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Quantify! posted:Read my post until my answer becomes evident because I literally say exactly what has changed.
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Sep 20, 2011 08:54
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| # ? May 22, 2024 16:43 |
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She could just, you know, burn the loving city to the ground. Like she should have done at the beginning of ADWD. If this does not happen, Martin better have a drat good reason.
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Sep 20, 2011 08:55
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The only reason she isn't ruling Meereen fine and dandy is because the sneaky guild of jerks is loving with her. Here's how she gets to move on: Daenerys gathered all the muckity-mucks together. "Now, you guys will rule the city. If I hear that you guys gently caress it up and start slavery or some other bullshit, I will come back and feed you to my dragons. To demonstrate this point I will feed some jerks to my dragons." Daenerys then fed the jerks to her dragons. Or maybe your scenario in which Martin can't write his way out of a paper bag will happen. I'm gonna predict that it will not suck because I don't see any reason to be negative like that.
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Sep 20, 2011 09:06
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Quantify! posted:Daenerys gathered all the muckity-mucks together. "Now, you guys will rule the city. If I hear that you guys gently caress it up and start slavery or some other bullshit, I will come back and feed you to my dragons. To demonstrate this point I will feed some jerks to my dragons." Daenerys then fed the jerks to her dragons. This is Shavepate. He is my Viceroy. If you don't behave and obey him, I'm coming back to eat you. I'll check back in a year. Bye. Yeah, I had pretty much the same thought.
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Sep 20, 2011 09:13
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Quantify! posted:The only reason she isn't ruling Meereen fine and dandy is because the sneaky guild of jerks is loving with her.
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Sep 20, 2011 11:05
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Jon is dead because the Others aren't really a threat at all and have been a red herring this whole time. We don't need a POV at the wall because nothing that happens north of the wall affects the story.
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Sep 20, 2011 11:53
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Scrubber posted:Well, the Meerreenneesee Knot™ was in part that he couldn't decide what order to have people reach Dany in. The most annoying part of this, for me, is that all these characters happily assume that Dany will do whatever the hell it is they want without question. I man, she's got three goddamned dragons as is therefore probably the strongest force in the world we know of at the moment. Why would she just go "OK, I'll marry Victarion and wuv him forever and ever!"?
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Sep 20, 2011 12:34
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Haraksha posted:Jon is dead because the Others aren't really a threat at all and have been a red herring this whole time. We don't need a POV at the wall because nothing that happens north of the wall affects the story. This but with Daenerys and the east.
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Sep 20, 2011 12:44
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People hate the meereeneese knot stuff for the same reason people in TVIV hated Eddard getting killed. The whole point of the Dany chapters in dwd seemed to be foreshadowing that Dany is actually a horrible ruler, she’s impulsive, idealistic, naive, and relies extensively on a few trusted favourites to get stuff done. Everyone is so keen to see her roll into westeros with dragons that they’re wilfully ignoring the fact that she will be useless on the iron throne. She can’t hold a single slave city together with a huge host of supersoldiers and dragons; she’ll never cope in westeros. Consider this as well, Arya is clearly being set up as a one-shot character to assassinate someone important. There are only a handful of other primary characters (jon, tyrion, dany, cersei(?)) whose death would be worth that sort of narrative build-up and it’s been repeatedly stated that the faceless men don’t kill people they know; so the list of characters arya could be being set up to assassinate is essentially: dany. So prediction: dany will fail terribly in westeros, her hubris will lead her to refuse to pay the iron bank the massive debts accumulated by the kingdom and she will be assassinated by arya to show everyone that the ‘iron bank don’t forget ‘ and a million nerds will cry out in anger.
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Sep 20, 2011 12:48
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Also hastily shoehorned jon+dany ice n' fire targ romance puts jon and arya in direct conflict. Books end with the every major house broken and at each others throats.
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Sep 20, 2011 12:51
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Rustybear posted:People hate the meereeneese knot stuff for the same reason people in TVIV hated Eddard getting killed. Maybe, or loving things up in Meereen will teach what she needs to know about being a good Queen and the compromises necessary.
