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The Merry Marauder posted:True enough, but sometimes you have to take what you can get, and I didn't want any newbies to misapprehend their safety, especially on such a wooded map. What is so wrong with Endo-Steel and Streak LRMs?
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Aug 26, 2011 15:38
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landcollector posted:What is so wrong with Endo-Steel and Streak LRMs? Endo-Steel is not something you can just stick on an omnimech, since it is the skeleton of the mech. This would require dismantling the entire mech in a dedicated Warhawk factory. If it could happen easily I would be using an ES/FF Nova all the time.  Streak LRMs are experimental tech, thus making them illegal in real play. Most experimental tech is unbalanced in some form and gets nerfed before it is allowed in standard play. KnoxZone fucked around with this message at 15:48 on Aug 26, 2011 |
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Aug 26, 2011 15:45
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landcollector posted:What is so wrong with Endo-Steel and Streak LRMs? Endo? I don't, as a rule, approve of adding Endo Steel to existing designs in customization, especially in Omnis, as, if you think about it, would require tearing the whole thing apart and putting it back together. I freely admit that this is a personal idiosyncrasy and you may well feel differently. Streak LRMs? Level 3 tech just annoys me, as I am old and crotchety in my BattleTeching and remember the good old days when I had everything's stats memorized. YMMV.
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Aug 26, 2011 15:46
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What they said.
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Aug 26, 2011 15:49
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Well, I suppose it is what I deserve for even attempting to do custom designs. Standard structure seems like such a waste compared to Endo-Steel though. Whatever.
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Aug 26, 2011 15:55
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landcollector posted:Well, I suppose it is what I deserve for even attempting to do custom designs. Standard structure seems like such a waste compared to Endo-Steel though. Whatever. Endo-Steel is far superior to standard, but it is a lot more expensive and difficult to repair. It is also sorta bulky, which is why you will not see many assault class mechs using it, as space is generally at a premium for them.
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Aug 26, 2011 16:00
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KnoxZone posted:Endo-Steel is far superior to standard, but it is a lot more expensive and difficult to repair. It is also sorta bulky, which is why you will not see many assault class mechs using it, as space is generally at a premium for them. Wasn't there some type of experimental inner structure that was either lighter or less bulky than endo steel but really really brittle and easy to damage? Rorac fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Aug 26, 2011 |
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Aug 26, 2011 16:14
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When you've got 14 move while running, things like 'facing' and 'in range' are mere quibbles! Anyway, still too many woods between us and the targets. Should we still be hanging back or trying to close as much as possible with the nearest enemy?
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Aug 26, 2011 16:45
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landcollector posted:Well, I suppose it is what I deserve for even attempting to do custom designs. Standard structure seems like such a waste compared to Endo-Steel though. Whatever. For example, a friend of mine has worked out a set of FWLM mech customs which massively improve upon Level 1/3025 designs that can be performed in a standard Dropship gantry and using only mechs found on the FWLM low-end RATs.....
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Aug 26, 2011 16:47
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Rorac posted:Wasn't there some type of experimental inner structure that was either lighter or less bulky than endo steel but really really brittle and easy to damage? same weight none of the bulk is Composite. which takes double damage on any internal structure hits. Crunchy There is also reinforced structure which is doubled weight from standard, no more bulk (Endo steel is bulky because its basically a hollow tube which needs to be wide to provide the same abilities as a standard. Reinforced being basically even stronger metal is just a lot heavier) double structure points and -1 to crit table rolls (impossible to blow the limb off a mech with a reinforced structure on a crit the material is just too strong for it to happen. There also exists hardened armor in the same vein as the reinforced structure. Half the protection per ton (8 vs 16) but since mech armor is based off points rather than weight effectively its double weight for the same amount of points, but on hardened each point counts as 2, and there is a -2 on any TACs to hardened armor, the downside other than weight is -1 to running movement speed and -1 on piloting checks. (also some other rules like immunity to mech tasers and the like, and hardened armor and armor piercing autocannon rounds cancelling each other out so it works out as standard.) 
