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mutata posted:There's a lot of player hating goin on in the industry. I think that's dangerous. Now, now. My comments are about the acknowledgement that my obsession for feedback is entirely irrational and unhealthy. I am fairly confident that the rest of the discussion is framed in that same context. If you spend a week making a dinner and are told that it tastes bad once you finally serve it, you WILL feel like crap. It has nothing to do with who made the comment, or whether the food is objectively bad or not. The problem is that focusing for so long on a single product puts you in a touchy frame of mind feedback-wise. At the same time, you end up craving that feedback. This is a bit of an emotional minefield that many people in the industry struggle with. THAT is the subject being discussed.
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Sep 13, 2011 07:33
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It's normal to want to know how people feel about a thing you made. It's normal to want that feedback to be positive. When that feedback is "THIS SUCKS I HATE YOU YOU SUCK I'M GOING TO KILL YOUR DOG AND YOUR KIDS AND BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE THE ART DIRECTION IN THIS GAME", it's normal to feel bad.
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Sep 13, 2011 07:37
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Yeah there can be people who express their hatred of your game super harshly, but there will always be someone who liked it, and reading some forum posts praising something you've worked on never gets old.
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Sep 13, 2011 07:40
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Aramis posted:The problem is that focusing for so long on a single product puts you in a touchy frame of mind feedback-wise. At the same time, you end up craving that feedback. This is a bit of an emotional minefield that many people in the industry struggle with. This is one of the things that I think we got right back in the 'good old days' where development was a lot more open (Talking to the fans about potential new features, showing early screenshots, inviting people to play early builds). Now everything is about secrecy and NDAs. I've actually been barred from talking about some titles for months after they've been announced. People work better if they're given positive feedback for what they do; keeping it in the dark until it's finished and then having everyone involved be absolutely be swaped with feedback on something they can't change is just poor community integration.
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Sep 13, 2011 07:44
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AntiPseudonym posted:This is one of the things that I think we got right back in the 'good old days' where development was a lot more open (Talking to the fans about potential new features, showing early screenshots, inviting people to play early builds). Now everything is about secrecy and NDAs. I've actually been barred from talking about some titles for months after they've been announced. NDA status: not broken (barely). Phew.
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Sep 13, 2011 07:59
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It has happened maybe a dozen times or so that fans actually directly write us an email and tell us they enjoyed our games, and that always feels nice. Anyway I hope I'm not coming across as whining. The fan reaction to Syndicate is not at all surprising or unwarranted to be honest.
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Sep 13, 2011 08:14
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Black Eagle posted:In California, ... I mostly lurk but I had to post after reading this. I really respect you and Diplomaticus (because he agreed I'm mentioning him) as posters, but I have to take exception to this. Are you speaking only about blazers, suits, and the like? If so, then that's fine and I agree. If you're saying that T-shirts have to cost more than 40.00, then that's pretty ridiculous. I can buy a t shirt from one of two different Armani lines for less than that. With jeans, there's a huge amount of price fluctuation to be taken into account. Levi's will come out at 78.00 and then later can be found at certain places for around 50% of that as new colors are pushed out. If you're referring to jeans, too, does that somehow mean that they become terrible because they can be found for 37.00? The only time you have to consistently spend that much money is if you're going for a designer brand, which is often not of any better quality than something like Levi's. Or if you're going for selvedge denim, which does not at all need to constitute all of your jeans wardrobe. I totally endorse buying clothes that fit well, from a reputable brand, but arbitrary, set price markers are not at all a real indicator of quality.
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Sep 13, 2011 08:18
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Honestly, it seems that the people who bitch the most aren't actually the people who HATE the game. If someone hates a game, they tend to just quit and stop caring (unless of course that game is popular, in which case they have to tell EVERYONE how wrong they are to enjoy it). There's this sort of middle ground of players where they actually do like the game, but they find it incredibly frustrating and vent that frustration on the developers. MMO forums are the best examples of this kind of behaviour. People proclaim to absolutely loathe the game... except you need an active subscription to post on the forums, so why are they paying for a game they claim to hate so much?  I think it does spring from a legitimate desire to make the game better, it's just that their frustration makes it so they can't figure out how to express that desire in any form other than an angry rant. That and often the things they believe will make the game "better" actually means "make it better for my particular playstyle, at the expense of everyone else". So of course these players get even more frustrated at the perception that their ideas are being "ignored" by the devs, even though those ideas would be terrible for the game. I think it can be helpful to have developers read feedback on their game - but never, ever respond. Not even to the good comments - because that will just make the bad ones feel as if they're being deliberately shunned. Or better yet, hire a community manager to do all that stuff for you and let THEM get all the death threats. I mean, as a player I do appreciate when devs make posts on their game forums, but in the long run I think it's probably better for the game, and for the developers' mental health, to refrain from commenting on player posts. A developer blog can be a nice middle ground - where a dev can maintain a community presence by posting information about the game, but not get sucked into flame wars with particularly angry players.