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Sep 20, 2011 12:59
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Junkenstein posted:Maybe, or loving things up in Meereen will teach what she needs to know about being a good Queen and the compromises necessary. That's what everyone wants to happen, but every character grrm writes screams there are no real good guys and no happy endings. Everyone laughs at the people who were desperately hoping rob/eddard was going to ride in and save the day and yet lots of people still seem convinced that dany is going to fly in and kick ramsey bolton square in the balls any minute now Rustybear fucked around with this message at 13:08 on Sep 20, 2011 |
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Sep 20, 2011 13:05
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Reread everything before finishing the book. Helped a lot. I enjoyed it... Especially the Stannis plotline  In regards to Jon, Also... Assuming that Jon is PTWP/AA, and he somehow went public (Howland Reed?), do you think JConnington would see him as a threat to Aegon? Would he have even known given how tight he was with Rhaegar? Oh. Mors Umber is awesome for baiting the crap out of Roose and the gang. 
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Sep 20, 2011 13:41
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He missed a serious opportunity to end the Mereen bullshit by not just having the three wild dragons start a fire and burn the loving place to the ground.
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Sep 20, 2011 13:52
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Iggles posted:She stays, not because she doesn't have the means to leave and the resources to start an assault on Westeros, but because she feels an obligation to Meereen and wants to rule it and be its saviour. Perhaps he shouldn't have written that. I really just don't give any shits at all about Meereen or it's people, move on. Just get her to Asshai so she can learn magic and all that poo poo.
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Sep 20, 2011 15:25
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Rustybear posted:That's what everyone wants to happen, but every character grrm writes screams there are no real good guys and no happy endings. I thought everyone hated Dany pretty much two books ago and want her to fail, but the dragons to get apportioned to fan favorite characters. People hate her story now, not because of a Ned "want the good guy to succeed" but because it's ridiculously disconnected and boring. Not many 20+ year old males want to read about stupid teenage crushes and watch a teenage girl gently caress stuff up, especially while it takes away pages from more interesting things, and on top of that, now she's pulling other characters that were normally focusing on more interesting stuff into her nonsense.
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Sep 20, 2011 15:48
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Mad Hamish posted:The most annoying part of this, for me, is that all these characters happily assume that Dany will do whatever the hell it is they want without question. I man, she's got three goddamned dragons as is therefore probably the strongest force in the world we know of at the moment. Why would she just go "OK, I'll marry Victarion and wuv him forever and ever!"? Victarion: (1) Get someone to blow the horn for him (2) "Ok, they're my dragons now." Volantenese: they just want to kill her. Tyrion: he definitely doesn't assume Dany will be friendly. Marwyn: we know nothing about this guy, he's had what, two pages of screen time total?
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Sep 20, 2011 15:56
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Rustybear posted:People hate the meereeneese knot stuff for the same reason people in TVIV hated Eddard getting killed. I saw it as she might actually have succeeded as a ruler had she skipped Meereen and conquered Westeros and claimed the Iron throne. In her naivety, she conquered and automatically expected fealty in what was essentially, for lack of better term, a corporatocracy with The Great Masters. She hosed with their biggest business and cash flow and Dany's council was unable to be effective because of their subversion, in contrast to what they would have been able to accomplish in King's Landing where holding Court, delegating and a handful of others accomplishing tasks in the name of the King / Queen was seen as the norm. (Yes, we know that KL is just as subversive and political, but at least it was what Dany would have expected instead of trying to rule and alien environment). If Dany truly wanted to conquer and rule Meereen she should have removed all the Great Masters (and all those who held any semblance of power) not through impalement, but through exile and stripping them of all their wealth. With that wealth continued to raise her army, bought / built a navy and trained her drat dragons. Then no matter what Yunkai and Volantis did with a blockade well, they'd be burning in Slaver's Bay or raided and crushed by Victarion's fleet. That would still leave the Sons of the Harpy inside Meereen, but assuming they were stripped of their bankroll (or a majority of it), I doubt they'd be much of a force for long.
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Sep 20, 2011 17:08
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geeves posted:She hosed with their biggest business and cash flow and Dany's council was unable to be effective because of their subversion, in contrast to what they would have been able to accomplish in King's Landing where holding Court, delegating and a handful of others accomplishing tasks in the name of the King / Queen was seen as the norm. (Yes, we know that KL is just as subversive and political, but at least it was what Dany would have expected instead of trying to rule and alien environment). Maybe she'll learn something and kill her opposition in Westeros. If she ever gets there.