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Aug 26, 2011 16:58
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Dolash posted:When you've got 14 move while running, things like 'facing' and 'in range' are mere quibbles! I'd say stay in your little quadrant fighting for at least two more turns. Depending on if the DEST teams stop moving we should keep the fight there, if they keep moving we should switch sides. Make the infantry irrelevant by keeping well away from any spot they can reasonably be in. There are only three of them.
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Aug 26, 2011 17:16
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Okay, now again, still pretty new at this, but let's see... Say my Piranha in 1513 turns from SE to SW (2 move), then moves forward 1 hex into 1413 (1 move), then turns to NW (1 move) then moves forward and up one hex to 1313 (2 move) then turns SW (1 move) and moves forward and down into 1313 (2 move) and as a last move torso-turns to face NW. That'd be 9 movement, so I'd be walking, and I'd cross 3 hexes, so I'd be at +1 to being hit, and my torso would be facing in the direction of F5, who can see me. I don't think I'd need to take any piloting tests. We're six hexes away from each other so that's medium range on her two medium lasers and my two ER medium lasers. There's one heavy wood and one light wood in the way, so we could see each other, although I imagine the heavy wood, light wood, and two pieces of height-1 hill between us will affect the shot. Otherwise I'm at +3 to hit from walking while she ran 5 hexes and she's at +3 to hit for running while I walked 3 hexes. Sound like a good idea/did I get all that right? I had a different to just book it around in circles in the corner some more and shoot some trees with my lasers, but I dunno.
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Aug 26, 2011 17:39
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A good poster posted:My (F2 Jenner) initial plan is to jump 7 hexes to 0812 and unload all my SRM launchers into the V5 Locust. If I read the tables right, I'll have 8 to-hit, and his lasers will have 7. Are there any special rules for jumping into a forest hex, like needing an extra MP or taking a piloting skill roll? Looks like a good move. That should leave the Phoenix Hawk with no LOS to you, and the Panther with a near-impossible shot. Dolash posted:Anyway, still too many woods between us and the targets. Should we still be hanging back or trying to close as much as possible with the nearest enemy? I would hang back while keeping an eye on the central clearing. 1609 or 1211 maybe? North of the clearing, assume that ninjas and/or bears are firmly in control. 
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Aug 26, 2011 17:42
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Mary Annette posted:Looks like a good move. That should leave the Phoenix Hawk with no LOS to you, and the Panther with a near-impossible shot. Best CO.
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Aug 26, 2011 17:49
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landcollector posted:Standard structure seems like such a waste compared to Endo-Steel though. We're not trying to deter you from making customs--it's fun, but you should always remember: weight savings isn't always worth the hidden costs; and a lot of these 'Mechs are flawed for a reason. Unstoppable juggernaut simply aren't fun to play or fight against. Hell, I personally don't even like to field assault-weight designs. Watching two 'Mechs slug it out for 15+ turns is boring. Watching two extremely flawed light 'Mechs duel where one lucky hit will spell the end of either? That's exciting. Anyway, as far as design philosophies go... None of the Clan assaults have both Ferro Fiberous and Endo Steel, and with good reason. Heck, some of them don't run either! Once you hit that 80 ton range, the internal space is more important than the weight savings. For example: with the Dire Wolf, converting it to Endo Steel and Ferro Fiberous Armor frees up 13.5 usable tons. On the surface, that seems to be a huge advantage... but it's at the cost of 14 internal spots; and that ratio gets even worse with Inner Sphere 'Mechs. But, for the sake of argument, let's upgrade it anyway. With 63.5 tons of empty space, you're going to be hard pressed to actually fill the Dire Wolf with anything worthwhile; especially since the weight savings can't get you more armor, since it's already running with maximum protection. So, we'll slap the heaviest weapons in the game into this monster, and see what happens...  Yeah. Forget mounting energy weapons, they're too light; and I feel guilty about mounting two tons of ammo for each pair of weapons, since ammo is hugely inefficient at one ton per slot. Even replacing that ER Medium Laser (which it'll never fire due to heat it can't manage) with an ER Large Laser (which has the same problem, but worse) leaves us with 3.5 unused tons. Endo Steel and Ferro Fiberous become more efficient the lighter your 'Mech is; where the weight savings is actually beneficial. In the bigger assaults, space is the limiting factor, not weight.
