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Azure_Horizon posted:The best part about it is that GRRM is right. I knew it right when both of them constantly prayed with one another. And the whole Margaery thing. So awkward. Yeah it's just that the way he talks about it doesn't really jive with the idea that it's a little side-mystery to reward astute readers. I honestly think it does a lot for Margaery's character if you understand their relationship right away, she comes across as much more of an intense schemer-type. Contrasted with Sansa, who was obsessed with romance and making royal babies, Margaery is totally content to play beard to her brother's man in exchange for station and power.
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Aug 23, 2011 06:47
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Pretty early on I was wondering if Renly was gay, or can he just not get it up, or what, and then the more stuff unfolds with Renly and Loras the more it pointed toward the gay thing. And I think it was "someplace Renly never found" combined with "prayed with him all night/it's been so long" that made me go "Huh, yeah, they must be gay lovers. Nice to finally see a fantasy author who doesn't make a huge deal out of it." A fantasy story with no male homosexuals (or no homosexuality at all), is generally not that distracting to me, but the author making a big deal of having a homosexual (particularly male) character tends to be really off-putting and destructive to immersion. "THIS CHARACTER IS A GAY MAN, HE LOVES PENISES, SOMETIMES EVEN IN HIS BUTT. HE DOES NOT LIKE WOMEN, HE LIKES MEN, BECAUSE HE IS GAY, AND THAT'S OKAY, YES, THIS IS THE ~EDGY~ SETTING I AM WRITING IN! LOOK AT ME! MY BOOK HAS A MAN WHO LIKES DICKS!"
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Aug 23, 2011 06:50
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hailthefish posted:Pretty early on I was wondering if Renly was gay, or can he just not get it up, or what, and then the more stuff unfolds with Renly and Loras the more it pointed toward the gay thing. And I think it was "someplace Renly never found" combined with "prayed with him all night/it's been so long" that made me go "Huh, yeah, they must be gay lovers. Nice to finally see a fantasy author who doesn't make a huge deal out of it." This is exactly why I enjoyed the Renly/Loras relationship. It's never outright stated, but the subtle implications make it very clear, and apart from derision from the series' other dickhole characters, it's not a ~oh hey there's some homos here do you see them hint hint whisper whisper SCREAM IN YOUR FACE GAY WE ARE FLAMERS~ thing at least, god, at least not even close to the amount of obvious, in-your-face lesbianism. And that would be fine if it never involved Myrish swamps... except it does. Ugh.
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Aug 23, 2011 06:53
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I thought the Loras/Renly romance was about as explicit it could get considering the PoV structure and Westeros's culture.
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Aug 23, 2011 06:54
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Unzip and Attack posted:In Westeros, it certainly is. I for one enjoyed figuring it out somewhere near the end of the first book and facepalming at the myriad of small hints that GRRM left for the reader along the way. Being hoodwinked by a good writer is fun - I don't know why it always has to be about homophobia. Yeah as the last couple posters said hes not trying to hoodwink you and keep it a secret so much as none of the POVs are in a situation to check out Renly/Loras firsthand, and the comments are pretty blatant by book 2. Its cool you like discovering deeper meanings and I don't think you're homophobic but GRRM doesnt mean it to be a puzzle.
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Aug 23, 2011 06:55
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hailthefish posted:A fantasy story with no male homosexuals (or no homosexuality at all), is generally not that distracting to me, but the author making a big deal of having a homosexual (particularly male) character tends to be really off-putting and destructive to immersion. "THIS CHARACTER IS A GAY MAN, HE LOVES PENISES, SOMETIMES EVEN IN HIS BUTT. HE DOES NOT LIKE WOMEN, HE LIKES MEN, BECAUSE HE IS GAY, AND THAT'S OKAY, YES, THIS IS THE ~EDGY~ SETTING I AM WRITING IN! LOOK AT ME! MY BOOK HAS A MAN WHO LIKES DICKS!" I feel the same way but about pretty much all sex-obsessed type characters of any preference. It might be because I'm chemically castrated due to medical issues myself, but I much prefer it when that kind of stuff is background motivation rather than in the forefront of the story, and probably why Tyrion as a character irritates the poo poo out of me even though he seems to be a fan favorite. I guess it also explains why I like ADWD Theon more too. 
