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movax posted:Also, obligatory Hey, I'd live in Pellaeon's Empire over the Galactic Republic any day... You are right, though. While C'Boath was freakin' insane, Thrawn was definitely more than a stock villain. Well written, well characterized, and well motivated. Also, my favorite part about him? He knew when to fold 'em.
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Sep 13, 2011 17:28
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My biggest problem with the treatment of Jedi is basically like Kyp Durron kills millions but it is okay because he was "just influenced by the dark side" at the time, as if we would allow a drunk driver who drove through several playgrounds killing kids to come back into society with not even a slap on the wrist because he was "just influenced by the alcohol." Any time someone says "enough of the bullshit" like Daala who starts throwing the bastards in carbonite they are thrown out of office (even though presumably they were legally elected) and replaced with another jedi figurehead. They are religious nutjobs who are more interested in propping up themselves than maintaining order and civility for the actual inhabitants of the galaxy. At least the empire kept the peace.
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Sep 13, 2011 17:46
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Funny that, a non-elected illegitimate unreconstructed war criminal chief of state decides to hunt down Jedi, and it's the Jedi's fault.LLJKSiLk posted:They are ... who are more interested in propping up themselves than maintaining order and civility for the actual inhabitants of the galaxy. Sounds like the Empire to me! VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Sep 13, 2011 |
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Sep 13, 2011 17:54
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CobiWann posted:Hey, I'd live in Pellaeon's Empire over the Galactic Republic any day... Thrawn did some stereotypically Vader-esque things, like having Rukh execute the first guy who failed to tractor in Luke. But he was also characterized as caring more about bringing back order and stability (like, really wanting this instead of Palpatine lip servicE) versus being cartoonishly evil dark Jedi. There's also the fun what-if scenario of what if Thrawn was around when the loving Vong showed up? He totally knew about them, which reminds me that the writers did a terrific job of taking Zahn's setup of the Unknown Regions and running that poo poo straight into the ground. His genius would have come in handy with dealing with the Vong. The appearance of random pirate-like Imperials in Black Fleet whilst Lando is trapped on the Vagabond was kind of cool too, life in the Deep Core must have really sucked.
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Sep 13, 2011 18:32
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movax posted:Thrawn did some stereotypically Vader-esque things, like having Rukh execute the first guy who failed to tractor in Luke. But he was also characterized as caring more about bringing back order and stability (like, really wanting this instead of Palpatine lip servicE) versus being cartoonishly evil dark Jedi. The WEG Dark Empire Sourcebook that came out in the early 90s had a bit where it talked about the resurrected Emperor knowing about Thrawn's return and basically hoarding all the 'loyal' Imperial forces in the Deep Core, so Thrawn would be starved of the full Imperial war machine and would inevitably be defeated, bringing down with him all the Imperial officers that Palpatine wasn't sure of their absolute personal loyalty. Even though it smacks slightly of an attempt to have DE one-up the Thrawn books, I still liked the basic concept that Palpatine was able to manipulate his greatest potential rival for control of the Imperial Remnant to his advantage. And before it got retconned that Thrawn's main goal in conquering the galaxy was to unify it against the Vong* I always thought a neat explanation would be that he was aware of the clone Palpatine (as Isard knew about him, but also worked with Thrawn at this point) and so Thrawn's campaign was as much about ultimately ensuring that a unified galaxy could defeat the clone Emperor, ensuring that the Imperial system could remain without Palpatine's insanity and cruelty. *It's interesting to note that for all Zahn has said that he dislikes the NJO, he's actually the one who came up with this retcon, and did it in multiple books of his, too
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Sep 13, 2011 18:47
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Chairman Capone posted:The WEG Dark Empire Sourcebook that came out in the early 90s had a bit where it talked about the resurrected Emperor knowing about Thrawn's return and basically hoarding all the 'loyal' Imperial forces in the Deep Core, so Thrawn would be starved of the full Imperial war machine and would inevitably be defeated, bringing down with him all the Imperial officers that Palpatine wasn't sure of their absolute personal loyalty. Even though it smacks slightly of an attempt to have DE one-up the Thrawn books, I still liked the basic concept that Palpatine was able to manipulate his greatest potential rival for control of the Imperial Remnant to his advantage. I always got the impression that Thrawn was loyal to what the empire had represented (and by extension to the emperor) - a bit like how Pellaeon's point of view is described. I think if he'd known the clone emperor was around he'd have worked with him rather than trying to usurp him. He never struck me as wanting to be in charge, it was all about stability and order and uniting the galaxy, regardless of whether or not it wanted to be united. And while Zahn was definitely setting up SOME sort of external threat, I'm guessing he hadn't planned on it being super duper force-invisible Jedi hating mega bastards from beyond the galaxy, because his antagonists have never really just been about one upping whatever came before. I mean, look at the Hand of Thrawn books - there's no overpowered opponent with a lightsaber for a cock, or a weapon that causes entire solar systems to crash into neighbouring ones, and yet they're a drat sight more compelling than any of the "superweapon of the week" books that were so prevalent during the Bantam era.
