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Without negotiation we would never have MARK DANCED CRAZY!, though.
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Sep 1, 2011 16:02
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I like negotiations  It makes sense too- Demons are motivated by self interest show you are strong enough to get behind and pay them and they have no problem fighting for your cause*. I like the idea of having allies instead of pokemon-like monsters that fight to the death for you for no reason. The first Raidou made no sense beacuse you basically kidnapped them. What preventing them from clawing off your face when you summoned them the next time? *Unless they're dicks who cheat you out of your money 
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Sep 1, 2011 16:10
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Agnostic watermelon posted:
It does make sense, until you actually try it. Then you're like "Hi" and they're like "I'll join you if you give me all your money" and then they leave, and there is literally no way to tell which way the conversation will go. It's a random number generator disguised as text and it's a badly-done mechanic at best. Also these demons aren't your allies, if they were then they'd revive you when you died. They leave you the instant your too weak to continue. They're with you because you are strong (also why you need to be at their level), so proving your strength is a logical choice, not saying "Oh I think your hair looks nice" to a Lillim and hoping she's not on her period that day.
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Sep 1, 2011 16:14
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I don't have a good English language link handy, but the Persona 4 twitter guy is saying that another magazine coming out soon will have more information on the new Persona 4 stuff. I'm betting it's the Dengeki Maoh on September 27th.
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Sep 1, 2011 16:18
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Agnostic watermelon posted:I like negotiations The only flaw with this line of reasoning is when you have to resort to, among other things, dancing and hitting on demons to get them to join you.
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Sep 1, 2011 16:24
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Why bother dancing? Everyone knows that magic tricks is where it's at. All demons go nuts for magic tricks!
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Sep 1, 2011 16:30
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Finally a reason for me to be happy that I finished P4 only once and also without getting all the Social links Maxed.
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Sep 1, 2011 16:32
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Also, even though they're apparently motivated by self-interest, they are perfectly happy with some random human destroying any consciousness and identity they have in order to be thrown into some metaphysical blender with some other jackass to make a brand new dude. Basically no part of any MegaTen game that has a demon negotiation over a demon reward or capture system makes any loving sense whatsoever.
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Sep 1, 2011 16:35
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Demons are pretty laid back, they usually don't give a gently caress.
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Sep 1, 2011 16:35
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Rentrent posted:Also, even though they're apparently motivated by self-interest, they are perfectly happy with some random human destroying any consciousness and identity they have in order to be thrown into some metaphysical blender with some other jackass to make a brand new dude. That's pretty much self interest too since they become a stronger demon.
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Sep 1, 2011 16:40
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Agnostic watermelon posted:That's pretty much self interest too since they become a stronger demon. Really? I just assumed they died.
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Sep 1, 2011 16:52
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HarveyVdarski posted:Really? I just assumed they died. In SMT1 the Chaos Hero fuses himself with a demon and retains his personality (at least as far as I've played that was about where I've gotten to)(spoilered even though it's an old game that most people probably won't play even though they should)
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Sep 1, 2011 16:56
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Policenaut posted:We're probably never going to see another full-scale Megaten game on a console again. I kinda welcome this because I've gotten more play out of my psp/ds this generation than my ps3 but I can easily see how it turns people off. I sometimes want to just play a game on my HD tv so I don't have a humongous expensive set up so this might be part of the reason.
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Sep 1, 2011 16:58
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gamespot posted:Cool story, bro.  This sounds like someone whose opinion I should respect and value. I think demon negotiation is potentially a great mechanic, but it's still too random. I liked Raidou 2 where if a demon just runs off on you during negotiation, it'll probably join you the next time you talk to it. That's definitely a step in the right direction.
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Sep 1, 2011 17:05
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nene. posted:In SMT1 the Chaos Hero fuses himself with a demon and retains his personality (at least as far as I've played that was about where I've gotten to)(spoilered even though it's an old game that most people probably won't play even though they should) Question remains of which demon is the dominant personality, and in any case at least one demon gets shafted. (Unless it's a hive mind thing but then it gets dicey along multiple fusions.)
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Sep 1, 2011 17:48
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Dolphin Fetus posted:I kinda welcome this because I've gotten more play out of my psp/ds this generation than my ps3 but I can easily see how it turns people off. I sometimes want to just play a game on my HD tv so I don't have a humongous expensive set up so this might be part of the reason. Yeah, that's kind of the problem. These games are made by the Japanese but with their "go go" lifestyle of always being on the move, having these devices to play games just makes more sense to them. I mean a lot of their houses are small and the cost for a gaming console plus an HDTV and any required accessories is just so much greater than the cost of a gaming portable, plus they can take it with them or play it at home. It was all so quiet too when it happened, but by the time we all shifted to PS3/360 we in the West hadn't realized this happened so we were asking "Where's all the JRPGs?"
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Sep 1, 2011 17:50
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I actually think that not only are they only made for the Japanese, but a specific subset of Japanese who live in Kanto. I certainly didn't live that kind of lifestyle when I lived way up north. Basically I think their market research is incredibly primitive and involves giving surveys to people who live literally right outside their office, and no one else even in their country, much less any other countries.
