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robcat
Jan 31, 2005

poser posted:

My old place had a garage so my roommate and I aired our stuff out in there and it smelled horrible. Now I live with my FIANCEE and use a utility closet and try to air my gear out before I put it in there but I have a piss happy kitty so it makes it hard.

What rink you play at?

I haven't joined a league yet, but I'm doing beginner classes at Oakland on Sundays, and the drop in class at Belmont on Thursdays. I think I'm going to end up playing at Oakland.

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bewbies
Sep 23, 2003

Fun Shoe

sellouts posted:

So basically "we are a classy establishment that has matching uniforms" (too many players skate with their head down and everyone looks the same lol)

So yeah, if your team has a Toronto jerseys you can't just get a blue plain practice jersey. I was drafted on a team that had Maine jerseys once, that was fun to track down.

Jesus man what the gently caress is this hockey nazi poo poo.

Also sweat pants don't look weird.

poser
Jun 9, 2002

Are they booing the power play?

I was saying Boo-urns!

sellouts posted:

So basically "we are a classy establishment that has matching uniforms" (too many players skate with their head down and everyone looks the same lol)

So yeah, if your team has a Toronto jerseys you can't just get a blue plain practice jersey. I was drafted on a team that had Maine jerseys once, that was fun to track down.

That is lame and awesome at the same time none of my teams ever match:smith: But I hate how they always require dark and light. When I played roller team X picked color Y and they "owned" that color and it made getting jerseys less of a pain.

robcat posted:

I haven't joined a league yet, but I'm doing beginner classes at Oakland on Sundays, and the drop in class at Belmont on Thursdays. I think I'm going to end up playing at Oakland.

There are a few of us around in the Bay Area + 916 area. the Belmont rink seems like it might be the best option to a mini hockey meet.

Molotov Yogurt
Nov 29, 2000

buff man riddim

bewbies posted:

Also sweat pants don't look weird.
:stare: If you're going down that road just go all out and get some Cooperalls.

Anyone playing ASHL Winnipeg? My team won D1B last year and we were a game away from going to the Western D championships in exotic ~Saskatoon~.

bewbies
Sep 23, 2003

Fun Shoe


This is the height of fashion, everyone just admit it

sellouts
Apr 23, 2003

poser posted:

That is lame and awesome at the same time none of my teams ever match:smith:

This is the actual reason for the rule. Basically it's an old boys league who have teams that have been around forever that register as one team instead of individuals and want to play "this is a serious team!!!", so they buy 1 set of socks and are set for several seasons. They don't give a gently caress about the cost/difficulty of a new player joining the team (they actually like that it's harder to get into the league I'm sure) and they don't care if a new team joins as a draft team (all new players) who have to decide on a jersey, order it, then the money is wasted the next season when that bunch of random players didn't gel together and the team dissolves or the good players get picked off by already established teams.

robcat
Jan 31, 2005

poser posted:

There are a few of us around in the Bay Area + 916 area. the Belmont rink seems like it might be the best option to a mini hockey meet.

Aside from the fact that the Belmont rink itself is pretty garbage, it does seem like a nice halfway point.

Minister Robathan
Jan 3, 2007

The Alien Leader of Transportation

sellouts posted:

This is the actual reason for the rule. Basically it's an old boys league who have teams that have been around forever that register as one team instead of individuals and want to play "this is a serious team!!!", so they buy 1 set of socks and are set for several seasons. They don't give a gently caress about the cost/difficulty of a new player joining the team (they actually like that it's harder to get into the league I'm sure) and they don't care if a new team joins as a draft team (all new players) who have to decide on a jersey, order it, then the money is wasted the next season when that bunch of random players didn't gel together and the team dissolves or the good players get picked off by already established teams.

The way I've always seen this kind of thing done is only a couple of players that know they'll be playing together a while buy the jerseys, everyone buys their own socks, and a couple of guys that, know they'll be team captains or whatever and know they'll be playing together for a while buy the rest of the set. Then, the other guys "rent" the jerseys, at a reduced rate, so that way it's not like the entire set is wasted right away.

