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Haha okay I'll concede that Last Action Hero was pretty cool but only because Arnold was in it!
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Aug 21, 2011 18:07
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Platypus Farm posted:Haha okay I'll concede that Last Action Hero was pretty cool but only because Arnold was in it! Ahnuld makes every movie better. But I'm not going to agree completely with you on the over-the-top PARODY MOVIE thing. They don't really do that in Saints Row, it's more like everyone is a hyper-violent sociopath and that's both expected and normal in-universe. They don't crack jokes about it as much as just treat it like everyday life and that's what makes it funny. Think GTA San Andreas, not Meet The Spartans. Hell, one of the last missions of SR2 has Johnny Gat (who is the badass to end all badasses) flip his dead girlfriend out of her coffin at her funeral and bury a rival gang leader alive in it. All handled completely deadpan as if it's the most natural thing in the world. It's a bit hard to explain.
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Aug 21, 2011 18:10
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Man, I love Blood and consider it one of the best FPS games of all time, but it was HELLA over-the-top and tongue-in-cheek. I get your point (as a rabid Saints Row fanboy) but I think it was two different types of over-the-top bullshit. Less Commando vs. (Genre) Movie, more Commando vs. Crank. (also there's not really any 4th wall breaking or winking nods to how dumb this bullshit is in Saints Row games. They play all of this stupid stuff straight.)
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Aug 21, 2011 18:17
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LvK posted:
In the clip linked above, the main character does wink at the audience, drawing attention to how crazy everything is.
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Aug 21, 2011 18:19
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LvK posted:Man, I love Blood and consider it one of the best FPS games of all time, but it was HELLA over-the-top and tongue-in-cheek. I get your point (as a rabid Saints Row fanboy) but I think it was two different types of over-the-top bullshit. Less Commando vs. (Genre) Movie, more Commando vs. Crank. Ah okay, this comparison does make more sense. Whenever 3 comes out, I'll give the series another shot. With 2, I just kept cringing every time something more ridiculous happened. Of course, I also can't stand the RANDOM BADGER DANCING !!!! in Family Guy which is what it all reminded me of. There's a distinct possibility that I've just become Oscar the Grouch in my declining years as well, so I might not be the best metric.
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Aug 21, 2011 18:25
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Platypus Farm posted:Ah okay, this comparison does make more sense. Whenever 3 comes out, I'll give the series another shot. With 2, I just kept cringing every time something more ridiculous happened. Of course, I also can't stand the RANDOM BADGER DANCING !!!! in Family Guy which is what it all reminded me of. There's a distinct possibility that I've just become Oscar the Grouch in my declining years as well, so I might not be the best metric. I think your mileage just varied, since I can't stand Family Guy and Saints Row 2 got me by the balls. Course, it very rarely seemed monkey cheese random to me at all (probably the side missions where you get to spray poop on people are the only ones that gave me that impression). Also instead of finally playing Alien Vendetta (with Brutal Doom on!), I think I'm going to reinstall Blood. That still has the finest architecture I think I've seen in a Build game. Also RE: Shadow Warrior, I have a Chinese-American friend that loves Duke Nukem and has hell of pride in his heritage, usually getting offended when it's mixed up with Japan. He asked me about Shadow Warrior one day, and I kept trying to tell him that it was just uncomfortably racist, citing certain jokes. He laughed at all of the jokes, going "who cares, man? That sounds hilarious!" Then he played it and was so thoroughly offended that he deleted it after four levels. I have to admit that the levels are drat pretty, though, even if I wouldn't actually call them very good.
