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Tran posted:It's just a matter of picking the one that gives the best chance of remaining a serious nation at the end of this. There's no reason to actually want House Kurita to stand. I think seeing a Successor State fall would be supremely interesting.
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Aug 18, 2011 19:13
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Hob_Gadling posted:There's no reason to actually want House Kurita to stand. I think seeing a Successor State fall would be supremely interesting. We need the Combine standing to form the Federated Combine. The Kurita-Davions will unite the Inner Sphere!
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Aug 18, 2011 19:17
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KnoxZone posted:We need the Combine standing to form the Federated Combine. The Kurita-Davions will unite the Inner Sphere! Only if Theodore marries Katrina and cuts off Victors head in a fit of rage!
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Aug 18, 2011 19:19
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Tran posted:You try to negotiate from a position of weakness, with from what I gather is one of the shrewdest men in this series, and you're going to end up with nothing. The yakuza buy time, and any lance that sees combat and survives against this foe will very quickly gain a reputation as seasoned veterans. The options for Kurita all suck. It's just a matter of picking the one that gives the best chance of remaining a serious nation at the end of this. The Yakuza buy you nothing you don't already have. That's the thing. Pilots are not in short supply here, 'Mechs are. Your Samurai warriors can buy you time, too, if time is all you need! Neither of them are going to be pulling off victories regularly enough to make a difference. Putting gangsters in cockpits at this juncture in time makes no sense. It would take them at least a few years of training just to get up to Inner Sphere standards of 'mech piloting - Gunnery 4, Piloting 5. You don't have years to spend training gangsters and mobsters using 'mechs when you need 'mechs out there right now, and already have trained pilots who are probably more experienced than those gangsters will be in a few years. Hanse is shrewd, yes. He's also shrewd enough to know that if the Combine falls, his own state is next on the Clan's hit-list. It is in his best interests to give the Combine the support they want, so that all of the hard fighting takes place in the Combine. The Combine is stuck between the proverbial rock and the proverbial hard place. Putting gangsters in 'mechs isn't a solution, it's a red herring. You need more Mechwarriors and more Mechs, and gangsters get you none of the first and cost you some of the last. The yakuza can be useful to the Dragon in this fight, but not as the Ghost Regiments. You want to put them to use? Put them to use using their strengths; blending in and sabotage. Make it unsafe for a Clan Dropship to land on any Draconis Combine world because it's likely to find a vast quantity of explosives tucked in an engine cowling when it tries to launch. Hell, draft them into the DCMS as infiltrators, sabotuers and special forces if you have such a hard-on for space gangsters, but making them MechWarriors is the wrong move right now. You have MechWarriors, more of them than you have 'Mechs. Adding untrained MechWarriors to your pilot pool gets you nothing except the bad will of the MechWarriors you already have. And frankly, if you had enough gangsters who were already ferociously experienced MechWarriors, ready to jump into the cockpit and put the boots to Clanner rear end, that might be worth it. But unless you can conjure the Ghost Regiments that existed as of 3050 out of thin air in the PTN timeline, it's going to be worse than useless.
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Aug 18, 2011 19:20
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I don't understand why people are voting for creating the "Ghost Legions". Like others have said, the Yukuza have no experience controlling battlemechs and will simply be cannon fodder, wasting mechs they really can't afford to lose. At least they can talk with Hanse Davion, and take back any concessions later after the Clans are possibly dealt with. In comparison, the Clans really aren't interested in talking to them, just shooting them. Moving on to another subject... Hob_Gadling posted:There's no reason to actually want House Kurita to stand. I think seeing a Successor State fall would be supremely interesting. My initial joke vote was T1, and I too am interested in seeing that. However, the numbers say it is not to be, at least directly.
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Aug 18, 2011 19:27
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I just noticed that the map shows the progress of the Davion and Capellan offensives. It is a lot more subtle compared to the huge tracts of land being seized by the clans, but it is there. Little details like this are why I love this LP.
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Aug 18, 2011 19:28
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One idea to throw out there for those arguing against the Ghost regiments. Why not post the yakuza on the Fedsuns border and move your line troops against the Clans? The yakuza get to face more conventional troops and you can throw your more experienced guys against the bigger threat.
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Aug 18, 2011 19:38
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I'm afraid ShadowDragon and landcollector are operating under some understandable misconceptions. The yakuza already has MechWarriors, and had them canonically long before the Ghost regiments were formed in secret. What they lacked was organization and a reason to serve the state. In this timeline, their fanatical resistance to an invader that truly threatens the existence of the Dragon would be most valuable, and their irregular nature is, I would argue, an advantage against the Clans - the samurai mindset plays to the Clanners' greatest strengths. The following is speculation, but I wonder if Teddy has actually already organized some Ghost forces here and is seeking justification/permission for showing them.
