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Paino posted:Has anyone ever discussed Martin's amputation fetish? It's less of a fetish and more of a way of making you feel sympathetic towards characters without killing them off.
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Aug 19, 2011 19:35
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Rootbeer Baron posted:It's less of a fetish and more of a way of making you feel sympathetic towards characters without killing them off. yeah but almost everyone seems to lose a limb sooner or later
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Aug 19, 2011 19:40
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To be fair, I think it's fitting for the time period this is supposedly set in.
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Aug 19, 2011 19:42
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Paino posted:It seems to me that in Westeros, even when you don't die, someone will take the liberty of cutting you the gently caress up. Kind of like Midieval times in general?
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Aug 19, 2011 19:45
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Paino posted:Has anyone ever discussed Martin's amputation fetish? In an era when medical technology isn't at its finest and minor infections can gently caress you up real good, not to mention the fact that there's a war going on, that eunuches are an acceptable thing, cutting out tongues/body parts is appropriate punishment, etc... - this seems a fairly paltry list.
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Aug 19, 2011 20:14
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Habibi posted:In an era when medical technology isn't at its finest and minor infections can gently caress you up real good, not to mention the fact that there's a war going on, that eunuches are an acceptable thing, cutting out tongues/body parts is appropriate punishment, etc... - this seems a fairly paltry list. Agreed. Infant mortality should also be much higher, we don't hear about Catelyn's other nine children who died before their first nameday. People also live too long. I had actually assumed until late in the series that one of the Fantasy aspects of the series would be that disease was nearly nonexistent, because the average life expectancy seems quite high. But I guess "Maesters." Who cares, we like this series for the insanity, not the rigorous historical accuracy.
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Aug 19, 2011 21:11
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A red priest did it.
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Aug 19, 2011 21:16
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Calef posted:Agreed. Infant mortality should also be much higher, we don't hear about Catelyn's other nine children who died before their first nameday. Probably because no one wants to hear that poo poo after listening to Lysa cry about it.
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Aug 20, 2011 00:27
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Calef posted:Agreed. Infant mortality should also be much higher, we don't hear about Catelyn's other nine children who died before their first nameday. Also, most of the people we meet are high-born, who have access to adequate amounts of high-quality food and shelter and medical attention. I'll bet people from Flea Bottom have infant mortality rates more in line with our medieval era. Plus, we're coming out of a decade or two of gentle weather and generous harvests, so the sort of things that kill infants haven't been particularly prevalent in anyone's memory. North of The Wall, infant mortality is a big enough issue that Wildings don't bother naming their kids until their second birthday.
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Aug 20, 2011 11:08
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FMguru posted:
Yeah, it's one of the things Varis points out/lampshades in the first novel that the vast majority of viewpoint characters are highborn and have access to things the lower classes simply do not (plenty of food, maesters, medicine, proper sanitation, roofs over their heads, etc.) and things are a lot worse for the peasants, who just get caught up in the big War of Five Kings and don't see the protagonists as much better than the antagonists when they both have renegade soldiers raping and pillaging to their hearts content. There was also one of Old Nan's morbid stories about babies freezing to death in their mothers arms in the dead of long winters having never known a day of summer. That line always stuck with me throughout the series and constantly had me thinking ahead "as bad as poo poo's been it's about to get MUCH worse when Winter eventually rolls around."
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Aug 20, 2011 21:44
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Also, I'm rereading Feast for Crows right now and in the first (only? IIRC, Feast's POV chapters weren't as consistently distributed as the others') Aeron chapter he talks about how his father had sired nine children, but two died in infancy.