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Aug 21, 2011 18:34
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Wikipedia Brown posted:In the clip linked above, the main character does wink at the audience, drawing attention to how crazy everything is. I just watched it again, and I can't seem to spot it? Platypus Farm posted:There's a distinct possibility that I've just become Oscar the Grouch in my declining years as well, so I might not be the best metric. You and me both. Most games don't do much for me these days. I've bought all three Humble Indie Bundles because they're mostly quirky little games with a simple concept that you can play casually. But other than that I just want my games to be big dumb fun and stop taking themselves so seriously. Just Cause 2 is a pretty fun game to screw around in. Bulletstorm sucks rear end. I'm not 100% sure I can tell you why. LvK posted:I think your mileage just varied, since I can't stand Family Guy and Saints Row 2 got me by the balls. Course, it very rarely seemed monkey cheese random to me at all (probably the side missions where you get to spray poop on people are the only ones that gave me that impression). Admittedly, those were pretty silly just for sake of being silly. Then again, spraying poop on everything while Karma Chameleon or The Final Countdown plays in the background has a certain sort of dumb charm to it. 99% of SR2 is played dead straight, though and that's what I like about it. quote:Also instead of finally playing Alien Vendetta (with Brutal Doom on!), I think I'm going to reinstall Blood. That still has the finest architecture I think I've seen in a Build game. I'm currently playing through ZPack (with Brutal Doom!), but I may have to reinstall Blood as well. I can't even imagine how ridiculous a Brutal Blood mod would be, but it would be pretty cool.
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Aug 21, 2011 18:43
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I think "Brutal Blood" already exists. It's called "Blood". edit: In all seriousness, I think part of the reason Brutal Doom tickles my fancy so hard is that it reminds me of Blood, which is nothing but a good thing. LvK fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Aug 21, 2011 |
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Aug 21, 2011 18:45
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Platypus Farm posted:I've been thinking about this for awhile because I will nearly always prefer something from the 90s to something from this century. I'm sure there's some nostalgia in there, but that isn't all of it. According to wired, everything you said was a large part of the demise of DNF. Broussard wanted to have his cake and eat it too, so the game straddles old school and new, but had to keep on updating engines.
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Aug 21, 2011 18:59
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I'm hoping that once the tools catch up and making games isn't as much of a ridiculous sisyphean task we can have fun games again.
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Aug 21, 2011 19:08
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This thread reminds me of the South Park season finale. Pretty depressing.
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Aug 21, 2011 19:22
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I have no idea what that means.
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Aug 21, 2011 19:26
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I don't think we're in a permanent downhill slope at all, we're just in an uncomfortable transition period between polygons and voxels. Voxels are ridiculously more intuitive and user-friendly on the content production side - Just look at Minecraft. The only problem is that we haven't figured out how to make them fast enough yet.
microwave casserole fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Aug 21, 2011 |
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Aug 21, 2011 19:32
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Talking of voxels did no one like Delta Force 1/2? I thought they were decent despite being obviously ugly, and both have co-op i believe. The endless environments with almost no system requirements made me wonder why it wasn't used more. Someone should make some kind of free team-play browser FPS in this vein, everyone would be able to run it and it'd be great.
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Aug 21, 2011 19:41
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microwave casserole posted:I don't think we're in a permanent downhill slope at all, we're just in an uncomfortable transition period between polygons and voxels. Voxels are ridiculously more intuitive and user-friendly on the content production side - Just look at Minecraft. The only problem is that we haven't figured out how to make them efficient enough yet. I'm know GPUs have become more like general purpose massively parallel processing units, which is getting us closer and closer to proper hardware accelerated voxel rendering, but we're still so far away. I'd love to see something like Delta Force or Outcast with huge voxel landscapes and polygon-based models, made today to take full advantage of modern multi-threaded hardware. I've been playing around a bit with http://voxelstein3d.sourceforge.net/ and while it's still pre-beta in quality (sucky animations, kinda buggy etc.), but it shows a glimpse of what a full-voxel engine could do. Everything can be destructible in a definable way. Find a way to properly hardware render voxels, how to make voxel-based animated models work and (most importantly) how to incorporate a good physics engine and you could have a winner on your hands. KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Aug 21, 2011 |
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Aug 21, 2011 19:41
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microwave casserole posted:I don't think we're in a permanent downhill slope at all, we're just in an uncomfortable transition period between polygons and voxels. Voxels are ridiculously more intuitive and user-friendly on the content production side - Just look at Minecraft. The only problem is that we haven't figured out how to make them fast enough yet. Minecraft isn't actually voxels at all, is it?
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Aug 21, 2011 19:45
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Fergus Mac Roich posted:Minecraft isn't actually voxels at all, is it?
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Aug 21, 2011 19:49
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Fergus Mac Roich posted:Minecraft isn't actually voxels at all, is it? Close enough. It gets the point across.