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Sep 13, 2011 08:22
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M4rk posted:You can mix the two extremes and have it work out. At the moment I'm part of a two different handpicked groups of individuals testing two MMOs by two companies. My feedback, and the feedback of my fellows, is collected and then real, noticeable, concrete changes are made based on our suggestions. Meanwhile, people are wondering when the games will come out. Hopefully by the time the public is playing the game, all the major kinks will have been worked out and all they'll have to whine about is leveling curves. Unfortunately that doesn't really happen for single-player games though, which is what I work with.  For a quick anecdote of how destructive this whole secrecy bullshit is, though, one of the companies I worked for previously was working on a big-name title, and one of my friends in the office who was new to the games industry posted 'I'm really enjoying working on [TITLE X]!'. It was a rookie mistake, but after about 10 minutes before he realised what he'd done and deleted it. Unfortunately, word gets around Twitter quickly. The licence holders found out, and ended up getting huffy and pulled not only the project that we were working on, but all other contracts we had with them (Although there were other reasons, this was the straw that broke the camels back) which cost our company a LOT. Everyone lost on due to a single accidental sentence on twitter, purely because some companies are so terrified of revealing their secrets in anything other than a strictly controlled manner. That level of secrecy doesn't serve anyone at all. AntiPseudonym fucked around with this message at 08:28 on Sep 13, 2011 |
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Sep 13, 2011 08:23
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Balatron posted:I'm a level builder, mostly on the singleplayer side. Bash Ironfist posted:Here's the thing I've noticed. If a group is happy with a game, they tend to stay quiet and play the hell out of that game. If some group of nerd-spergers dislikes a game, they will yell as loud as they can on the internet about it. I'm going to go against the typical nature of internet posting and say that I enjoyed the poo poo out of black ops and the singleplayer was easily the most memorable of all the cod games. I say this because I know Treyarch shares a bit of an unenviable position among the eyes of the internet seeing as they are part of the evil corporate activision cod-spewing machine despite those games being a lot of fun and very good at what they do. Also I distinctly remember someone in the MW3 thread saying they were a lead Treyarch dev, I sort of took them seriously until it turned out to be them joking, but mainly because I know there are definitely a couple of you guys floating around the forums. 
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Sep 13, 2011 08:25
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The Cheshire Cat posted:I think part of the trouble is that while nobody intentionally sets out to make a bad game (duh), sometimes the various forces involved in bringing a large project like that together are pulling in different directions and the end result is terrible not because anyone involved was incompetent, but because everyone involved had incompatible ideas on what makes for a good game. From a consumer point of view (as my only connection to games development is providing cash prizes to the SA GameDev competitions), it's hard not to become bitter when you've been anticipating a game for months, the publisher and developers has been hyping it up at every turn and promising the world (the Molyneux syndrome), you put down your hard earned €49.99 (68$)... and the game is, even if not completely terrible, a long way from what you expect from games you usually pay that much for. Repeat this a number of times and you kind of get annoyed with it and feel like venting (ask me about my undying hatred of Master of Orion 3). Of course, there's a difference between legitimate annoyance and sending developers death threats because the edge of the two-handed sword clips through the cloak when the character is running, but I think that as a developer you should expect people to point out when your game has shortcomings, even if you worked hard on it. This goes double for when it's something that performs below what you usually see in other games in the same price range. All that said, I'm well aware that ~85% of all negative feedback is petty whining about stuff that isn't really important, or blown way out of proportions. I'm just saying that just because you worked hard on it, maybe even poured your entire heart and soul in it, doesn't mean that it shows very well when I'm playing the finished product, at least not if it doesn't match up to the bar that a lot of games in the same price range have set. Don't take this as a defense of all game criticism though, I want to bash my head against a wall too when reading the Steam forums and various other sites that gamers frequent 
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Sep 13, 2011 08:36
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AntiPseudonym posted:That level of secrecy doesn't serve anyone except the marketers, if you ask me. Your marketing department has a schedule they're working to as well, you know - they aren't just throwing info around at random dates. Announcement dates, info releases, etc. are all scheduled to have the maximum effect of hyping people up for launch day without causing fatigue. Do you think, for example, that GTA IV would have had the same hype effect announced by a random dev on twitter, as it did announced by Peter Moore showing off his tattoo at Microsoft's E3 press event? If you tell everyone everything all the time they just get bored of hearing about your game in the two years it takes you to make it. edit: Oh, you've edited your post.