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Aug 20, 2011 22:52
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Mad Hamish posted:Until he ends up killing himself. After all, Renly wouldn't want to see him like this. "You found me beautiful once!" Thorne took the moving hand to King's Landing, but by the time he got there, the flesh had all rotted away and it was just a skeleton and wasn't moving. I guess it's possible that it had gone far enough south to get out of the "magical influence" of the Others, but it could also be that while life can be restored to something dead, it still requires the muscles to actually make it move. Haraksha's Varys Theory Varys doesn't care about Targaryans. If they really were all dead, he wouldn't give a poo poo. He would just alter his plans accordingly, and given that we can't prove Aegon really is a Targ, he may have already. He never intended Viserys to take the throne. He never intended for Dany to live this long. The whole point of Viserys and Dany was to distract Robert and the realm. He always kept them around as shadows as a constant reminder to Robert that his power could be threatened, but he was never going to let them conquer Westeros and Dany was never meant to see it. In fact, Varys himself sent the order to kill Dany. So what was the point? As has been mentioned, it was a well thought out subterfuge. Dany and Viserys were distractions only. As long as Robert was focused on them, he would never even begin to wonder if there was another far more dangerous threat. Let Robert think that he's killed off the only rivals to the throne, and then drop Aegon on his coast when he's least expecting it. I know Robert talked about how meeting the Dothraki in battle would have been foolish, but the book never gives us reason to think this is true. Every time an armored knight has fought someone unarmored who wasn't used to fighting someone armored, they died hilariously. Bronn is the only one who ever won that kind of fight, but that was because he knew the weaknesses of men in full armor. It doesn't matter to Varys if Aegon really is a Targ or not. The point is to put a stable ruler on the throne. He can't just have some random dude show up and say, "I'm king now." The noble houses would unite against them. But so long as it's a "Targ", it gives legitimacy to the cause. People will accept that and it creates a chance to actually get his man on the throne. This was the whole point of betrothing a Dornish princess to Viserys. Viserys, dead, still ties their houses together. The Martells are still trying to work with them. But Dany living has hosed everything up. When Ilyrio and Varys talked beneath the Red Keep about not being ready yet, they're weren't discussing Viserys or Dany and their horde of Dothraki. They were talking about Aegon and the Golden Company. They probably wanted to wait a few more years for Aegon to reach maturity, but events moved passed them (and this can largely be blamed on Littlefinger), so now they're being as reactionary as everyone else. Instead of a calm, patient conqueror, they have a boy demanding to lead the vanguard into battle personally. "Uh, I guess marry Aegon to Dany to get the dragons?" But we saw this didn't work. They've partially lost control of Aegon, Quentyn died trying to honor the agreement, and now things might get totally hosed because of it. Varys killing Kevan was probably a last ditch effort to help Aegon actually succeed because he would never have stood a chance against a stable Lannister dynasty. The original plan was probably to have poisoned Dany to get the Dothraki enraged enough to cross the sea. While they would have been devastating to the land, Robert would have been forced to meet them in battle, and I have no reason to think that they would have stood up to heavy cavalry and armored soldiers. With Viserys and Dany dead, Robert would have gone back to lick his wounds while thinking that the threat was finally at rest. Or maybe Varys would have seen to it that Robert would have died in this war. Remember, the Lannister-Stark conflict was entirely manufactured by Littlefinger through the letter to Cat from Lysa. But if Robert had died then rather than when he did, it could have started the succession wars right as Aegon was getting ready to ambush the whole continent. So to summarize, Varys doesn't care about a particular dynasty. He cares about stability. Aegon being a Targ gives him credibility and a chance to actually hold the throne. Assuming that Aegon is a good king, he could raise his children, who would also be legitimate heirs, to be good kings as well. This would provide at least a couple of generations of stability to the realm, or long enough to defeat the threat of the Others and then it wouldn't really matter again for another 3000 years. Atlas Hugged fucked around with this message at 04:02 on Aug 21, 2011 |
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Aug 21, 2011 04:00
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Nice post, really well said. And I agree that he only cares about stability - hence his profession that he serves the realm; the realm is best served by stability and peace.
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Aug 21, 2011 04:45
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Mahlertov Cocktail posted:Also, I'm rereading Feast for Crows right now and in the first (only? IIRC, Feast's POV chapters weren't as consistently distributed as the others') Aeron chapter he talks about how his father had sired nine children, but two died in infancy. I also think it's a GRRM style issue. It's hard enough keeping track of all these extended families (even with the lists in the back), giving every couple a handful of dead babies would just make a confusing narrative even more so, without adding much in return.
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Aug 21, 2011 06:53
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Mahlertov Cocktail posted:Nice post, really well said. And I agree that he only cares about stability - hence his profession that he serves the realm; the realm is best served by stability and peace. Then he should probably stop killing people who are stabilizing the realm.
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Aug 21, 2011 07:44
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TWoW stuff, so I'm going err on the side of caution and use spoilers. I read a synopsis of the Arianne chapter and the vibe I and others on westeros.org was that Arianne's gonna try and seduce Aegon into marrying her instead. At the end of the chapter she hears that Storm's End has fallen, and goes off to "Meet with this dragon." I don't imagine she'll end up like her (poor bastard) brother, but I'm curious to see how this would play out. Like every other ray of hope for the "good" guys, I'm sure Aegon's power play is going to end in disaster for all involved. That or GRRM's going to subvert the expected subversion, and Aegon will end up on the throne with Arianne and Dany won't mean poo poo. In fact, I think I'd prefer the latter.