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Aug 21, 2011 19:51
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Yeah I thought we'd be hearing a lot more about its tech if that were true. I'm not sure if that's what microwave casserole actually meant but maybe he or someone else can clarify what minecraft's cube-based lego block building means for 3D content production in a voxel engine.
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Aug 21, 2011 19:51
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microwave casserole posted:I'm hoping that once the tools catch up and making games isn't as much of a ridiculous sisyphean task we can have fun games again. I assume the games you find fun are the old FPS games which this thread is ostensibly about? Aren't those games all about jumping around really fast and killing things that die easily on reaction with a large variety of weapons? Isn't that pretty much what Call of Duty is? I only played the free weekend of black ops but that's pretty much how it seemed to be to me. Which is why I hated it, but that's another point entirely. Moreover FPSes have moved on from what you consider fun. Forward, upward, horizontally, however you wanna qualify the change, they're different and they ain't going back. Ever.
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Aug 21, 2011 19:54
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Fergus Mac Roich posted:Yeah I thought we'd be hearing a lot more about its tech if that were true. I'm not sure if that's what microwave casserole actually meant but maybe he or someone else can clarify what minecraft's cube-based lego block building means for 3D content production in a voxel engine. Making things out of polygons is unnecessarily difficult. You have to make sure they don't bunch up weird, you have to painstakingly stretch textures across them, and God help you if you want to make certain changes later. We've developed all sorts of tools to make this less painful over time, but the base dumbness is still there. With high-enough resolution voxels you just mold and paint stuff like you would in reality. You could even scan real things and use them with little tweaking after the fact.
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Aug 21, 2011 20:01
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YOURFRIEND posted:Moreover FPSes have moved on from what you consider fun. Forward, upward, horizontally, however you wanna qualify the change, they're different and they ain't going back. Ever. Half-Life pretty much ruined it for everybody because after that a developer could no longer just throw together a random monkey cheese collection of levels starring a winking protagonist like Duke Nukem anymore. This is why modern game no longer have fun theme levels like supermarkets and amusement parks or nonsensical weapons like the shrink ray--it wouldn't make sense in the story. Half-Life is the worst thing to happen to video games in other words. microwave casserole posted:Making things out of polygons is unnecessarily difficult. You have to make sure they don't bunch up weird, you have to painstakingly stretch textures across them, and God help you if you want to make certain changes later. We've developed all sorts of tools to make this less painful over time, but the base dumbness is still there. With high-enough resolution voxels you just mold and paint stuff like you would in reality. You could even scan real things and use them with little tweaking after the fact. ZBrush already lets you do that.
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Aug 21, 2011 20:02
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emoticon posted:Half-Life pretty much ruined it for everybody because after that a developer could no longer just throw together a random monkey cheese collection of levels starring a winking protagonist like Duke Nukem anymore. This is why modern game no longer have fun theme levels like supermarkets and amusement parks or nonsensical weapons like the shrink ray--it wouldn't make sense in the story. Kinda funny that by your description of goofyness in games I immediately thought of Fallout 3 and New Vegas.  And it's important to point out that while there are lots of great things about the old games there are an equal number of really lovely gameplay tropes that are better left gone and some really bad overall games on top of that. My recent foray into Quake and Quake 2 has kinda opened my eyes a bit as to how stagnant those games can get.
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Aug 21, 2011 20:08
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It's more challenging to work pure fun into coherent worlds, but that's a good kind of challenge. Like Yodzilla said, the new Fallout games manage this pretty well.
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Aug 21, 2011 20:15
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Fergus Mac Roich posted:Minecraft isn't actually voxels at all, is it? No, but Ace of Spades is, and it's sort of a multiplayer CTF voxel-based Minecraft clone with rudimentary physics (ie. blocks don't float without support): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hxuT-LSOl8 And then there's this, not an FPS but a pretty cool little game made with voxels: http://lexaloffle.com/bbs/?tid=201 I've had a love affair with voxels ever since I played Delta Force and Outcast. In theory, it's the perfect way to make a game engine, you get per-pixel effects pretty much automatically, since by definition every pixel is an object the engine can interact with and you can do some pretty hard core culling of things the camera can't see since you only really need to show the visible voxels, no matter how complex the scene is. KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Aug 21, 2011 |
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Aug 21, 2011 20:17
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emoticon posted:Half-Life is the worst thing to happen to video games in other words. I wouldn't go this far but Valve certainly ruined the FPS genre at any rate.
