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JediTalentAgent posted:Vader/Anakin seems so reckless throughout the prequels and so restrained in the OT (for the most part), I wouldn't have even been opposed for him very early on in his life as a Jedi to have let his recklessness and ego cause something terrible to happen to SOMEONE ELSE and we have to experience it with him throughout the trilogy. To stop this from ever happening again, he becomes colder throughout the films, more focused on order, less compassionate. 
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Sep 18, 2011 08:39
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The best thing about the prequel trilogies is the lightsaber fights. Luke and Vader look like kids smacking their toys together by comparison. I keep reimagining the final duel in ROTJ done ROTS style.
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Sep 18, 2011 08:52
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Darth Freddy posted:If goons did this it would turn out to be. I'd watch that. But if goons really wrote the prequels they would just be 6 hours of George Lucas tied up, on the ground, getting kicked in the balls by midgets in Ewok costumes. Don't even try to deny it.
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Sep 18, 2011 08:55
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Wait, I can't remember, was there ever a real Lt Ketch? As in, not a stuffed toy. v v v Right, I could only remember Wedge flying the stuffed one. MIDWIFE CRISIS fucked around with this message at 09:11 on Sep 18, 2011 |
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Sep 18, 2011 09:05
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Admiral Goodenough posted:Wait, I can't remember, was there ever a real Lt Ketch? As in, not a stuffed toy. There WAS an ewok that had his intelligence uprated and was taught to fly, but he wasn't called Kettch. It's at the end of the last Wraith Squadron book.
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Sep 18, 2011 09:06
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Baron Bifford posted:The best thing about the prequel trilogies is the lightsaber fights. Luke and Vader look like kids smacking their toys together by comparison. I keep reimagining the final duel in ROTJ done ROTS style. Yeah that would be great.  
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Sep 18, 2011 09:12
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Baron Bifford posted:The best thing about the prequel trilogies is the lightsaber fights. Luke and Vader look like kids smacking their toys together by comparison. I keep reimagining the final duel in ROTJ done ROTS style. What? you mean the dancing with glowing poles bits? to me those are a great example of a choreographer who has never seen actual fencing or any sort of close range combat. Jumping over your opponent without him cutting off at least three limbs? How does that make any sense? And aside from the technical side of swordfights, there just isn't the same sense of drama in the PT. Obi-Wan vs Vader in ANH isn't just about two dudes trying to cut each other, it's about characters. Same with the rest of the OT fights. In the PT we get fights full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
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Sep 18, 2011 09:16
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I thought the in-universe explanation for why the lightsaber battles were less dynamic is because the in-film lightsaber fighters are: * An old man who sat in the desert jerking off for twenty years and probably drinking space-whiskey * A cyborg who was also probably out of practice against lightsaber-users * Possibly an extremely elderly midget * A teenager who learned from them briefly and informally While in the PT era, it was "thousands of guys who probably hosed around with their lightsabers on Spar Mode for lack of anything else to do with themselves, and an organized curriculum and data repository."
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Sep 18, 2011 09:24
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Except from a technical standpoint, the OT fights make more sense than the PT ones. The PT fights are like shooting over your shoulder without looking and shooting into the air (and so on), while the OT fight are more like "point at the other dude and shoot". Of course the Jedi could have just been a bunch of wankers who practiced all the cool stuff, thinking it would never come to a saberfight anyway... (what with the sith being absent for a long time and all)
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Sep 18, 2011 09:34
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Pops Mgee posted:Yeah that would be great. That fight was a combo of cool parts and lame parts. You have to admit the part on the bridge was neat as they're dodging lava. Then the jumping started. 
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Sep 18, 2011 09:57
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BonHair posted:What? you mean the dancing with glowing poles bits? to me those are a great example of a choreographer who has never seen actual fencing or any sort of close range combat. Jumping over your opponent without him cutting off at least three limbs? How does that make any sense? And aside from the technical side of swordfights, there just isn't the same sense of drama in the PT. Obi-Wan vs Vader in ANH isn't just about two dudes trying to cut each other, it's about characters. Same with the rest of the OT fights. In the PT we get fights full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. Has any professional swordsman ever commented on the Star Wars duels?