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Sep 13, 2011 21:06
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movax posted:Also interesting is that he wasn't allowed to use 'Sith' in the book at all, he had to settle for 'Dark Jedi'. Actually, he wanted to call the Noghri Sith. Remember, Sith was not established as a title for what Vader and Palpatine were at that point. Vader was a dark Lord of the Sith, but the word was never mentioned in the original trilogy, and never applied to Palpatine in the scripts (as far as I know). Zahn's original idea was that Vader modeled his mask on the physical appearance of the Noghri (or Sith, if he'd been allowed to use it). I've just started re-reading Heir with the annotations now, and it's interesting, but a little sad how Zahn keeps acknowledging the prequels and commenting on how they make things in the novel appear in a new light or whatever. Obviously, he's not going to say "screw the prequels, I could've done it way better", and for all I know he enjoyed them (although it's hard to imagine, since he knows how to craft a real narrative, and should know tripe when he sees it).
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Sep 13, 2011 22:04
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^^^^ A few months after ROTS came out, I went to a convention where Zahn, Allston, and Stackpole were on a panel about the prequels, with one of the Star Wars RPG writers. They were deferential to Lucas, but made it clear they didn't like the prequels. I remember Zahn especially mentioned how hiding Luke on Vader's home planet made no sense. I think Zahn also mentioned that he thought the only well-done scene from the prequels was Vader's mask being lowered over his face from ROTS. Fil5000 posted:I always got the impression that Thrawn was loyal to what the empire had represented (and by extension to the emperor) - a bit like how Pellaeon's point of view is described. I think if he'd known the clone emperor was around he'd have worked with him rather than trying to usurp him. He never struck me as wanting to be in charge, it was all about stability and order and uniting the galaxy, regardless of whether or not it wanted to be united. Thrawn's definitely loyal to the best aspects of what the Empire represents - it clearly matched his personality and the best parts of the Chiss government. And I think he was loyal to the Emperor while Palpatine was still alive, and wouldn't try to overthrow him pre-Endor. But at the same time, Thrawn in the trilogy (and Pellaeon in later books) have big criticisms of Palpatine and Vader's style of leading through terror. I think it would b fair to say that Thrawn (and Pellaeon) both thought that kind of leadership was counter-productive ultimately, that it bred corruption and was wasteful and not the best way to motivate followers, and that stuff like human nationalism that Palpatine tolerated and helped build the Empire around also weakened it. I think that if Thrawn came back from the Unknown Regions and saw that the Emperor was dead and the Empire could be rebuilt, saving its best parts and removing Palpatine's leadership style, he would take it; and once on that course, if he learned that Palpatine was still alive, if isolated at the time (not to mention crazier than ever), Thrawn would have felt the most logical course of action for saving the Empire would have been to ensure Palpatine could never take full control again. Fil5000 posted:And while Zahn was definitely setting up SOME sort of external threat, I'm guessing he hadn't planned on it being super duper force-invisible Jedi hating mega bastards from beyond the galaxy, because his antagonists have never really just been about one upping whatever came before. I mean, look at the Hand of Thrawn books - there's no overpowered opponent with a lightsaber for a cock, or a weapon that causes entire solar systems to crash into neighbouring ones, and yet they're a drat sight more compelling than any of the "superweapon of the week" books that were so prevalent during the Bantam era. Well, I think it's obvious that Zahn had no idea precisely what he was foreshadowing with his early comments in the Thrawn duology. Although this was the same time that Lucasbooks and Dark Horse were outlining the original "invasion" story that would become the NJO, so who knows, I guess. But once the Vong were there, Zahn definitely ran with integrating them into Thrawn's backstory. I thought that was one of the more interesting aspects of Outbound Flight, personally - it's actually a fairly big re-appraisal of Thrawn's backstory, as it implies rather than being exiled from the Chiss before being recruited by the Empire, his "exile" was a ploy engineered either by himself or with the Chiss leadership to give them leverage in the Empire.
