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NovemberMike posted:I remember reading an article by a semi-legit self-defense guy (ie. not somebody who teaches rape classes, somebody who spent a lot of time teaching prison guards) and he said that all of the knife defense stuff that's taught is worthless. IIRC his point was that knife defense generally teaches you to fight a defensive knife style that was developed for use with a knife against another weapon. People who are actually attacking an unarmed person with a knife tend to just do this weird aggressive attack. That's certainly how I imagine pretty much 100% of knife fight where one guy is armed and the other isn't looks like. I highly doubt you can defend against that effectively too.
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Sep 16, 2011 20:23
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NovemberMike posted:I remember reading an article by a semi-legit self-defense guy (ie. not somebody who teaches rape classes, somebody who spent a lot of time teaching prison guards) and he said that all of the knife defense stuff that's taught is worthless. IIRC his point was that knife defense generally teaches you to fight a defensive knife style that was developed for use with a knife against another weapon. People who are actually attacking an unarmed person with a knife tend to just do this weird aggressive attack. It's actually really amazing the ways a real life violent encounter differs from one that's controlled. The knife is an obvious example. One of our instructors is the captain of the local SWAT team and he has spent some time going over security footage of what kinds of untrained attacks you see on the street. As he slows the footage down, what you see is the aggressor who is under a lot of stress and attacking will not send straight punches down the middle. The attacker will usually throw wild haymaker attacks. They are terrible and untrained, but he emphasized that if you are not prepared and you take a clean hit from one, it's absolutely devastating. The most surprising thing though was that the attacker will usually not look at their target, they instinctively want to protect their face and as the attack swings wildly toward the target they turn their head away. The good news is, I've never seen a martial art that doesn't train you to defend against these attacks from very early on. It was one of the few bright spots in Aikido.
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Sep 16, 2011 20:26
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NovemberMike posted:
You know how people have reoccurring stress nightmares, usually right before a big event or test or something? Mine is getting shanked like this after walking out of a 7-11. It's loving terrifying.
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Sep 16, 2011 20:47
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Back in the days, I practiced tough guy karate. Lots of sparring, kata and solo forms while standing outside in the snow in the middle of the winter. That sort of tough guy training. Just to build your bad rear end karate attitude, Our instructor insisted that all Black Belts use a live blade in training and tests. Not live sparring with a live blade, but karate kind of pair training. The attacker makes a thrust towards the defender's stomach with a knife and the defender moves out of the away of the attack, blocks and disarms the attacker. And yes. People got cut in that type of training. One guy went to hospital with a knife stuck in his stomach.
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Sep 16, 2011 21:04
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KingColliwog posted:That's certainly how I imagine pretty much 100% of knife fight where one guy is armed and the other isn't looks like. I highly doubt you can defend against that effectively too. The article I'm talking about had a video where he did that kind of attack against a person who had been doing Escrima for ~15-20 years and had a lot of training in fighting unarmed against an armed attacker and the defense did pretty much nothing. Martial Arts combat is so much about respect. You are dangerous, but so is the other guy and you don't want him to hurt you. It's why a match between two top level bjj guys (for example) will usually be somewhat calm, each one is being defensive because they respect their opponent's ability to take advantage of an opening. Knife vs unarmed lacks that dynamic so much of the way fighting is taught goes out the window.
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Sep 16, 2011 22:20
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quote:Congrats to all the Krav Maga Black Belt candidates for finishing the test: 6 people, 2 hospital visits, 40+ stitches, 1 torn hamstring, multiple broken ribs, 1 injured spleen, one blown ear drum,and 3 bouts of uncontrolled vomiting. [Austin Instructor] received the blown ear drum. Pyle posted:And yes. People got cut in that type of training. One guy went to hospital with a knife stuck in his stomach. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I hope they all died.
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Sep 16, 2011 22:39
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niethan posted:That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I hope they all died. I would say Michelle Bachmann's more terrible quotes are stupider, but those do seem like fairly masochistic training practices.
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Sep 16, 2011 22:59
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- Yeah I'm a krav maga black belt - What's that like? - Sorry, you'll have to speak into my other ear, I said I'm a krav maga black belt
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Sep 16, 2011 23:05
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niethan posted:That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I hope they all died. The worst I've ever seen was I had a karate instructor who had you do finger tip strikes into buckets filled with different things. You start with sand, then rocks then glass (as you build up the callouses (read: scars) on your finger tips). His reasoning? "Someone told me once that's how they do it in Japan!" As I have yet to personally witness any live blade play, this reigns the stupidest thing I've personally witnessed.
