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Yeah, I get the impression that Starks work great so long as they're actually in charge and sitting with most of the power (or whoever actually has the power doesn't really care what they get up to, I guess). Once they actually have to get realpolitiky, everything goes to poo poo.
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Aug 16, 2011 12:51
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I said it in another thread and I'll say it here. "Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moon Boy and Robert Strong." Calling it now.
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Aug 16, 2011 13:05
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V. Illych L. posted:Yeah, I get the impression that Starks work great so long as they're actually in charge and sitting with most of the power (or whoever actually has the power doesn't really care what they get up to, I guess). Once they actually have to get realpolitiky, everything goes to poo poo. I think it has more to do with the type of politics being used. Someone earlier in the thread pointed out that the Starks seem to have the most loyalty from their bannermen. There are instanced like the Boltons and the Karstarks but one is super evil and the other at least had a valid reason for the betrayal. Compared to the flip-flopping that the Lannister, Baratheon and even Tully bannerman do over the course of the books the Starks seem to be running a pretty tight ship. You have the Manderly's trying to covertly win back the north for the Starks, and the mountain tribes yelling "we need to save Ned's girl!" None of the Lannister's loyal bannermen are trying to rush in and save Cersei. Her own uncle barely gives a poo poo. Where the Starks start loving up is when the game becomes "honor" versus "back-stabbing treachery". When dealing with their own people who they know and rule justly and have done right by, everything seems to work out. When they go down to King's Landing to deal with the schemers and plotters they get circles run around them. I think with all of the aforementioned loyalty displayed in the last book, we are being set up for the Starks coming back stronger in the long run (well not stronger than they started, but relatively stronger than some of the other families).
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Aug 16, 2011 14:46
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I dunno, remember what happened to the last King in the North? 
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Aug 16, 2011 15:08
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Which Lannister bannerman flipflopped? e; The Westerlings going over to the Starks was planned by Tywin. e2; And people are drawing way to many assumptions about the families from what we're seeing today. Sure, the Starks that we see in the books generally appear to be good guys, but that doesn't mean that All Starks Ever have been honorable to a fault and overly trusting, nor have all Boltons for 3000 years been sociopaths etc.. vvv: Yeah, that's probably true, but in either case Sybelle Westerling was planning to go back to the Lannisters from the very start. Kainser fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Aug 16, 2011 |
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Aug 16, 2011 15:42
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Kainser posted:Which Lannister bannerman flipflopped? I don't think the Westerlings thing was planned as much as the Westerlings flipped out once Robb knocked up their daughter and made a deal with Tywin so that he wouldn't destroy them a la the Reynes.
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Aug 16, 2011 15:47
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roop posted:And is it a coincidence that it's Robert Strong? Maybe it's not Gregor after all! Oh man, that would be loving hysterical. Zombie King Robert retakes the Iron Throne.
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Aug 16, 2011 16:00
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Kainser posted:Which Lannister bannerman flipflopped? My fault, I was probably thinking of the Bloody Mummers, which obviously doesn't count anyway since they are sellswords. In retrospect we don't know a whole lot about their individual bannermen outside of the Cleganes (or else I am just blanking on them). My point was more to counter the "the (current) Starks do alright if they have lots of power otherwise they suck at politics/ruling" argument. They seem like they inspire a lot of loyalty among their own bannermen and various people who they run across, and in the long run it seems like this is going to pay off. The Manderlies and the mountain tribes are going to great lengths to help a family which is on the verge of being wiped out, when they could just sit back and try to survive.
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Aug 16, 2011 16:03
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Of course, Manderly is also being forced to serve the people who killed his son, and would be ruled by the freakin' Boltons. It's not like gambling everything on the Starks is that insane given those circumstances.
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Aug 16, 2011 16:19
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I honestly wonder why Roose is keeping Ramsay around. There seems to be a lot of Northmen who are all "Eh, Roose is pretty bad but not bad enough to resist I guess, but his heir is loving insane  ". It's not like he loves his son or anything. Kainser fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Aug 16, 2011 |
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Aug 16, 2011 16:28
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Ramsay makes him look better by comparison, could be used as a bargaining chip in an emergency, and Roose himself is as bad or worse, but is better at managing PR. I'm sure raping Ramsay's mother under his father's corpse isn't the worse thing he's done, just the worst we've heard of.