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Sep 13, 2011 22:30
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draize_train posted:Actually, he wanted to call the Noghri Sith. Remember, Sith was not established as a title for what Vader and Palpatine were at that point. Vader was a dark Lord of the Sith, but the word was never mentioned in the original trilogy, and never applied to Palpatine in the scripts (as far as I know). Zahn's original idea was that Vader modeled his mask on the physical appearance of the Noghri (or Sith, if he'd been allowed to use it). Really? That's...wow, that's great. I didn't know that. Is that from the anniversary edition? If it is, I may need to pick that up.
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Sep 13, 2011 22:32
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thrawn527 posted:Really? That's...wow, that's great. I didn't know that. Is that from the anniversary edition? If it is, I may need to pick that up. Yeah, it is. I've only gotten a couple of chapters in, but already there's a bunch of interesting tidbits. I would highly recommend it. Also, I may have exaggerated the stuff about the prequels, it's not like he's praising them or anything, just showing some respect for Lucas. I guess I'm just such a sperg about Star Wars that I get sore just seeing the prequels mentioned!
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Sep 13, 2011 22:42
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Chairman Capone posted:I think Zahn also mentioned that he thought the only well-done scene from the prequels was Vader's mask being lowered over his face from ROTS. I'd like to have seen him wheezing loudly and coughing loudly on Mustafar to make it clear that he has tremendous trouble breathing, then merely wheezing during rehab, then finally silent once the mask came down and was sealed. Basically, echo the wheezing he does after Palpatine presumably fries the electronics in his suit in ROTJ.
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Sep 14, 2011 03:30
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It's really funny how much better the RoTS novel is over the movie even though they follow the same story.
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Sep 14, 2011 03:31
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Cheesus posted:One of my nitpicks with ROTS (besides omitting the Yoda/Qui-Gon scene) is that we never see why Vader needs the mask to breath. He wheezes a little on Mustfar but that seemed more like the exertion of him climbing up the hill with his one remaining arm. And while we see him being wheeled into the rehab facility with a an oxygen mask over his mouth, that seemed just seemed like standard operation procedure for anyone regardless of the injury, just like our world. Ole palp was a dick and wanted to do everything he could to dehumanize him basically. I think that would be a little hard to show with out just out right saying it. Hell a couple of months in a Bacta tank and he would of be fine. Well minus the limbs.
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Sep 14, 2011 04:37
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draize_train posted:Actually, he wanted to call the Noghri Sith. Remember, Sith was not established as a title for what Vader and Palpatine were at that point. Vader was a dark Lord of the Sith, but the word was never mentioned in the original trilogy, and never applied to Palpatine in the scripts (as far as I know). Zahn's original idea was that Vader modeled his mask on the physical appearance of the Noghri (or Sith, if he'd been allowed to use it). Hah, I forgot about that annotation.  The one where Zahn is like "oh George, you tricked us with the real Clone Wars" made me laugh though. As a kid, I remember having a sweet mental image of the Clone Wars in my head...and then loving Episode II.
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Sep 14, 2011 04:43
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There is an in-universe explanation for Palpy keeping Vader somewhat crippled like he did. Palpatine would have clearly felt threatened by Vader's potential power. Lucas himself said that Vader, if he was able to reach his potential without injury, would have been twice as powerful as Palps. Due to the injury he merely become around 80% as powerful. So, in this way, Palpatine didn't have to worry as much about Vader smothering him in his sleep.
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Sep 14, 2011 05:54
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Plus it looks badass as all hell.
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Sep 14, 2011 06:02
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:There is an in-universe explanation for Palpy keeping Vader somewhat crippled like he did. Palpatine would have clearly felt threatened by Vader's potential power. Lucas himself said that Vader, if he was able to reach his potential without injury, would have been twice as powerful as Palps. Due to the injury he merely become around 80% as powerful. So, in this way, Palpatine didn't have to worry as much about Vader smothering him in his sleep. Of course this is completely dumb, though.
