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Colonel Pancreas posted:Wait a minute...looking back over the thread it looks like a few assumptions I made aren't as safe as I thought? Yah, both of those things are very minority opinions. Jon not dying has been foreshadowed way too much, and the content of Ramsay's letter makes little sense if he had indeed routed Stannis. Neither of these things are going to turn out as they appear to at the end of DWD.
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Aug 31, 2011 00:27
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Probably time to start talking about Mance writing the letter again.
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Aug 31, 2011 00:30
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bigmcgaffney posted:Probably time to start talking about Mance writing the letter again. I guess I missed this but just finished the book a few weeks ago. Why would Mance write that letter? Edit: And Jon is obviously not dead for good or maybe dead at all. Its just like how he ended Arya in AFFC. He could warg into Ghost (or a person for that matter), turn into a Coldhands type, die and be resurrected practically insntantly, etc. I doubt he even actually dies at all and Melisandre heals him, and he gets superpowered like Victarion's arm. Or he wags into the Giant and owns everyone which would be awesome but won't happen. insider fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Aug 31, 2011 |
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Aug 31, 2011 00:36
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It would be kind of awesome if the "twist" with Jon was that he's actually dead for real.
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Aug 31, 2011 00:41
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Colonel Pancreas posted:words I would only point out that you're wrong about Tyrion's claim to Casterly Rock in this sense: Tyrion was always the rightful heir of Casterly Rock, from the minute Jamie joined the Kingsguard. That's partly why Tywin was so pissed. The only thing that nullifies that claim would be his conviction and disinheritance by the throne, and even then Kevan being alive or dead has absolutely no legal bearing on it.
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Aug 31, 2011 00:44
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Ramsay Bolton is an evil lying rear end in a top hat who makes Theon Greyjoy look good, and I refuse to believe a word of his bullshit for a second.  Also,  is up with Varys's creepy murder children?
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Aug 31, 2011 00:50
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insider posted:I guess I missed this but just finished the book a few weeks ago.
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Aug 31, 2011 00:57
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Colonel Pancreas posted:-Stannis. I figured Ramsay was taking the piss out of Jon, and I never really considered the possibility that the battle has actually been fought. Seems unlikely, at best. Yeah, this. By the end of aDwD, Stannis has no reason at all to fight Ramsay. The last thing we know is that the Braavosi banker guy arrives at his camp, bringing Theon and Fake Arya. The Braavosi was sent to Westeros to offer Stannis an army to win the kingdom, pretty much. Theon knows how bad the situation at Winterfell, so now Stannis knows that there is no hurry. And the importance of Fake Arya is self-explanatory. The letter was probably sent by Ramsay, he has a very real reason to want Jon dead: as far as he knows, Jon is the only one who can confirm that Fake Arya is, well, a fake (nobody in the north would care about what Theon says, Sansa is missing and accused of murder, Bran and Rickon missing and thought dead, etc).
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Aug 31, 2011 01:18
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I figured that GRRM put in the detail of the sealing wax being smudged as an intentional clue that the letter is fishy. It seems like a weird detail to add if it doesn't signify anything. Also, I really loving hope Jon is dead, but I don't think he is. It would tickle me pink to see Brienne be Azor Ahai.
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Aug 31, 2011 01:19
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I hope at least one of Jon and Stannis are actually dead just because pulling the "Aha! He's not really dead!" fliparoo twice in one chapter is kind of lame. Does it bother anyone else's OC-ness that the next book starts with "The" and all the others start with "A"? =\ Ross fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Aug 31, 2011 |
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Aug 31, 2011 01:46
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I'm wondering why anyone is paying attention to prophecies because prophecies are hideously unreliable and prone to misinterpretation. Also, it's transparently obvious that Shireen will be the only one who survives the imminent massacre at Castle Black and the horrors that will ensue when the Wall falls to the Others, because she's already dead. She will travel across Westeros, bringing the taint of greyscale wherever she goes until the world is covered with groaning horrors with stony limbs.