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Sep 1, 2011 17:52
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I'm actually enjoying Devil Survivor Overclocked quite a bit, it has the most miserable non-use of the 3D screen I've ever seen... But the game is pretty fun!
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Sep 1, 2011 18:02
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Samurai Sanders posted:I actually think that not only are they only made for the Japanese, but a specific subset of Japanese who live in Kanto. I certainly didn't live that kind of lifestyle when I lived way up north. I guess it depends on exactly where. I lived in Kansai for 3 years and I never met any Japanese person with a PS3 but drat did everyone have a PSP.
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Sep 1, 2011 18:04
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My only thought: Wouldn't a Persona Fighting Game basically be the JoJo's Bizarre Adventure game?
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Sep 1, 2011 18:08
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Pureauthor posted:Question remains of which demon is the dominant personality, and in any case at least one demon gets shafted. One of the characters in Devil Survivor actually speculates about exactly this. I don't think anyone really comes to any conclusions beyond "demons' minds probably don't work the same way as human minds do".
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Sep 1, 2011 18:09
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Speedball posted:My only thought: Wouldn't a Persona Fighting Game basically be the JoJo's Bizarre Adventure game? 
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Sep 1, 2011 18:22
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Endorph posted:P2 isn't much more grindy than P3, and as I recall the PSP remake alleviates some of the grinding anyway. Gonna have to say bullshit here. Unless you're playing on maniac, P3 requires almost no grinding, making the proper persona is more important and the skill card system makes that pretty simple. In P2 you level up sure but you also need cards to fuse better personas, this is something you HAVE to do or get wrecked royally by whatever is ahead, this is further exacerbated by the horrible, stupid, worthless lovely negotiation system. I loving hate the negotiation system, its crap and its pointless, I'm not interested in some dumb mechanic that's so loving random. "Oh hey, gimme some macca and items" "Thanks for the items BUT OMG I GOTTA TAKE A DUMB TOODLES" Over and over and over, hilariously enough the negotation was actually easier in P1 and 2 because they all had a particular pattern, once you figured it out it was simple to get what you needed, didn't make it any less tedious. All I got from that review is what they did with IS was the same thing they did with Persona 1, updated script, added a few things but the game is still the same as it was in 99, it wasn't very good back then and all the years in between just make it seems worse in comparison.
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Sep 1, 2011 20:15
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Persona 2 is fine. The only real negative is the double grinding you have to do where you typically can't negotiate and make contracts with demons when you get to a new area due to low levels. This combines with the incredibly repetitive negotiation system is irritating. Honestly if you know what a boss is weak against in Persona 2 you really don't have to grind that much if you use skill cards effectively when creating personas with appropriate strengths. However the graphics are on par with any Playstation era game, the plot is better than most RPGs and the battle system is fast and requires some pre-thought. The rumor system is a neat idea that mixes game play choices with plot effects. I can see the hate for Persona 1 since in was clunky (the PSP version fixed A LOT of that) and the 3D graphics were repetitive. Persona 2 on the other hand is a good game that has some flaws based on how its a 10 year old game with some outdated mechanics.
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Sep 1, 2011 21:37
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Alteisen posted:Gonna have to say bullshit here. P3 and P4 require tons of grinding. You have to grind out your stats and SLink experience. All those "You spent the evening studying!" and "You and (Character) spent the afternoon talking. You feel like your relationship will improve soon!" messages? That's grinding. (But it's totally cool to prefer one type of grinding to another, so don't sweat it!) Alteisen posted:In P2 you level up sure but you also need cards to fuse better personas, this is something you HAVE to do or get wrecked royally by whatever is ahead, this is further exacerbated by the horrible, stupid, worthless lovely negotiation system. Actually in Innocent Sin you can pretty much just coast by on each characters' unique personas*. You know, the ones you don't need cards for. *At least until the final boss.
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Sep 1, 2011 21:56
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Well, to P3 and P4's credit those grinding stats aren't entirely required to complete the game. Just for the S-Links that you use for boosting and unlocking different Persona which can kinda be construed as being required to complete the game. And those carry over into New Game Plus.
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Sep 1, 2011 22:04
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I always kinda considered the main goal of how it relates to the battle system was for the sweet, sweet experience bonuses.
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Sep 1, 2011 22:14
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I have zero problem with negotiating in Strange Journey - I spend so much time mindlessly grinding in that game that I'm sure to run across several of even the most "rare" demon, and I don't think they ever just take all your poo poo and run in that game. It also helps that the conversations, while repetitive, are often kinda funny. In the earlier Persona games though it can go choke on a bag of dicks.
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Sep 1, 2011 23:24
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TurnipFritter posted:P3 and P4 require tons of grinding. You have to grind out your stats and SLink experience. All those "You spent the evening studying!" and "You and (Character) spent the afternoon talking. You feel like your relationship will improve soon!" messages? That's grinding. No, it's not.
