notsoape posted:

Has anyone else trained a formal finish? Which style did you pick?

notsoape posted:

I've gotta say, I do always feel a little guilty watching kikopup because 'No!' and 'Ah-ah' are definitely part of the vocabulary I use with my dogs. I don't think I'll ever fade them out entirely, but I'm definitely thinking about ways to communicate more positively more of the time.

Fraction posted:

A jack and mice

ButWhatIf posted:

I definitely think there is merit to be found in using a no-reward marker, so long as it's not being used as a positive punishment so much as a "try again" sort of cue. It's also a good way to interrupt a behavior you want to redirect, imo. It's really kind of at the discretion of the individual trainer, but yeah, I agree with you.

notsoape posted:

I'm sure it's possible to train a dog to be stock steady using praise alone and no 'verbal intimidation', but I don't think I'm that awesome a trainer, unfortunately. When a slip-up would mean a dead bird or bun rather than a gulped hotdog, it's not something I'm prepared to take a chance on.

(I really wish kikopup would post a follow up to this video - I have NO IDEA how she taught it using positive training only!)

ButWhatIf posted:

I definitely think there is merit to be found in using a no-reward marker, so long as it's not being used as a positive punishment so much as a "try again" sort of cue. It's also a good way to interrupt a behavior you want to redirect, imo. It's really kind of at the discretion of the individual trainer, but yeah, I agree with you.

a life less posted:

Garrett posits that a NRM is only necessary if the completion of the task will result in the dog getting reinforcement. Her example is if a dog performs the weave poles incorrectly, but is allowed to finish the row -- the weaves are intrinsically rewarding for a dog who has been trained to enjoy them, so allowing the dog to make a mistake then be rewarded is not ideal.

MrFurious posted:

So you're suggesting that in this instance, as soon as the dog makes the mistake you should interrupt the weave routine?

notsoape posted:

and the 'reprimand' is nothing more than a stern 'Ah-ah' followed by oodles of praise for subsequently making the right decision.

quote:

BBC’s The One Show has outraged dog trainers and lovers alike this week with the introduction of their new segment “Fix My Dog”.

They have hired Jordan Shelley, a Cesar Milan wannabe with no formal qualifications, to host this part of the show. It appears that he has been hired mostly due to his looks, rather than any affinity with canine kind.

In the clip that I saw, he was working with a Jack Russell called Roxie who growled when anyone approached her food bowl. Any good dog behaviourist would tell you that this is probably due to an underlying fear. I expected Jordan to do what all reward based trainers would do; I expected him to put a half full bowl down and gradually get closer and closer, dropping tasty treats into the bowl as he came, rewarding calm behaviour and showing Roxie that people approaching her food bowl is a good thing and nothing to be afraid of. Instead, he allowed Roxie to get anxious and lunge, teeth bared, at his Converse-clad foot. With it, he pushed the little dog away and shouted “BACK!”

Roxie, startled, stopped growling and adopted submissive body postures. She was then invited back to her bowl. A few seconds later, Jordan approached again. Remembering what had happened last time (that’s the scary man who gets between me and my dinner), out came the teeth once more.

This went on for some 45 minutes apparently, with Roxie being invited to eat, and then being pushed around by Jordan’s foot and shouted at when Jordan approached her bowl. He effectively taught her that people approaching her bowl is something to fear, as it means her meal is over. At one point, she backed into her bed, which she had never guarded before, and bared her teeth at Jordan as he towered over her. Oh dear… Eventually, after being “tired down” – his words – she stopped guarding her bowl. Jordan pronounced her “cured”. To me she looked terrified; she had given in to the bully.

You can watch it yourself on iPlayer – it has to be seen to be believed. I was appalled, and I’d love to know how he trains dogs larger than ankle height…

In the same episode Jordan claims that he is a huge fan of Cesar Milan and that he learned about dogs while walking them as a child. A quick Google search of his name reveals nothing (except other articles similar to this one). Who is this man, and what qualifies him to teach the nation how to train their dogs? He says “There are two different schools of dog training thought – dominance theory and reward based. You have to find a balance between the two.”

I saw no balance. I saw no reward. All I saw was a large man pushing a little dog around. He made no attempt to understand why Roxie was doing what she was doing, or to explain it to her owners. Later, his way of stopping her ripping up the post was to forcibly place himself between her and the door and shout at her. He clearly has no idea of modern dog training techniques or dog behaviour, body language or psychology. Anyone can shout at a dog or forcibly move it around, but the media should not be promoting this caveman like style of ‘training’.

Ever the champion of the underdog, Dogs Today magazine have also spoken out against what they saw; you can read their reaction to it here.