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Aug 23, 2011 06:58
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Unzip and Attack posted:In the original TV show thread, I made this exact point and was shouted down by people who called me a bigot. Nevermind that I insisted their relationship was actually really well written in my opinion - the fact that I wanted it to be more subtle and a gradual reveal rather than BJs and slurp sounds meant that I hate gay people and want them all to stay in the closet. My favourite example of GoT-related goon witch hunting was when, around episode 5 or so, some guy said that people who don't like Arya are obviously misogynists who feel threatened by strong female characters, and a few pages later a different self-appointed defensor oppressorum popped up to claim that Arya-fans are obviously misogynists because "[they] only like female characters when they exhibit masculine traits"  (both statements were debated in earnest by the thread).It bears repeating, if it wasn't sufficiently obvious already: engaging in Internet discussion, even in a heavily moderated environment like SA, absolutely demands a thick skin. Someone, somewhere, is almost guaranteed to take offence at your opinion, and being unable to ignore a baseless insinuation is a good recipe for wasting your day, or even ruining your mood.
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Aug 23, 2011 07:23
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YES bread posted:I feel the same way but about pretty much all sex-obsessed type characters of any preference. It might be because I'm chemically castrated due to medical issues myself, but I much prefer it when that kind of stuff is background motivation rather than in the forefront of the story, and probably why Tyrion as a character irritates the poo poo out of me even though he seems to be a fan favorite. I guess it also explains why I like ADWD Theon more too. I don't know if this appropriate, but a Ask Me About Being Chemically Castrated thread would be very interesting. Dunno if your comfortable with that, but I would be interested in the why/how and what effects etc aspect of that.
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Aug 23, 2011 08:17
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NihilCredo posted:My favourite example of GoT-related goon witch hunting was when, around episode 5 or so, some guy said that people who don't like Arya are obviously misogynists who feel threatened by strong female characters, and a few pages later a different self-appointed defensor oppressorum popped up to claim that Arya-fans are obviously misogynists because "[they] only like female characters when they exhibit masculine traits" I think the conclusion here is that all goons who enjoy fantasy are misogynistic simply by definition
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Aug 23, 2011 08:38
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Apologies if this has been covered already, only managed to read the book many weeks after release and searched the thread though didn't see anything, but while there are many people putting forward the Lady Lemore = Ashara Dayne theory I came away from the book with another reading. Considering the Dayne's are said to be very Targaryen, Edric Dayne specifically is noted for purple eyes, and the use of the title "mummer's dragon" to describe Aegon in Dany's vision made me think that Aegon Targaryen is instead the bastard son of a Stark (either Eddard or Brandon) and Ashara Dayne while Lemore is the mysterious Wylla the wetnurse. It's always been assumed that Ned fathered a bastard by the people in Westeros, though we don't accept Jon is actually his and he's covering for Lyanna and Rhaegar, but what if Ned did in fact have a bastard just not the bastard he brought home? Aegon would be of an age with the Ned/Ashara bastard and fit the chronology. While we know nothing of Wylla physically, other than Edric Dayne referring to her as his wetnurse in Starfall, we can be fairly sure Lemure does not have the purple eyes of the Dayne's as Tyrion would have noticed but Wylla being the wetnurse of the Stark/Dayne bastard and then his "septa" may fit. Also don't believe Ramsay's letter at all, or that he even sent it - the letter constantly refers to Jon as "bastard" but from Theon's chapters it is apparent Ramsay, being a psychopath, hates references to Snow or bastards as it reminds him of his own low-born status. Even referring to Jon as a bastard would send him nuts.