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Aug 26, 2011 17:53
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Dolash posted:There's one heavy wood and one light wood in the way, so we could see each other One heavy plus one light always blocks line of sight. Fortunately, from 1313, line of sight is drawn between two LIGHT woods (to F5) VVVV You're talking about hex 1213. I was wondering why your suggested orders had you walking from 1313 to 1313. 1313 is at the top of the hill, and is the superior position. You can't shoot anything from 1213 this turn. PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Aug 26, 2011 |
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Aug 26, 2011 17:57
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My mistake! I thought 1012 was heavy woods. Edit: does that map have two 1313s on it? And is the whole second-last row --13 by mistake when it should be --12? Dolash fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Aug 26, 2011 |
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Aug 26, 2011 18:06
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PTN, wouldn't the Dire Wolf mounting just FF armor be worthwhile though? It does take up space, but the weight savings seem like they would be worth it it due to it having so much armor. I personally was under the impression that as far as weight savings go, FF armor was better on heavies and up, and Endo Steel is better on lighter mechs. Although the Timberwolf did a drat fine job using both those and the XL engine.
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Aug 26, 2011 18:30
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Rorac posted:PTN, wouldn't the Dire Wolf mounting just FF armor be worthwhile though? It does take up space, but the weight savings seem like they would be worth it it due to it having so much armor. Seems like it would... but when you're already devoting over half your weight to weapons and equipment, an extra 6.5 tons is really meaningless. If you can't do it in 50.5 tons, you're not going to do it in 57 with less space.
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Aug 26, 2011 18:58
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PoptartsNinja posted:Seems like it would... but when you're already devoting over half your weight to weapons and equipment, an extra 6.5 tons is really meaningless. If you can't do it in 50.5 tons, you're not going to do it in 57 with less space. Perhaps, perhaps not. Most of an assault mech's weapons loadout, in my experience, tends to be full of heavy weapons that punch large, gaping holes in armor. That extra 6.5 tons, space permitting, can either be used for 1 or 2 anti-infantry weapons (Flamers, AP Gauss Rifles, etc.) or light crit seekers like SRMs or SSRMs, plus a ton or two of ammo.
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Aug 26, 2011 19:30
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PoptartsNinja posted:None of the Clan assaults have both Ferro Fiberous and Endo Steel, and with good reason. Heck, some of them don't run either! Once you hit that 80 ton range, the internal space is more important than the weight savings. That's only half true; some Clan assaults have both ES internals and FF armor, but a Standard engine instead of an XL. It's mostly on second-liners like the Marauder IIC and Warhammer IIC, but the Kingfisher omni also has that layout. But all three? Nope, nowhere to be found.