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Aug 31, 2011 02:20
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Mad Hamish posted:I'm wondering why anyone is paying attention to prophecies because prophecies are hideously unreliable and prone to misinterpretation. Well then. I'm still rooting for Ser pounce and shaggydog, but given martin's tendency to write about sex I think your bet is safer. Also, jon we see get stabbed from his pov. Stannis we hear about getting killed from a letter of questionable origin. It's not quite the same in switcheroo terms. builds character fucked around with this message at 03:33 on Aug 31, 2011 |
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Aug 31, 2011 03:31
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Benjen is Coldhands right?
Umph fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Aug 31, 2011 |
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Aug 31, 2011 03:59
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Ross posted:
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Aug 31, 2011 04:50
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Should've titled the book A Feast With Crows and just been all about the Night's Watch getting lots of supplies and endlessly describing their meals in 120 Days of Sodom style.
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Aug 31, 2011 05:17
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Umph posted:Benjen is Coldhands right? That was my initial thought, but you figure Bran would notice.
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Aug 31, 2011 05:45
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Wasn't Coldhands described as having a scarf or something covering the lower part of his face? I do remember a scene where they notice he isn't breathing because his breath doesn't show in the cold, but I was under the impression that he had a covered face.Erakko posted:Yeah, this. By the end of aDwD, Stannis has no reason at all to fight Ramsay. The last thing we know is that the Braavosi banker guy arrives at his camp, bringing Theon and Fake Arya. The Braavosi was sent to Westeros to offer Stannis an army to win the kingdom, pretty much. Theon knows how bad the situation at Winterfell, so now Stannis knows that there is no hurry. And the importance of Fake Arya is self-explanatory. Couldn't the letter have been sent by Stannis or the Bravosi banker? Keep in mind that Theon is with them and knows everything that Ramsey knows, including how to forge a letter from him. He might not have known that it was Mance who snuck them out, but Stannis or the banker might have known since Melisandre was part of the plan. The idea might have been to get the wildlings/Night's Watch to come down on Winterfell and do Stannis's job for him so that he could sweep through and take the castle, claim the victory, bolster his army, get rid of Jon and replace him with someone loyal to Stannis and basically secure the North in one fell swoop without spilling hardly any of his army's ow blood. It doesn't make perfect sense but it could be tied together well enough and it doesn't make sense for Stannis to lose at Winterfell. Slowpoke! fucked around with this message at 08:22 on Aug 31, 2011 |
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Aug 31, 2011 08:13
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I doubt that Jon or Stannis are dead because the plot of the book was originally supposed to be stuff took place during a time-skip. Surely he wouldn't have killed off either of those characters so unceremoniously.
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Aug 31, 2011 08:32
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Martin Van Buren posted:I was actually just makin' japes, I don't think Brienne is Azor Ahai. But I henceforth take all credit for this theory if it proves to have any merit. The stone dragon has puzzled me a lot. I still have no idea what it is/can be and ADWD has only complicated stuff. Were it the petrified eggs? The stone dragon in Dragonstone that Mellisandre wanted to wake with blood magic? The theory about the dragon under Winterfell that got released in the sack, and the winged snake in the sky that Summer saw? Or is there now a connection with the greyscale and Aegon? Blackfyre was the name of one of the ancestral swords of House Targaryen. Aegon IV had a lot of bastard children, and he legitimized them all on his death bed. Deamon Blackfyre was one of them, and rebelled against Daeron II, son of Aegon IV. His half-brother Aegor Rivers, aka Bittersteel joined him, while his other half-brother Bryndin Rivers, aka Bloodraven, sided with the loyalist. On the battle of the Redgrass field, Bloodraven killed Daemon Blackfyre with arrows (and has been accused of being a kinslayer because of this). Bittersteel, rallied the troops, killed a large part of Bloodraven's archers, and took out one eye of Bloodraven. He also retrieved the sword Blackfyre from the now dead Daemon. As loyalist troops arrived, he withdrew and eventually fled across the narrow sea. There he founded the mercenary company called the Golden Company. Many outcast lords of Westeros joined them. With now all of Aegon IV's bastards dead (except Bloodraven, but he is a special case), there isn't much Targ in the company anymore. The last of them died in the War of the Ninepenny Kings when they tried to cross across the Step Stones. However, there are theories that the current Aegon pretender is actually a (grand)son of one of the bastards, instead of a son of Rhaegar. This could imply that Vaerys and Illyrio's loyalties are not with Dany, but rather with the bastard tree of the Targ dynasty.