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Sep 14, 2011 07:01
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Jerk McJerkface posted:The Thrawn trilogy is pretty good, but it planted the seeds for a lot of the EU garbage. Like having characters that were clones (Luuuuuuuke), characters that were retroactively inserted into movie events and Jedi overload (Mara), items that were earth stuff but not quite (hot caff). Same age as me. I remember being a huge star Wars nut around 1991 after I got the trilogy on VHS. There was a period one summer where me and my cousin watched a star wars movie almost every day and then the whole trilogy on fridays. This was probably more due to the fact that we didn't have much else to watch in those days, but we definitely did love the movies. We could re-enact all three movies by memory. So you could imagine how delighted I was to see Heir to the Empire on the bookstore shelf. I ate that poo poo up rather quickly and started reading the novelizations of the movies and any other Star Wars books I could get my hands on (there wasn't much then). Contrary to popular belief, Heir to the Empire wasn't the first EU novel, I believe Splinter of the Mind's Eye was first, and I read that one right after reading Heir to the Empire. I really liked the books, though I never went much further into the EU. I remember playing the gently caress out of X-Wing and Tie Fighter on PC and reading a few comics like the Tales of the Jedi series and Dark Force Rising, but they started coming out with too many books as the 90s progressed and I couldn't keep up with them so I eventually just gave up. It's funny how that happens. It seems like the market is so saturated with entertainment now we can practically amuse ourselves to death, but back when I was a kid, I just had to rely on re-watching the same 6 or 7 VHS tapes, playing the same 6 or 7 games, Listening to the same 6 or 7 cassette tapes and CDs, and reading the same 6 or 7 books again and again. It may seem like wasted time, but I think kids appreciated what they had a lot more. Do you think kids these days appreciate the 200 gigs of mp3s they have to the same level we appreciated the 10 or so CDs we had growing up? Anyway, back on topic, I remember the Thrawn trilogy very fondly. They were definitely the best of the EU stories I read and they captured the spirit of the trilogy excellently, at least to my 12 year old mind. I had always hoped they'd make them into movies. At the time, the actors were still all young enough to pull it off. Now it's pretty much a pipe dream, but it'd still be cool to see an animated version of this series, a la The Clone Wars. Gianthogweed fucked around with this message at 08:55 on Sep 14, 2011 |
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Sep 14, 2011 08:31
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arioch posted:Of course this is completely dumb, though. I dunno I think it works. The Master vs. Apprentice Dynamic is basically THE driving force of the Sith philosophy. The Apprentice is waiting for the time to kill the Master, and the Master knows it'll happen inevitably (If his apprentice doesnt kill him he picked a pretty lovely successor), but tries to keep themselves alive at the same time. Even crippled Vader is still a drat powerful enforcer. Well unless Imperial Bureaucrats say mean things to him I guess.
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Sep 14, 2011 14:18
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I always felt like Palps screwed himself once he ended up with Vader. Basically there were no more force users (except in the EU) so training someone to replace Vader before he died of old age would have been difficult. Rewatched ESB last night also... why are they so caught up in the idea of Luke becoming a Jedi being able to destroy them? They killed like a thousand Jedi already. What was one more (besides what happened)?
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Sep 14, 2011 14:51
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Because he was Anakin's son, and so had the potential to be an incredibly powerful Jedi. Also, destiny.
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Sep 14, 2011 14:53
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LLJKSiLk posted:I always felt like Palps screwed himself once he ended up with Vader. Basically there were no more force users (except in the EU) so training someone to replace Vader before he died of old age would have been difficult. They killed all those Jedi because they were a threat. And they did it mainly through trickery and power in numbers. The Clones attacking them out of no where and all. Palpatine did kill those Jedi with Mace by himself, but they really seemed to suck at being Jedi. And Mace drat near killed Palpatine. Yoda escaped. Obi-Wan really hosed Anakin up. Basically, they have every reason to think Jedi could kill them. I guess Anakin killed all those Jedi at the Temple as well, but he had a massive army with him, and knew where they were. A hidden Jedi, who could strike at any time, was a serious threat.
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Sep 14, 2011 15:33
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RagnarokAngel posted:I dunno I think it works. The Master vs. Apprentice Dynamic is basically THE driving force of the Sith philosophy. The Apprentice is waiting for the time to kill the Master, and the Master knows it'll happen inevitably (If his apprentice doesnt kill him he picked a pretty lovely successor), but tries to keep themselves alive at the same time. No, the dumb part is Vader being handicapped.
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Sep 14, 2011 15:52
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arioch posted:No, the dumb part is Vader being handicapped. Oh the idea that being part machine makes your "power level" go down? I'll buy that.
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Sep 14, 2011 18:00
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Why didn't vader get a cyborg body more like general grevious instead of the slow stiff one seen in the movies?
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Sep 14, 2011 18:32
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Because technology moves backwards in Star Wars for some reason.
