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PTN specifically stated that they don't have to acknowledge zell. And in the narrative, instead of it being described as focus fire, it was described as killstealing.
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Aug 28, 2011 01:44
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Gimmick Account posted:Nice turn, but what happened to zell? You focused fire on the very first combat turn and challenged no one. Did something special happen behind the scenes or are you just ignoring clan rules completely? Zell doesn't apply to bandits and other scum, as I recall. Like stupid space ninja-wannabes.
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Aug 28, 2011 01:45
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Crepuscule Adepte posted:PTN specifically stated that they don't have to acknowledge zell. And in the narrative, instead of it being described as focus fire, it was described as killstealing. I thought he said that the enemy would be ignoring zell, but of course the clan star had no way of knowing that. Didn't know that the mercenary force was already identified as 'bandits', I thought they were simply 'unknowns'. In that case it's fine, I guess.
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Aug 28, 2011 01:53
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As promised, here is my wordy post about the clans, some issues I have with them, and assorted thoughts about them and What Went Wrong (from an in-universe perspective; it makes for a good story out of universe!) Hopefully nobody's feathers are ruffled too badly by me going all  about the Clans again.What is Wrong with the Clans? Imagine that you are a warrior who every single day of his life since you were old enough to read, at least glanced past these words by someone you claim to revere as the 'Great Father' of your way of life. pre:We shall live apart, conserving all the good of the Star League and ridding ourselves of the bad, so that when we return, and return we shall, our shining moral character will be as much our shield as our BattleMechs and fighters. pre:"I salute those who remain behind, and I hope that they will make some difference in the dark times I see ahead." pre:And Nicholas stood with the first gathering of Khans to draw up the tenets of what made a warrior. ... Wars were for warriors to wage and that innocents not suffer at the hands of trueborns. Once you understand how you can do that, you understand the Clans as they are in Battletech, and why- both in and out of universe- they are so disappointing. Aleksandr Kerensky was a hero and a patriot- if a bit nuts.* He prosecuted the bloodiest war in human history that time in the name of 'right'. He threw an usurper off the throne he served, and then waited patiently for someone else to claim it. He could have taken it. His best friend, Gen. DeChavilier, offered to help him overthrow the squabbling First Lords to claim the throne for House Kerensky. But the General refused. He would kill a billion for a good cause, but he would not kill a single one for mere ambition or for no reason at all. Call him a fanatic, call him crazy, but at least give him the courtesy of acknowledging that unbending a moral center. So he took his army and simply... left, once it was clear that the First Lords no longer wanted him around save to wield a military machine to kill their enemies. Along the way, he sent this. pre:"To all citizens of the Inner Sphere do I, Aleksandr Kerensky, send greetings. Know that I have taken the remnant of the Star League Defense Force which has remained true to its purpose beyond the boundaries of the Inner Sphere, beyond the Periphery. I have done this, neither out of disappointment with those whom we leave behind, nor out of spite or disdain, as some will say. No, we have left the Inner Sphere because we love it too much to see it destroyed. In the wake of the Usurper's coup, and the long, bitter fighting that came with it, I fear that my forces would do incalculable, possibly irreparable, harm to our society. We are sworn to ward the Star League and its subjects, not destroy it. Thus, we have left the only homes we have ever known to place the destructive capability of this armada beyond the reach of those who would use it, not for defense, but for conquest. Perhaps, with the might of our 'Mechs and ships out of reach, the leaders who now grapple with one another will relinquish their dreams of subjugating their neighbors and learn to live in peace with them. Perhaps, one day, should mankind step back from the brink of the abyss, we, our children, or our children's children will return, to once more serve and protect and guide the Star League in mankind's quest for the stars. Farewell." Nicholas Kerensky Is A loving rear end in a top hat The Clans are Nicholas's idea, not Aleksandr's. Let us get that straight right now. Trueborns? Nicholas. Weird language? Mostly Nicholas. Hyperfetishization of warrior