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Sep 16, 2011 23:14
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Winkle-Daddy posted:The worst I've ever seen was I had a karate instructor who had you do finger tip strikes into buckets filled with different things. You start with sand, then rocks then glass (as you build up the callouses (read: scars) on your finger tips). His reasoning? "Someone told me once that's how they do it in Japan!" I'm pretty sure real knives are still more retarded.
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Sep 17, 2011 00:53
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Is there a sort of bearhug that you could do to wrap up the knife attacker's arms up over his head? Like a standing arm triangle, but with both arms in, somehow. Outside of that, maybe the best defense would be to fully commit to grabbing the knife arm and trying to headbutt their face off.
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Sep 17, 2011 01:46
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If I couldn't run I would just have to dedicate everything in my power to disabling that arm or getting the knife away. I like that video NovemberMike posted, if someone is really wanting to gently caress your world up and they have a knife, they probably are going to go all primal and strike like that. This site has some things to think about when it comes to knives.. http://mainemartialarts.com/self-defense/why-a-knife-is-more-dangerous-than-a-gun/ Then again, according to this guy.. http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=32183 I can't find the last site I wanted to share, but they did a study with something like 50 police officers and had them try to draw their gun on an attacker with a knife at something like 20 ft away...1 of the 50 trained police officers was able to get off a shot at the attacker before, the rest got slashed up. Figuratively, of course, it was a mock attack. But those are sad odds, especially considering they were facing the attacker and knew what was coming and what they had to do. Although I have a feeling most of you are familiar with this... e: If you want to have your day ruined, you can watch a guy killing and maiming a bunch of police officers with a knife in Nicaragua here:  http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshh44oh9wTL1t11XJKD I really don't recommend watching it. Omglosser fucked around with this message at 02:11 on Sep 17, 2011 |
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Sep 17, 2011 02:03
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Omglosser posted:I can't find the last site I wanted to share, but they did a study with something like 50 police officers and had them try to draw their gun on an attacker with a knife at something like 20 ft away...1 of the 50 trained police officers was able to get off a shot at the attacker before, the rest got slashed up. Figuratively, of course, it was a mock attack. But those are sad odds, especially considering they were facing the attacker and knew what was coming and what they had to do. Yeah, I think that following that "study" they now consider a guy with a knife as a "lethal threat" that warrants shooting him in the face as soon as he is like 30 (really not sure of the number, but it's pretty far away) away from the cops. KingColliwog fucked around with this message at 04:21 on Sep 17, 2011 |
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Sep 17, 2011 02:19
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Omglosser posted:There's no way they go live blade at 100% effort. Someone will ALWAYS get cut. Always. I think it depends on what people consider to be 100% effort. He may have meant, 100% concentration and power, in which case it is possible. However to drill it safely would involve really sticking to the drill(in terms of the attacker), and not having a follow up, and reducing speed. I did this once when I still did Aikido. Very basic technique from a very basic attack. (A relatively slow stab to the chest, like a karate punch. Not a really effective way to attack. It would be dumb to think of it as training in a realistic way.) You don't train like that to 'train for real' you train like that to get a taste for the difference in 'attitude' that you don't get from a mock knife. Or maybe to get a nice healthy dose of fear. If you want to train for real, throw on a white shirt, get marker, put on some protective gear and go at it. I know of defensive tactics groups that regularly train with their carry pistols, albeit unloaded and checked by everyone in the room. (So perhaps that is not the best comparison. In their case they can actually train against a real weapon without it discharging, due to their precautionary measures.) The seriousness of getting muzzle swept by your own or someone else's glock, is worlds beyond getting muzzle swept by some blue fake floppy rubber glock. Even if you are well disciplined and treat a fake glock like a real glock, it is still different. It is very hard to 'fake'(in the sense of intentionally reproducing it) a natural gut destroying response like fear. kimbo305 posted:Is there a sort of bearhug that you could do to wrap up the knife attacker's arms up over his head? Like a standing arm triangle, but with both arms in, somehow. Outside of that, maybe the best defense would be to fully commit to grabbing the knife arm and trying to headbutt their face off. Senor P. fucked around with this message at 04:47 on Sep 17, 2011 |
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Sep 17, 2011 04:03
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For the last robbery around here that got into the news the weapon was bear spray. What martial art is best for protecting me against bear spray. Edit: Bear spray is what pepper spray is called in Canada since pepper spray is illegal.