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Sep 20, 2011 17:19
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I sometimes wonder if gurm sees Dany as the USA, and all the slaver territories as the middle east. Maybe he's trying to subliminally make a political statement? Something to the effect that the people would have been better off if she didn't insist on "saving" them? I wonder who symbolizes Obama...
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Sep 20, 2011 17:25
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Fog Tripper posted:I wonder who symbolizes Obama...
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Sep 20, 2011 17:48
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Junkenstein posted:Maybe, or loving things up in Meereen will teach what she needs to know about being a good Queen and the compromises necessary. Both Jon and Dany had to learn the hard way that compromises are necessary to lead. Jon had to kill the Halfhand, abandon Ygritte, and send his best friend away from the Wall. Dany had to kill her husband, exile her most faithful servant, and delay her life's goal of conquering the Iron Throne. The whole point of Meereen and Astapor is that Dany learns to not go for half-measures. By the time she gets to Westeros she'll be willing to just fry anyone who fucks with her. Much like Jon learned that you can't have a guy like Janos Slynt around unless he changes his tune, Dany will have learned that you can't put up with politicians who work behind your back to kill your guys. We just didn't get the scene where Dany burns all the shithead masters in this book because Martin's editor is dumb and thought that scene didn't need to be in this book. If it had been, people would have a lot less complaints.
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Sep 20, 2011 18:03
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Quantify! posted:We just didn't get the scene where Dany burns all the shithead masters in this book because Martin's editor is dumb and thought that scene didn't need to be in this book. If it had been, people would have a lot less complaints. Was this really cut? Would have been a much better ending imo then "let's kill Kevan Lannister".
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Sep 20, 2011 18:08
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Ross posted:Was this really cut? Would have been a much better ending imo then "let's kill Kevan Lannister". We only know a few chapters (100 or so pages) have been moved to WoW, but probably nothing to do with Dany returning to Meereen. GRRM mentioned it was a PoV or two that was moved and we already know one of them froma GRRM reading: Arianne. To do closure of Meereen any justice would be along the lines of the Blackwater PoVs from ACoK which could easily be comprised of Barristan, Dany, Tyrion and Victarion. I doubt 100 pages would cover Dany getting back to Meereen with Drogon and Khal Jhoqo and all the subsequent events.
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Sep 20, 2011 18:41
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There's definitely some Sansa chapters written already.
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Sep 20, 2011 18:56
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Ross posted:Was this really cut? Would have been a much better ending imo then "let's kill Kevan Lannister". Game of Thrones ended with Dany's sacrifice and the dragons being born. Clash of Kings ended with Dany burning the House of the Undying. Then she met Barristan and Strong Belwas so it didn't exactly end at the peak of her story but she still did some poo poo first. Storm of Swords ended with Dany sieging Meereen. Contrast that with the ending of Dance where Dany basically does nothing except bind Drogon to her will, but since this doesn't affect anything it's not all that exciting. It would've been far more natural to end with Dany returning to Meereen and putting the fire to all the jerks giving her trouble and feeding her traitorous husband to Drogon. Judging from the interview with his editor, this is what Martin probably would've ended the story with except he was convinced to do otherwise. As to why I blame the editor for this, here's the snippet of interview where she all but admits loving up the ending: quote:SS: One last question. I understand that George wrote more material than could physically fit in A DANCE WITH DRAGONS. Some of it will likely make its way to the next novel, THE WINDS OF WINTER. As his editor, how much say did you have in what stayed and what had to be pushed into the next book? Quantify! fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Sep 20, 2011 |
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Sep 20, 2011 19:27
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poo poo, that's the first time I've seen that. To me, it really makes it sound like the book was meant to include resolution to the Winterfell siege and the conclusion to the whole Meereene mess. You know, the two things that the books seemed to be building up to all along.
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Sep 20, 2011 19:49
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I thought that it was pretty obvious that Dany has finally realized that playing nice doesn't actually work for her. Her whole last chapter in ADwD is basically her reaping what her terrible idealism sowed. Now she's going to go the traditional Targ route of conqueror rather than ruler - it's just taken her this long to realize that's where her power and abilities actually lie (her abilities basically being limited to having Dragons). No character gets out of these books looking good.