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Aug 16, 2011 16:59
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Guy A. Person posted:I think with all of the aforementioned loyalty displayed in the last book, we are being set up for the Starks coming back stronger in the long run (well not stronger than they started, but relatively stronger than some of the other families). A time of wolves, I guess
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Aug 16, 2011 17:25
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OperaMouse posted:A time of wolves, I guess Bran is a magical loving tree. Of course they're coming back.
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Aug 16, 2011 17:36
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JerkyBunion posted:Bran is a magical loving tree. Of course they're coming back. Did anyone else get the impression that Jojen saw something in a greendream that he really did not like? Meera says something about how he's depressed and wants to go home but the greendreams never lie. Seems like Bran's either going to get set up to become so powerful that he can change the predictions of the greendreams or, more fitting of Martin's writing, they're going to be stuck in the cave forever. Meera and Jojen will die there, and Bran will only influence the on goings of Westeros from whatever he can warg into from the cave.
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Aug 16, 2011 17:57
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OperaMouse posted:A time of wolves, I guess A Time For Wolves is so much more badass than A Dream Of Spring.
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Aug 16, 2011 17:58
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JerkyBunion posted:Bran is a magical loving tree. Of course they're coming back. Y'know, I almost wish I had ventured into the bad thread when I was reading the first couple of books, because stuff like this would have had me think I was being hosed with. Pretty much everything from book 3+ is so detached from any kind of predictions I had that it would have been hilarious. Also, I picked up volume 2 of the art of ASOIAF, it's not bad at all. I wish the first volume wasn't so stupidly priced everywhere. 
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Aug 16, 2011 18:06
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Mr Crustacean posted:A Time For Wolves is so much more badass than A Dream Of Spring. Seriously. The only thing I can think of is that it sounds too specific to the Starks when he has introduced a lot of other characters since then. Plus maybe he decided he wanted to keep loving over the Starks even in the last book.
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Aug 16, 2011 19:08
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I only dislike 'The Winds of Winter' since it doesn't fit with the rest of the books, nor with the overarching title. I don't really care about A Time For Wolves.
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Aug 16, 2011 19:12
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KillRoy posted:All I can think of is Jaime with a claw hand screaming "I'm a monster!" And I can't stop laughing. Great. Now I'm always gonna imagine Jaime pushing Bran out the window and saying "And THAT'S why you shouldn't climb towers"
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Aug 16, 2011 19:35
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Kainser posted:I honestly wonder why Roose is keeping Ramsay around. There seems to be a lot of Northmen who are all "Eh, Roose is pretty bad but not bad enough to resist I guess, but his heir is loving insane He straight up say that the reason he doesn't have Ramsay killed is because he (Roose) is too old, and if he gets his wife pregnant again he'll die before his son is a man grown. I can't remember if he says the Boltons have never had a boy lord, but I do know he says that he thinks a boy lord would be worse than Ramsay.
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Aug 16, 2011 19:56
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He doesn't mention any precedent, just says something along the lines of a boy lord is the bane of any house. Honestly, I think Roose is just worried that a kid wouldn't meet the Dreadfort's psycho torture quota. He doesn't seem to disapprove of anything Ramsay does besides getting caught.
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Aug 16, 2011 20:31
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bouncyman posted:Did anyone else get the impression that Jojen saw something in a greendream that he really did not like? Meera says something about how he's depressed and wants to go home but the greendreams never lie. Seems like Bran's either going to get set up to become so powerful that he can change the predictions of the greendreams or, more fitting of Martin's writing, they're going to be stuck in the cave forever. Meera and Jojen will die there, and Bran will only influence the on goings of Westeros from whatever he can warg into from the cave. Yeah I don't know about Meera, but I am pretty sure Jojen knows his time is limited now. He's never really specified where / when he knows he's going to die, just says that it's "not today" and now he doesn't say that anymore, so presumably this could be the right location.
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Aug 16, 2011 22:29
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Got that vibe too. I think he's just waiting for it to happen now.
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Aug 16, 2011 22:33
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Mogadishu posted:He doesn't mention any precedent, just says something along the lines of a boy lord is the bane of any house. Crazy lil' Rickon Stark is going to be Exhibit A to this rule of thumb.
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Aug 16, 2011 22:38
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I think you mean mass-murdering invincible Warlord-King of the North Rickon Stark will be the exception that proves the rule.  I'm just saying, Shaggydog don't take no poo poo.
