ASoIaF: A Song of Ice and Fire: George Rail Road Martin

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flowinprose: Sep 11, 2001; Where were you? .... when they built that ladder to heaven...

shen posted:

- Ned writes a letter to Stannis telling him to come take the throne, which is how Stannis discovers the incest

Nobody "told" Stannis about the incest... remember the whole part about Stannis and Jon Arryn nosing around about Robert's bastards? Stannis was a part of the investigation, he knew about it at the same time as Jon Arryn.

# ? Aug 23, 2011 01:00

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# ? May 22, 2024 14:16

Putin It In Mah ASS: Nov 12, 2003; Omni-gel superlube is great stuff!

shen posted:

I haven't re-read books 1-3 in a couple years, could you explain more about this? My understanding was:

- Jon Arryn discovers the incest
- Littlefinger gets Lysa to poison Jon Arryn so no one finds out about the incest
- Because Jon Arryn died, Robert decides to make Ned the Hand
- Ned discovers the incest
- Ned writes a letter to Stannis telling him to come take the throne, which is how Stannis discovers the incest

This is like that video where the guy has his girlfriend explain what she knows of the original Star Wars trilogy.

# ? Aug 23, 2011 01:44

Proposition Joe: Oct 8, 2010; He was a good man

Well no one in this thread can pick up on simple poo poo like 'Dolorous Edd is gay' so what are you going to do.

# ? Aug 23, 2011 01:50

Ross: May 25, 2001; German Moses

Mayhaps I also suck at reading but I honestly haven't picked up on any of these characters being gay. Connington maybe if you really want to perceive him as a gay character, but I can't remember reading a single passage that made me think Renly/Loras/Blackfish/D.Edd are gay.

# ? Aug 23, 2011 02:08

bigmcgaffney: Apr 19, 2009

Ross posted:

Mayhaps I also suck at reading but I honestly haven't picked up on any of these characters being gay. Connington maybe if you really want to perceive him as a gay character, but I can't remember reading a single passage that made me think Renly/Loras/Blackfish/D.Edd are gay.

Blackfish - confirmed bachelor, refuses to marry
Renly and Loras - many other characters reference their gay love, especially Jaime and Littlefinger
D. Edd - Brother of the nights watch, has that vibe

I missed Renly being gay the first time I read it too, but I was as aforementioned, a bad reader, and young.

# ? Aug 23, 2011 02:14

Eggnogium: Jun 1, 2010; Never give an inch! Hnnnghhhhhh!

Ross posted:

Mayhaps I also suck at reading but I honestly haven't picked up on any of these characters being gay. Connington maybe if you really want to perceive him as a gay character, but I can't remember reading a single passage that made me think Renly/Loras/Blackfish/D.Edd are gay.

Blackfish and Edd are barely more than trolls. But Renly & Loras is clear as day if you go back and read it knowing about that possibility.

# ? Aug 23, 2011 02:15

Caufman: May 7, 2007

The biggest thing I missed was that Lysa killed Jon Arryn. She loving says it outright, but at that point I was just skimming through her madness.

# ? Aug 23, 2011 02:16

Ross: May 25, 2001; German Moses

Caufman posted:

The biggest thing I missed was that Lysa killed Jon Arryn. She loving says it outright, but at that point I was just skimming through her madness.

Yes, Littlefinger convinced her to do it, right?

I got lost in the whole explanation behind who sent the assassin to kill Bran. Can anyone sum that up?

# ? Aug 23, 2011 02:21

Sally: Jan 9, 2007; Don't post Small Dash!

Unzip and Attack posted:

That's an interesting theory. I've always thought the Stranger was the least thought-out of the religious ideas presented in Martin's writing, but maybe I was wrong. Then again, if all that's required is a bunch of prayers, why did the Night's Watch build the Wall and safeguard it all these years? When the Children and First Men defeated the Others last go-round, there wasn't even a Faith of the Seven around if memory serves.

Since gods are immortal, they don't perceive time the same way mortals do. The Children of the Forest and the First Men lucked the gently caress out when they used their combined forces/magic/giant-gently caress-off-walls to beat the Others. Enraged by their affront to him, the Stranger would marshal his forces for a second wave - thousands of years later. Only for the Stranger, it felt like the blink of an eye. The cycle will continue until people join hands and pray for forgiveness from the Other; their armies will never be able to ultimately triumph over the Stranger and her/her/its Others.