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Sep 18, 2011 10:05
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Mister Roboto posted:You have to admit the part on the bridge was neat as they're dodging lava. No, I don't 
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Sep 18, 2011 10:26
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BonHair posted:Except from a technical standpoint, the OT fights make more sense than the PT ones. The PT fights are like shooting over your shoulder without looking and shooting into the air (and so on), while the OT fight are more like "point at the other dude and shoot". Of course the Jedi could have just been a bunch of wankers who practiced all the cool stuff, thinking it would never come to a saberfight anyway... (what with the sith being absent for a long time and all) This theory broke down of course when Jedi fought as a large strike force (Geonosis) or when dealing with Sith (it took two badasses to deal with Count
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Sep 18, 2011 11:04
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Or you could say that when both fighters have precognitive abilities and can see attacks before they happen, it changes how they fight and it won't resemble two normal guys swordfighting.
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Sep 18, 2011 11:33
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Lemmi Caution posted:Oh my, no. If he had written these for a screenwriting class he would have been lucky to get away with a B-, considering how he ignores every basic tenet of how to write dialogue, story, and so on. That's kinda what I said. I was comparing him to fans taking his place, most of whom also aren't going to be winning praise in a screenwriting class. Not that he produced something great, just disagreeing with Shimrra Jamaane's level of hyperbole about it.
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Sep 18, 2011 12:10
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That would make sense, if they weren't pulling counterproductive stunts. Even with precognition, leaving yourself unprotected for several seconds is not a productive tactic. Some of the moves they pull (such as that amazing .gif) are akin to throwing your gun into the air and catching it again. Sure, it looks cool, but honestly why would you do that in a serious fight with an equal opponent? Case in point: When Anakin is pulling his saber back behind his back, that leaves a huge hole in his defense until he can put it back in front of him again. What reason does Obi Wan have for not cutting the twerp (except possibly that he's doing the same retarded thing and thus doesn't have his weapon ready to strike)? And vice-versa.
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Sep 18, 2011 12:12
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Mister Roboto posted:That fight was a combo of cool parts and lame parts. You have to admit the part on the bridge was neat as they're dodging lava. I'll defend the Phantom Menace fight - regardless of the Plunkett-regurgitating defenses for the OT fights - I think the fight in TPM is really exciting. However the ROTS fight did actually bore me. v  v
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Sep 18, 2011 15:18
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Baron Bifford posted:Or you could say that when both fighters have precognitive abilities and can see attacks before they happen, it changes how they fight and it won't resemble two normal guys swordfighting. I hate this explanation so much. Precognition was ruined when it was turned from "If you concentrate you might see something that could or could not happen, and also rocks will float" to what is basically the Spider Sense.
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Sep 18, 2011 15:42
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Baron Bifford posted:Or you could say that when both fighters have precognitive abilities and can see attacks before they happen, it changes how they fight and it won't resemble two normal guys swordfighting. And a lot of things change when your blade is insubstantially light and every single part of it cuts. That still doesn't excuse a lot of the crap in the PT fights.
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Sep 18, 2011 15:54
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Baron Bifford posted:Or you could say that when both fighters have precognitive abilities and can see attacks before they happen, it changes how they fight and it won't resemble two normal guys swordfighting. Yeah I'll be sure to let the couple of olympic fencers I train with that they're doing it wrong. It's not like they can sense where you're going to lunge or anything and waving a sword around childishly is much better for getting the job done.
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Sep 18, 2011 16:35
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Torael_7 posted:And a lot of things change when your blade is insubstantially light and every single part of it cuts. That still doesn't excuse a lot of the crap in the PT fights. The blade has never seemed like it was weightless (for practical reasons probably). I rather like Vader having a seemingly heavy blade in ESB and ROTJ, it fits his enforcer personality quite well. You could always have some technobabble like gyroscopic gravity or whatever to give it some in-universe weight. But yeah, the all-edge part is true, and in that vein there's also probably something to be said about not requiring a lot of force to cut through stuff. I can sort of get behind the TPM fight now that I think about it. Although I haven't seen it in ages...
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Sep 18, 2011 16:59
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The Phantom Menace's climactic fight was technically pretty good, probably one of the few parts of that movie that are actually watchable. Most of it is down to Ray Park's gymnastics and skill with a staff. Aside from that, though, it suffers from the same thing as just about everything else in the prequels: nothing that's happening, no matter how technically proficient, matters at all because there's absolutely no emotional investment there. We know Obi-Wan survives. We haven't really been given a reason to care about Qui-Gon. Darth Maul is basically a huge, whistling void when it comes to character. All it really is, when you get right down to it, is a gymnastics floor show with fancy computer effects.