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Sep 17, 2011 04:16
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Senor P. posted:Only if someone does something stupid like a downward stab (typical in hollywood movies.)
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Sep 17, 2011 04:23
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KingColliwog posted:Yeah, I think that following that "study" they now consider a guy with a knife as a "lethal threat" that warrants shooting him in the face as soon as he is like 30 (really not sure of the number, but it's pretty far away) away from the cops. Right making stuff like this totally cool.
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Sep 17, 2011 04:31
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Office Sheep posted:For the last robbery around here that got into the news the weapon was bear spray. What martial art is best for protecting me against bear spray. As I discovered recently, so is bear spray. Apparently you're good to go if you're using it against bears, but the moment that you use it against a human: (From here: http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/mms-smm/expl-expl/cart-cart-eng.htm) quote:3.1 Products Not Authorized in Canada
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Sep 17, 2011 04:43
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Omglosser posted:Right making stuff like this totally cool. Yeah, something like this happened in montreal not too long ago, that's the only reason I know of this "knife is lethal threat from X distance" Office Sheep posted:For the last robbery around here that got into the news the weapon was bear spray. What martial art is best for protecting me against bear spray. Not being white will help a lot. I think Natives and Indians are often semi-immune to it. Having pale hair/skin will make it suck a whole lot more from what I've heard. So "changingrace-do" would probably be great. KingColliwog fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Sep 17, 2011 |
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Sep 17, 2011 04:46
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Omglosser posted:Right making stuff like this totally cool. I think police should have a duty to retreat in situations like that, where an officer has a duty to maintain at least a walking pace from a subject with a knife until he's out of the threat range. There's still a legitimate issue though with knives being legitimately dangerous.
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Sep 17, 2011 04:55
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The 21 feet thing is called the Tueller Drill. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill A stabber can cover 21 feet in 1.5 seconds give or take. If you have a holstered gun and cannot draw aim and fire effectively in 1.5 seconds (which also includes reaction time and recognition of the threat) you will be stabbed. So a knife weilder is very dangerous even at those distances. Yuns fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Sep 17, 2011 |
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Sep 17, 2011 04:56
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Ligur, I'm watching some savate and it seems the kicks connect with the foot and often the tip of the foot. When you started did your ankles hurt like hell or do you strap it up with poo poo loads of tape? Or do the special savate boots fit really tight and stop your ankle from getting hurt?
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Sep 17, 2011 05:26
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KingColliwog posted:Not being white will help a lot. I'll always be a white belt in not being white.
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Sep 17, 2011 05:28
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Office Sheep posted:I'll always be a white belt in not being white. Then you have changerace-do, runaway-do and dodgethespray-do. It also might be worth trying to get peper sprayed often until you develop a tolerance-do
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Sep 17, 2011 05:32
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Nierbo posted:Ligur, I'm watching some savate and it seems the kicks connect with the foot and often the tip of the foot. When you started did your ankles hurt like hell or do you strap it up with poo poo loads of tape? Or do the special savate boots fit really tight and stop your ankle from getting hurt? Hitting with the instep isn't that different from other MAs that do it. If you land with the toe, it's gonna pointed to the target, and in those situations, the shoe is reinforced just for toe-kicking. They're high top enough to support the ankle, too, I'm sure. Hilariously named site: http://www.whywenothithard.com/2008/01/savate-shoes.html
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Sep 17, 2011 05:36
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NovemberMike posted:I think police should have a duty to retreat in situations like that, where an officer has a duty to maintain at least a walking pace from a subject with a knife until he's out of the threat range. There's still a legitimate issue though with knives being legitimately dangerous. If someone is hypothetically posing an immediate threat to other citizens, they(the police) are supposed to engage them. They are not permitted to retreat in that situation. Unless engaging them is going to result in further casualties (like a hostage situation) That case in particular is really a poor example to reference. There are too many questions. (Was the knife open or closed? How far away was the guy? The significance of the shooting being ruled unjustified?) http://www.komonews.com/news/local/108548839.html I think a much better example (of what you're trying to describe) would be the case where the police shot a person with some mental disease who had a knife. Who the police had driven into one of those chain linked dog fences and closed the gate. Had cooler minds prevailed, everyone would have gotten out a winner. Or maybe the highlander incident, also in Seattle, where things did go right and everyone was able to go home. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtRgweQxXi8 Senor P. fucked around with this message at 06:10 on Sep 17, 2011 |
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Sep 17, 2011 05:50
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Senor P. posted:Sorry I'm not getting you. You're saying police should retreat since the guy has a knife? What about the woman who is literally 10 feet away? If the officer feels unsafe but the person with the knife hasn't attacked, then the officer should maintain distance and keep his gun out and ready. If other people are in the area he should direct them away. Most knife attackers are not going to attack so there's no use in immediately killing them.