(Or it's just a silly joke theory. I never thought the Stranger was the least thought out, just the most ignored. The Stranger is a Charon-like figure who is meant to take people to whatever heaven the Seven have when they die. I figure that because the Stranger has so little to with actually LIVING, people only pray to it when they are near death. I always thought it strange that there were never more candles devoted to the Stranger during the war. I mean, I get that most warriors don't expect to die, and so they pray to the Warrior or Smith for bravery and good steel, but why not pray to the Stranger as well asking for it to leave them alone for a few more years, or let them see the morning after the battle, etc.)

# ? Aug 23, 2011 02:24

hailthefish: Oct 24, 2010

Ross posted:

Yes, Littlefinger convinced her to do it, right?

I got lost in the whole explanation behind who sent the assassin to kill Bran. Can anyone sum that up?

Joffery did because he wanted to make.. somebody.. Robert, maybe, proud because that person said it would be better if Bran had died. And because Joff's a little poo poo and they were making fun of him and whatever. The knife was one of Robert's, Joff stole it from the baggage cart and gave it to the assassin.

# ? Aug 23, 2011 02:33

hellbastard: Apr 4, 2006

Putin It In Mah rear end posted:

This thread is gay. Allusions to it hit you over the head every three posts, and if you didn't pick up on them you are a terrible poster.

I'm starting to think you all have gayscale.

# ? Aug 23, 2011 02:40

shen: Jan 22, 2006

Quantify! posted:

Jon Arryn told Stannis before he died. When Jon Arryn died Stannis fled to Dragonstone.

In any case they were planning to gather evidence (in the form of Robert's dozen bastards that had black hair and his royal children with yellow hair) and confront Robert. This would've led to Robert declaring war against the Lannisters.

War... war is inevitable.

Well I feel like an idiot. One other thing, the part where you said Robert "was going to make Ned the Hand regardless of any of that", do you mean he was planning on this before Jon Arryn died?

# ? Aug 23, 2011 02:50

Hedrigall: Mar 27, 2008; by vyelkin

Ross posted:

Mayhaps I also suck at reading but I honestly haven't picked up on any of these characters being gay. Connington maybe if you really want to perceive him as a gay character, but I can't remember reading a single passage that made me think Renly/Loras/Blackfish/D.Edd are gay.

a nerd posted:

Are Loras and Renly Gay?

Throughout the series, the reader is given an outside look at the relationship between Renly Baratheon and Loras Tyrell. While, at first glance, it seems that it is nothing but innocuous friendship, there are some clues to suggest that their love for each other goes beyond mere companionship. In fact, it seems likely that the two men may be gay lovers. The evidence comes only in small bits and pieces, but, when pieced together, paints an interesting picture.

I. THOUGHTS ON RENLY

Lots of rumors seems to circulate around Westeros concerning Renly. Let�s take a look at a few.

1) Margaery�s Maidenhood

Renly�s own brother seems to doubt his sexuality. From CoK, pg. 478, a conversation between Renly and Stannis:

�...I got Margaery. You�ll be pleased to know she came to me a maid.�
�In your bed she�s like to die that way.�

This could be mindless sibling banter, but Stannis seems like an honest man, and his words imply that Renly is less than infatuated with women. Mace Tyrell swears the Margaery is still a virigin when she marries Joffrey, so it appears that Stannis was correct in this.

2) Renly�s Servants

Tyrion hires some of Renly�s old servants, in SoS, pg. 655

Varys had suggested the woman to him; in former days, she had run Lord Renly�s household in the city, which had given her a great deal of practice at being blind, deaf and mute.

What secret could Renly have that his servants must keep quiet about? There could be plenty of options, but homosexuality seems the most likely.

3) The Rainbow Guard

Instead of a standard Kingsguard, Renly decides to call his group the �Rainbow Guard.� Since in our world, rainbows are often a sign of homosexuality, this could be GRRM adding a little joke to imply that Renly is gay. Of course, it could just be coincidental.

4) Fashion Sense

Renly also has a reputation for being well into fashion and the best dressed man at court. (GoT, pg. 191) Since such fashion sense in a male is another sign of being gay in our world, this could be another clue put in to help point out Renly�s doubtful heterosexuality.

II. THOUGHTS ABOUT LORAS

If anything, Loras just as many rumors floating around about him as Renly, all of them pointing toward the fact that he might just be gay.