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Aug 31, 2011 08:46
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UR1S posted:I figured that GRRM put in the detail of the sealing wax being smudged as an intentional clue that the letter is fishy. It seems like a weird detail to add if it doesn't signify anything. Maybe he smeared it because he was angry when he wrote it. Ramsey doesn't even seem like the type of guy to put much effort into pleasantries like nice wax sealing under the best of circumstances.
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Aug 31, 2011 09:03
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What would be the justification of Jon turning into a wight when he wasn't killed by the others? Catelyn/Dondarrion style undead yes, but I don't see how he will become a wight. (except if they also had blue eyes and I somehow missed it in the books)
Gmaz fucked around with this message at 11:25 on Aug 31, 2011 |
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Aug 31, 2011 11:20
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Remember that they make a big deal out of that corpse thrown into the ice cells not turning into a wight. Presumably the magic of the Wall blocks the ability of the Others to make wights. The boring and predictable path is that Mel has Jon's body put into an ice cell to preserve it, he spends most of the book having adventures as Ghost, and then Mel warms up his body in her magic microwave and brings his spirit back into it.
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Aug 31, 2011 13:33
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If Coldhands is Benjen (I was really hoping for a definitive answer to that) it may mean that Stark blood allows you to become a goodie wight. But yeah, there's no precedent for someone who's killed by a human on the southern side of the wall to get zombified. I read the 'Jon is stabbed to death by the night's watch' spoiler before the book came out, but the scene played out a lot differently to what I expected. It really doesn't sound like he's dead at all.
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Aug 31, 2011 13:35
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Junkenstein posted:It really doesn't sound like he's dead at all. Well no, he's just resting.
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Aug 31, 2011 13:41
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This and the following quote are pretty wild baseless speculation.pksage posted:Presumably the magic of the Wall blocks the ability of the Others to make wights. Or the Others have to be close to a corpse to wight it. Junkenstein posted:If Coldhands is Benjen (I was really hoping for a definitive answer to that) it may mean that Stark blood allows you to become a goodie wight. Seriously? If this turns out true it will ruin the entire series. Also I don't think Bran would have noticed Dead Uncle Benjen. Dude's face was covered, and Bran is a child in an extremely stressful terrifying life-threatening situation. Probably not the most observant. Maytag fucked around with this message at 14:09 on Aug 31, 2011 |
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Aug 31, 2011 14:07
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So how is it reasonable that anyone will survive X years of winter when after just a month nobody can move anywhere? Will it get just as bad in further south or? I always figured that in the whole Summer/Winter cycles there were like Winter years that were simply a lot colder but they still had spring and like thaws and maybe a month here and there where you could plant poo poo. If its four years of real loving cold winter how do any trees and poo poo survive?
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Aug 31, 2011 14:09
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Maytag posted:Seriously? If this turns out true it will ruin the entire series. Well, I agree it would be stupid for Jon to become a wight. Yes, I think the whole reason Coldhands was covering his face was so that he's not revealed as Benjen. After ten loving years of wondering if it is him though, this was one answer I was really hoping for and even expecting.
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Aug 31, 2011 14:16
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pksage posted:Remember that they make a big deal out of that corpse thrown into the ice cells not turning into a wight. Presumably the magic of the Wall blocks the ability of the Others to make wights. If by magic microwave, you mean her vagina, then I will be on board for Jon being born as a shadow.
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Aug 31, 2011 14:37
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What is the Azhor Azai prophecy anyway?
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Aug 31, 2011 15:19
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Slowpoke! posted:Couldn't the letter have been sent by Stannis or the Bravosi banker? Do you think Stannis would flat-out lie to achieve his goals? Because that letter is quite full of lies.