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Aug 21, 2011 20:44
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Pretty harsh. Do you blame them for making a game where the levels make narrative sense?
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Aug 21, 2011 20:45
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Yodzilla posted:Kinda funny that by your description of goofyness in games I immediately thought of Fallout 3 and New Vegas. Yeah, no doubt about the horrible tropes. I'm not going to harp on Shadow Warrior anymore because, frankly, I'm tired of myself on that topic. But all you have to do to see proof of this is play some of the four billion wolf-alikes that are universally awful (blake stone, e.g.) to see what happens when these gameplay elements are too wrung out. To respond to the CoD comment about bunny hopping and killing poo poo, you are right on the most base level, but I don't think it goes further than that. You cite the example that all we want are fun weapons and stuff, but then use the one game which has absolutely zero fun weapons. CoD has [machine gun] [pistol] [hand grenade] [melee weapon] and [rocket launcher]. While some of these are fun variants on a theme, none of them are particularly imaginative or whatever. Compare this to (look, I'm sorry but I really love Blood) Blood's voodoo doll, or spray can and lighter, also while it is functionally the same, chucking a dynamite bundle is better than a potato masher in my mind. Also the enemies. For me, this is the biggest thing and the first thing I notice in a game. In CoD you shoot one thing. You kill "the bad guys" whoever they may be in the scenario you're playing. It could be Russians, Saudis, the Japanese or Brits. Ultimately though it is all guys in uniforms doing guy-in-uniform things. This is just taking a real-life scenario and turning it into a game scenario. I'm not of the opinion that this is morally bankrupt and horrible for our collective psyches (yet... I have to admit that I'm getting there with the CoD series, but that's a digression) but just that it isn't very imaginative. War games are a lot of fun, especially, for me, strategy games set in real-life periods. Ones where you just shoot other dudes in the crotch and watch them writhe on the ground are too much realism, not enough escapism for me. Maybe I just like blasting the poo poo out of unearthly horrors from beyond the grave. Again, I'm becoming Oscar the Grouch, so I might just not have the proper mindset anymore. For me though, fun in an FPS is based on enemy variety, enemy weirdness, weapon creativity, level architecture and level flow. If I just follow a straight path through setpieces, I'm not entertained. To put it into simple terms, Doom is fun for me because of the whacky enemies, sensible maze levels and cool weapons. CoD is not fun for me because it is a straight line between set-pieces, the enemies are just people, and I could rent the weapons at the local firing range (mostly).
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Aug 21, 2011 20:48
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Space human being posted:I wouldn't go this far but Valve certainly ruined the FPS genre at any rate. I liked Half-Life a lot. I see them as ideologically separate entities. Doom is a game about fast action, cool enemies and blasting poo poo. HL is a game about exploration, some weird minimalist storyline and immersion. I see it as the difference between an arcade game (galaga) and something like Deus Ex. I guess you can differentiate them based on whether or not you get a screen at the end of each level that tells you how fast you finished. Actually, you can differentiate them based on whether or not you hit an exit button and get a report of how much poo poo you killed. I prefer games with exit buttons. I prefer games, rather than attempts at giving the player an "experience".
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Aug 21, 2011 20:52
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I have nothing against Half-Life. HL was a fun game but since then (mostly since HL2) games have focused more on the presentation/story and the gameplay has suffered as a result. Too many developers feel they have to emulate the Valve Cinematic Experience™ and the gameplay becomes more sluggish and boring to fit that narrative. Levels become linear with prescripted events because it's more cinematic that way, and movement speed is more realistic so you can't dodge and maneuver anymore, and they usually want to shoehorn in other random elements that are just a lot less fun than firing guns at things. Valve just popularized the stuff I hate about FPSs nowadays. I miss dodging projectiles, exploring non-linear levels, and shooting things. I hate having control taken away from me so I can listen to dialog that has no effect on the game. HL2 was so bad and pretty much everything I've seen since seems just as boring.
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Aug 21, 2011 21:09
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I'm pretty much completely bored by setpieces now. You can only see a giant monster bust through a wall, or a helicopter crash, so many times before it loses its wow factor.