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Sep 13, 2011 08:39
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czg posted:It has happened maybe a dozen times or so that fans actually directly write us an email and tell us they enjoyed our games, and that always feels nice. So wait is it possible to send an email to most game developers and have it actually reach the devs? I have played a few games where I genuinely would have liked to say "thanks for making a cool thing!" to the developers but I figured they'd never see it if I emailed them.
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Sep 13, 2011 09:04
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FreakyZoid posted:And the marketers are serving the publishers, who are footing the bill for you at the end of the day. You're right of course, which is one of the reasons I edited my post. I'll be the first to admit I'm probably pretty irrational over the whole thing, I've just really grown to hate the marketing culture over the past years due to bad experiences with publishers treating us with contempt while treating marketing as the golden child. I mean, there's something wrong when the marketing budget dwarfs the development budget. Yet if the game sells poorly, it's always our fault.  (Although the current place I work at is great, we're given a lot of leeway. Although that probably has to do with us being owned by a publisher)
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Sep 13, 2011 09:10
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Kimchi posted:I mostly lurk but I had to post after reading this. I really respect you and Diplomaticus (because he agreed I'm mentioning him) as posters, but I have to take exception to this. Are you speaking only about blazers, suits, and the like? If so, then that's fine and I agree.
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Sep 13, 2011 09:12
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Black Eagle posted:I was referring to clothes for (important) meetings, negotiations, interviews, mixers, and other affairs that call for more sophistication than t-shirts and jeans. Also, I'd avoid designer brands, if possible. The best quality clothes for these purposes are brand-less. Talk to a tailor or, ideally, a Hong Kong tailor. Here are the prices you can expect from most Hong Kong tailors. Ah, okay, cool. No problem agreeing with that.
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Sep 13, 2011 09:14
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The Cheshire Cat posted:Honestly, it seems that the people who bitch the most aren't actually the people who HATE the game. I've run the stats on this and also seen them mentioned by other MMO companies - if a player posts on an MMO forum "I quit" or such, there is a 90% or greater chance they will be playing the next month. This is in some cases lower churn than the population who are apparently contentedly playing and not posting.
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Sep 13, 2011 10:01
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AntiPseudonym posted:You're right of course, which is one of the reasons I edited my post. As someone who is unfortunately more often than not considered to be working in marketing I have to agree with you though.
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Sep 13, 2011 10:15
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AntiPseudonym posted:Define 'player hating'. Hating the player, not the game. Obviously.