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Aug 18, 2011 19:39
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PoptartsNinja posted:Political Vote 5 (Clovis Lestrade):
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Aug 18, 2011 19:41
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The Merry Marauder posted:I'm afraid ShadowDragon and landcollector are operating under some understandable misconceptions. Like I said, my knowledge of IS specific lore is iffy. However, even if some yakuza are already trained, unless all of those trained yukuza come with matching mechs their usefulness is still questionable. Manpower is not really an issue here, it's the lack of machines instead.
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Aug 18, 2011 19:57
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Hanse is more than shrewd enough to realize that it would take the Clans a very long time to get through the Combine and that they we will be weakened by the conquest, since the Dracs will fight for every world on the way. He's also more than shrewd enough to use the excuse of 'sending mercenaries to assist' as a ploy to get his troops into key positions to ambush the weakened defenses on the FS/DC front and gobble up a large chunk of Combine space. And Comstar's preoccupation with the Clan threat means their previous threat of interdiction (from the first political vote) is even less of a concern for stopping his conquests. I don't think the Combine is falling anywhere near fast enough to convince Hanse that the Clans are an existential threat to him (and he's probably right!)
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Aug 18, 2011 20:00
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landcollector posted:Like I said, my knowledge of IS specific lore is iffy. However, even if some yakuza are already trained, unless all of those trained yukuza come with matching mechs their usefulness is still questionable. Manpower is not really an issue here, it's the lack of machines instead. They have Mechs, too. Not very good ones, I suspect, but hey, it's the Combine. The yaks have (small) private armies - but with the acceptance of the Dragon, those small units could be formed into a large useful body of very pragmatic fighters. UberJew posted:Hanse is more than shrewd enough to realize that it would take the Clans a very long time to get through the Combine and that they we will be weakened by the conquest, since the Dracs will fight for every world on the way. So, your thinking is that Hanse's canonical assistance on Luthien was because of the Clan threat to the Lyran half of the FedCom, which is not an issue here? If so, I can buy that, I think.
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Aug 18, 2011 20:08
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landcollector posted:Like I said, my knowledge of IS specific lore is iffy. However, even if some yakuza are already trained, unless all of those trained yukuza come with matching mechs their usefulness is still questionable. Manpower is not really an issue here, it's the lack of machines instead. I think it's long term versus short term. In the short term, pulling all your guys out of the Davion zone or getting merc support will help slow the bleeding. But as constituted, the DCMS is going to lose to the Clans. The traditional Kurita regiments are going to fight the Clans just the way the Clans want to be fought...one on one in "honorable" duels. Except the Kurita guys are going to do it in worse 'mechs with worse pilots. However, if you can get a force of Kurita guys willing to take advantage of the Clan honor codes, who already have some mechwarrior skills, and who just need more organization and more 'mechs? In the long term, that's much more valuable. So you play it like Russia in World War II. You sacrifice your older regiments and give up space in order to buy time to raise new regiments and to train them in new tactics. Tactics that will be much easier to learn for the Yakuza than they will be for the Samurai, because the Yakuza haven't got centuries of tradition to unlearn. You're right, if all you do is assemble the Ghosts and throw them untrained into the fire, you're going to be even worse off. But if you let Theo take the time to train them properly, to learn how to focus fire and hit and run and hell, if it comes down to it, use brute force wars of attrition against the Clans, they could have a chance. They'll lose a lot of worlds before the Ghosts are ready, but to survive in the long term, they must install a new culture into the DCMS, and you can't do that with mercs. Getting the mercs might win you a battle or two. Taking the time to properly establish the Ghost Legions might win the war. jng2058 fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Aug 18, 2011 |
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Aug 18, 2011 20:08
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C1 R4 T5 These choices all seem to provide the most chances for fun poo poo to happen.
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Aug 18, 2011 20:29
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The Merry Marauder posted:So, your thinking is that Hanse's canonical assistance on Luthien was because of the Clan threat to the Lyran half of the FedCom, which is not an issue here?
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Aug 18, 2011 20:33
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We actually see into Hanse, and most other characters', thoughts in the Warrior trilogy, because Stackpole is terrible that way. His assistance wasn't because of the LC, it was because he was worried his buffer zone with the Clans was going to disintegrate.
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Aug 18, 2011 20:43
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I've got a question regarding the idea of the Draconis Combine losing to the Clans by following along with the whole "one-on-one honor duels" thing. Back on Somerset, the Steel Vipers were issuing challenges and also attaching self-imposed handicaps on them; like the guy who bid away the weapons on one of his arms, only to have his remaining arm blown off, leaving him unable to continue the battle. Do Clanners normally do that kind of thing when they issue formal challenges, or were the Vipers just bored and trying to show off? And if they did pull that in a duel against a Draconis Samurai, would the Samurai be likely to handicap himself in a similar fashion in a misguided attempt to not appear weak, or would they be smart enough to allow the Clanners' to handicap themselves and exploit whatever minute advantage it gives them?