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Aug 23, 2011 10:08
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Lid posted:Apologies if this has been covered already, only managed to read the book many weeks after release and searched the thread though didn't see anything, but while there are many people putting forward the Lady Lemore = Ashara Dayne theory I came away from the book with another reading. Considering the Dayne's are said to be very Targaryen, Edric Dayne specifically is noted for purple eyes, and the use of the title "mummer's dragon" to describe Aegon in Dany's vision made me think that Aegon Targaryen is instead the bastard son of a Stark (either Eddard or Brandon) and Ashara Dayne while Lemore is the mysterious Wylla the wetnurse. That would be inconsistent with his personality though. Catelyn often reflects in her inner monologues that it was strange that of all people Eddard would father a bastard, it is one of the main reasons people believe in the L+R=J theory. On the other hand Robb is described as Eddard, part 2, so who knows. Personally I think septa Lemore is the mother of one of the sand snakes (one of their mothers was said to be a septa), it might make sense to bring her along to get make some people in Dorne happy.
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Aug 23, 2011 10:23
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kanonvandekempen posted:That would be inconsistent with his personality though. Catelyn often reflects in her inner monologues that it was strange that of all people Eddard would father a bastard, it is one of the main reasons people believe in the L+R=J theory. On the other hand Robb is described as Eddard, part 2, so who knows. True but it is why I included the possibility of it being Brandon Stark's bastard - it was pointed out somewhere else that in Barristan's POV talking about his unrequited love for Ashara that she was defiled by "Stark" but it doesn't specify which Stark. Given Barristan's advice to Dany in which he talked up Eddard as an honourable man on the wrong side of the war it seems unlikely that Barristan would internally resent Eddard and hate him and say the opposite. GRRM loves this literary tricking where he gives you just enough information to make an assumption but on a second reading it's a bit more vague (the other major one in this book being Jon Snow being Azor Ahai). Edit: It's doubtful it's Tyene Sand's mother as Tyene is blonde with blue eyes while Lemore is brown haired (eyes unknown) and Oberyn was black haired. Lid fucked around with this message at 10:52 on Aug 23, 2011 |
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Aug 23, 2011 10:43
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I'm pretty sure the Targaryens trained their dragons to become gay. Yes, they were trained. You can train dragons to be gay, if you have the right blood.
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Aug 23, 2011 13:22
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I must say that the treatment of Loras' homosexuality in the book is pretty progressive. He's the greatest knight in the kingdom, kicks all kinds of rear end on the field,is one of the bodyguard of the King, and doesn't really mince around. He's a strong knight who happens to love Renly's lance. That whole Knight of Flowers thing even makes sense, as he's from Highgarden.Lid posted:Also don't believe Ramsay's letter at all, or that he even sent it - the letter constantly refers to Jon as "bastard" but from Theon's chapters it is apparent Ramsay, being a psychopath, hates references to Snow or bastards as it reminds him of his own low-born status. Even referring to Jon as a bastard would send him nuts. I was wondering about this myself. Reminding someone of one's bastard status does not seem Ramsay's style and I'm thinking someone else wrote it. Not Roose. Roose is far too chill for something like that.
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Aug 23, 2011 13:40
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Unzip and Attack posted:In the original TV show thread, I made this exact point and was shouted down by people who called me a bigot. Nevermind that I insisted their relationship was actually really well written in my opinion - the fact that I wanted it to be more subtle and a gradual reveal rather than BJs and slurp sounds meant that I hate gay people and want them all to stay in the closet. Every character exposition that was provided via POV thoughts in the book is given with a stand in whore or sitting in bed in the show. Since Renly is gay, he had to give his thoughts with his boyfriend instead.
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Aug 23, 2011 15:24
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hailthefish posted:Pretty early on I was wondering if Renly was gay, or can he just not get it up, or what, and then the more stuff unfolds with Renly and Loras the more it pointed toward the gay thing. And I think it was "someplace Renly never found" combined with "prayed with him all night/it's been so long" that made me go "Huh, yeah, they must be gay lovers. Nice to finally see a fantasy author who doesn't make a huge deal out of it." Mad Hamish posted:
I had a different take: Ramsay Snow hates when anyone else calls him a bastard and not a Bolton. He goes ballistic because he doesn't consider himself a bastard, especially if you kneel to King Tommen who legitimized him. He's also crazy and petty. I read it as: "I'm legitimate and the prince of Winterfell. You, idiot, are just a bastard. Neener neener neener." It takes me back to the difference between Jon and Ramsay, and Jon's conversation with Tyrion in GOT. Ramsay's whole chip on his shoulder has always been his bastard birth. He's incredibly sensitive about it. Jon was sensitive about it at first (at Winterfell and then at Castle Black and getting mad about being called Lord Snow), but Tyrion tells him that if he takes on the name Snow and the title bastard as his own then it can't be used to hurt him. Problem solved. Poor Ramsay just never had a clever half-man running around.