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Sep 14, 2011 18:44
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Palpatine like any good Sith struggles for power and sheperds its future. All Sith since Bane obviously know the major weakness to the "rule of two" is that if you're so caught up in attaining/keeping the power, it dies with you as do the Sith. At the same time, it's not in the Sith interest to just roll over and hand over your power to your apprentice. Although Palpatine crows to Yoda about Anakin's power, somewhat like a proud father, I can't see him just handing over the reigns. Had Vader won the fight with Obi-Wan, I'm sure Palpatine would eventually have had a truly monsterous "final test" in mind to push Vader fully into the dark side. I'm thinking something along the lines of killing the twins and Padme with his bare hands before Vader's own eyes. There's no way he'd survive Vader's rage and it would be the perfect ending for him and the perfect beginning for "Master" Vader. I can see him originally planning to use Luke as part of another "monsterous" hypotethical. When Vader tries to spare him with the "powerful ally" line, you can almost see the wheels turning, realizing just how weak Vader is (his love for his son) but also that if Luke is nearly as strong as Vader, he'd be the superior apprentice. Hence, at the end of ROTJ as far as Palpatine is concerned, he wins whether Luke lives or dies. Except he underestimated Vader's loyalty for him against Vader's love for Luke.
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Sep 14, 2011 18:53
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thrawn527 posted:.And Mace drat near killed Palpatine. Assuming, of course, that he was actually fighting at full power and not simply throwing the fight so as to set everything up to draw Anakin over. 
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Sep 14, 2011 19:11
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Pretty in-depth review of the Blu Rays. http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Star-Wars-Blu-ray/14903/#Review I'm starting to get really excited despite the NOOOOO scene and the blinking Ewoks 
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Sep 14, 2011 20:46
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I'm holding off in hopes they end up doing something like this somewhere in the near future... http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Episode-Versions-Widescreen/dp/B000FQJAJG/ref=sr_1_1?s=movies-tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1316031310&sr=1-1
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Sep 14, 2011 21:15
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arioch posted:No, the dumb part is Vader being handicapped. Well I agree he's not really handicapped, but he's also not the same man any more. Being betrayed by Padme and Obi-Wan, in his mind at least, was probably worse than his wounds. I'd say Vader lost the drive and ambition to usurp Palps. He was broken into being the apprentice/enforcer/stooge, until he found Luke.
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Sep 14, 2011 21:45
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angrylinuxgeek posted:Pretty in-depth review of the Blu Rays. http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Star-Wars-Blu-ray/14903/#Review How are the blinking Ewoks a bad thing?
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Sep 14, 2011 21:54
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I remember the emperor saying at one point that Vaders problem was a mental thing and that if he ever got past it, he'd have control of all his power.
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Sep 14, 2011 22:24
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VaultAggie posted:I remember the emperor saying at one point that Vaders problem was a mental thing and that if he ever got past it, he'd have control of all his power. Now I'm picturing Vader looking in a mirror and repeating "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and doggone it, people fear me!"
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Sep 14, 2011 22:25
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Diabolik900 posted:How are the blinking Ewoks a bad thing? As someone who grew up watching the movies on tape, and saw the Ewoks movies before the original trilogy, it's just a little  and  I guess.
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Sep 14, 2011 22:29
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Watch any regular movie. How often do you notice the actors blinking? Never. But when the Ewoks blink, it provokes a  reaction because they had to make it noticeable otherwise why bother... and in doing so, you pick up on it as being out of place and somehow wrong. As a result, lifeless plastic eyes are actually less creepy than ones that are behaving almost but not quite like real ones.
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Sep 14, 2011 22:57
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VaultAggie posted:I remember the emperor saying at one point that Vaders problem was a mental thing and that if he ever got past it, he'd have control of all his power. See, that's hokey, but it's a Star Wars kind of hokey. Not some bullshit Lucas decided to feed spergelords that goes against Yoda's "judge me by my size, do you?" philosophy.
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Sep 15, 2011 02:02
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Is anyone keeping up with FoTJ? What's going on with force Cthullu?
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Sep 15, 2011 03:34
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Is anyone keeping up with FoTJ? What's going on with force Cthullu?
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Sep 15, 2011 03:40
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Payndz posted:Watch any regular movie. How often do you notice the actors blinking? Never. The blinking really doesn't bother me (based on what I saw of it on youtube). It's a minor enhancement that doesn't really change the story or characterization. The "Noooooo!" though is just as bad as Greedo shooting Han. It was bad enough when he did it in episode 3, but Lucas just had to insert it into ROTJ. Just like he inserted Jar Jar saying "wesa free", and replaced Lakti Nek with the awful Jedi Rocks, but worse because it actually makes Darth Vader's character arc more goofy.
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Sep 15, 2011 04:01
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