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Aug 21, 2011 08:20
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Haraksha posted:He never intended Viserys to take the throne. He never intended for Dany to live this long. The whole point of Viserys and Dany was to distract Robert and the realm. He always kept them around as shadows as a constant reminder to Robert that his power could be threatened, but he was never going to let them conquer Westeros and Dany was never meant to see it. In fact, Varys himself sent the order to kill Dany. But Robert was never concentrating on anything except whores and wine so I don't see how it was necessary to "distract" him. I mean really you think Illyrio had the leader of the most powerful Khalasar pay him a vist, married him a Targaryen, and gave Dany 3 priceless dragon eggs to "distract" a drunken nitwit like Robert? I fail to see how this subterfuge accomplished anything, Robert thought Aegon died 16 years earlier so he wasn't looking for him. Also the theoretical threat of the Dothraki was not from their Arrakhs but from their bows. Dothraki learn to shoot from horseback at age 4. There's plenty of historical examples of western armies being massacred by mounted archers. For instance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Legnica Rosscifer fucked around with this message at 08:51 on Aug 21, 2011 |
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Aug 21, 2011 08:34
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Aurubin posted:That or GRRM's going to subvert the expected subversion, and Aegon will end up on the throne with Arianne and Dany won't mean poo poo. In fact, I think I'd prefer the latter. If Dany never winds up on the throne and only turns up to help repel the Others, this would be fine by me, and would make more sense than her taking the Throne for anyone who has been paying attention to Dany's motivations. hampig fucked around with this message at 09:02 on Aug 21, 2011 |
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Aug 21, 2011 08:58
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I always thought he had more of an incest fetish: Cersei and Jaime Cersei and Lancel The Targaryens Craster and his daughters Shae and her father Asha and Theon GRRM must have had one poo poo-hot sister.
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Aug 21, 2011 09:09
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Haraksha posted:In fact, Varys himself sent the order to kill Dany.
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Aug 21, 2011 10:55
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I had a theory about Craster, that in fact he was the one responsible for creating the latest wave of Others. His scenes in the earlier books all mention how he kills boy babies by exposing them to the winter. There's a throwaway line about what this entails, and in a universe where blood magic and all that stuff happens, it stands to reason that years of baby-killing could be a terrible kind of blood magic that resurrects the greatest evil Westeros has ever known. And it would be kinda ironic that the Night's Watch, set up to protect the realms of men, were friends with the guy bringing about their downfall. And maybe Gilly's baby, the only boy baby to survive where all his brothers-cum-Others were sacrificed, turns out to be important to the plot somehow.
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Aug 21, 2011 13:02
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Saul Goode posted:I had a theory about Craster, that in fact he was the one responsible for creating the latest wave of Others. I really like this theory, and would be really into it if it ends up being true. I also enjoy the idea of a totally useless Dany, particularly with how she seems to have been set up as the eventual victor (having dragons and all'. I'm definitely in the 'Dany is batshit' camp and think it would be awesome if by the time she shows up with the dragons she's become as bad as Aerys. After all, if we think of incest as the cause of the Targ insanity, then Aegon, whose mother was Dornish would be less/ unaffected.
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Aug 21, 2011 13:49
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Rosscifer posted:But Robert was never concentrating on anything except whores and wine so I don't see how it was necessary to "distract" him. I mean really you think Illyrio had the leader of the most powerful Khalasar pay him a vist, married him a Targaryen, and gave Dany 3 priceless dragon eggs to "distract" a drunken nitwit like Robert? I fail to see how this subterfuge accomplished anything, Robert thought Aegon died 16 years earlier so he wasn't looking for him. Pretty much everyone in the world we've seen knows about the Targaryens and the Baratheons. If a boy was being raised and told he was the heir to the throne, there's a good chance that sooner or later word will get out. Rumors of a boy Targaryen being raised to retake the throne will float over the ocean sooner or later. So Varys made Viserys that rumored boy, and made it really obvious he was still alive- everyone knew who he was as he tramped around demanding an army to take him home. And as others have said Dany was meant to die so the Dothraki would cause more chaos in Westeros. Finally the dragon eggs were only priceless as relics (nobody believed they would hatch), and certainly not that priceless to Varys who has all the money of Westeros at his disposal.