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Aug 23, 2011 16:46
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menino posted:I'm pretty sure the Targaryens trained their dragons to become gay. Yes, they were trained. You can train dragons to be gay, if you have the right
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Aug 23, 2011 17:01
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Illinois Smith posted:Gay dragons love the horn.
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Aug 23, 2011 17:52
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Azure_Horizon posted:This is exactly why I enjoyed the Renly/Loras relationship. It's never outright stated, but the subtle implications make it very clear, and apart from derision from the series' other dickhole characters, it's not a ~oh hey there's some homos here do you see them hint hint whisper whisper SCREAM IN YOUR FACE GAY WE ARE FLAMERS~ thing And yet there are no purely lesbian characters so far in the series. We have Renly and Loras, most likely Jon Connington, and theres a few others who are open to speculation, but they're all men. We've only seen Dany and cersei batting for the same team, and then only out of curiosity or because they just wanted some action and daario wasn't around
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Aug 23, 2011 18:42
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Just poking my head in to state that I don't think I am going to complete the book. Even the Tyron chapters are becoming suck. The point has been reached where the bad thread is more enjoyable a read than the actual book. Is it a spoiler if the person being spoiled doesn't really care? Really, can someone just make a short list of what happens in the book (I stopped at the end of the chapter where Asha is battling against the northmen wearing tree branches) so I don't have to actually read the rest? Fog Tripper fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Aug 23, 2011 |
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Aug 23, 2011 20:44
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Wow, some fans DO just want bullet points.
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Aug 23, 2011 21:03
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Fog Tripper posted:Really, can someone just make a short list of what happens in the book (I stopped at the end of the chapter where Asha is battling against the northmen wearing tree branches) so I don't have to actually read the rest?
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Aug 23, 2011 21:03
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Vary's kills Kevan and Pycelle
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Aug 23, 2011 21:12
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Some banker walks around, and a gay guy comes home to Westeros. Also Weyman Manderly made some pies for Ramsay Bolton's wedding and then later Theon left with his bride. Mance Ragnier watched the whole thing.
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Aug 23, 2011 21:17
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Putin It In Mah rear end posted:Some banker walks around, and a gay guy comes home to Westeros. Also Weyman Manderly made some pies for Ramsay Bolton's wedding and then later Theon left with his bride. Mance Ragnier watched the whole thing. Ze pies vere made out of peeeeople...ha-ha just keeding. No really, they vere.
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Aug 23, 2011 21:20
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Oh and fake Arya Stark fucks a dog, don't know if you got that far but it's a pretty significant plot point.
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Aug 23, 2011 21:20
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Fog Tripper posted:
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Aug 23, 2011 22:17
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NihilCredo posted:I suppose bitching about the books without reading them is the next logical step after bitching about the show without watching it. Dear TVIV parachute account, I watched the series. It sucked. I've read about 1/3 of ADwD and have all but given up on it. It is nice to have you as a follower. At least I have that.
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Aug 23, 2011 23:20
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Suck it up and finish the book so you can properly call it lovely along with us.
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Aug 23, 2011 23:24
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Quantify! posted:Suck it up and finish the book so you can properly call it lovely along with us. I will. It is sitting next to the commode, and I suppose I have to read SOMETHING in there.
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Aug 23, 2011 23:25
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Fog Tripper posted:I will. It is sitting next to the commode, and I suppose I have to read SOMETHING in there. Out of curiosity, what are some fantasy series' that you do enjoy?