I am saddened and disappointed that The One Show has chosen to give this man and his dominating techniques air time, and that they are treating dog problems like a quick fix which can be solved with little work in 4 minutes of air time. For years, dog lovers have been trying to spread the message that dog training takes time and understanding and effort, and this new segment undermines that message. We here at Dogs In The News will be taking time to write a letter of complaint to the BBC and request that our readers do so also. You can find the forms here. Hopefully the BBC will see sense and fire this bully before any dogs are harmed by the use of his techniques.

Papercut posted:

Is there a reason you're not putting the crate in your bedroom? I feel like most dogs, especially rescues, will have a hard time being completely isolated overnight. Our rescue literally runs gleefully to his crate at bedtime, but I couldn't see that happening if we moved the crate to an isolated room.

themindisonfire posted:

Swanson is STILL submissive/excitement peeing. Sometimes it's completely random, my friend lets him out like every three hours, and he's stopped smacking and yelling at him for doing random things. Tonight he was scuttling around upstairs and I literally lifted his lips to make sure I didn't smell anything that could hurt him on his breath, and he peed right on the stairs. He's a year and a half now and potty trained except for the times when he excitement pees. Anyone have any ideas about this?

Also he's started this thing where he barks or runs through all of his tricks to get the treat. It is extremely annoying, he's getting annoyed and we don't know what to do about it.

Fraction posted:

What was or is his body language like when he pees? If he's 'submissive' peeing, you need to take a step back and make every interaction you have with him positive - so he has no reason whatsoever to fear you or your friend. If he's peeing from excitement, you need to find a way to drain some of that energy - doing something like agility or tracking.

Fraction posted:

When he runs through the tricks you've taught him, it's because he doesn't understand what you want and he finds that frustrating (hence the barking). Take a few steps back and make sure he 100% knows his cues in a variety of settings, in isolation, before you start asking him to pick out the behaviour you want from the cue you give.

themindisonfire posted:

He flips over, tummy up. He really shouldn't be scared, no one has yelled at him or punished him for it for a long time. I do have a disappointed tones sometimes though, so maybe he's taking that in the OH poo poo IN TROUBLE PEE! Sometimes he literally has no reason and gets all super submissive for no reason and pees on people's feet. He's weird. He generally only excitement pees when people come home, or he meets new people. I'm going to try to get some boxes from work and teach him amateur nosework though. I think he'll enjoy that, and it will give his little terrier brain a workout.

quote:

I'm not sure it's that he doesn't know the tricks, it's really more of an impatient sort of bark, like he's literally saying HEY THAT IS MINE GIVE NOW. He's learned speak, and he never used to bark like he does now before he learned that command. Would separating him from the situation or putting away the treat until he calms down help you think? I've also not been using the clicker for him much lately... maybe I'll reinstate it because the omgletmerunthrougheverythinguntiltreat started after it was sort of not being used anymore.

themindisonfire posted:

I'm not sure it's that he doesn't know the tricks, it's really more of an impatient sort of bark, like he's literally saying HEY THAT IS MINE GIVE NOW. He's learned speak, and he never used to bark like he does now before he learned that command. Would separating him from the situation or putting away the treat until he calms down help you think? I've also not been using the clicker for him much lately... maybe I'll reinstate it because the omgletmerunthrougheverythinguntiltreat started after it was sort of not being used anymore.

Fraction posted:

It might be that he's very sensitive - terriers can be surprisingly so! My JRT will cringe and cower if I raise my voice (even if it's at the TV or at my other dog), and a harsh word can send her tail and head down immediately. My friend's Cairn rolls on her back and pees when greeting new people, and will pee from excitement when strangers come to the house, but said friend hasn't done anything about it yet. Peeing can become a reinforcing and habitual response - they learn that it eases the pressure (makes you go away), and so even when they no longer have the excited or fearful response they can still do it in slightly arousing or uncomfortable situations.

quote:

"As I said on The One Show, I respect and practice both reward based and dominance techniques and I use a mixture of both, depending upon the specific dog and its problems. Safety comes first in all my training and I would never approve of causing distress to any dog. The family were present for the entire filming and subsequently I have visited them on a couple of occasions and they say they are delighted with the improvement in Roxy's behaviour."

quote:

Dogs Trust, the UK’s largest dog welfare charity is deeply concerned by the training methods used by Jordan Shelley who was featured on The One Show on Friday 16th September. The main issues we have are:

A dog with such aggression and fear issues should never, ever have food taken away by members of the family. There was no regard for the safety of the family - using methods like this will only cause the dog to suppress the behaviour and there is a strong possibility that, when the opportunity arises, he will revert to the aggression.
There is no consideration for the dog's emotional state and the motivation behind the behaviour - until these are addressed then you can never consider the behaviour to be resolved.
Any other pet dog owner attempting these methods will put themselves and their families at risk of serious dog bites.
There was no warning to 'not try this at home.’
We are surprised that The One Show has featured such aggressive training methods as demonstrated by Jordan Shelley and are worried that families will try these methods at home. Jordan Shelley also stated that he ‘agrees with all training methods’ which really does not make sense when there are so many different training methods used throughout the UK.