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Sep 13, 2011 12:25
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The Cheshire Cat posted:Honestly, it seems that the people who bitch the most aren't actually the people who HATE the game. If someone hates a game, they tend to just quit and stop caring (unless of course that game is popular, in which case they have to tell EVERYONE how wrong they are to enjoy it). There's this sort of middle ground of players where they actually do like the game, but they find it incredibly frustrating and vent that frustration on the developers. I guess this is what was swirling around in my head when I mentioned player haters. From what I've read online and seen in the couple studios I've worked in, it tends to be easy to react to feedback online in a defensive way when, in my opinion, that isn't the healthiest way. Yes, some people have no idea what they are talking about, but it's our job to drill deeper and analyze or interview to find what's actually causing the strife and criticism. The attitude of "Man! Our players are SO STUPID!" is damaging to all parties involved. I'm an artist, so it's hard for me to separate what I produce from who I am, but that's unfortunately a necessary goal of mine. I've studied under a bunch of incredible artists who worked on films the likes of Quest for Camelot, Space Jam, 8 Crazy Nights, and the cavalcade of Disney straight-to-DVD sequels, and they have all illustrated that a little perspective goes a long way towards being satisfied with one's work despite critical or popular criticism and drilling down to the real reasons why a thing goes south. Keeping that perspective and using it as a drive to discover what the real issues are (because what the players are saying out loud is rarely the actual issue) helps much more than calling the players idiots and saying "They didn't get it, not my problem". Fine artists seem to be the only creators who can get away with that kind of attitude. Again, not really saying that anyone here is guilty of this, just sharing my limited experiences. https://instagram.com/mutatedjellyfish/
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Sep 13, 2011 15:09
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mutata posted:I guess this is what was swirling around in my head when I mentioned player haters. From what I've read online and seen in the couple studios I've worked in, it tends to be easy to react to feedback online in a defensive way when, in my opinion, that isn't the healthiest way. Yes, some people have no idea what they are talking about, but it's our job to drill deeper and analyze or interview to find what's actually causing the strife and criticism. The attitude of "Man! Our players are SO STUPID!" is damaging to all parties involved. I definitely agree with you on this. Hearing more touchy workmates rant about how various players didn't get their deep mechanics or understand their intricately woven storyline is just painful at times, especially when what they take away from the experience is "People are dumb, maybe we should make dumber games". As far as I can tell it's just the shock of going from very little criticism to a huge tidal wave of it in under a day, which sorta comes back to what I was talking about before with keeping projects locked up with no outsider input being harmful for morale.
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Sep 13, 2011 15:37
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Kid games do indeed get the best fan mail. We got this email from a couple of parents, where they described how LEGO Universe had inspired their youngish boy into really coming out of his shell and finding something he really enjoyed - which was computers in general, as it turned out. We apparently single-handedly helped him turn around and start thinking about careers, and now he's considering colleges and a CS degree, whereas before his parents couldn't get him to focus on that at all. Very cool  AntiPseudonym posted:You're right of course, which is one of the reasons I edited my post. There's a lot of vitriol toward publishers and marketers that I really feel is completely misplaced. Yes, publishers have make shrewd calls now and then - because the ridiculous budget they've risked on the title in question simply can not withstand much risk. Similarly, marketers MUST be given a great deal of money, because that is the one place into which investment can be consistently guaranteed to affect sales on release day. This is how it will always be with those risking large sums of money, and there is no way around it. It isn't even wrong, they're making the right calls on average. The only way to fix the problem is to reduce operating budgets to where the per-title risk isn't so absurd (as it already is with mobile - there, the publishing relationship can be much less poisonous), or to self-fund - and accept that when you make the call to spend more time to improve quality, you are in fact taking a major risk, mitigated only by how good you know you are. ... the other side of the coin is that people need to not forget that this is a business. The investors driving publishers do not (usually) care about games, they care about money. That is why they give the developers the money - to make more money. So yes, if that developer goes to the bargaining table without any head for business, they will possibly be eaten alive. This is not unusual, or cruel, or evil, this is just - business. Focus less on how wrong it is (because it's been that way for millennium), and more on arming yourself to negotiate well and come through with a good deal.
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Sep 13, 2011 15:52
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Fergus Mac Roich posted:So wait is it possible to send an email to most game developers and have it actually reach the devs? I have played a few games where I genuinely would have liked to say "thanks for making a cool thing!" to the developers but I figured they'd never see it if I emailed them. It's a nice feeling.And yeah, nth-ing the "secrecy is strange at times" thing. We're not allowed to mention what we're working on, despite it being commonly known and having been acknowledged in public media by higher-ups, basically because none of those higher-ups have actually given an official "okay, you guys can talk about this now". Oh well. 
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Sep 13, 2011 16:06
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We got a letter from a kid in New York (we're in Scotland) on yellow paper written in pencil saying how much he loved Minecraft and how he played it all the time and how he wanted to build a big castle in the side of a mountain with secret passages and towers and a moat and a drawbridge and how he'd really really like to help us test the 360 version of the game...