Molotov Yogurt
Nov 29, 2000

buff man riddim

bewbies posted:



This is the height of fashion, everyone just admit it

Like skiing in jeans.

sellouts
Apr 23, 2003

Minister Robathan posted:

The way I've always seen this kind of thing done is only a couple of players that know they'll be playing together a while buy the jerseys, everyone buys their own socks, and a couple of guys that, know they'll be team captains or whatever and know they'll be playing together for a while buy the rest of the set. Then, the other guys "rent" the jerseys, at a reduced rate, so that way it's not like the entire set is wasted right away.

That's the way it works when teams are organized. One team I played on did that and it was cool. The other teams all had jerseys "walk away" with old players and oops, we need you to buy a new one (season starts on saturday), or you can try calling this complete stranger and see if he picks up (his line is disconnected) and if you can drive 40 miles in the opposite direction to pick up his unwashed, abused jersey (he isnt home when you show up at the agreed upon time or he can't find the jersey anyways but swears it was in his bag).

Playing for teams out here has almost killed my will to play beer league.

gigabitnokie
Dec 2, 2008
Has anybody switched from shooting righty to lefty or vice-versa?

I'm a natural righty and I've always played hockey with a right handed stick but I've been messing with my friends left-handed sticks and I really like the feeling of having my dominant hand up top where it is supposed to be.

waffle enthusiast
Nov 16, 2007



gigabitnokie posted:

Has anybody switched from shooting righty to lefty or vice-versa?

I'm a natural righty and I've always played hockey with a right handed stick but I've been messing with my friends left-handed sticks and I really like the feeling of having my dominant hand up top where it is supposed to be.

How do you hold a shovel? That's the right side to hold your stick. Usually dominant hand up top.

I knew one guy who switched after he'd been playing a while. Took him a few months to get the hang of it again, but he eventually recovered. Just be prepared to suck for about three or four months.

--

Re: Sweatpants.

If you're good enough, you can wear whatever you want. Sweatpants in D-league look stupid. Sweatpants in B league look :smug:

xzzy
Mar 5, 2009

Dangerllama posted:

How do you hold a shovel? That's the right side to hold your stick. Usually dominant hand up top.

Everyone says this, but how many people actually follow it? I went to the rink for lunch, there was 8 guys on the ice, and every single one of them was shooting right side. Either I stumbled into a southpaw convention, or there's no real relationship between handedness and using a hockey stick.

I can see there being some strategy involved.. stick handedness has an effect on shooting angles or boardplay depending on which side of the rink you're on, but other than that, I can't see any significance to it.

Someday I'm going to get a stick with a completely flat blade and switch handedness every shift to test this theory. :colbert:

lazerwolf
Dec 22, 2009

Orange and Black
Its a control versus power thing. Having your dominant hand on the top of the stick helps with control since when/if you stickhandle with one hand, you want that hand to be your dominant hand. On the other hand, if your dominant hand is the lower hand you typically generate more power.

I've always heard of the broom test where you should emulate how you would normaly sweep but this is usually just for younger players. Anyone whose played baseball, soccer or other similar sports already tend to favor one side and you should usually stick to that side because its more natural.

if you are comfortable playing one way, why change it.

E: I sweep exactly how I hold my hockey stick (righty) and I'm right handed

lazerwolf fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Aug 31, 2011

JollyPubJerk
Nov 10, 2009

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Righty plays left. Most players I ever knew were like this every team I've ever played for had a hard time finding right-handed defensemen.

Aniki
Mar 21, 2001

Wouldn't fit...
I'm the captain of a new team at a rink by my house. Do any of you guys have experience running a team before and do you know what sort of problems I should expect? At least I'm a goalie, so I don't need to worry about that part, but I assume the duties will be coming up with lines and making sure that people show up. I also need to come up with team colors and a name. I'm leaning towards something like the Plague Doctors or the Thylacines, but I'm weird and just found out about this an hour ago. Let me know if you guys have any suggestions for team names.

poser
Jun 9, 2002

Are they booing the power play?

I was saying Boo-urns!

Aniki posted:

I'm the captain of a new team at a rink by my house. Do any of you guys have experience running a team before and do you know what sort of problems I should expect? At least I'm a goalie, so I don't need to worry about that part, but I assume the duties will be coming up with lines and making sure that people show up. I also need to come up with team colors and a name. I'm leaning towards something like the Plague Doctors or the Thylacines, but I'm weird and just found out about this an hour ago. Let me know if you guys have any suggestions for team names.