1) The Knight O�Pansies

On CoK, pg. 466, Chiswyck tells his friends a story of what Gregor did after he was defeated by Loras in the Hand�s Tourney. He mentions that Gregor was �brooding on the Knight o� Pansies and that bugger�s trick he played.� On one hand, this seems to imply that there are well-known rumors that Loras is gay. On the other hand, of course Gregor would be upset that he was defeated, and want to believe such rumors.

2) Garlan�s Remarks

Like Renly, Loras also has his brother seemingly believing that he is gay. Garlan makes a strange remark to Sansa during her wedding:

�Loras is valiant and handsome and we all love him dearly...but your Imp will make a better husband.�
--SoS, pg. 322

Now Garlan is known to be chivalrous, and he could be simply trying to soothe Sansa over her forced marriage. But again, he seems to be implying that Loras would not make a good husband. Why?

3) The Kingsguard and Littlefinger�s Remarks

While on route to the Vale, Littlefinger explains some political things to Sansa. Among them, he mentions why Loras joined the Kingsguard:

�And it relieved him {Mace} of the difficult task of trying to find lands and a bride for a third son, never easy, and doubly difficult in Ser Loras�s case.�
--SoS, pg. 769

Of course, it does make sense to have a third son join the Kingsguard, saving the trouble of finding marriage arrangements for him. But Littlefinger�s line �doubly difficult in Ser Loras�s case� implies that there were more reasons. Why would finding marriage for Loras be more difficult? If he is gay, the problem is solved when he joins the Kingsguard, as the White Swords are sworn to chastity.

4) Loras and Sansa

When Loras speaks with Sansa on SoS, pg. 64, the conversation eventually comes around to Renly. Loras grows angry and sullen at Renly�s mention, and quickly changes the subject. Why? Perhaps Loras is just feeling the loss of a close friend...or perhaps it is the loss of a lover.

5) Robar Royce and Emmon Cuy

After Loras discovers that Renly is dead, he himself kills Ser Robar Royce and Ser Emmon Cuy, the two Rainbow Guard knights that swore to protect him. His wrath seems a bit much for the loss of a friend, implying that Renly meant something more to Loras.

III. RUMORS OF THE COUPLE

Just as rumours circulate around about each man individually, just as many get out about the pair, most of them implying a gay relationship.

1) The Feast at Bitterbridge

On CoK, pg. 348, Renly is feasting with his host at Bitterbridge. There, Catelyn notes that he pays little attention to his new bride Margaery, but instead spends his time laughing and joking with Loras. By all accounts, Margaery is very attractive, so why would Renly ignore her for Loras? It could be close friendship, or perhaps something more...

2) �Renly�s Little Rose�

Oberyn Martell has some choice words about Renly and Loras in his conversation with Tyrion on SoS, pg. 437

�There are those who say that Ser Loras is better than Leo Longthorn ever was,� said Tyrion.

�Renly�s little rose? I doubt that.�

Oberyn�s remark clearly shows that he, at least, believed there to be a gay relationship between the couple. Of course, he could only be going off false rumors, but combined with the other evidence, it seems unlikely.

3) Jaime�s Remarks

Jaime becomes angry at Loras when returning to King�s Landing, and adds to the rumors we know about Loras and Renly.

�Now sheathe your bloody sword, or I�ll take it from you and shove it up some place even Renly never found.�
--SoS, pg. 698

Another definite implication of a homosexual relationship between Loras and Renly. But again, perhaps Jaime is only referring to false rumors.

4) Loras�s Old Flame

On SoS, pg. 137, Tyrion has a conversation with Loras. The talking eventually comes around to why Loras would join the Kingsguard instead of getting married. Loras remarks that he once loved somebody but

�When the sun has set, no candle can replace it.�

Now who is Loras�s old love and what happened to them? Certainly, there could be lovers in Loras�s past that we know nothing about, but Renly fits the description to a tee.

5) Loras�s Remarks on Renly

Loras has some choice words to say about Renly on SoS, pg. 759. After expressing extreme anger over Renly�s death, he goes on to say:

�I buried him with mine own hands, at a place he showed me once when I was a squire at Storm�s End. No one shall ever find him there to disturb his rest.� He looked at Jaime definatly. �I will defend King Tommen with all my strength, I swear it. I will give my life for his if need be. But I will never betray Renly, by word or deed. He was the king that should have been. He was the best of them.�

These emotional words imply that there was a romantic bond between Loras and Renly. The fact that Renly showed Loras secret places in Storm�s End suggests that they had a particularity close relationship.