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Sep 13, 2011 16:14
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Fergus Mac Roich posted:So wait is it possible to send an email to most game developers and have it actually reach the devs? I have played a few games where I genuinely would have liked to say "thanks for making a cool thing!" to the developers but I figured they'd never see it if I emailed them. The best piece of fan mail we ever received was 2 A4 pages left at reception of some kids game idea. It's exactly how you'd imagine a game design from a 10 year old to be (mostly drawings of 2D levels in felt pen), but it was so endearing and the "Please make this game I think it would be really cool and people would buy it" tagline was awesome So yeah, send fan mail. I mean, we know we're amazing, gods amongst men really, but it doesn't hurt to be told that every now and again.
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Sep 13, 2011 17:02
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Only positive correspondence I received was from an old lady in the US who loved the rest of my game but couldn't figure out how to play one of the minigames. I tried to help her with it but it's a fairly complex game to describe in text and she couldn't grasp it and offered to pay for an international phone call so we could fix it, but I had to decline. Sorry, lady The weirdest thing was that I didn't even realise the game had come out yet. There's not exactly a fanfare when a budget logic puzzles game is released in a different continent. Only other stuff I ever get is bug reports from users which are mostly just matter of fact and very understanding - very different to forum posts. Also, got the first "professional" review of Skillz through, 9/10, but it totally reads like marketing spiel so I question it's legitimacy
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Sep 13, 2011 17:36
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Our internet went out in the office. It took a total of 15 minutes for photoshops of various people to start going around. Then I put together a coffee table and a sofa. Video games. 
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Sep 13, 2011 18:02
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Regarding comments from the public on your game: it helps to have a good bullshit filter (in addition to your thick skin, which is just as essential) to weed out the most idiotic statements that you tend to get. I've worked on Crysis for consoles since February or so and I was pretty excited to see what people thought. Even when I was madly F5ing sites for comments when the trailer came out on Friday, you can bet I ignored all the dumb comparisons between the game running on the 360 and running a top-range PC running a tweaked and modified game.
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Sep 13, 2011 18:14
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Bash Ironfist posted:Hey, Treyarch buddy! Nope, came in for the QA tester position. There's a multiplayer test lead position too, but I don't think they're considering me for that I might have to apply for the Test Lead position there. Would you happen to have a link?
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Sep 13, 2011 18:18
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I find oddly enough that Mac and Linux gamers are much more understanding and less entitlement than Windows gamers. Not only do they have nicer things to say about a game but they'll be willing to pay more for it, as the Humble Bundle shows. I think this is a function of having less games and therefore being less spoiled. This is one of many reasons that no indie author should be without a Mac and Linux port of their game. Anyway people will complain about the game, and you can either ignore them or do your best to address their concerns next time around. Many times those same people end up buying the game anyway. If they don't then who cares about them? They're not your customer. Listen to the people who liked your game, not the vocal minority that doesn't.
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Sep 13, 2011 18:31
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The last fan mail I remember is some guy emailing us saying he was really high and it was just a confusing mess of words, but he kept saying he really liked the game.
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Sep 13, 2011 18:33
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AntiPseudonym posted:Unfortunately that doesn't really happen for single-player games though, which is what I work with. I was fired from _____ for posting information on __________.com about ____'s Collector's Edition. Information which was already available on GameStop's website (which is where I originally found the information, then visited ______'s press FTP for the box art, which was not in an embargoed folder). ______ didn't want that, though, and _____ was looking for a way to stop paying me and use free volunteer moderator labor instead. So ______ threatened pulling their planned advertising campaign from _____ and I got the boot. Secrecy hurts everyone, including the game's community. More openness and correspondence with developers themselves normally makes communities better places. People tend to behave better when they know they're being watched and responded to by someone with authority. Community managers can only do this so much before they're taken for granted. Random devs popping into a conversation have a lot more weight. M4rk fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Sep 14, 2011 |
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Sep 13, 2011 18:39
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Do you anti-secrecy folks not pay attention to the fact that announcements are planned events and almost always correspond with events, and the belief is that undermining the announcement plan weakens the impact? Or is your position rather than that is a bad idea?
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Sep 13, 2011 19:37
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Most places I've worked, the rule has been that we could talk about anything that had already been officially announced or seen in a trailer. And yeah, I understand marketing's need to time these peaks and valleys, but if you're pulling stuff that's already been posted somewhere official like GameStop's webpage and get in trouble for it, that's fairly full of bull.