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Sep 18, 2011 17:29
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Tuxedo Jack posted:I'll defend the Phantom Menace fight - regardless of the Plunkett-regurgitating defenses for the OT fights - I think the fight in TPM is really exciting. However the ROTS fight did actually bore me. v I enjoy the TPM fight too, but one thing about it has always irked me. It's two guys fighting one, and we are supposed to cheer for the two guys. While I think it's supposed to make Darth Maul appear super-awesome and dangerous, it violates a certain sense of fairness in me. I like to compare it to a wrestling match, where you wouldn't establish the good guys by letting them team up (and get their asses kicked, at that) by one lone bad guy. It's a basic problem I have with the Rule of Two and the way the villains are constantly outnumbered by the good guys in the prequels, first Maul and later Dooku.
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Sep 18, 2011 17:29
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The big TPM fight was actually choreographed, even if the geography made no sense at all. Unfortunately, the choregraphy for Darth Maul was for performance martial arts rather than anything practical. It did make for a cool/dynamic fight, though--unlike the RotS duel. The rest of the prequels was Lucas making pew pew whirrrmm sounds and going "that looks cool let's do that". The precog thing should lead more into the OT style of fighting.
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Sep 18, 2011 17:31
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Nessus posted:I thought the in-universe explanation for why the lightsaber battles were less dynamic is because the in-film lightsaber fighters are: Whatever in-universe excuse they use, they still look laughable compared to the PT. I watched the OT not long ago and all I could think to myself was "I could beat any of these slow, uncoordinated dorks in a lightsaber fight".
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Sep 18, 2011 17:51
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arioch posted:The big TPM fight was actually choreographed, even if the geography made no sense at all. Unfortunately, the choregraphy for Darth Maul was for performance martial arts rather than anything practical. It did make for a cool/dynamic fight, though--unlike the RotS duel. That's another thing: While Darth Maul's choreography was certainly impressive, it didn't really seem to fit the concept of the Sith. The Sith are all about raw emotion and power, not this kind of martial arts flippy doo that you'd expect from a bald dude who wears a lot of orange and goes OM a lot. I have read the suggestion of a Sith vs. Jedi fight being more like Hulk vs. Spider-Man, and I really liked it. The way the Sith fight shouldn't be anything like the way the Jedi fight, because both draw their 'power' from completely different sources. Different powersets like the Sith's Force Lighting(c) kind of go in that direction, but they are awfully computer game-y at the same time. Which reminds me of how I always assumed that Darth Vader was using a lightsaber because he was once a Jedi, and that Sith don't necessarily use them. But nope, standard issue Sith Gear is 1 robe, black 1 growly voice 1 set of contact lenses, yellow or red, and 1 lightsaber, red
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Sep 18, 2011 18:00
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Grendels Dad posted:Which reminds me of how I always assumed that Darth Vader was using a lightsaber because he was once a Jedi, and that Sith don't necessarily use them. But nope, standard issue Sith Gear is Other than the saber, that was Palpatine's appearance, though?
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Sep 18, 2011 18:02
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Phylodox posted:The Phantom Menace's climactic fight was technically pretty good, probably one of the few parts of that movie that are actually watchable. Most of it is down to Ray Park's gymnastics and skill with a staff. Darth Maul was the only one who could fight with multiple lightsabers, Grievous had four lightsabers and all he did with them was twirl them around.
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Sep 18, 2011 18:14
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Mister Roboto posted:Other than the saber, that was Palpatine's appearance, though? And Anakin's, pre skinny-dipping in the lava-river. And the saber very much was part of Palpatine's equipment. You must have repressed memories of his fight with Mace Windu and his band of useless idiots.
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Sep 18, 2011 18:18
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Grendels Dad posted:And Anakin's, pre skinny-dipping in the lava-river. I meant OT-perception of Sith. So a lot of the deleted scenes are on youtube. Some of them are gonna be great fodder for editors, like more of Luke's training.
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Sep 18, 2011 18:25
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Mister Roboto posted:I meant OT-perception of Sith. Ah, OK. Sorry. But there are no Sith in the OT. There are Darth Vader and his master, but unless you start reading scripts there is nothing in the movies that identifies them as members of some kind of religious order. And the Emperor isn't even called Palpatine in the OT.
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Sep 18, 2011 19:31
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Man, I never saw the special edition of Return of the Jedi, but I walked in on my roommate watching the blu-ray yesterday and that dance scene in Jabba the Hutt's palace was so embarrassing to watch I had to walk out of the room. It did remind me of a fond childhood memory though. Did anyone else notice that in that scene the Dancers tit pops out of her shirt before she gets dropped into the monster pit? I remember pausing the VHS tape at that part a lot when I was a 12 year old.