6) �Praying�

It seems quite possible that Loras and Renly could have had a sexual encounter while praying the night before Renly�s death. As the night falls, Renly asks to see Loras alone.

�Loras, stay and help me pray. It�s been so long I�ve quite forgotten how.�
--CoK, pg. 483

By all accounts, they were alone all night, and Loras later refers to that night.

�We had...we had prayed together that night.�
--SoS, pg. 760

Notice that Loras hesitates before saying what he and Renly did together. Why the hesitation? Perhaps Loras was just flustered while thinking about his dead friend...or perhaps something else occurred that night besides praying.

Conclusion

In conclusion, it seems quite likely that there was a gay relationship between Loras and Renly. Numerous characters such as Chiswyck, Oberyn, Jaime, Tyrion and Littlefinger all seem to have heard rumors of the couple�s homosexuality. Even there own kin, Stannis and Garlan, seem to think that their brother might be gay. Coupled with Loras�s emotional feelings and words whenever he refers to Renly, it certainly seems extremely likely that he was gay lovers with Renly.

# ? Aug 23, 2011 03:11

Putin It In Mah ASS: Nov 12, 2003; Omni-gel superlube is great stuff!

If there's one thing that really pisses me off about the TV show it's that we won't get to see any of that awesome hinting in the same light because they went ahead and made it explicit.

# ? Aug 23, 2011 03:23

Ross: May 25, 2001; German Moses

Have they said much about what season 2 of the show will cover? ACoK is a fine book but I have a hard time seeing it being an interesting/exciting television series. I also have a hard time seeing ACoK and ASoS merged into one season without leaving a ton of stuff out.

# ? Aug 23, 2011 03:26

Mr.Brinks: Apr 24, 2005; Welly, well. To what do I owe the extreme pleasure of this surprising?

Putin It In Mah rear end posted:

If there's one thing that really pisses me off about the TV show it's that we won't get to see any of that awesome hinting in the same light because they went ahead and made it explicit.

TV viewers aren't that smart and the subtly would have been too hard to pull off.

# ? Aug 23, 2011 03:31

Mahlertov Cocktail: Mar 1, 2010; I ate your Mahler avatar! Hahahaha!

I think season two is supposed to pretty much just cover Clash of Kings. They're talking about splitting Storm of Swords if they get a third season because that book's so loving big.

# ? Aug 23, 2011 03:39

Azure_Horizon: Mar 27, 2010; by Reene

I can understand missing Blackfish/Connington/... Dolorous Edd's homosexuality, but if you missed Renly/Loras as a couple then you must have been reading every third word. Especially since GRRM himself outright stated it.

# ? Aug 23, 2011 03:40

Mr.Brinks: Apr 24, 2005; Welly, well. To what do I owe the extreme pleasure of this surprising?

Azure_Horizon posted:

I can understand missing Blackfish/Connington/... Dolorous Edd's homosexuality, but if you missed Renly/Loras as a couple then you must have been reading every third word. Especially since GRRM himself outright stated it.

You forgot Selmy, who is definitely Bi.

I have no idea how HBO is going to split up the next books without either having lots of seasons, or simply just brushing over a lot of material.

# ? Aug 23, 2011 03:44

Azure_Horizon: Mar 27, 2010; by Reene

Mr.Brinks posted:

You forgot Selmy, who is definitely Bi.

I have no idea how HBO is going to split up the next books without either having lots of seasons, or simply just brushing over a lot of material.

Someone's gonna have to point out where Selmy's bi, because he spends most of the latter half of ADWD fantasizing about women.

# ? Aug 23, 2011 03:45

Mahlertov Cocktail: Mar 1, 2010; I ate your Mahler avatar! Hahahaha!

Mr.Brinks posted:

I have no idea how HBO is going to split up the next books without either having lots of seasons, or simply just brushing over a lot of material.

Well, as long as the ratings stay as good as they were for first season, I don't think they'll mind having a lot of seasons.

# ? Aug 23, 2011 03:48

Hedrigall: Mar 27, 2008; by vyelkin

Azure_Horizon posted:

Someone's gonna have to point out where Selmy's bi, because he spends most of the latter half of ADWD fantasizing about women.

Exactly, so he can't be 100% gay! Therefore, bi.

# ? Aug 23, 2011 03:58

Azure_Horizon: Mar 27, 2010; by Reene

Hedrigall posted:

Exactly, so he can't be 100% gay! Therefore, bi.