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Aug 24, 2011 00:05
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regulargonzalez posted:Out of curiosity, what are some fantasy series' that you do enjoy? I enjoyed ASoIaF up till these last 2 "half-books".  Was really looking forward to ADwD because of the time it's been since the last Tyrion and Jon content. You really cannot compare this series to other "fantasy" series. In a nostalgic way I enjoy Tolkien, Brooks, Pratchet, and Piers Anthony. But I've grown more selective as I've aged. Really, the first 3 books were written such that I didn't want to put them down. It wained in AFFC and now it feels like a struggle with ADwD. Edit: I even re-re-re-read the series leading up to the ADWD release, and the pacing is like night and day.
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Aug 24, 2011 00:13
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Fog Tripper posted:Really, can someone just make a short list of what happens in the book (I stopped at the end of the chapter where Asha is battling against the northmen wearing tree branches) so I don't have to actually read the rest? Theon: jumps onto some snow Asha: sits in a cage, gets called a oval office Jon Snow: copies Jeor, and get stabbed to death by the nights watch Danny: gets the squirts Bran: becomes a temporal botanist Tyrion: finnally after all this wait, finally after two books, finnally... gets on that pig like Joffrey wanted. Arya: poisons a coin Breinne: is alive, for no adequatley explored reason. Jammie: is mentioned. Cersi: streaks the sept of baelor Quentin Martell: goes to a Dornish BBQ Baby Aegon: rides a boat John Connington: gets Gayscale Ramsay Bolton: writes a letter Roose Bolton: doesn't
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Aug 24, 2011 00:26
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hellbastard posted:Roose Bolton: doesn't
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Aug 24, 2011 00:33
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Hemp Knight posted:And yet there are no purely lesbian characters so far in the series. We have Renly and Loras, most likely Jon Connington, and theres a few others who are open to speculation, but they're all men. We've only seen Dany and cersei batting for the same team, and then only out of curiosity or because they just wanted some action and daario wasn't around Pure lesbianism doen't really affect the power structure of the world. it can be safely assumed that a large number of the women in this world don't want to sleep with the men they are married to, yet the norms dictate that they do. given the disparity in power and usually age, a woman who doesn't want to couple with a man usually doesnt' have much of a choice, especially if she is married to that man but especially if she doesn't have a bunch of sworn swords around her, no matter who she is married to. "Boys will be boys" leads to a lot of awful male rapine. an uninterested man is not quite the same.
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Aug 24, 2011 01:15
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Daario moves into a tie with Darkstar as greatest character; Barristan reminisces and does a thing; Victarion tosses some gays overboard, burns women alive, bros out with a red priest and gets a zombie arm
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Aug 24, 2011 01:22
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menino posted:oh thanks for clearing that up. I'm so glad that someone else calls him J-Con. Toplowtech posted:Some guy asked GRRM if "a certain POV character" (probably Connington) was gay at a Q&A after the Union Square's signing. I"m pretty sure that Victarion is the gay POV, he does hang out with Moqorro a lot. Then again, Jon Snow does have a male prostitute as his personal assistant...
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Aug 24, 2011 02:08
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Fog Tripper posted:I enjoyed ASoIaF up till these last 2 "half-books". I disagree. I find Martin's prose way, way more intriguing than any of those authors you listed. Tolkien, for example, just straight up puts me to sleep. AFFC and ADWD were fantastic books. And honestly, you asking for bullet points about ADWD's plot is just lame. Straight up. No question. Azure_Horizon fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Aug 24, 2011 |
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Aug 24, 2011 02:19
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Azure_Horizon posted:I disagree. I find Martin's prose way, way more intriguing than any of those authors you listed. Tolkien, for example, just straight up puts me to sleep. AFFC and ADWD were fantastic books. I think he meant strictly the pacing of first three books vs. last two books. Also, why does Xaro get no love in this gay character-outing fest we boys are having?
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Aug 24, 2011 02:38
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Woah like, don't jump down his throat. He didn't like the book. That's just like, his opinion, man. Seriously a lot of people didn't like / were disappointed with it. Nothing wrong with just getting sick of it and stopping. It's not exactly a brisk read at...however many pages is it anyway? Kindle sizes the text to your screen size.
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Aug 24, 2011 02:44
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