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Aug 31, 2011 15:29
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soru posted:It would be kind of awesome if the "twist" with Jon was that he's actually dead for real. No that would be stupid because it would mean his whole goddamn plot line went all of nowhere which is why it is a stupid cliffhanger.
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Aug 31, 2011 15:29
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pksage posted:Remember that they make a big deal out of that corpse thrown into the ice cells not turning into a wight. Presumably the magic of the Wall blocks the ability of the Others to make wights. If that were the case then how did the wights that attacked Jon in the Lord Commander's office in GoT come about because weren't the bodies being kept somewhere in castle black too? Unless they were already wights when they were found and somehow wights can go into some kind of sleep or hibernation thing to activate when they can cause the most mayhem.
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Aug 31, 2011 15:35
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Affi posted:What is the Azhor Azai prophecy anyway? quote:According to prophecy originating from Asshai over five thousand years ago, Azor Ahai is to be reborn again as The Prince that was Promised to challenge the Others. The prophecy states that "when the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone." This will occur after a long summer when an evil, cold darkness descends upon the world. It is said that The Prince that was Promised, wielding Lightbringer once again, will stand against the Others and if he fails, the world fails with him.
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Aug 31, 2011 15:41
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Junkenstein posted:If Coldhands is Benjen (I was really hoping for a definitive answer to that) it may mean that Stark blood allows you to become a goodie wight. But yeah, there's no precedent for someone who's killed by a human on the southern side of the wall to get zombified. I don't think there's any reason to think that Jon is even dead at this point. It's just as likely that he's seriously injured and will be nursed back to health, which could still be considered a metaphorical "death" and resurrection. Basically we aren't really given enough info at this point to make a good guess. Edit: quote:According to prophecy originating from Asshai over five thousand years ago, Azor Ahai is to be reborn again as The Prince that was Promised to challenge the Others. The prophecy states that "when the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone." This will occur after a long summer when an evil, cold darkness descends upon the world. It is said that The Prince that was Promised, wielding Lightbringer once again, will stand against the Others and if he fails, the world fails with him. It would be awesome if Jon fails at the end of the series and all of Westeros is pulled into eternal winter. Sexpansion fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Aug 31, 2011 |
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Aug 31, 2011 16:05
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OperaMouse posted:The stone dragon has puzzled me a lot. I still have no idea what it is/can be and ADWD has only complicated stuff. Stannis is the lord of Dragon Stone. I still think Dany is Azor Ahai though. JerkyBunion fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Aug 31, 2011 |
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Aug 31, 2011 17:18
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Affi posted:So how is it reasonable that anyone will survive X years of winter when after just a month nobody can move anywhere? Will it get just as bad in further south or?
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Aug 31, 2011 17:24
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Hot Dog Day #31 posted:If that were the case then how did the wights that attacked Jon in the Lord Commander's office in GoT come about because weren't the bodies being kept somewhere in castle black too? Unless they were already wights when they were found and somehow wights can go into some kind of sleep or hibernation thing to activate when they can cause the most mayhem. The ice cells are carved directly into the Wall, so he could handwave the other wights as "being too far from the Wall's influence" or whatever. But that begs the question of why all corpses in the North aren't rising up.
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Aug 31, 2011 17:31
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I think it's just easier to say that the corpses earlier were already in the process of Wightifying when they were brought past the wall.
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Aug 31, 2011 17:34
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JerkyBunion posted:Yea man. How could something so fantastical happen in a book about dragons and zombies and sorceresses and people turning into magical loving trees? Doesn't make sense, man. But to answer the question, one assumes that the plants and animals in Westeros have adapted to long summer/winter cycles. One also assumes that a winter is usually not THAT severe. The past few have been milder, if I remember the text correctly. One also assumes the winters are not as bad in the southern parts of Westeros. Kind of hard to imagine Dorne being covered in snow.
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Aug 31, 2011 17:43
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Junkenstein posted:Well, I agree it would be stupid for Jon to become a wight. Wasn't there a discussion with Bloodraven about Coldhands where they say Coldhands has been around for a long long time? Also, why the hell does Dany believe everythign Quaithe says? How did Quaithe gain so much of Dany's confidence?
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Aug 31, 2011 17:53
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