Last season was my first running a team:

People will bail on the team; I had 9 people say they would play and then drop out before the season started
We had 2 people pay and then quit
We had one person join the team, no show the first game and then it took me a week of emailing him daily to find out he quit
So make sure you get good people..

People will complain about everything
Our league has games on random days
Game on Saturday night? Why do we have to give up our sat night
Game at 10 on Tuesday? Why do we have a game so late on a Tuesday

Make sure you have something set up for people to let you know if there are showing up
My league has this thing called hockeyvite(someone stole evites code and made it awesome) and you can say YES NO OR MAYBE if you're going to make it.. still even then people will not tell you they cant make it.

So then you will get a sub so you have a even amount of players, someone will no show and screw the lines up and then people will complain about uneven lines/playing time

Stress a million billion times that you dont give a poo poo if they miss games but they need to tell you

Build a sub list so you have people to contact if you're short..
When we first started my list was like 2 people.. now I know about 10 people I can contact if I'm short

Jerseys... I would wait out the season if your league allows to see how many will stick around. We had 4 people leave the team but we built a core of people so we are getting jerseys this season


You will get new teammates and he will bug you to go grab a beer, make fun of the place you choose and then bail on you to make cheese


I play forward so I notice more stuff with them and build the lines with them. My good friend plays D so he "runs" the D for me so its one less thing to worry about

Find someone you can trust to "run" things when you're gone.. in my league we have to bring pucks and a roster so if I miss a game I need someone I can trust to bring that stuff

Make sure you have the time for all this crap.. I got a job that allows me to spend time on doing stupid poo poo for the team so I don't waste tons of personal time..

Thufir
May 19, 2004

"The fucking Mayans were right."
So CCM has a "Crazy Ovi" stick out that purports to be an authentic Ovechkin curve. It's...pretty curvy.

Alizee
Mar 2, 2006

"Heaven"
I tried that stick at the store it's amazing for wristers and....

Habibi
Dec 8, 2004

We have the capability to make San Jose's first Cup Champion.

The Sharks could be that Champion.

lazerwolf posted:

Its a control versus power thing. Having your dominant hand on the top of the stick helps with control since when/if you stickhandle with one hand, you want that hand to be your dominant hand. On the other hand, if your dominant hand is the lower hand you typically generate more power.
I dunno...there doesn't really seem to be this sort of generalized aspect to it, and I've heard/seen people claim the opposite - that dominant hand on the bottom is better for control and on top is better for power. All I know is that, as a righty, there is no way I could hold my stick left-handed because my left hand has a negative coordination coefficient.

quote:

I've always heard of the broom test where you should emulate how you would normaly sweep

Dangerllama posted:

How do you hold a shovel? That's the right side to hold your stick. Usually dominant hand up top.
The sweeping thing makes more sense to me than the shoveling thing. When I shovel, I have my dominant hand on top to generate force, because there's not a whole lot of minute control that you need to have, as you do in hockey. When I sweep, my dominant hand is on the bottom (as it is when I hold my stick) because that control keeps me from sweeping poo poo in directions I don't want it to go.

In the end, I feel it's all about comfort and what you get used to.

xzzy
Mar 5, 2009

Habibi posted:

When I sweep, my dominant hand is on the bottom (as it is when I hold my stick) because that control keeps me from sweeping poo poo in directions I don't want it to go.

The convention with hockey is you want your more precise hand on the top, you're supposed to do your stickhandling with it. There's even exercises out there where you put a pvc tube on the stick and grip that pvc tube with your lower hand.. prevents you from using it to stickhandle.

Which, again, says to me that there's no One True Way, and it all comes down to player preference.


As for me, I sweep both ways, my grip depends on whether the nooks and crannies in the kitchen are on my right or my left. :colbert:

Habibi
Dec 8, 2004

We have the capability to make San Jose's first Cup Champion.

The Sharks could be that Champion.

xzzy posted:

The convention with hockey is you want your more precise hand on the top, you're supposed to do your stickhandling with it. There's even exercises out there where you put a pvc tube on the stick and grip that pvc tube with your lower hand.. prevents you from using it to stickhandle.

Which, again, says to me that there's no One True Way, and it all comes down to player preference.