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Aug 18, 2011 20:47
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The Draconis Samurai wouldn't know that the Clanner would bid away gear for more honour, he'd just stand up and dare someone to have a go if they think they're hard enough.
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Aug 18, 2011 20:53
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W.T. Fits posted:I've got a question regarding the idea of the Draconis Combine losing to the Clans by following along with the whole "one-on-one honor duels" thing. Generally, yes, Clanners handicap themselves in some way when facing an inferior opponent. If I am piloting a Masakari and I run into a pair of Ullers, I'm not going to challenge one Uller, I'm going to challenge both. Being a Clanner is all about dick-waving and you don't get to do that by beating up smaller or inferior machines one at a time. As for the Combine guy... well, depends on how stupid he is. A smarter guy, like Minobu Tetsuhara (PTN, please tell me he's still alive, since there's no Dragoons!) would see that as an opportunity to teach them not to underestimate him. A dumb guy, like Samsonov, would probably demand they take it back.
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Aug 18, 2011 20:54
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ShadowDragon8685 posted:Hanse is shrewd, yes. He's also shrewd enough to know that if the Combine falls, his own state is next on the Clan's hit-list. It is in his best interests to give the Combine the support they want, so that all of the hard fighting takes place in the Combine. The problem there is that it assumes Hanse has a lot more awareness of the Clan threat than he likely has. Remember in this continuity there's no Dragoons to clue in the IS and the Suns stand alone, meaning thus far they have zero direct contact with the Clans. The Houses that are in the process of fighting the Clans themselves don't even have a strong sense of the threat - there's no reason why Hanse, wily as he is, would. The options presented basically consist of: T1: Die. T2: Die. T3: Die. T4: Die. T5: Have a shot at not dying. Not much of a choice there.
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Aug 18, 2011 21:09
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Defiance Industries posted:Minobu Tetsuhara (PTN, please tell me he's still alive, since there's no Dragoons!)
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Aug 18, 2011 21:49
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I think it's not necessary to make choices based on trying to keep the clans or the IS from losing or winning. I think the highest priority is to pick a choice that you think will be interesting, or lead to interesting things. I realize a few people are rooting for their favorite faction, but in the long run what we all want is interesting mech fights, interesting plot development, and perhaps some interesting characters. Which way the war goes isn't really all that decisive for any of the above. That's why voting for the ghost yakuza is the right choice; ghost yakuza makes the faction more interesting and increases the storytelling possibilities. I think. Maybe.
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Aug 18, 2011 21:55
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Well I like to think everybody is trying to accomplish something. For instance, I'd like to see Aldo Lestrade humiliated and dead! Federated Combine would own too, but sadly I think any collusion at this juncture would just lead to a Hanse backstab and thus make it less likely for the Federated Combine to come into being. So go Yakuza
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Aug 18, 2011 21:58
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C2 R3 T4
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Aug 18, 2011 22:09
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C2 R3 T4 gently caress Lestrade, gently caress Comstar, Get hosed by Hanse. These are my
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Aug 18, 2011 22:16
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C1 R3 T5 Ghost legions sound like fun.
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Aug 18, 2011 22:23
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Political Vote 5 (Clovis Lestrade): C2) Marry Jenna Clay on Tharkad. The only benefit I see to holding the wedding on Summer is that it buys time for our Red Corsair to escape and reappear. "I'm not really Melissa." "Oh yeah, you look like her. So where's the real one it you're a fake, huh?" "... uhh." Is much less effective than. "I'm not really Melissa." "Oh yeah, you look like her. So where's the real one it you're a fake, huh?" *Kaboom* "Right here motherfuckers! Meet Mister Gauss Cannon." Political Vote 5 (Red Corsair): R3) Assist the Free Worlders in repelling the fake Red Corsair pirates. We run the risk of losing control of the LosTech to the Free Worlders, but it'll be easier to negotiate with them over it than ComStar. Especially if we've just saved their bacon. Political Vote 5 (Takashi Kurita): T5) Tattooed MechWarriors. If the yaks have Mechs and pilots to add to the fight, there's our best option. Otherwise, T4, so we can have a throwback to our first scenario.
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Aug 18, 2011 22:24
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PoptartsNinja posted:
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Aug 18, 2011 22:30
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I cannot help but find this whole "why would you want the Ghost Legions?" thing kinda funny. I mean, I can't speak for anyone else, but I want to see it happen because it would be awesome. Is it the best long-term strategic thinking? Hell, I don't know; it's not as though plans survive first contact with I am a proponent of following the Rule of Cool in this kind of decision-making process. Whatever would be coolest is the correct choice, regardless of long-term ramifications, because Cool is an inherently desirable aim in and of itself.