culture? Nicky. Strict caste system? Still Nicholas. Everything that went wrong you can trace directly and precisely to Nicholas Kerensky. Not that everything he did was awful; but that everything that was awful came from him. It gets worse. Nicholas had a younger brother, Andery. And Nicholas hated him. Manipulated him into expressing sentiments he twisted into support for mutineers, and then took those to Aleksandr to make himself seem the more loyal son; sent Andery onto a mutinous warship and demanded he personally help execute the mutineers; kept Andery out of being a warrior come the second exodus, only to grudgingly be forced to let him back in a Mech cockpit in Operation Klondike... and then possibly went so far as to arrange things so that Andery was all alone in enemy territory. "Tragically", he was ambushed and killed. What a pity. Andery came up with some things pivotal to the Clans- zellbrigen, the trial system, etc- which Nicholas promptly appropriated in his 'dear departed' brother's memory. Which, to my jaded eye, looks like a classic way for the son of a despot to consolidate absolute power in himself by eliminating his rival. And do not think there is not a giant heaping of irony in a man being the first leader of the self-professed ultimate in meritocratic systems being qualified for it by being the SON of a great man. And it is not as though this was not recognized at the time. pre:Kerensky [ilKhan]: ...We are the Clans. We stand on our own merits, not those of our ancestors. Sarah McEvedy [Wolverine]: Except you. Kerensky [ilKhan]: I beg your pardon? McEvedy: I said, except you. You seem perfectly happy to bask in your father's achievements. He was a visionary who sought justice and peace for all. You seek control. Mitchell Loris [Mongoose]: Khan [CENSORED], you go too far. McEvedy: Do I? I know many of you in this chamber found our ilKhan's actions to secure control of the Pentagon population offensive. The Star League did not believe in torture and brutality. Those are the tools of power hungry madmen. Is that what you have become, Nicholas Kerensky? A power hungry madman? [Raised voices from all parties] Kerensky: SILENCE! [CENSORED], Khan of Clan [CENSORED], I, Nicholas Kerensky, ilKhan of the Clans, do call for a Trial of Grievance. By our law, you may..... McEvedy: Hang your laws. Does the truth hurt so much, Nicholas? Is it any surprise that a system begun by such a wretched man went off a cliff, quickly? Eugenics: The Worst Idea by the Ugliest People Instead of the high sounding phrases of Aleksandr Kerensky, the Clans embraced the dirtier, seamier vision of Nicholas. A caste system of near-unyielding rigidity enforced by eugenics and selective breeding in an attempt to make the ultimate warrior, who became the entire point of society- pre:Laborers to till the land, to do the tasks: They shall have our undying gratitude, for they are the muscle behind us all. pre:Merchants to buy and sell with fairness: They shall have our commerce and respect, for they are the bones upon which we are built. pre:Technicians to build and fix the machines: They shall have our admiration: for they are the fingers with which we grasp life. pre:Scientists to create and discover: They shall have our awe and our attention, for they are the mind of our society. pre:And above all the Warriors who protect: They shall have our cooperation and our worship, for they are the blood and soul of us all. Where it is really coming from, of course, is what is the actual fundamental belief of the Clans. Genetic manipulation makes them genetically inherently superior to everyone else, which makes them the divinely mandated rulers of humanity. That is it. That is the one unbreakable dogma of the clans. Forget literally everything else, this is the sole key to the Clans. Why is the caste system so rigid? Because eugenics make trueborn warriors better than freebirths. Why do they have to invade the Inner SPhere? Because eugenics means they should rule freebirths. Why can they glass cities? They are only freebirths, they do not matter. Trueborns are all and nothing else matters. The hell of it is... they are utterly wrong. Elementals are impressive, I will grant. But aerospace? Virtual cripples outside the cockpit, and for what? Aerospace is the one field where the Inner Sphere fights on even terms or maybe even an advantage. Mechwarriors? Yes, very impressive, the top 5% of a sibko is better than the average IS mechwarrior who trains in an academy for four years with a way higher graduation rate. I tell you what. Give me 100 inner sphere freeborns, or clan freeborns, or pirate freeborns, or orphans or whatever. Let me train them literally their entire life to be warriors with methods as harsh and rigorous as I can conceive of, dedicating the kids’ every waking hour to indoctrination and training. Then let me take the top 5% of the ones that began the program, and put them in a Mech. How much you want to bet they will be 3/4 pilots too? Warrior ability is not