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Aug 16, 2011 22:44
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Theoretically, without abdication, Winterfell would be ruled by a magical loving tree.
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Aug 16, 2011 22:48
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Just finished Dance last night, like almost everyone else a little disappointed with the Daenerys ending, but overall I thought the book was pretty drat good. Not Storm of Swords good, but still pretty awesome. I would have liked more Davos and more Jaime chapters, but what we got was pretty sweet. In the final book the dragon riding team of Daenerys Aegon and Victarion burn up Zombie Jon and his invading horde of White Walkers. Everything is going well for a few years until Daenerys finally goes full Mad Queen and starts burning everyone to death. Best bros Rickon the Wolf and Tommen the goofy yet gallant pull a Ned and Robert and rebel. Bran wins the war by skinchanging into Drogon from thousands of miles away.
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Aug 17, 2011 00:14
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So I avoided this thread and just finished the book. Why did Jon suddenly betray everyone? Like he was so carefull to do the honorable thing and not really betray his vows for the entire book, letting the wildlings pass was the right thing to do, and bolstering the watch an re-manning the castles was the best thing for the watch. The whole arc is about how just and careful he was being, then suddenly in the span of 2 pages he decides to forgo his vows, lead a wildling army to Winterfell, and prove everyone's invalid (up to the last page) suspicions. With all he had lost, why did he turn his cloak just because Ramsey taunted him. It didn't make any sense, it was like GRRM just changed his mind at the last second. He didn't even explain why Jon did it, just said 'they talked for hours'. When you delve into a characters reasoning's and ideals for hundreds of pages, and then just pull a 180 suddenly with no thought put into it. I don't know it seems stupid and not in the typical style for GRRM. How can you have a first person viewpoint with so much introspection turn out wrong? --- Bill loves sandwiches, all his life he'd dreamt of having a sandwich. "I cant wait for that sandwich", Billl thought. The waitress said, "What will it be Bill?" "A salad please". The last thing Bill thought as the knife entered his face was 'I hate sandwiches'. Umph fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Aug 17, 2011 |
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Aug 17, 2011 00:21
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Umph posted:
Welcome to the ADWD thread! You'll fit in just fine here.
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Aug 17, 2011 00:23
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Umph posted:Why did Jon suddenly betray everyone? Like he was so carefull to do the honorable thing and not really betray his vows for the entire book When you ask it so blatantly I think it becomes sort of clear that GRRM was up to something here.
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Aug 17, 2011 00:29
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I don't know. I think there's at least some argument to be made that Ramsay's letter constituted an attack on the watch and the realm. After all, the Watch is sworn to protect the realms of men. It's kind of like in a spy novel, when the corrupt President orders the spy to kill the valiant bureaucrat who uncovered the plot to sell the nation to the wall street bankers (some of this may be true), and the spy turns, and just before he shoots the President who is looking at him like WTF he says, "All enemies, foreign... and domestic." And then he sits down, next to the corpse of the now-dead president, reaches for a glass of scotch, and just as he's about to make another quip, he knocks the glass to the floor with his solid gold hand. Foiled again!
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Aug 17, 2011 00:33
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Putin It In Mah rear end posted:When you ask it so blatantly I think it becomes sort of clear that GRRM was up to something here. God damnit Ill go re-read it But, John was surprised and in pain so surely he didn't know he was being stabbed before hand. Bowen was crying so surely it wasn't an act, and uh.. gently caress I don't know, I hate people who instantly recognize weird plot tricks. I bet it's obvious to everyone but me in the thread that it was a fake out right?
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Aug 17, 2011 00:35
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Umph posted:God damnit Ill go re-read it It almost has to be. There's too much foreshadowing of the whole warging-on-death thing, Melisandre's visions, Jon conveniently being the 998th commander of the Watch (  says someone else becomes 999 and then he mysteriously reappears to become the 1000th), and a number of other things.
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Aug 17, 2011 00:54
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I'm glad that GRRM is sparing no part of Westeros. Aegon is closing in on one end, and the ironborn are ravaging the other. The southlands are so hosed. Here's hoping that Dorne descends into civil war. I also hope he picks up that thread he dangled in the first book--Tyrion armed all those hill clans, and I hope they take out the Vale.
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Aug 17, 2011 01:48
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I'm rereading ASoS and they're already loving over the Vale. You just don't hear as much about it because it's so secluded.