Yeah, but it's always seemed to me that this convention was more about people implementing what they thought was the case, as opposed to it having any relation to reality. In other words, that people believe it works better like this, so they start most young players off like it, those players get used to it from a young age, and the myth is perpetuated. Whereas in reality, I think it's all a case of what feels comfortable or what you get used to when you're little.

I suspect that if you took a group of mid-teens who've never held a hockey stick before, the majority would feel more comfortable with the dominant hand on the bottom.

MANIFEST DESTINY
Apr 24, 2009

Captaining beer league teams is stressful as gently caress, and now I realize why my team's former captain was so eager to drop the duty on me.

I took on this job in the summer season, which was a terrible idea, everyone knows that attendance is lovely in the summer. We had a 14 man roster which meant that even with subs we averaged around 11 guys a game which is rough when half your players are Old Dudes.

But now that the fall season is about to start, I have the opposite problem. I've got 18 people on the roster, because everyone who played with us in the spring wants to rejoin and the whole summer squad still wants in. I'm really worried that thats just going to be too many guys on the bench, seriously who runs 4 lines in beer league? There's pretty much no good way to lower the number either, everyone involved has played with us for at least an entire season and I did put out the call to all of them, its just that I expected at least a couple to pass on the season. There's not one person on the roster I wouldn't feel bad about cutting. Its going to be especially annoying when we have like...16 or 17 show up and the lines get all out of whack.

bewbies
Sep 23, 2003

Fun Shoe
We're going through the same thing right now. We have 4-5 guys who really shouldn't be playing in our division (including our goalie), and we have a MAJOR CORPORATION willing to sponsor our team if we can add two more of their employees to our roster (they are both good). So, our captain is looking for a diplomatic way to tell the 5 mediocre guys that they should go play in a lower division (they'd really be better suited there skill-wise, we're not just being dicks) while the rest of us stay up and get most of our ice time paid for.

I dunno, could get ugly.

Habibi
Dec 8, 2004

We have the capability to make San Jose's first Cup Champion.

The Sharks could be that Champion.

bewbies posted:

We're going through the same thing right now. We have 4-5 guys who really shouldn't be playing in our division (including our goalie), and we have a MAJOR CORPORATION willing to sponsor our team if we can add two more of their employees to our roster (they are both good). So, our captain is looking for a diplomatic way to tell the 5 mediocre guys that they should go play in a lower division (they'd really be better suited there skill-wise, we're not just being dicks) while the rest of us stay up and get most of our ice time paid for.

I dunno, could get ugly.

You should post their information on here and have your fellow goons make those highly diplomatic phone calls for your captain.

lazerwolf
Dec 22, 2009

Orange and Black

Habibi posted:

Yeah, but it's always seemed to me that this convention was more about people implementing what they thought was the case, as opposed to it having any relation to reality. In other words, that people believe it works better like this, so they start most young players off like it, those players get used to it from a young age, and the myth is perpetuated. Whereas in reality, I think it's all a case of what feels comfortable or what you get used to when you're little.

I suspect that if you took a group of mid-teens who've never held a hockey stick before, the majority would feel more comfortable with the dominant hand on the bottom.

I think its more of a regional upbringing. There's a couple statistics floating around the internets on this topic that show the majority of Canadian players favor left shots whereas Americans favor right shots. Here's a link to an article about it in the NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/16/sports/olympics/16lefty.html)

If in Canada the "proper way" (and I use that term loosely) to pick a stick's handedness is for the dominant hand on the top, it gets ingrained in the culture.

In the end though its all about preference and once you really start playing with a certain handedness you should probably stick with it.

Habibi
Dec 8, 2004

We have the capability to make San Jose's first Cup Champion.

The Sharks could be that Champion.

lazerwolf posted:

I think its more of a regional upbringing. There's a couple statistics floating around the internets on this topic that show the majority of Canadian players favor left shots whereas Americans favor right shots. Here's a link to an article about it in the NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/16/sports/olympics/16lefty.html)

If in Canada the "proper way" (and I use that term loosely) to pick a stick's handedness is for the dominant hand on the top, it gets ingrained in the culture.

In the end though its all about preference and once you really start playing with a certain handedness you should probably stick with it.