inheritable. There is no DNA coding for the ability to kill a man with a 100 ton machine's weaponry. Taking the best warriors and having them pass down their genes is not a valid way to improve warrior ability. The Clans' eugenics program is built on a sham, and that is the shaky foundation the identiy of the Clans is built on. Mirages, lies, and hopeful thinking. They build it up with elaborate shells of ritual and high rhetoric, and try to mitigate its effects as much as possibly by aping the meritocratic trials a better man than their founder created, but it is not enough. Then they systematically and viciously discriminate against freeborn warriors, and when as a result those same freeborns are not as good they trumpet that as still more justification of the great lie. And this is why the Clans are such a disappointment, and why Aleksandr Kerensky would have wept to see the monster he created. What if? Imagine if Andery had been the son who became the first ilKhan, and Nicholas the one who died in Klondike. Imagine if he had held the clans up, but maintained them as an ACTUAL meritocratic military and society instead of a shambles of one. If there were no rigidity to the caste system, if you could freely test up or down between castes based on your ability- if the pretty words about skill as a warrior determining your rank were taken seriously. If there was no elaborate attempt to breed humans like cattle for the highly refined skill of pressing a button at the proper time in the proper orientation. Imagine Clans that meant what they said when they claimed to loathe waste, to want to protect civilians from the horrors of war at all costs, to be the embodiment of Aleksandr Kerensky's vision of an SLDF-in-Exile that would one day help rebuild the Star League by showing character and nobility in equal measure with combat ability, instead of by blowing half of it to ashes and dust. Imagine Clans that stayed human. Of course, that would not have made as compelling a story, because the "Invasion" would have looked drastically different if it happened at all. But the story of what might have been in-universe is one that does not really get examined as wistfully in canon as I think it might. And of course, in its own way, the story of the Clans we got is compelling in its own way if you dig down. Betrayal of ideals, the twisting of hopes and rhetoric to serve a mechanistic, flawed scientific regime... it is really a tragedy from an in-universe perspective. Part of this is why I love reading about the Clans so much- when they are handled by a good writer who understands what I have said above (maybe not in as many words, but the basic gist) there is a lot of excellent material to mine for stories and games. And it has happened. I wish it happened more, but it has happened. And there are the more liberal clans- Star Adder, Blood Spirit, Diamond Shark, pre-refusal Wolf/Wolf-in-Exile, the Ghost Bear Dominion and Raven Alliance later on... and it is no accident that those are my favorite clans. They are the most liberal- and in the end, they are the closest to the gallant dream of Aleksandr Kerensky.  *Note: This is the single major diversion point of PTN's history from canon, as I see it. PTN had Aleksandr Kerensky be a weaker man, both in ability and in morality. And we see the result. I hope I am not characterizing him unfairly, but PTN has the Clans without even the tentative branch of positive light that Aleksandr's words are for the Clans. There is nothing but hatred, bile, and viciousness. No hope. No urge to defend. Only to conquer and smash. 
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Aug 28, 2011 01:54
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Mukaikubo posted:The minnisota tribe... the best clan 
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Aug 28, 2011 01:55
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First Post posted:Fluffy Gameplay: That and our patented Goon coordination. And we're Clan troll. Nioclas just jacked a kill to improve his K/D ratio. Next thing you know he'll be spawn camping. e: Damnit, went to track down the post and now there's all this   between this and relevance.gently caress 'em up Goonstar, if you loose Clan U Mad will be relegated even further from the front lines. the JJ fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Aug 28, 2011 |
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Aug 28, 2011 02:01
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Mukaikubo posted:And also why I hate the clans. I hate hypocrites so very much, and that is what the clans became. Minnesota tribe fer life. And PTN please have them show up pleeeease, I want some vengeance going on.
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Aug 28, 2011 02:06
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Mukaikubo posted:Freebirth Slander I am calling for a Trial of Annihilation against your pathetic slander. I have never heard a surat whine as much as I hear you right now.
