no one at my gym specializes in that so maybe I can finally get a thing I can do that scares everyone. It's kind of an unspoken prereq for brown that you have a position or set of moves that is universally feared. Not that I am anywhere close to a promotion, but I'd like to work toward that.

Xguard86 fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Aug 15, 2011

# ? Aug 15, 2011 20:38

Office Sheep: Jan 20, 2007

Xguard86 posted:

Speaking of DVDs: I ordered the Ryan Hall Deep-Half and back attack DVDs last week. My friend from another gym came visiting and showed me some basic deep half stuff and now I want to really explore it. Plus, no one at my gym specializes in that so maybe I can finally get a thing I can do that scares everyone. It's kind of an unspoken prereq for brown that you have a position or set of moves that is universally feared. Not that I am anywhere close to a promotion, but I'd like to work toward that.

Be sure to report what you think of the back attacks part of this. I feel like the 50% of my rolling that doesn't end with me getting beat ends with me clinging to someones back unable to finish.

Also does anyone have any recommendations of books/movies for grip fighting?

# ? Aug 15, 2011 21:07

Wrestlepig: Feb 25, 2011; my mum says im cool; Toilet Rascal

Illegal Username posted:

edit: here is a great video showing every strike you'll ever need

It looks like he copied the stance off pictures on the side of a pyramid.

# ? Aug 15, 2011 23:13

Office Sheep: Jan 20, 2007

Psalmanazar posted:

It looks like he copied the stance off pictures on the side of a pyramid.

If you go to the corresponding website. You find that they are recreating it from an old manuscript so you are pretty much right.

# ? Aug 15, 2011 23:34

Nierbo: Dec 5, 2010; sup brah?

Paul Pot posted:

yeah, those idiots basically don't have any guard at all. i blame this on kyokushin being a very dumb martial art instead of something being wrong with the general idea of keeping a lower guard during bare knuckle fights. other karate styles have at least made great strides in improving competitive tag, kyokushin probably didn't even set a new standard in asian animal cruelty.

This is really making me not want to go check out that kyokushin dojo tonight.

e: and by dojo, I mean the local PCYC.

Nierbo fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Aug 16, 2011

# ? Aug 15, 2011 23:57

Meat Recital: Mar 26, 2009; by zen death robot

Could anyone recommend a good BJJ gym in Vancouver, BC? I was thinking either the Gracie Barra on Main (brand recognition), or the Elite Kickboxing Gym in North Van (mostly because it's 10 minutes from my house). Thanks.

# ? Aug 16, 2011 00:05

02-6611-0142-1: Sep 30, 2004

Office Sheep posted:

Be sure to report what you think of the back attacks part of this. I feel like the 50% of my rolling that doesn't end with me getting beat ends with me clinging to someones back unable to finish.

Also does anyone have any recommendations of books/movies for grip fighting?

I love Ryan Hall's DVDs. I haven't explored 50-50 or Deep Half much, but I've been through The Triangle and Back Attacks a few times now. Back Attacks has a lot of little tricks and hints that are fantastic, but some of the fundamental moves he uses are a little weird. Hard to explain. It's still very good though, and is improving my back game a lot.

The Triangle DVD's have totally blown my mind though, and one day my triangles suddenly changed from this-thing-that-usually-gets-my-guard-passed into a spiralling vortex or death and destruction. After two or three viewings, I actually had steel blades sprout from my flesh, and began breathing fire.

# ? Aug 16, 2011 01:58

awkward_turtle: Oct 26, 2007; swimmer in a goon sea

Meat Recital posted:

Could anyone recommend a good BJJ gym in Vancouver, BC? I was thinking either the Gracie Barra on Main (brand recognition), or the Elite Kickboxing Gym in North Van (mostly because it's 10 minutes from my house). Thanks.

Google-fu - Marcus Soares is almost certainly the best BJJ in Vancouver, and Stephen Kesting (fairly well know for his youtube videos and the site Grapplers Guide) teaches there too I think. North Vancouver BJJ also looks good just based on having a black belt who's still actively competing. If Elite kickboxing being so close means you'll go more, then go there, but learning from a purple belt when you could be learning from an experienced black belt isn't really ideal.

# ? Aug 16, 2011 02:09

Wrestlepig: Feb 25, 2011; my mum says im cool; Toilet Rascal

Office Sheep posted:

If you go to the corresponding website. You find that they are recreating it from an old manuscript so you are pretty much right.