Dog trainers all over the UK use reward-based methods to train dogs very effectively. Where dogs have behaviours which owners find unacceptable, such as aggression or destruction, qualified and experienced behaviourists achieve long term changes in behaviour through the use of established and validated techniques of behaviour modification without subjecting dogs to training techniques which may cause pain or distress.

We always advise dog owners to carefully consider the help they choose to train their dogs or tackle behavioural problems, in particular to ensure that the trainer does not use any techniques which may put the welfare of the dogs or owners at risk.

Lynn Barber, Head of Canine Behaviour and Training at Dogs Trust

notsoape posted:

Here's the dog "trainer"'s statement


(The filming took place only 6 weeks ago)

And here's Dog's Trust, a leading dog rescue charity

quote:

Safety comes first in all my training and I would never approve of causing distress to any dog.

a life less posted:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: watching good, proper dog training is probably more boring than watching paint dry. You're not likely going to see any good, proper dog training on television.

Just to restate the obvious, he's intensifying the negative emotions in the situation while attempting to shut down the behaviour. I feel that they're setting this dog up to fail in the long term, and the situation is at a very high risk of repeating.

notsoape posted:

Kiri koli posted:

I've only seen a few episodes of Victoria Stilwell's show, but I thought it was pretty good. I also enjoy watching Dogtown, which isn't strictly training, but they do talk a lot about what goes into rehabilitating dogs, even if they could stress the amount of time it really takes more. Psyche likes to watch Dogtown too .

a life less posted:

I've only seen bits of Stilwell's show, but what I've seen I've liked and obviously it has a good reputation around R+ training folks. However, my understanding is that in the most recent season they had to resort to cheap off-topic gags which focused more attention on the attractive tight-clothes wearing host than on actual dog training. I think it was an attempt to improve ratings.

notsoape posted:

Here's a link to the actual clip of Jordan Shelley and the JRT, so you can see just how hosed up his methods were. It's even worse than what the pictures show.

notsoape posted:

Here's a link to the actual clip of Jordan Shelley and the JRT, so you can see just how hosed up his methods were. It's even worse than what the pictures show.

notsoape posted:

The big problem for us in the UK is that Stilwell has left our shores and set up camp in the US. No-one has stepped up to fill her shoes except this guy - oh, and Cesar Milan is coming to the UK to do a series later next year

Here's a link to the actual clip of Jordan Shelley and the JRT, so you can see just how hosed up his methods were. It's even worse than what the pictures show.

Rixatrix posted:

With regards to how exciting watching good training is, I guess it depends on how much of a crazy dog person you are. I'll watch a proficient trainer shape behaviors for hours and I've audited more than my share of training seminars. You can learn more from just observing than actually participating with your dog. (I'll admit though that getting Joe Average to watch real dog training might not be simple, because you do have to know what you're looking at and be motivated to learn from it.)

quote:

It doesn't suprise me that the BBC One Show execs are standing by their trainer Jordan Shelley who showed such irresponsible and dangerous techniques in order to curb a dog's foodbowl aggression. It shows that there is still so much ignorance when it comes to truly understanding and teaching dogs. The BBC pulled out of Crufts for breeding cruelty but yet they permit these inhumane techniques on their channel. Please to the general public - do not watch this man because you try his techniques at home, you WILL get bitten. Disgraceful!

notsoape posted:

The big problem for us in the UK is that Stilwell has left our shores and set up camp in the US. No-one has stepped up to fill her shoes except this guy - oh, and Cesar Milan is coming to the UK to do a series later next year

Here's a link to the actual clip of Jordan Shelley and the JRT, so you can see just how hosed up his methods were. It's even worse than what the pictures show.

Victoria Stilwell posted:

"I'm worried now that the family is in danger of getting bitten by their JR after the abusive techniques that were used by Jordan shelley on the BBC's One Show and if so the JR will get put down. If anyone knows who the family is, please tell them that I will come over to England free of charge and teach them how to stop their dog guarding in a humane and beautifully effective way. No point in just complaining, I want to save this dog and this family. Please send this to everyone you know."