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Aug 26, 2011 19:35
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an oddly awful oud posted:the Kingfisher We don't talk about the Kingfisher ... mostly because nobody notable has ever piloted one, and it's completely overshadowed by the Executioner and Warhawk. There actually was a Kingfisher in the mission with the Steel Vipers, but it never saw any action.  landcollector posted:Most of an assault mech's weapons loadout, in my experience, tends to be full of heavy weapons that punch large, gaping holes in armor. Taking the Dire Wolf's base Prime configuration and adding Ferro Fiberous armor alone leaves exactly two remaining internals and gives you three tons to play with. That's great in the day and age where the three-ton Plasma Rifle exists; but when the Dire Wolf was developed that toy wasn't even a gleam in the developers' eyes. I'm in no way saying that Endo Steel and Ferro Fiberous are bad, understand... but anyone can make an unstoppable flawless juggernaught. They're not fun to use, and they're not fun to fight against; and knowing that nearly every 'Mech has a flaw somewhere is the reason why we bring Clints and Blackjacks to fights instead of swarming the map with Lynxes. Winning is fun. Winning with a Clint is even moreso. PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Aug 26, 2011 |
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Aug 26, 2011 21:42
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PoptartsNinja posted:and it's completely overshadowed by the Executioner and Warhawk. V V V Oh, fair enough (Which is pretty odd considering how awesome it is). Usual Barb fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Aug 26, 2011 |
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Aug 26, 2011 21:57
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Xmas Future posted:Woah, what? You're really going to have to explain that one because I can't see any way that that's true. In popularity. Further explaination: the Executioner and Warhawk have extremely iconic looks. The Kingfisher looks like a slab with guns attached to it. I like the design, honestly--but it's not likely to be anyone's first pick for a Clan assault omni. Hell, the Kingfisher doesn't even have an Inner Sphere designation. That's how rare it is. PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Aug 26, 2011 |
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Aug 26, 2011 21:58
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quote:They're not fun to use, and they're not fun to fight against; and knowing that nearly every 'Mech has a flaw somewhere is the reason why we bring Clints and Blackjacks to fights instead of swarming the map with Lynxes. PTN, you and I have a similar design philosophy. I have a few mechs posted on Solaris7 and all of them have both a theme and a quirk or setup issue that makes them sub-optimal or otherwise weird(or luck based. 4 Rac/5s SOUND good until 3 jam in one turn). I think I might push them a bit further to optimal than you do but suffice it to say there's always something either wrong or non-ideal with all of them.
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Aug 26, 2011 22:31
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I must be weird. I always look at the "game" of BTech 'mech design as a way to maximize the firepower I can put downrange whilst minimizing the "D'oh what were they thinking!" flaws that cause a perfectly good 'mech to go boom for no easily-explicable reason. That said, when I'm trying to design a custom assault Omni and space becomes an issue, I look into useful ways to eat weight without taking up crits at all, or even freeing them. Switching to Hardened armor, for instance, if this 'mech's engagement profile does not call for it to be trying to keep up with Timber Wolves, or something else exotic in the armor department, like maybe Ferro-Lammelor. Maybe armor or make compact a few of the internals, like the gyro. Nothing says "gently caress you" to laughing off a CT TAC because you brought a hardened engine to the fight and it did precisely all of jack and poo poo. And of course, there's always adding more heat sinks. Remember, engines eat up heat sinks without taking space to a degree, and you can hide quite a few cDHS in that extra-dimensional bag of holding known as a Clan 400 XL.
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Aug 26, 2011 22:41
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ShadowDragon8685 posted:I must be weird. I always look at the "game" of BTech 'mech design as a way to maximize the firepower I can put downrange whilst minimizing the "D'oh what were they thinking!" flaws that cause a perfectly good 'mech to go boom for no easily-explicable reason. I'm similar to you in design methodology. A part of me heavily dislikes sub-optimal designs, unless the final result has an interesting gimmick (like the 4 RAC/5 concept Rorac posted).
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Aug 26, 2011 22:48
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I like both. I enjoy designing invinco-death machines, but I prefer to play with regular designs that have quirks I can use. For instance, in Level 1 play I enjoy using a Cataphract because everything worthwhile is on one side of the 'mech, which makes the other side totally disposable. I played an event in last year's GenCon where I let an enemy Warhammer blow the entire left side of my 'mech off because all it cost me as a single medium laser and it cost him his whole 'mech! In the kind of balanced kill-machines that I design, I'd never get away with that, not least because my usual XL engine would make losing a torso hazardous or fatal. Design for perfection but play with the imperfect, that is the way to true BattleTech Happiness. 
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Aug 26, 2011 22:56
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Actually, 4RAC5's is a pretty terrible design if you're not in near-melee range. Using them at anything but full burst is almost pointless for the weight required, and using them AT full burst has a good chance of jamming. And it goes through over 1 ton of ammo if you use all of them at once. And it has literally nothing else so once you run out you're down to punching and kicking. But the potential for 120 damage in one turn? It's hard to pass that up.