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Sep 13, 2011 19:53
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Just means you need better drafted NDAs and a marketing disclosure policy that allows for public information to be released without undermining the actual proprietary information you are trying to keep secret. As well good relationships with the press (not just I SAEND A PRES RALEESS), but actually knowing who to go to for exclusives, how to time things, what should be withheld and what not. (Incidentally things my firm offers.) 99.999% of the tiny fraction of lawyers who work in the industry were never journos and never on the receiving end of marketing. A bigger, but still by far a minority percentage of biz dev are the same. Any first year law student can draft a draconian NDA. The value is in knowing what needs to be protected and WHY you need the NDA, and having a media policy that links in with it, e.g. maybe you need to tactically embargo stuff rather than NDA. There are a few lawyers I know that are good enough to do that. One is an SVP at one of the biggest publishers in the world. One is an indie guy with 20+ years experience in the industry and is probably the first attorney who ever did "games law". One is my age and experience, but worked as a studio head for a china MMO company, so she gets the production side. One writes for a major game news site. And me. That's about it. This is one area that the industry desperately needs improvement on, and won't see any for at least another several years.
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Sep 13, 2011 19:58
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Sigma-X posted:Do you anti-secrecy folks not pay attention to the fact that announcements are planned events and almost always correspond with events, and the belief is that undermining the announcement plan weakens the impact? Or is your position rather than that is a bad idea?  Somewhere around "rather than that" I got lost though. Can you rephrase? M4rk fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Sep 14, 2011 |
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Sep 13, 2011 20:13
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Aliginge posted:I'm going to go against the typical nature of internet posting and say that I enjoyed the poo poo out of black ops and the singleplayer was easily the most memorable of all the cod games. Thanks for the compliment! Yeah, we get used to hearing a lot more negative reactions out there than good ones, but really I'd rather hear trash talking than no talking at all. And in the end, the game selling as well as it has is all the gratitude we need from the fans. And I didn't see that guy in the MW3 thread but I'm pretty sure I'm the only Treyarch guy on SA.
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Sep 13, 2011 20:43
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M4rk posted:In my particular case the information was already available, so there was no announcement or event to make or perform as GameStop had already made/performed it for the company. Whether that was intentional and GameStop had some kind of timed exclusive (why would they, they're not a news outlet) or unintentional and N_____ didn't want the information to be up on GameStop's online store either (which GameStop never removed or edited), it didn't matter. The information was already in the wild, there was no taking it back. Are you unaware of the planning and importance placed internally on controlling announcements to make powerful 'announcement launches' or do you merely find that to be unimportant/ineffective? I don't know poo poo about what happened with your firing, so I'm not judging whether it was fair or not (obviously the way you've framed it, it sounds mostly like horseshit), but in general I feel that it is OK and fine to control announcements and PR, given how vital it is to launches and the building of excitement and buzz.
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Sep 13, 2011 20:48
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Sigma-X posted:Are you unaware of the planning and importance placed internally on controlling announcements to make powerful 'announcement launches' or do you merely find that to be unimportant/ineffective? However, not every little thing needs to be under NDA and not every little feature deserves embargo or special attention. Secrecy is useful for "big" things, mostly things that involve dates (release dates, beta dates, etc.). I don't believe game features themselves warrant secrecy. Those are the things that need to be known far in advance of any launch, so that players have the tools and time to decide if they really do want to preorder a game.
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Sep 13, 2011 21:21
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I'm gonna ask this question again as the answer to the last time it was asked is buried under a huge pile of fashion. I'm an artist who isn't satisfied in his personal work with just stopping at static assets, and I'd like to get into making little games and dabbling with functionality and such on my own time. As such, I need to start learning to program. As far as past experience, I've done the usual html/css junk which is hardly considered any kind of programming at this point, as well as extremely limited actionscript (like making a thing move, linking buttons, looping animations, that kind of stuff). In other words, not much experience at all. I'm wondering if there's a programming book or website that people would recommend to someone like me? I'm not the type of artist who's adverse to learning to code, and back when I used to do math, I wasn't bad at it, though I'm planning on starting up on Khan Academy to start to relearn all the stuff I've forgotten. I would like to eventually use UDK and/or Unity to start with and go from there, but I'm also looking for more general programming knowledge as well (in otherwords, I'm more concerned with learning the concepts as opposed to specializing in a specific engine over another).
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Sep 13, 2011 22:59
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