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Sep 18, 2011 20:40
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Phylodox posted:The Phantom Menace's climactic fight was technically pretty good, probably one of the few parts of that movie that are actually watchable. Most of it is down to Ray Park's gymnastics and skill with a staff. Aside from that, though, it suffers from the same thing as just about everything else in the prequels: nothing that's happening, no matter how technically proficient, matters at all because there's absolutely no emotional investment there. We know Obi-Wan survives. We haven't really been given a reason to care about Qui-Gon. Darth Maul is basically a huge, whistling void when it comes to character. All it really is, when you get right down to it, is a gymnastics floor show with fancy computer effects. And even the quality of it is due to Ray Park, because he at least knew how to put on a show and being trained in that sort of performance art. Remember, for Empire and Jedi, they put Bob Anderson, a trained fencer and sword trainer, into the Vader suit for the duels, which he choreographed. There was a science of swordfighting in them. With the prequels, it was stuntman-turned-coordinator Nick Gillard, who handled all the lightsaber fights, just thinking of an idea and then saying, "Oh, hey, this would be cool," and incorporating it into the fight. Outside of the Phantom Menace duel, which is still disjointed in parts, the prequel duels are simply dudes with laser swords fighting without rhyme or reason (and there's that horrible sequence in Attack of the Clones where it's nothing but closeups of Anakin and Dooku with red and blue lights flashing back and forth  ). There's no story being told, and there's no technical proficiency. Hell, just look at the way everyone twirls their lightsabers all the drat time. Style over substance.
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Sep 18, 2011 20:51
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Tuxedo Jack posted:I'll defend the Phantom Menace fight - regardless of the Plunkett-regurgitating defenses for the OT fights - I think the fight in TPM is really exciting. However the ROTS fight did actually bore me. v The choreographic banging-the-sticks-together aspect of the fight was just fine. John Williams' score was sublime. The only problem with the fight was the lack of a reason for the audience to be emotionally involved. Really in a lot of ways whether a movie fight is "good" or not is determined by the development of the characters and plot before the fight ever starts. "You Jedi me Sith now we fight" just can't convincingly carry a fight no matter how well the technical details come together.
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Sep 18, 2011 21:04
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Grendels Dad posted:Ah, OK. Sorry. This is correct. So this means Lucas simply patterned the Sith religion after the Emperor's pre-established look. After ROTJ the merchandising was still getting a major push--Ewok is never said in ROTJ either, but everyone knows their name.
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Sep 18, 2011 22:51
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I wish I could stop buying these movies. Oh well at least they look pretty.
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Sep 18, 2011 23:37
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Darth Freddy posted:I wish I could stop buying these movies. Oh well at least they look pretty. Every time you get the urge to buy the movies, write me a check instead. I promise I will not buy them. You're welcome (in advance).
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Sep 18, 2011 23:52
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Grendels Dad posted:Ah, OK. Sorry. The novelization for A New Hope which was ghost written by Alan Dean Foster calls Vader the Dark Lord of the Sith and mentions Palpatine. Interestingly, the way the book describes his rise to power is pretty similar to how it played out in the prequels.
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Sep 18, 2011 23:53
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Joe Don Baker posted:The novelization for A New Hope which was ghost written by Alan Dean Foster calls Vader the Dark Lord of the Sith and mentions Palpatine. Interestingly, the way the book describes his rise to power is pretty similar to how it played out in the prequels. Yeah, the name Palpatine, the details on his rise to power (which even mentions the rise of evil corporations prior to the Clone Wars), and the term "Dark Lord of the Sith" all came from Lucas' script/backstory. I think the Marvel comics' adaption also refer to Vader as the Dark Lord of the Sith. Although even then it's never specified what a Sith is, and Palpatine is never linked with them until the prequels. I think in Dark Empire when Palpatine goes to Korriban the Sith spirits even taunt him for not being one of them. Also the ANH novelization has some weird stuff related to Palpatine, like Luke (or someone) referring to the "good Emperors" before him. Which even then I think is from earlier drafts of the ANH script.
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Sep 19, 2011 01:05
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Palpatine's level of malevolance also varies depending on which draft of the script it is. He goes from evil to puppet dictator, and whether he's a puppet unwillingly or if he likes being in a position of power but not having to do any work, that his advisers all "handle" instead.
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Sep 19, 2011 02:21
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