Him and ~Daario~ can go have gaybabies.

# ? Aug 23, 2011 04:03

Thoguh: Nov 8, 2002; College Slice

At thus point I can't tell if people are joking or if they really think Dolorious Edd and Selmy are gay. Selmy spent chapters morning over an female crush and Delorious Edd has never had anything sexual come up at all.

# ? Aug 23, 2011 04:10

Mr.Brinks: Apr 24, 2005; Welly, well. To what do I owe the extreme pleasure of this surprising?

Thoguh posted:

At thus point I can't tell if people are joking or if they really think Dolorious Edd and Selmy are gay. Selmy spent chapters morning over an female crush and Delorious Edd has never had anything sexual come up at all.

Uhh don't you think if Edd liked women he would have said so?

# ? Aug 23, 2011 04:12

bigmcgaffney: Apr 19, 2009

Mr.Brinks posted:

Uhh don't you think if Edd liked women he would have said so?

He's never been mentioned to go to Moles Town either. And Selmy pining over Ashara Dayne means little or less, Ashara is almost irresistible to every character that has interacted with her.

# ? Aug 23, 2011 04:21

Ross: May 25, 2001; German Moses

Ned Stark never said he liked women ergo I surmize he is bi if not outright 100% a gay.

vv Unzip I think you quoted the wrong post there

Ross fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Aug 23, 2011

# ? Aug 23, 2011 04:23

Unzip and Attack: Mar 3, 2008; USPOL May

Ross posted:

Have they said much about what season 2 of the show will cover? ACoK is a fine book but I have a hard time seeing it being an interesting/exciting television series. I also have a hard time seeing ACoK and ASoS merged into one season without leaving a ton of stuff out.

In the original TV show thread, I made this exact point and was shouted down by people who called me a bigot. Nevermind that I insisted their relationship was actually really well written in my opinion - the fact that I wanted it to be more subtle and a gradual reveal rather than BJs and slurp sounds meant that I hate gay people and want them all to stay in the closet.

As I stated earlier, this subject always comes up in GRRM threads because the new goonsay is to see discrimination everywhere, all the time.

# ? Aug 23, 2011 04:25

Arrrthritis: May 31, 2007; I don't care if you're a star, the moon, or the whole damn sky, you need to come back down to earth and remember where you came from

Ross posted:

Ned Stark never said he liked women ergo I surmize he is bi if not outright 100% a gay.

No wonder Catelyn is so sour. Nobody likes being a beard.

# ? Aug 23, 2011 04:29

YES bread: Jun 16, 2006

bigmcgaffney posted:

And Selmy pining over Ashara Dayne means little or less, Ashara is almost irresistible to every character that has interacted with her.

Yeah, even Tyrion who digs mostly waify underfed hookers and 12-year-olds was enchanted by her saggy boobs and stretch marks which was pretty :wtc:

. Weird as heck, and definitely out of place if it's not some kind of hint.

# ? Aug 23, 2011 04:53

JerkyBunion: Jun 22, 2002

YES bread posted:

Yeah, even Tyrion who digs mostly waify underfed hookers and 12-year-olds was enchanted by her saggy boobs and stretch marks which was pretty . Weird as heck, and definitely out of place if it's not some kind of hint.

Wait, that was Ashara Dayne?

:psyboom:

# ? Aug 23, 2011 04:55

Maytag: Nov 4, 2006; it's enough that it all be filled with that majestic sadness that is the pleasure of tragedy.

Unzip and Attack posted:

the fact that I wanted it to be more subtle and a gradual reveal rather than BJs and slurp sounds meant that I hate gay people and want them all to stay in the closet.

Why should it be a gradual reveal? Like it's some titillating secret. Wait for it...wait for it...GAY! If you actually accept that being gay is a natural thing, it should be a throw-away fact for the audience- unless it's important to their relationship with other characters. It's like when people tell stories and say "So this black guy came up to me..."

# ? Aug 23, 2011 04:56

Thoguh: Nov 8, 2002; College Slice

bigmcgaffney posted:

He's never been mentioned to go to Moles Town either.

Counterpoint: 100% of the whores from mole town we have met are gay. Edd is the only one who didn't visit mole town whores. Therefore Edd and Jon are the only straight guys in the watch.

The only characters I've actually picked up on as being gay are Renly, Loras, Cottington, and [i]maybe[/] the Blackfish. Not sure where people are pulling out the rest from. Though I have only done one whole readthrough, so I might have missed some hints.