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Sep 2, 2011 00:40
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TurnipFritter posted:P3 and P4 require tons of grinding. You have to grind out your stats and SLink experience. All those "You spent the evening studying!" and "You and (Character) spent the afternoon talking. You feel like your relationship will improve soon!" messages? That's grinding. (But it's totally cool to prefer one type of grinding to another, so don't sweat it!) That is not grinding in the slightest. It's at best a five second message that advances a day of your time and it is part of a normal action you take during a day, not something that slows the pace of the game down in any way. It's a gameplay mechanic where you have to manage the time you spend on certain goals for the greatest effect. Grinding is generally considered as stopping forward advancement in order to grind levels/gold/experience/whatever in order to gain power for an upcoming challenge. Otherwise, grinding would be exactly the same as playing the drat game. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Sep 2, 2011 |
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Sep 2, 2011 01:03
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Policenaut posted:Oh wow, this is a thing. Persona 4: The Ultimate in Mayonaka Arena will be playable at TGS and JAMMA I'll let you guys know how it is. 
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Sep 2, 2011 01:15
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ImpAtom posted:Grinding is generally considered as stopping forward advancement in order to grind levels/gold/experience/whatever in order to gain power for an upcoming challenge. Otherwise, grinding would be exactly the same as playing the drat game. Cool, if that's the case, then Persona 2 doesn't have any grinding at all. 
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Sep 2, 2011 01:40
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TurnipFritter posted:Cool, if that's the case, then Persona 2 doesn't have any grinding at all. What? How do you even make logic of that? Persona 2, at least in theory, has situations where people feel they can't advance the plot without battling generic enemies over and over to collect shinies. That is exactly what they mean by grinding. I love Persona 2 (both parts.). It's my favorite of the series and I never felt the grind was as bad as people make out, but if you have trouble with it, it sure as hell involves grinding to get around it a lot of the time. (Other times you can do cool rumor manipulation or Persona switching, but not always.) ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:45 on Sep 2, 2011 |
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Sep 2, 2011 01:42
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TurnipFritter posted:Cool, if that's the case, then Persona 2 doesn't have any grinding at all. Wow, you are pretty in denial arent you?
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Sep 2, 2011 01:43
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Persona 2 was the only time I decided to use the fast forward function on my emulator.
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Sep 2, 2011 01:44
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ImpAtom posted:What? How do you even make logic of that? Persona 2, at least in theory, has situations where people feel they can't advance the plot without battling generic enemies over and over to collect shinies. That is exactly what they mean by grinding. I guess you could just talk to the enemies from a specific arcana as you encounter them while you're exploring the dungeons. You don't really have to go out of your way to get new cards, really. Edit: Like, are you guys trying to horde cards for a Persona you won't be able to summon for like twenty levels or something? You can just wait until you're fighting enemies that are around that Persona's level and they'll give you way more cards. TurnipFritter fucked around with this message at 01:48 on Sep 2, 2011 |
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Sep 2, 2011 01:46
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TurnipFritter posted:I guess you could just talk to the enemies from a specific arcana as you encounter them while you're exploring the dungeons. You don't really have to go out of your way to get new cards, really. This is what I do but a lot of people have trouble with the game even when doing this. That is where grinding comes in, because if they are still having trouble even after doing that, the solution for them is to punch and/or talk to random encounters until they can get past it.
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Sep 2, 2011 01:49
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ImpAtom posted:This is what I do but a lot of people have trouble with the game even when doing this. That is where grinding comes in, because if they are still having trouble even after doing that, the solution for them is to punch and/or talk to random encounters until they can get past it. Maybe this is just me being crazy here, but how does this not apply to Persona 3 or 4 exactly? The obvious lack of negotiation aside, I don't think someone who's having trouble playing normally managing to beat, say, Shadow Yukiko (P4 early game boss) without having to grind. I wouldn't exactly say 3 is grind-free either what with having an entire extra dungeon devoted solely to making grinding easier.
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Sep 2, 2011 01:54
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Wouldn't the solution be pretty similar if you got stuck in P3/4? I am unwilling to hold people being bad at a game against the game. edit: Yeah, beaten.
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Sep 2, 2011 01:54
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Dragonatrix posted:Maybe this is just me being crazy here, but how does this not apply to Persona 3 or 4 exactly? The obvious lack of negotiation aside, I don't think someone who's having trouble playing normally managing to beat, say, Shadow Yukiko (P4 early game boss) without having to grind. I wouldn't exactly say 3 is grind-free either what with having an entire extra dungeon devoted solely to making grinding easier. I wouldn't say it doesn't, but in general there are mechanics in place to reduce the amount you have to do. Social Links in particular grant so many levels that leaving the dungeon for a few days and returning after you've gained a few social link levels is probably a lot more effective then simply grinding out the levels. Persona 3 and 4 certainly could put you in a situation where you have to grind but it's less likely to be put into a situation where you feel the only option is to grind. The only real point would be the time-limited bosses and even those you can come back to unless you waited until the absolute last minute to fight them. Now, doing some of Elizabeth's sidequests in Persona 3 or whatever? That poo poo is pure grinding of the worst type because all you can do is punch shadows and hope they drop the poo poo you need or grind Tartarus levels hoping a rare Shadow shows up or whatever. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Sep 2, 2011 |
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Sep 2, 2011 01:56
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