Yeah I've seen that article and plenty of others, and in the end even the regional stuff seems to come down to what people think is best. So in Canada they believe the proper way is for the dominant hand to be on top, so they have players start that way at a young age, and the players get used to it. In the US they hypothesize that exposure to baseball, etc... results in players preferring dominant hand on the bottom because of the way it orients their bodies. So in the end I totally think it's just a matter of preference. If you take two identical, right-handed twins at the age of 5 and have one start with dominant hand on top and one on the bottom, I imagine you're not going to see much difference between their abilities 10+ years down the line.

19 o'clock
Sep 9, 2004

Excelsior!!!

Habibi posted:

You should post their information on here and have your fellow goons make those highly diplomatic phone calls for your captain.

Absolutely this forever and ever.

We had to drop our goalie from last season. She's a sweet lady, but can't get off of her knees to save her life...much less a cheesy goal. My captain broke it to her. gently caress that job.

Doctor Butts
May 21, 2002

Habibi posted:

results in players preferring dominant hand on the bottom because of the way it orients their bodies.

This is why I cannot fathom being right handed and having the stick on the left hand side of my body when making shots. Or, I'm just not coordinated enough to move my body the right way on the opposite side of myself.

Aniki
Mar 21, 2001

Wouldn't fit...

poser posted:

Last season was my first running a team:

People will bail on the team; I had 9 people say they would play and then drop out before the season started
We had 2 people pay and then quit
We had one person join the team, no show the first game and then it took me a week of emailing him daily to find out he quit
So make sure you get good people..

People will complain about everything
Our league has games on random days
Game on Saturday night? Why do we have to give up our sat night
Game at 10 on Tuesday? Why do we have a game so late on a Tuesday

Make sure you have something set up for people to let you know if there are showing up
My league has this thing called hockeyvite(someone stole evites code and made it awesome) and you can say YES NO OR MAYBE if you're going to make it.. still even then people will not tell you they cant make it.

So then you will get a sub so you have a even amount of players, someone will no show and screw the lines up and then people will complain about uneven lines/playing time

Stress a million billion times that you dont give a poo poo if they miss games but they need to tell you

Build a sub list so you have people to contact if you're short..
When we first started my list was like 2 people.. now I know about 10 people I can contact if I'm short

Jerseys... I would wait out the season if your league allows to see how many will stick around. We had 4 people leave the team but we built a core of people so we are getting jerseys this season


You will get new teammates and he will bug you to go grab a beer, make fun of the place you choose and then bail on you to make cheese


I play forward so I notice more stuff with them and build the lines with them. My good friend plays D so he "runs" the D for me so its one less thing to worry about

Find someone you can trust to "run" things when you're gone.. in my league we have to bring pucks and a roster so if I miss a game I need someone I can trust to bring that stuff

Make sure you have the time for all this crap.. I got a job that allows me to spend time on doing stupid poo poo for the team so I don't waste tons of personal time..

I’m expecting that people will bail and to a certain extent, I’m ok with that, since it means that I can begin putting my own people on the team. For now, the league director is recruiting the players and only giving me the info for people who have already paid, so I need to wait for him to finish acquiring players. As you said, I’m hoping that we can find a core group of guys out of that group and I’ll definitely need to find an alternate/assistant captain that wants to handle talking to players on the bench and dealing with refs. I can probably get a handle on lines after a couple games, but I see the game differently from the crease than they do on the ice, so I’d like to have a player handle lines and I’d just provide some input.

I like the idea of using the hockeyvite system and I’ll use something like that along with emails and a team facebook page to try and make sure that people know when the games are. I’ll definitely stress that I don’t care if people need to miss games, but please let know ahead of time, so that I can make sure that we have enough people and find subs. At least I don’t have to worry about finding a goalie that shows up, so I have that part settled and I know people who could sub if I can’t make it.

The league does have jerseys that we can use, so we’ll start off wearing those and I’m seeing if anyone is willing to sponsor the team or front money for the jerseys, so we’ll see what happens with that. I’m fine waiting until the second season to get real jerseys, but I’m still trying to get ideas on pricing. I do know that I want the logo and numbers to be sewn on, since screen printed and heat pressed logos and numbers go to poo poo pretty fast. We will have issues with weird game times for the first half of the season, but once the third rink opens up, then the schedule should get better.