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Aug 28, 2011 02:06
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Mukaikubo that was an A++ post, and really has helped me understand the Clans better  
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Aug 28, 2011 02:07
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KnoxZone posted:I am calling for a Trial of Annihilation against your pathetic slander. I have never heard a surat whine as much as I hear you right now. [roleplaying time!] I stand by Mukaikubo and call for a Trial of Refusal against your call for a Trial of Annihilation. With what forces do you bid? @Mukaikubo: That was simply a great read, and it should be put in the first or second post. landcollector fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Aug 28, 2011 |
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Aug 28, 2011 02:10
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landcollector posted:[roleplaying time!] Me and a pencil, let's do tic-tac-toe. ... I think I just discover the Clan equivalent of the 'filibuster' option.
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Aug 28, 2011 02:12
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the JJ posted:Me and a pencil, let's do tic-tac-toe. No, you just discovered how to hold a Trial where you draw an X in the center of your board, then your opponent stabs you in the eye with his pencil and declares victory.
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Aug 28, 2011 02:18
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landcollector posted:[roleplaying time!] gently caress that. I call for a Trial of Annihilation against KnoxZone for so insulting one of the most esteemed heirs of Kerensky in this thread.
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Aug 28, 2011 02:21
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Rick_Hunter posted:I don't see Mechwarriors Elfrede or Nioclas saying much this coming turn. Their comm links will be drowned out by the "BUDABUDABUDA" of their 24 machine guns. Gimmick Account posted:Nice turn, but what happened to zell? You focused fire on the very first combat turn and challenged no one. Did something special happen behind the scenes or are you just ignoring clan rules completely? You know, between our put-upon, ineffectual rookie officer...  her insubordinate, trigger-happy squad...  and the looming threat of scary, invisible motherfuckers...  It reminds me of something. Can't for the life of me recall just what, though. 
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Aug 28, 2011 02:22
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Mukaikubo posted:But aerospace? Virtual cripples outside the cockpit, and for what? Aerospace is the one field where the Inner Sphere fights on even terms or maybe even an advantage. This is one of the things that bugs me the most about the clans, because the traits that would be the most important for a fighter pilot (reaction time, g-tolerance, etc.) are the ones that are the most eugenicizable, while mechwarriors aren't. Fighter pilots go through the same sibko stuff that mechwarriors do, don't they? Why are clan mechwarriors so much better at stomping around in giant robots than the inner sphere, while their aerospace pilots are inferior?
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Aug 28, 2011 02:39
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b0lt posted:This is one of the things that bugs me the most about the clans, because the traits that would be the most important for a fighter pilot (reaction time, g-tolerance, etc.) are the ones that are the most eugenicizable, while mechwarriors aren't. Fighter pilots go through the same sibko stuff that mechwarriors do, don't they? Why are clan mechwarriors so much better at stomping around in giant robots than the inner sphere, while their aerospace pilots are inferior? Because Clanner society glorifies Big Stompy Robot combat and sees everything else as inferior. I'd be willing to bet that Clan aeropilots get the second-rate birthing labs and cheaper nutritional supplements and whatnot. The thing that most often gets overlooked by people looking at the Clans as a fighting force is that there are societal pressures that have led to them being dramatically suboptimized. Their society is gimped, so their philosophy of combined arms is also gimped. It's kinda like asking why the ancient Spartans didn't produce amazing peltasts (slingers, ranged skirmishers) - because their society spat upon that sort of thing, regardless of how many fights it could have helped them win.
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Aug 28, 2011 02:47
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Dolash posted:Stand back, I call V4. Gotta get me a set of Locusts. Sorry, pal, but me jumping to 1511 and firing on V4 might be the better of two options I see. I could also jump to 0708, right behind the Phoenix Hawk, but I don't think I can damage it enough on my own. Also, there are most likely
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Aug 28, 2011 02:58
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Mukaikubo posted:
This. This this this this this. Along with the unique bit from Clan Wolf in Exile, that up there is my most beloved part of the Remembrance, and I have tried and I have tried to figure out why the clans are all so much "higher and mightier than thou" over the lower castes and freeborn. I really should have come to the conclusion earlier that for all the genetic manipulation they do, they cannot engineer out basic human nature.