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Aug 26, 2011 22:58
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I've used a Quad RAC/5 deathmachine, actually. It was a heavily-customized Turkina. The beast was pretty boss, too, as long as you didn't get bullshit pilot KOs hitting you. Had full Hardened armor, so it wasn't likely to fall to a bullshit TAC, either.
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Aug 26, 2011 23:05
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Thinking about walking to 1211, facing 1210 or 1111. On the other hand, I could run towards V5 and either stay out of sight in the woods or open up this turn. Suggestions? I'm piranha 1/ F4 for reference.
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Aug 26, 2011 23:19
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PoptartsNinja posted:Taking the Dire Wolf's base Prime configuration and adding Ferro Fiberous armor alone leaves exactly two remaining internals and gives you three tons to play with. That's great in the day and age where the three-ton Plasma Rifle exists; but when the Dire Wolf was developed that toy wasn't even a gleam in the developers' eyes. Along these lines I did a thing many years ago on DropShipCommand where I would create a design requirement for a mech or vehicle, list restrictions on it (Nation X had no good access to certain modules, thus couldn't be used) and have people submit creations and descriptions for their designs. You get some really neat things when the goal isn't "KILL THE gently caress OUT OF EVERYTHING, drat THE PRICES!"
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Aug 26, 2011 23:39
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Hauki posted:Thinking about walking to 1211, facing 1210 or 1111. On the other hand, I could run towards V5 and either stay out of sight in the woods or open up this turn. Suggestions? I'm piranha 1/ F4 for reference. 1211 looks good to me, since you can't get to range 1 on anything just yet. Piranha wants range 1 more than anything.
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Aug 27, 2011 00:09
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Taerkar posted:Along these lines I did a thing many years ago on DropShipCommand where I would create a design requirement for a mech or vehicle, list restrictions on it (Nation X had no good access to certain modules, thus couldn't be used) and have people submit creations and descriptions for their designs. I had tried to approximate the RX-79(G) Gundam from 08th MS Team in SSW some time ago, and I think I did a fair job at it. If anyone is interested, I can post a brief readout. landcollector fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Aug 27, 2011 |
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Aug 27, 2011 00:42
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Rorac posted:Actually, 4RAC5's is a pretty terrible design if you're not in near-melee range. Using them at anything but full burst is almost pointless for the weight required, and using them AT full burst has a good chance of jamming. And it goes through over 1 ton of ammo if you use all of them at once. And it has literally nothing else so once you run out you're down to punching and kicking. Mount it on a tank. Pretend it's a meaner SRM Carrier. Problem solved!
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Aug 27, 2011 02:32
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an oddly awful oud posted:That's only half true; some Clan assaults have both ES internals and FF armor, but a Standard engine instead of an XL. It's mostly on second-liners like the Marauder IIC and Warhammer IIC, but the Kingfisher omni also has that layout. Unless Sarna is lying to me, all three can in fact be found on one mech: the Stormcrow.
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Aug 27, 2011 03:19
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Cythereal posted:Unless Sarna is lying to me, all three can in fact be found on one mech: the Stormcrow. "assaults"
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Aug 27, 2011 03:21
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The Merry Marauder posted:"assaults" Ah. Thought he was talking about Clan mechs in general at that point. My mistake.
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Aug 27, 2011 03:24
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AtomikKrab posted:
I just tried this stuff out on megamek against a friend and holy poo poo that fight was hilarious (and terribly frustrating for him, which was a bonus). Hardened armor on an assault is just unfair and it amused me to no end watching what he threw at me turn into 1 and 2 point damage strikes. It ended when he got into melee while I was one level higher. Rorac fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Aug 27, 2011 |
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Aug 27, 2011 04:06
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Rorac posted:I just tried this stuff out on megamek against a friend and holy poo poo that fight was hilarious (and terribly frustrating for him, which was a bonus). Hardened armor on an assault is just unfair and it amused me to no end watching what he threw at me turn into 1 and 2 point damage strikes. Justice Foot? Very nice!
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Aug 27, 2011 04:55
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