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Aug 21, 2011 21:15
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Yep, that's probably why I'm so bored of Call of Duty. The gunplay is just fine, I just don't care about how Michael Bay everything can be. Besides, I'd rather play Battlefield where retarded, epic poo poo like that just kinda happens as a result of the gameplay.
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Aug 21, 2011 21:21
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Also I'm not necessarily opposed to fighting humans and humanoids (my favorite levels in Doom give me a lot of "popcorn" enemies with tougher guys popped in there) and I really love playing an action movie sometimes. I do miss monsters a lot, though. I've noticed that most FPS games I've seen these days that have monsters and crazy creatures use them for a horror/suspense gimmick or something. I'm a gun nut and I love games with lots of real-life guns, but I completely agree with the lack of fun weapons. Sometimes I want to mark out for having a badass handgun and a sweet shotgun or even just the option to fight entirely with hitscan if I want, but older games are nice for just knowing the OPTION is there if I want to have a crazy gimmicky rocket launcher that catches things on fire.
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Aug 21, 2011 21:44
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emoticon posted:Half-Life pretty much ruined it for everybody because after that a developer could no longer just throw together a random monkey cheese collection of levels starring a winking protagonist like Duke Nukem anymore. This is why modern game no longer have fun theme levels like supermarkets and amusement parks or nonsensical weapons like the shrink ray--it wouldn't make sense in the story. You're blaming that on Half-Life 1? Seriously? A game where you move around at Quake speed, laying tripmines for soldiers, shooting down floating psychic aliens with a Ghostbusters proton pack, and dueling acrobatic assassins using a severed alien arm that shoots angry bees? Yeah, it has some degree of continuity and narrative to the levels - which I happen to like - but it also had the high-speed gameplay and array of crazy, interesting weapons, a trend that Op4 continued. gently caress, HL deathmatch is distinguishable from Quake deathmatch only by the weapon selection. Half-Life 2, on the other hand...it was ok, but I really dislike how they removed all of the weapons from HL1 that were remotely interesting and replaced them with the Gravity Gun and nothing else. YOURFRIEND posted:I assume the games you find fun are the old FPS games which this thread is ostensibly about? Aren't those games all about jumping around really fast and killing things that die easily on reaction with a large variety of weapons? That really isn't what Call of Duty is. There's no variation in weapons: you have your grenade, your knife, and everything else is a generic bulletary damage hose. There are variations in damage per shot, damage per second, accuracy, and the like, but fundamentally they are all "you point it at the enemy, it makes a noise and damage comes out", without even superficial differences in projectile type or the like. Contrast this with earlier FPSes - Half-Life, Quake 2, and Descent come to mind, as they were among the first I played, but Blood and Duke3d would also be good to look at. In addition to the generic grenades and bullet hose weapons, HL1 has the aforementioned alien arm and proton pack, an energy beam that ignores walls and can be used to recoil-jump, exploding alien weasels, laser tripmines, detpacks, remote-guided missiles, and if you're playing with Op4, a lightning bug, an acid-spitting alien fish, and a gun that shoots teleporters. The weapon lists for other FPSes of the era are less extensive but no less varied. Similarly, there's no variation among enemies in CoD and similar games - they're all faceless adult humans carrying one of the aforementioned generic bullet hoses. Odds are the final boss, if there is one, is the same except with more hitpoints. If you're lucky, there might be attack dogs or automatic turrets every few missions. Meanwhile, HL1 has headcrabs, houndeyes, alien slaves, alien soldiers, alien controllers, human soldiers, ceiling barnacles, human assassins, the occasional snark nest, the Icthy, the Garg, a bunch of Op4-specific enemies and probably a few more that I'm forgetting. Each one is drastically different in appearance, behaviour, and attacks. Reading this over again, goddamn, HL2 really was a step back. I'm all bummed out now. Thinking on it some more, I think what happened is this. HL1 popularized continuous environments with a strong sense of versimilitude; even the alien levels feel like something that could exist somewhere, and there's a sensible transition from one level to the next. At the same time, it kept the weapons you used and enemies you fought nicely varied, and the levels, while continuous, still have a decent amount of variety in them. Other developers (including, later, Valve themselves) then ran with this idea, but decided that reduced variation in environments should be matched by reduced variation in weapons and enemies - often to a much greater degree than the levels themselves.