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Aug 21, 2011 13:57
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Saul Goode posted:I had a theory about Craster, that in fact he was the one responsible for creating the latest wave of Others. The implication was that he doesn't have to worry about the Others because he gives them living sacrifice. There's a pretty telling line somewhere in the books about how he's just not worried about them.
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Aug 21, 2011 14:31
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Its obvious Varys is working with the Devil of the Cold or whoever the gently caress Melisandre is always going on about. The ritual which cost him his junk also put an Other in him. His plan is to soften up Westeros for the coming wight invasion. Really, there is no other justification for his actions.kiph posted:GRRM must have had one poo poo-hot sister.  Yup.
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Aug 21, 2011 14:35
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Unoriginal Name posted:Then he should probably stop killing people who are stabilizing the realm. Stabilizing the realm so the spoiled little Tomen could rule as a pawn for either the Tyrells or the Lannisters? Not going to happen. Iggles posted:And then countermands it He couldn't have known that Jorah wouldn't have followed through. The point was that she didn't need to be alive.
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Aug 21, 2011 14:44
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Irish Joe posted:Its obvious Varys is working with the Devil of the Cold or whoever the gently caress Melisandre is always going on about. The ritual which cost him his junk also put an Other in him. His plan is to soften up Westeros for the coming wight invasion. Really, there is no other justification for his actions. He said sister not brother
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Aug 21, 2011 17:20
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Saul Goode posted:I had a theory about Craster, that in fact he was the one responsible for creating the latest wave of Others.
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Aug 21, 2011 17:45
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I'm hoping Dany realizes the eastern continent is her home and actually supports Aegon as king of the seven kingdoms. After he's in place and the others are burned to a crisp she can take her dragons and liberate the gently caress out of the slave cities. She can go be Dany the conqueror and establish a Targ world dynasty.
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Aug 21, 2011 17:53
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Gangringo posted:I'm hoping Dany realizes the eastern continent is her home and actually supports Aegon as king of the seven kingdoms. After he's in place and the others are burned to a crisp she can take her dragons and liberate the gently caress out of the slave cities. She can go be Dany the conqueror and establish a Targ world dynasty. Hard to establish a dynasty when you're barren.
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Aug 21, 2011 17:59
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Neurosis posted:Hard to establish a dynasty when you're barren. Come on dude think.
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Aug 21, 2011 18:02
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Neurosis posted:Hard to establish a dynasty when you're barren. She's not barren anymore, the prophecy about the seas going dry and the sun setting in the east and poo poo came true and she had her period in between her bout of the shits in her dothraki sea escapades.
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Aug 21, 2011 18:09
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Mr Crustacean posted:She's not barren anymore, the prophecy about the seas going dry and the sun setting in the east and poo poo came true and she had her period in between her bout of the shits in her dothraki sea escapades.
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Aug 21, 2011 18:58
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The Dothraki sea is dry and Quentyn Martell (whose House sigil is a sun) rose in the West and set in the East.
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Aug 21, 2011 19:00
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You know, it's got to be a pretty big blow to your sense of self worth to know that your balls are only worth a long distance phone call. No wonder Varys is kind of peeved. Who knows what would've been if that guy had only had a few dimes to drop in the slot to make the call instead of having to settle for boynuts.
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Aug 21, 2011 19:08
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Quantify! posted:Explain how the prophecy came true! quote:“When will he {Drogo} be as he was?” Dany demanded. My guess is she will get pregnant sooner or later and she will just name her child Drogo.
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Aug 21, 2011 19:37
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Toplowtech posted:The actual prophecy is about Drogo actually. Ah, poo poo I didn't even see that. Of course, I didn't realize Abel was Mance. Also, what is the evidence that Connington is gay? That also flew right past me.
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Aug 21, 2011 21:27
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Kung Fu Jesus posted:Also, what is the evidence that Connington is gay? That also flew right past me. Don't remember the actual quote, but it's something to the effect of him trying to earn Rhaegar's love. To me the quote didn't seem to mean gay butt love, more like trying to earn his respect and esteem, but hey, that's just, my opinion man.
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Aug 21, 2011 22:36
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Kung Fu Jesus posted:Ah, poo poo I didn't even see that. Of course, I didn't realize Abel was Mance. Did you miss that scene with him shaving Rhaegar's chest? Edit: \/\/\/ But Renly and Rhaeger kinda are. 
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Aug 21, 2011 22:36
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Habibi posted:Did you miss that scene with him shaving Renly's chest? Aww cmon now, "Tyrell" and "Connington" aren't even close.
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Aug 21, 2011 22:45
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