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Sep 20, 2011 20:22
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Thing is, Dany will still be a better ruler than anyone else in the Seven Kingdoms because she can bind the people by force and she actually cares about the little people. That means no more wars (because she'll win them all) and the smallfolk don't get treated like poo poo. Early on when she was influenced by Viserys into hating "the Usurper" she would've made a poor Queen indeed, but now that she cares more about the people than her right to the throne she'd make a great Queen.
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Sep 20, 2011 20:36
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Yeah I'm not sure why you would cut that, that sounds great. editors
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Sep 20, 2011 20:40
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Quantify! posted:"a great Queen" There is no such thing as a good or even great monarch. The whole system is broken and oppressive. The Nights Watch have a democracy going that has worked for thousands of years. That is the way of the future.
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Sep 20, 2011 21:04
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Ross posted:Strong Belwas? gently caress No. I was thinking about perhaps the undying. You know, Smoke and mirrors with no real substance.
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Sep 20, 2011 21:11
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Has there ever been any Targaryians or anyone with Targ blood in the Nights Watch besides Aemon. And maybe Jon? I have a theory that Coldhands might be a secret Targ. Since the Others have a weakness to Valerian steel, there might be something about Valyrian blood that halts or impedes the process of becoming an Other.
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Sep 20, 2011 21:27
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niethan posted:There is no such thing as a good or even great monarch. The whole system is broken and oppressive. The Nights Watch have a democracy going that has worked for thousands of years. That is the way of the future.
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Sep 20, 2011 21:36
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Actually I hope the series ends with something else than another monarch in place. Oh now Robert is dead and Joffrey is King. Oh now Tommen is King. Oh now Daenerys is Queen. Oh now Sansa is Queen. That poo poo changes nothing for the plight of the common people. One agency they seem to have is in form of the clerical movement of the Sparrows and Poor Fellows, which seem very inclusive with regards to heritage and gender. I hope the importance of the prole is stepped up, because the game of thrones is as is often enough remarked by a lot of characters, a game played by few on the cost of many.
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Sep 20, 2011 22:08
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Junkenstein posted:poo poo, that's the first time I've seen that. To me, it really makes it sound like the book was meant to include resolution to the Winterfell siege and the conclusion to the whole Meereene mess. You know, the two things that the books seemed to be building up to all along. Yeah that was my only problem with the book, half the loving story lines weren't finished and were obviously cut out.
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Sep 20, 2011 22:23
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Tyrion is going to save Dany by virtue of being an absolute motherfucker. She gets nothing but poor advice for the entirety of Dance with Dragons, and her own softness blunts the few good moves she makes. For example, taking the hostages and not axing them. Once she has someone with Tyrions' chops on her side, she's going to own bones. All of his chapters and all of hers have been to illustrate that he is good at everything she isn't. Eagerly awaiting that particular marriage. If only because I'm betting the dialogue will be great.
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Sep 21, 2011 01:24
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Vengarr posted:Tyrion is going to save Dany by virtue of being an absolute motherfucker. She gets nothing but poor advice for the entirety of Dance with Dragons, and her own softness blunts the few good moves she makes. For example, taking the hostages and not axing them. Dany should go where whores go.
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Sep 21, 2011 01:47
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Vengarr posted:Tyrion is going to save Dany by virtue of being an absolute motherfucker. She gets nothing but poor advice for the entirety of Dance with Dragons, and her own softness blunts the few good moves she makes. For example, taking the hostages and not axing them. This is foreshadowed with Aegon's sudden turn of heart after he meets Tyrion.
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Sep 21, 2011 02:39
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Foreshadowed in the first book when Tyrion gives Jon some good advice. The great thing about Tyrion is he's so cheerfully indifferent to which side he's on. The only reason he worked against Stannis is because Stannis probably would've beheaded him had he won. He uses his house name to prop himself up and look more important, but in fact he has little loyalty to his own house which is understandable given how he's been treated by his family. I look forward to Dany meeting Tyrion, but I look forward even more to Dany meeting Jaime.
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Sep 21, 2011 03:02
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