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Sep 17, 2011 06:22
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kimbo305 posted:Hitting with the instep isn't that different from other MAs that do it. If you land with the toe, it's gonna pointed to the target, and in those situations, the shoe is reinforced just for toe-kicking. They're high top enough to support the ankle, too, I'm sure. Ah sweet, they're like old school converse. Reinforced toe too.
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Sep 17, 2011 07:11
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Nierbo posted:Ligur, I'm watching some savate and it seems the kicks connect with the foot and often the tip of the foot. When you started did your ankles hurt like hell or do you strap it up with poo poo loads of tape? Or do the special savate boots fit really tight and stop your ankle from getting hurt? Well I- kimbo305 posted:Hitting with the instep isn't that different from other MAs that do it. If you land with the toe, it's gonna pointed to the target, and in those situations, the shoe is reinforced just for toe-kicking. They're high top enough to support the ankle, too, I'm sure. Never mind, what he said. I've never hurt my feet kicking at something or someone, and worrying about ankles has less to do with landing a kick than with supporting your body while you spin about like a drunken sailor on uneven ground. All the shoes really are high top in build. I'm wielding these at the moment when kicking:  Reinforces your ankles, instep, toes and is basically foot armour. You're immune to damage of the feet. Ok not quite immune, the St. Petersburg full contact winner from last year broke my toes - by blocking my kick which he fooled me into with a kick of his own. Also whenever anyone makes a face when you try and teach to simply touch your sparring partner (that's what the site's name "why we not hit hard" might imply from a savateur perspective) you can always pose this question: if you can accurately and quickly land a controlled and soft strike on your opponent with this shoe, what happens when you do the same, but aim two or three inches further? edit: drat, I've been to that site before but didn't see these posts about Savate vs MMA in training or why Savate makes simple sparring so loving difficult until now. You guys know how "Krav Maga" can be almost anything, and the level and techniques depend on where you happen to live at the moment, more than anything else? One of the things I like about in Savate is that people train more or less the same everywhere. If someone has, say, the "red glove" and he's been training in Austria on Belgium or Mexico, you can start training with him in an instant and he'll understand what's up and why in a jiffy. For example the extremely annoying sparring system that is explained in the second link is more or less what I had people do yesterday. A) must attack with two hand and two foot strikes, and B) must respond with the same (at any moment he chooses) but if a kick is the last strike, it must be a chasse lateral (a kick that either stops someone coming at you, or pushes him further if used as an attack). Oh, and you can't move back to evade the strikes... block, weave, side movement, but no going back. Now why the gently caress would you do that? It's horrible! Sparring with additional rules?! Why can't I counter with whatever I see fit? Well first off you are forced to counter immediately and not given a choice as you can't run away, second, when combining hands and feet you absolutely must control the distance (and this while not moving back, it really is insidious) and angles, third, you will learn to use all that stuff that is completely out of your comfort zone. Ligur fucked around with this message at 10:00 on Sep 17, 2011 |
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Sep 17, 2011 09:26
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KingColliwog posted:Not being white will help a lot. I think Natives and Indians are often semi-immune to it. Having pale hair/skin will make it suck a whole lot more from what I've heard. So "changingrace-do" would probably be great. What? Since when was this myth started? Pepper spray is not some wonder weapon which affects whites and leaves dark skinned people untouched. Pepper spray is not a magic weapon at all. If you are white and you get sprayed, just turn your head. This guy knows how avoid pepper spray: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyyw8s7UyRU Also, throw mushrooms at police.