But that's retarded. The egyptians were never involved in particularly realistic drawings. The stance (chest forward, head across) is how people were drawn, probably not how people fought.

# ? Aug 16, 2011 06:28

Paul Pot: Mar 4, 2010; by Y Kant Ozma Post

Nierbo posted:

This is really making me not want to go check out that kyokushin dojo tonight.

e: and by dojo, I mean the local PCYC.

go by all means, who knows how that group is run and maybe you're into macho bullshit like punching rocks and hitting each other in the ribs for half an hour.

there have been a few kyokushin guys that successfully transitioned to k-1, so it's not a useless art by any means. i'm just more of a proponent of hit and not get hit as opposed to being tougher than your opponent. that and if your claim to fame is beating livestock to death, you're not a good fighter, but merely a disgusting individual.

# ? Aug 16, 2011 09:26

Guilty: May 3, 2003; Ask me about how people having a bad reaction to MSG makes them racist, because I've never heard of gluten sensitivity

I'm going to be the main corner for a thai fight this weekend. Any tips? I've done it 3/4 times before, so I know the basics, keep calm, yell louder than the crowd, and try to calm the fighter down and tell him to breathe. Anything else?

Nierbo posted:

Can you talk more about this. I occasionally see a boxer with a really fast jab fighting against someone who intentionally leaves their hands down around their stomach. I always thought that he could fire off a jab before the opponent could get their hands up to their face. Is he baiting him into something?

Here you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imwGeX1SRFk

1 and 3 in particular

# ? Aug 16, 2011 10:24

Lt. Shiny-sides: Dec 24, 2008

Guilty posted:

I'm going to be the main corner for a thai fight this weekend. Any tips? I've done it 3/4 times before, so I know the basics, keep calm, yell louder than the crowd, and try to calm the fighter down and tell him to breathe. Anything else?

Don't let your seconds get mouthy. They can impart info to you but keep all the info going to fighters simple and in one voice, yours. I still see whole teams trying to coach one fighter and do nothing other then drown each other out and confuse a poor guy.

# ? Aug 16, 2011 12:07

Guilty: May 3, 2003; Ask me about how people having a bad reaction to MSG makes them racist, because I've never heard of gluten sensitivity

Lt. Shiny-sides posted:

Don't let your seconds get mouthy. They can impart info to you but keep all the info going to fighters simple and in one voice, yours. I still see whole teams trying to coach one fighter and do nothing other then drown each other out and confuse a poor guy.

Awesome, almost forgot about that one. Reminds me of a story, our gym was hosting a giant boxing event, nearly 1000 spectators, and it was the last fight, between two great fighters, and this guy who evidently trained at the red corner's gym kept going up to him and yelling advice while the coaches were trying to talk to him in between rounds. He even went so far as to punch the fighter (yes, the fighter) in the leg in order to get his attention. What a loving dick.

# ? Aug 16, 2011 13:45

Fleshpeg: Oct 23, 2001; Stop harassing me!

02-6611-0142-1 posted:

The Triangle DVD's have totally blown my mind though, and one day my triangles suddenly changed from this-thing-that-usually-gets-my-guard-passed into a spiralling vortex or death and destruction. After two or three viewings, I actually had steel blades sprout from my flesh, and began breathing fire.

I only have the Triangle DVD set, but I was really impressed with how well Ryan Hall explains basic concepts and how they relate to what he's trying to accomplish. Unless there's something very specific I'm trying to figure out, I hate instructionals that are just "Watch me perform 100 different passes/sweeps/armbars". Hearing him talk about ideas like the need to get out to one side when attacking and using frames is much more useful than adding a few more variations to a move. I've always found that my game advances more when I pick up little fundamental details that I've missed rather than anything flashy. Then again, it took me 2 years before I realized that I was creating the angle for triangles/armbars from guard really inefficiently, so I may be a little slow.

# ? Aug 16, 2011 18:22

Xguard86: Nov 22, 2004; "You don't understand his pain. Everywhere he goes he sees women working, wearing pants, speaking in gatherings, voting. Surely they will burn in the white hot flames of Hell"

I originally wasn't going to buy the DVDs (I haven't even bought a bjj book in 2 years) but I was sold after watching the youtube preview. Seems like he puts the time in and makes a quality product, plus he is obviously a smart guy and able to talk about what he is doing at a high level.

# ? Aug 16, 2011 19:38