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Aug 21, 2011 22:17
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Space human being posted:I have nothing against Half-Life. HL was a fun game but since then (mostly since HL2) games have focused more on the presentation/story and the gameplay has suffered as a result. Too many developers feel they have to emulate the Valve Cinematic Experience™ and the gameplay becomes more sluggish and boring to fit that narrative. Levels become linear with prescripted events because it's more cinematic that way, and movement speed is more realistic so you can't dodge and maneuver anymore, and they usually want to shoehorn in other random elements that are just a lot less fun than firing guns at things. The problem is that nobody else is as good as Valve at the epic cinematic poo poo. Valve's are the only shooters in which the between-action cinematic scenes actually interest me rather than make me tap my foot impatiently and wait until I can start shooting stuff again.
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Aug 21, 2011 22:40
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Developers want to make games to much like movies nowadays. I think HL2 is a great game, but I really miss shooters where I just play through a level, press a switch or button and then hear a metal riff while I see how many enemies I killed and how many secrets I missed. I guess Serious Sam and Painkiller kind of tried to do this, but they just seem to lack the level design of a game like Doom or Blood. They just dump you into an arena with a lot of enemies and when you've killed them all you move on to the next arena (Painkiller does this more so than Serious Sam). Basically what I'm saying is: bring back keycards and walls that move when I 'press' them. And all the above remarks about weapon and enemy design are very true.
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Aug 21, 2011 22:54
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ToxicFrog posted:You're blaming that on Half-Life 1? Seriously? A game where you move around at Quake speed, laying tripmines for soldiers, shooting down floating psychic aliens with a Ghostbusters proton pack, and dueling acrobatic assassins using a severed alien arm that shoots angry bees? The second that game opened with a several minute long unskippable cutscene, it killed old school shooters forever. The high speed gameplay consisted of crawling through vents and whacking headcrabs and crates with a crowbar. There were crazy weapons but for a majority of the game your staples were more "realistic" military hardware like SMGs and handguns. HL also introduced the trend of having smart tactical AI enemies modeled after marines. So yes, I blame (or credit depending on your point of view) HL for a majority of modern gaming trends. Cinematic FPSes would not exist if it wasn't for Half-Life.
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Aug 21, 2011 23:20
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What sort of hoops would I have to jump through to play Redneck Rampage on a modern machine? Also, let's talk about Redneck Rampage. Those games ruled.
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Aug 21, 2011 23:37
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Funkmaster General posted:What sort of hoops would I have to jump through to play Redneck Rampage on a modern machine? Well, you can use EDuke (I think). If you don't already have the games, you can get the whole shebang on gog.com for 5.99 which will come preconfigured with a DOSBOX set up to run them on pretty much any system. actually, here you go: https://code.google.com/p/erampage/wiki/DownloadPage This seems to be the agreed upon "best source port" for the Redneck games. here is another one, made by ProASM (the guy that made the Shadow Warrior port): http://www.proasm.com/redneck/rrsetup.html Platypus Farm fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Aug 21, 2011 |
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Aug 21, 2011 23:45
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emoticon posted:The second that game opened with a several minute long unskippable cutscene, it killed old school shooters forever. The high speed gameplay consisted of crawling through vents and whacking headcrabs and crates with a crowbar. There were crazy weapons but for a majority of the game your staples were more "realistic" military hardware like SMGs and handguns. HL also introduced the trend of having smart tactical AI enemies modeled after marines. So yes, I blame (or credit depending on your point of view) HL for a majority of modern gaming trends. Cinematic FPSes would not exist if it wasn't for Half-Life. Cinematic FPSes would still exist without Half-Life, they would just give credit to whatever came up instead of Half-Life. The transition from Quake-style shooters to "story" driven FPS games was inevitable. At least Half-Life had the decency to give you aliens and some interesting weapons. Medal of Honor and Call of Duty are the games you should be shaking your fist at, though. They've paved the way for years of boilerplate shooters with the creativity of a dimestore romance novel. If you've played one, you've played all of them.
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Aug 22, 2011 00:02
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