# ? Aug 23, 2011 04:58

YES bread: Jun 16, 2006

JerkyBunion posted:

Wait, that was Ashara Dayne?

It's a popular theory that doesn't have much if any concrete evidence, but it does fit into the narrative pretty neatly.

# ? Aug 23, 2011 04:59

Exploding Computer: Oct 6, 2006; Fun Shoe

Thoguh posted:

Counterpoint: 100% of the whores from mole town we have met are gay. Edd is the only one who didn't visit mole town whores. Therefore Edd and Jon are the only straight guys in the watch.

The only characters I've actually picked up on as being gay are Renly, Loras, Cottington, and [i]maybe[/] the Blackfish. Not sure where people are pulling out the rest from. Though I have only done one whole readthrough, so I might have missed some hints.

I thought Satin was a whore from Oldtown, not Mole Town. The whores in Mole Town are girls. A couple shoot crossbows and poo poo at the wildlings.

# ? Aug 23, 2011 05:23

Mad Hamish: Jun 15, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

Hedrigall posted:

Stuff about Loras and Renly

I am pretty sure that Renly's Rainbow Guard had something more to do with the fact that the rainbow is an important religious / cultural symbol in Westeros than our modern use of it for the GLBT movement. Just sayin'.

The rest of it is spot-on, though.

# ? Aug 23, 2011 05:54

Unzip and Attack: Mar 3, 2008; USPOL May

Maytag posted:

Like it's some titillating secret.

In Westeros, it certainly is. I for one enjoyed figuring it out somewhere near the end of the first book and facepalming at the myriad of small hints that GRRM left for the reader along the way. Being hoodwinked by a good writer is fun - I don't know why it always has to be about homophobia.

As for the Ashara = Lemore theory, I just don't buy it. She was supposed to be one of the most beautiful women in the realm, with "haunting" violet eyes. Tyrion isn't some dunce - he is a shrewd, extremely observant dude who would have noticed her having violet eyes. I mean, it's a fun theory but I really hope everyone in the series doesn't turn out to be someone we thought previously dead.

# ? Aug 23, 2011 06:01

Putin It In Mah ASS: Nov 12, 2003; Omni-gel superlube is great stuff!

Mad Hamish posted:

I am pretty sure that Renly's Rainbow Guard had something more to do with the fact that the rainbow is an important religious / cultural symbol in Westeros than our modern use of it for the GLBT movement. Just sayin'.

The rest of it is spot-on, though.

It can be both

# ? Aug 23, 2011 06:05

YES bread: Jun 16, 2006

Maytag posted:

Why should it be a gradual reveal? Like it's some titillating secret. Wait for it...wait for it...GAY! If you actually accept that being gay is a natural thing, it should be a throw-away fact for the audience- unless it's important to their relationship with other characters. It's like when people tell stories and say "So this black guy came up to me..."

Pretty decent arguments have been made that the wink wink nudge nudge Renly/Loras relationship has as much to do with the nature of fantasy fans than as the limitations of his POV layout.

GURM himself is pretty cagey about that kind of stuff, like he insists that the Rainbow Guard/LGBT thing was a complete coincidence that he didn't even consider (like how do you in no way even consider the connotation unless you've been under a rock for 70 years). He's also said that Renly/Loras relationship was "clear" even though tons of readers disagree. Then again he does love to tease and troll his fans so I guess that kind of meta thing isn't beyond him.

# ? Aug 23, 2011 06:38

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# ? May 22, 2024 14:16

Azure_Horizon: Mar 27, 2010; by Reene

YES bread posted:

Pretty decent arguments have been made that the wink wink nudge nudge Renly/Loras relationship has as much to do with the nature of fantasy fans than as the limitations of his POV layout.

GURM himself is pretty cagey about that kind of stuff, like he insists that the Rainbow Guard/LGBT thing was a complete coincidence that he didn't even consider (like how do you in no way even consider the connotation unless you've been under a rock for 70 years). He's also said that Renly/Loras relationship was "clear" even though tons of readers disagree. Then again he does love to tease and troll his fans so I guess that kind of meta thing isn't beyond him.

The best part about it is that GRRM is right. I knew it right when both of them constantly prayed with one another. And the whole Margaery thing. So awkward.

# ? Aug 23, 2011 06:41

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > ASoIaF: A Song of Ice and Fire: George Rail Road Martin

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