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Aug 17, 2011 01:55
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oogyboogs posted:I'm glad that GRRM is sparing no part of Westeros. Aegon is closing in on one end, and the ironborn are ravaging the other. The southlands are so hosed. Here's hoping that Dorne descends into civil war. I also hope he picks up that thread he dangled in the first book--Tyrion armed all those hill clans, and I hope they take out the Vale. Why would Dorne descend into civil war? They're all on the same page now.
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Aug 17, 2011 01:58
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Just finished Adwd and my god what a clusterfuck. All in all it's a very incoherent and confusing book. Maybe I'm dumb, but there are a number of character plot lines I can't make sense of in my head: - Melisandre. Didn't she want to summon a dragon? Didn't she need royal blood for that? Because at some point she seems to forget. She doesn't prevent Edric Storm from leaving Dragonstone. She doesn't kill Mance or use his blood, instead she sends him to, huhhhhhhh. And Martin seems uncertain about her: sometimes she looks sneaky but honestly willing to help Jon, other times she's evil and just doesn't give a gently caress, and occasionally she just looks dumb misinterpreting her visions while the reader knows what is actually going on (a girl on a grey horse). - Quentyn Martell. Who cares? Pages and pages and pages of descriptions of the Elephant Taxis and his uninteresting companions, only to make him die like an idiot. Worse, we know (or imagine) that his quest is pointless from the start, and Martin doesn't help by describing him as charmless and bland as often as he fuckin possibly can. - Jon Snow. Ah, the much honored Stark tradition of ignoring your direwolf when he flips the gently caress out. Anyone seeing a trend here? - Daenerys. She goes in and out of character the whole book. At the beginning she's fed up with Meereen and wants to leave, but when she's offered ships to Westeros (her dream since she was a child) she refuses out of nowhere. A lame, lame "the author hasn't decided what she's gonna do next yet" moment if you ask me. She stays and shows some erratic behavior (I don't think I ever found Daenerys annoying before, but thanks Martin), until Drogon shows up and she flies away. Seriously?
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Aug 17, 2011 02:00
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As much as I like the Aegon Targaryen plotline, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, I'm a little upset that this kid comes out of loving nowhere without any kind of hints in the previous book that Rhaegar's son (Aegon, not Jon) isn't dead. Hey come to think of it, Rhaegar's son Aegon didn't die, maybe Jon Snow won't either.
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Aug 17, 2011 02:05
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Yeah I enjoyed reading it but looking back it had some pretty glaring flaws and I think it's a sign that he's lost his direction. I doubt we'll be seeing any new content if it took him this long to write a book that goes nowhere. Like, the book was strong but the last 4 chapters just loving ruined it. If I had been GRRMS editor: -Quenton shouldn't have have had chapters. Just write him into the story from Dannys perspective. gently caress off with the bluballs on the Wintefell battle~ What a loving rear end in a top hat that we get no resolution whatsoever on a battle they build up the entire book. And Danny... Barristan leads the army into the camps, and when all looks lost, BAM~ Danny comes rollin up on Drago and fire/blood. Instead we get an arc from nowhere to nowhere, a battle we don't see that is built up over 10 years of books, and danny flopping around in a stream pooing herself. That's right, the major ending conflict after Danny tames Drago is she gets a tummy ache from some berries and then rolls around for a few hours. I almost wish the book hadn't come out. Paino posted:(I don't think I ever found Daenerys annoying before, but thanks Martin) Even Tyrion speands the whole book going somewhere but never getting there. It's nice to know he had a happy childhood of tumbling and somersaulting apparently. Tyrion falling off a pig sums up the whole book really. Every character in the book tries and fails to do something. Ok ill stop, I did enjoy it untill the end. gently caress you grrm. Umph fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Aug 17, 2011 |
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Aug 17, 2011 03:00
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Jon's decision is perfectly understandable. His internal thoughts about going south aren't about the watch or protecting them, it's about arya. The dudes been watching his family die from afar for 5 books now. Now he's given a chance to save the sister he thought was dead, the one he was closest to, the last as far as he knows. This time it isn't happening thousands of miles away or before he knows about it, and there aren't armies and other forces that can intervene anymore. With Stannis "dead", he's the only person left who can do anything. The guy just reached his limit.
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Aug 17, 2011 03:06
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