I’m going to start working on a sublist soon. I’m checking with some people that I know who run teams at another rink to see if I can ask their players to sub or play in our league, since it wouldn’t conflict with their league, but I’m asking first since I don’t want to cause drama.

I’ll need to get a puck bag and some pucks. Would I want to have about 10-15 pucks? I’ll need to see if we are required to bring a roster or not.
I should have time to run things and people are happy with doing most of the communication online, then that makes things a lot easier for me.

I think the second season is when roster issues will get really annoying, since for now I don’t have to worry about players paying and telling people that they can’t come back. Hopefully, we won’t need to do the latter, but we’ll see if any jerks or deadbeats emerge.

Doctor Butts
May 21, 2002

Good for you. Our team captain quit and we need someone else. I was just the captain of a rec volleyball team one year and when someone asked if I wanted to captain this team I said "FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK THAT"

poser
Jun 9, 2002

Are they booing the power play?

I was saying Boo-urns!
I got these pucks

http://www.ebay.com/itm/48-Asst-Hoc...30#ht_500wt_922

Its a bunch of pucks but the price per is cheap and we always lose them. I got Kings and Hurricanes

xzzy
Mar 5, 2009

I'm in a gear buying phase. Is the advice in the OP still good or is there stuff out now that's more popular / better deal?

Verman
Jul 4, 2005
Third time is a charm right?

xzzy posted:

I'm in a gear buying phase. Is the advice in the OP still good or is there stuff out now that's more popular / better deal?

Its all still pretty standard. This thread isn't that old, if you look around the same price range as the stuff listed, its either newer versions of the same models/product lines or they have given the line a new name.

What specifically are you looking to buy? That might determine how relevant your question is.

xzzy
Mar 5, 2009

Pretty much everything.. except helmet, cup, skates, and sticks.

I've been using hand-me-downs the last several months and now that I have some extra cash and "the season" is about to ramp up, I want to get my own poo poo.

I have no problems with the info in the OP, it more or less echoes what I was going to get, I was just wondering if there were any hidden gems in the 2011 lineup.

Thufir
May 19, 2004

"The fucking Mayans were right."

xzzy posted:

I'm in a gear buying phase. Is the advice in the OP still good or is there stuff out now that's more popular / better deal?

You probably won't be able to get the clearance deals listed in the OP since most of that stuff is gone by now.

ex: You can't really find cheap x:40 skates anymore and the x:5.0 that replaces it is $330.

If you want to buy stuff online icewarehouse does free shipping over $100, plus they have this "I Win" thing where if you buy certain of their branded things you can get 10% off non-clearance stuff forever. I got this $15 hoodie: http://www.icewarehouse.com/descpage.html?pcode=IWSCH (which is a real nice hoodie) and have saved way more than that with the 10% discount.

Thufir fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Sep 1, 2011

xzzy
Mar 5, 2009

Yeah, I'm not price hunting. I just want stuff that'll last a reasonable time. If it's a good price, even better but it's not my motivation.

Alizee
Mar 2, 2006

"Heaven"
I bought all the rest of my hockey gear. It's all sick. I'm so excited to start playing!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Topoisomerase
Apr 12, 2007

CULTURE OF VICIOUSNESS

JollyPubJerk posted:

They must fall a lot.


I don't fall on my own a lot, but I do go down on a knee/shin to block shots/centering passes frequently and fight in front of the net a lot where people's sticks get tied up with my legs. That's how all my socks get torn.

Oh yeah, if we have a mini hockeymeet in Oakland or near it I am definitely down for coming out to play (if you don't mind the lack of a Y chromosome anyway).

edit: contributing to the handedness thing - I write right the majority of the time (though my left hand will do in a pinch), switch hit in baseball/softball, throw right, bowl left, but do anything requiring two hands and a stick left-handed (sweep, shovel, play hockey, play pool, etc). I also draw blood and place IV catheters with my left hand (I'm a veterinary student).

I started playing hockey long before I started softball or any of those other activities, for what it's worth.

Topoisomerase fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Sep 1, 2011

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sellouts
Apr 23, 2003

Thufir posted:

So CCM has a "Crazy Ovi" stick out that purports to be an authentic Ovechkin curve. It's...pretty curvy.



And I thought Sakic's pattern was unusable. That looks terrible

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