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Sep 17, 2011 10:16
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Pyle posted:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyyw8s7UyRU I'm laughing in tears here, and not because of residual pepper spray either. The cops are like "hmm... this guy might know what he's actually doing, oh poo poo... now he broke a broom to use as eskrima sticks." I live a few blocks away from where that happened.
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Sep 17, 2011 10:30
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I don't get why they didn't just rush the guy before or while they were spraying.
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Sep 17, 2011 10:39
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They would have been prosecuted for assault and battery.
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Sep 17, 2011 10:55
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loving europe, am I right?
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Sep 17, 2011 11:31
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Pyle posted:What? Since when was this myth started? Pepper spray is not some wonder weapon which affects whites and leaves dark skinned people untouched. Pepper spray is not a magic weapon at all. If you are white and you get sprayed, just turn your head. This guy knows how avoid pepper spray: Darker skinned people seem to be affected a lot less is all I was saying. At least according to people I know who joined the police (they get sprayed in the face close to the end of their studies and 3 separate guys told me that all the blond guys were loving dying while most dark haired were feeling it a lot less and that Indians and Amerindians didn't seem to give a poo poo, no idea about black guys). This is not scientific research or anything, but I thought it was true since that's quite a lot of people getting pepper sprayed and not just anecdotal evidence from a guy I would have seen getting sprayed in the face during a protest or something. This guy is not affected a whole lot and turning his head is not the only reason he's not getting any poo poo from the spray. A lot of people would be completely incapacitated from that. KingColliwog fucked around with this message at 12:40 on Sep 17, 2011 |
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Sep 17, 2011 12:28
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kimbo305 posted:Is there a sort of bearhug that you could do to wrap up the knife attacker's arms up over his head? Like a standing arm triangle, but with both arms in, somehow. Outside of that, maybe the best defense would be to fully commit to grabbing the knife arm and trying to headbutt their face off. From the little I've done against daggers in HEMA your best defense is distance. Don't let them get close and keep your body off their center line. Always move to the side, never directly towards or away. In a realistic self-defense scenario, as soon as you have a chance to run you take it. Consider learning and practicing some parkour-style vaults (or go the whole hog and learn how to run up walls and all that other cool poo poo) - the ability to put a railing or a car between you and someone else without breaking stride is immensely useful in any situation where you need to escape. If you can't run (likely you're with your family/friends and don't want them to get hurt by just running off on them) your best bet is still distance and staying off their centerline. If they move to close you take them on your terms by moving diagonally forwards and towards their weapon side as fast as you can (this is really counterintuitive and terrifying but you're not going to get control of the weapon arm otherwise), then getting control of their weapon arm as best you can. If at this point you're miraculously not bleeding out on the ground you choke them/break their arm/throw them really hard at the ground/scream that you'll kill them if they don't drop the knife/whatever works to get them to drop the knife and/or stop being a threat. At that point your job is basically done and you restrain them and call the police and get someone to put some compression on any wounds you've got until the ambulance and cops arrive. e: you also really need to move fast. That video of the aggressive attack is very true to life, if you're not ready to move fast you're dead, if you don't get control of their knife arm as fast as you can you're dead, if you keep your body on their center line they'll just keep stabbing through any defense you put up and you'll be dead. Keep enough distance to be able to react and stay off that goddamn center line because it is the death zone and you will die. Makrond fucked around with this message at 12:34 on Sep 17, 2011 |
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Sep 17, 2011 12:29
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If you wanna see how dead you'd be in a knife fight, take off your shirt, give your friend a magic marker and tell him to assault you.
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Sep 17, 2011 12:38
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niethan posted:loving europe, am I right? Think of the positives, when you live where the police are afraid to stomp you to the curb (or even tackle you, unless you attack first - with weapons) it's unlikely they would limit your other rights either! 
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Sep 17, 2011 12:41
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Ligur posted:Think of the positives, when you live where the police are afraid to stomp you to the curb (or even tackle you, unless you attack first - with weapons) it's unlikely they would limit your other rights either! Or shoot you dead. Scandinavian cops own. I saw nine of them gangbang a drunk icelandic dude at an airport- it was glorious.
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Sep 17, 2011 12:42
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I never got around to actually trying any of it out with practice knives, but the knife defences on Die Less Often (Dog Brothers) looked pretty reasonable. It's still iffy, hence the name of the DVD, but it's the most believable I've seen that I can remember. If anybody has played around with these feel free to contradict me.
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Sep 17, 2011 12:43
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