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Aug 18, 2011 22:34
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You know, something's just occurred to me. Clanners just freaking love their duels, right? The 'mechs are not, strictly speaking, necessary. The Combine can win this with their Samurai. They just need to start challenging the Clanners to unaugmented duels with swords. The only problem I see with this is Elementals, but I reckon a highly-trained swordsman has a reasonable chance against an untrained Elemental with a sword. Better than he'd have in an inferior 'mech, anyway.
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Aug 18, 2011 23:11
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ShadowDragon8685 posted:You know, something's just occurred to me. Clanners have their own rules for duels like that as well, which would still put Inner Sphere fighters at a disadvantage. For one thing, a Trueborn mechwarrior still tends to be physically superior to a normal human. For another, most of those duels use something called a Medusa Whip, or something like that. Also I'm really not sure here, but I believe those kinds of duels are always used to resolve inner-clan conflict, not conflict with enemies outside the clan.
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Aug 18, 2011 23:25
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They use it outside their Clan sometimes, too. Also, live fire trials can be used inside the Clan too, if people want to get real serious. There's seldom hard and fast rules about anything in Clan society because any decision against you can be overturned by beating the poo poo out of someone. Defiance Industries fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Aug 18, 2011 |
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Aug 18, 2011 23:27
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One time a backwater planet challenged a Clan invasion force to a game of football for the planet! The Clanners bid some Elemental pilots without armor for their team. It was not pretty.
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Aug 18, 2011 23:33
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Zikan posted:One time a backwater planet challenged a Clan invasion force to a game of football for the planet! As I recall, the final score was 84-3.
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Aug 18, 2011 23:33
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Defiance Industries posted:As I recall, the final score was 84-3. If I remember correctly, those 3 points were won with such style that the Clan Ghost Bear Elementals were very impressed, and in the end that planet got off pretty good in terms of being occupied.
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Aug 18, 2011 23:37
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Gothsheep posted:Clanners have their own rules for duels like that as well, which would still put Inner Sphere fighters at a disadvantage. For one thing, a Trueborn mechwarrior still tends to be physically superior to a normal human. For another, most of those duels use something called a Medusa Whip, or something like that. Combine Mechwarriors tend to be physically superior to a normal human, too, what with all their focus on being Samurai, complete with sword arts and physical fitness and such. Do they have the genetic advantage? No, but I think the difference is less than the Clans would like you to believe, and skill would more than make up the difference. Also, you can challenge someone to use whatever weapons you name. For instance, if the Clans declare they have come to challenge you, you can bid (say) three Lances of Samurai on foot with swords. Sure, technically, they could just walk over in a 'mech, but thanks to the Clan's bidding processes, they'd quickly be bid down to men with swords, or even boken. Nobody wants to be the guy who's well-known as a coward for bringing a gun to a swordfight, much less a 'mech. And since BTech is The '80s in Space, a Samurai with a katana in-hand probably stands a not-insignificant chance of killing an Elemental in armor, let alone a MechWarrior without any armor. (Katanas are Just Better, doncha know.) quote:Also I'm really not sure here, but I believe those kinds of duels are always used to resolve inner-clan conflict, not conflict with enemies outside the clan. That's the primary purpose of it, yeah, but not the only purpose. If the Combine bid guys with swords, the Clanners would probably respond with swords of their own, just for the glory. (We took this without 'Mechs! What's the best you've ever done?) Hell, I recall once the Clanners were bidding for something, and the spheroid chose a coin toss as the challenge. The Clanner bid the edge of the coin, with the reasoning "imagine the glory if I had won." This is still the heydey of Clan honor-bidding. You can pull off some spectacular poo poo. landcollector posted:If I remember correctly, those 3 points were won with such style that the Clan Ghost Bear Elementals were very impressed, and in the end that planet got off pretty good in terms of being occupied. I think they took the coach (if not the surviving players) as Bondsmen, too, for impressing the hell out of them.
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Aug 18, 2011 23:49
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ShadowDragon8685 posted:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Bjarred#Operation_Bulldog_and_Return_Combine_Rule So, not exactly a glory bid, just a roll-over-and-die-honourably bid, by my reading.
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Aug 18, 2011 23:56
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Clearly, at some point, we need to have someone challenge a Clanner to a game of Russian Roulette.
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Aug 18, 2011 23:57
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An elite Nekekami commando once challenged an unarmored Elemental to a swordfight. The Elemental won.
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Aug 18, 2011 23:59
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It is generally unwise to fight small mountains with swords. Elementals are the most drastically enhanced strain of clanner
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Aug 19, 2011 00:01
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