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Aug 28, 2011 03:09
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A good poster posted:Sorry, pal, but me jumping to 1511 and firing on V4 might be the better of two options I see. I could also jump to 0708, right behind the Phoenix Hawk, but I don't think I can damage it enough on my own. Also, there are most likely 0906 is another good deep-jump position. You'll be in the Javelin's blind spot and leave terrible shots for the Phoenix Hawk and Panther. Just watch out for ninjas, bears, aliens, and whatever other boogeymen I dream up between now and the next update.
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Aug 28, 2011 03:18
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Please tell me Clan Wolverine survives in the PTN timeline. Apart from Clan Ghost Bear, the Wolverines are my favorite. One of the Piranha pilots needs to challenge a DEST team to single combat. Maybe we'll get lucky and find an honorable ninja. And introduce him and all of his friends to a dozen or so machine guns.
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Aug 28, 2011 03:49
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Mary Annette posted:0906 is another good deep-jump position. You'll be in the Javelin's blind spot and leave terrible shots for the Phoenix Hawk and Panther. Just watch out for ninjas, bears, aliens, and whatever other boogeymen I dream up between now and the next update. I didn't think of that, but I've now decided that it's not yet time to get hosed by those infantry. Orders sent.
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Aug 28, 2011 04:28
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And so Brank dies first and anticlimactically. Again. Bwahahaha. Don't forget, Poptarts, with Brank's death Pesht has now gone from (doormat) to (schemer). And remember, gang, Goodall will make an excellent bondsman!
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Aug 28, 2011 05:26
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Mukaikubo posted:I'm sure upon presenting your findings to a clan loremaster and his scribes, they would blankly stare at you and blame the Inner Sphere for polluting their pristine culture. But seriously, excellent write up, Muk. I see that even though Samantha Clover is a mechwarrior by genetics, she is destined to be the next loremaster of Clan Steel Viper.
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Aug 28, 2011 05:52
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A good poster posted:Sorry, pal, but me jumping to 1511 and firing on V4 might be the better of two options I see. I could also jump to 0708, right behind the Phoenix Hawk, but I don't think I can damage it enough on my own. Also, there are most likely Hm, you make a good point. I really want to complete a brace of locust kills, but if it's too risky maybe I should instead- Bobbin Threadbare posted:And remember, gang, Goodall will make an excellent bondsman! ...Hm. Hm.
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Aug 28, 2011 06:18
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Mukaikubo posted:(EVERYTHING YOU WANTED TO KNOW ABOUT THE CLANS) I'd developed a strong dislike of the Clans because I always felt they were contradictory and hypocritical, but didn't know quite enough about them to put my distaste to words. Thank you for doing it for me. I can appreciate the Clans a lot more now that I know precisely how far they've fallen from Aleksandr's ideals and how much of a freaking Amaris lilKhan Nicky was. Diogenes Cynicus posted:Please tell me Clan Wolverine survives in the PTN timeline. Apart from Clan Ghost Bear, the Wolverines are my favorite. I, too, have wondered about the Wolverines! He must have something up his sleeves. (If they're unClannishly masquerading around as the forces of the descendant of the Great Archenemy then I'll kick myself for not voting RWR.) PoptartsNinja posted:(TURN 3) I'm disappointed that Brank bit it first. I was going to suggest half-jokingly that a member of Goonstar challenge him to a Battlemech Dance-off. And he would accept and doom himself to suicide by critical repeated Piloting roll failure. and then someone would have then said "you have just gotten served, surat"
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Aug 28, 2011 07:14
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Rorac posted:[...] I have tried and I have tried to figure out why the clans are all so much "higher and mightier than thou" over the lower castes and freeborn. [...] for all the genetic manipulation they do, they cannot engineer out basic human nature. It all starts to make sense if you realize that 'Khan' is a reference. Not to a title, but to a 'who'. T.G. Xarbala posted:I'm disappointed that Brank bit it first. I was going to suggest half-jokingly that a member of Goonstar challenge him to a Battlemech Dance-off. And he would accept and doom himself to suicide by critical repeated Piloting roll failure. To be fair, he did fail his PSR. It just happened after the point where it already didn't matter. PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 07:48 on Aug 28, 2011 |
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Aug 28, 2011 07:44
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Mary Annette posted:
Predator?  
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Aug 28, 2011 08:48
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Tarquinn posted:Predator?
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Aug 28, 2011 09:10
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PoptartsNinja posted:It all starts to make sense if you realize that 'Khan' is a reference. Damnit, where's James T. when you need him?
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Aug 28, 2011 09:23
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ShadowDragon8685 posted:Damnit, where's James T. when you need him? Either dead under a bridge or cruising around the wrong century in a hilariously misconceived series of novels, depending.
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Aug 28, 2011 10:05
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Mukaikubo posted:And there are the more liberal clans- Star Adder, Blood Spirit, Diamond Shark, pre-refusal Wolf/Wolf-in-Exile, the Ghost Bear Dominion and Raven Alliance later on... Oh boy, are you gonna get a shock with Wars of Reaving.  The Star Adders weren't the most gigantic gently caress-ups there, but they certainly competed. Though their finishing touch was an equal mixture of magnificent bastardry and plain douchebaggery. (Also, why did Vlad Ward suddenly get to be such a magnificent bastard? drat, now I can't properly hate the guy anymore.)
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Aug 28, 2011 13:33
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Magni posted:Oh boy, are you gonna get a shock with Wars of Reaving. Eh, the Adders *were* one of the more liberal clans, but they- like the Scorpions and Cobras- took a hard turn in the Wars of Reaving.
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Aug 28, 2011 15:00
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an oddly awful oud posted:That's only half true; some Clan assaults have both ES internals and FF armor, but a Standard engine instead of an XL. It's mostly on second-liners like the Marauder IIC and Warhammer IIC, but the Kingfisher omni also has that layout. The semi-canon (IIRC it's a Mechforce UK design) Iron Cheetah has all 3, I believe, on a 100 tonner. Of course, it uses a 400 XLFE and 16 fixed heat sinks, which is rather inefficient. The other way endo/ferro/XL can work is if you use extremely light low-crit weaponry, like UAC/2 or 5s, in which case you have... well, a bunch of low-caliber UACs. On assaults, internals are a premium and you'll take a lot of fire, so high-expense weight saving materials are generally mediocre. For Clans, you'll probably want to go XL first, then Endo, then Ferro. On the combat situation now, it looks like you're at a very significant advantage right now, since you just wiped an enemy Locust and unless you get stuck in with the infantry or those remaining mechs are packing some surprises, you'll probably be just fine. So remember, if you have a forest, send the guys with A-Pods and MGs in first drat it.
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Aug 28, 2011 15:03
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This match is already reminding me of the first game with the Kell Hounds. Looks like the Piranhas can just curl right up that flank and toast the other bug this turn. I wonder if taking out the Panther will let you boys just peck the rest to death at your leisure.
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Aug 28, 2011 16:38
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I don't really know anything about Battletech outside this thread, so I have to ask. What is Far Country, and why is everyone so glad to be murdering its protagonists?
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Aug 28, 2011 17:21
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I downloaded SSW and made a thing. Input was given and accepted by the #megamek hivemind. The theme is its a 3050 IS Atlas with some nice features. The main ride of someone with a bit of clout. The channel dubbed it the Trastlas.  quote:Trastlas With a 3/4 pilot it went 1-1 against an equal or better clan medium in sniping contests. The win was on an 8.3% chance to hit gauss round right to the head. The loss came against a Pariah hiding in a hardened building. Shadow's large laser was glued to my torso and cooked my engines.
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Aug 28, 2011 17:24
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It's a Battletech novel. It was the target of derision in this very thread, including a couple people doing a "Let's Read".
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Aug 28, 2011 17:25
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So is anyone else getting the feeling that even with the threat of three teams of invisible space ninjas lurking about, this has been a bit too easy so far? My instincts are screaming that something bad for the Goonstar is going to happen within the next turn or two.
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Aug 28, 2011 17:27
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legoman727 posted:I don't really know anything about Battletech outside this thread, so I have to ask.
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Aug 28, 2011 17:28
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Trast posted:I downloaded SSW and made a thing. Input was given and accepted by the #megamek hivemind. The theme is its a 3050 IS Atlas with some nice features. The main ride of someone with a bit of clout. The channel dubbed it the Trastlas. Hey now, give my HAG/40 some credit. It shredded your LBX autocannon.
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Aug 28, 2011 17:28
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