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Triangulum
Oct 3, 2007

by Lowtax

Lanthanum posted:

Which PP did you go to? I went to one in SD that let my boyfriend come in with me when I had my implanon intserted/removed

The downtown one. I called again and they said nope, absolutely not so I canceled my appointment :(

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minema
May 31, 2011

The Royal Nonesuch posted:

Take it in the morning whenever you want your time to be. It's a Day 1 start, not an Hour 1.

Thank you!

Lanthanum
Oct 19, 2008

I wish I had a robot husband. That would be baller as fuck.

Triangulum posted:

The downtown one. I called again and they said nope, absolutely not so I canceled my appointment :(

Try Kearny Mesa or even Mira Mesa. It might be a bit of a drive depending on where you live, but they let my bf come in. It helps if you tell them you are scared shitless and you need her there

Triangulum
Oct 3, 2007

by Lowtax

Lanthanum posted:

Try Kearny Mesa or even Mira Mesa. It might be a bit of a drive depending on where you live, but they let my bf come in. It helps if you tell them you are scared shitless and you need her there

Awesome, thank you so much. It is a bit of a drive but whatever, totally worth it.

Kerfuffle
Aug 16, 2007

The sky calls to us~

Triangulum posted:

The downtown one. I called again and they said nope, absolutely not so I canceled my appointment :(

This is seriously some bullshit. I don't get angry at people at their jobs very often but wow I'd report that. It's in their own goddamn policy. :/

Best of luck missy.

Also my boyfriend, bless him, misunderstood what the Nuvaring coupon was for. He forgot it at home and decided to just pick up my rings anyway since the pharmacy is sort of out of the way. The problem is I got a 3 pack this time, and since this is a new pharmacy they NEVER transfer over your coupon history. $75 dollars. :negative: He wasted $45 and didn't even know it. We're both really really not in a position to waste money, we're unemployed. :( $45 gets a lot of groceries.

Kimmalah
Nov 14, 2005

Basically just a baby in a trenchcoat.


I'm have a question about the whole antibiotics/birth control thing. I've been taking doxycycline for the last two weeks and I'll be taking my last dose this coming Tuesday. How long should I use back up birth control afterwards? Is it just the usual seven days once the antibiotic is out of my system?

I know the jury is still out about whether there's any effect at all, but I'd like to err on the side of caution here.

muscat_gummy
Nov 30, 2008
Is depression due to the pill a side effect that might go away? I've been on it for only 3 weeks and I haven't felt sane that entire time. I want to lay around and cry all day and barely have the energy to get up out of my chair... when I'm not super irritable at anything and everything. It's awful. Should I tough it out? Acting like a crazy person is putting a strain on my relationship.

It's been like the worst PMS, but... for 3 weeks. I can deal with some of the side effects such as feeling like a hideous bloated thing and my boobs being super sensitive, but the emotional stuff is hard. :(

muscat_gummy fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Sep 25, 2011

Peggy Lee
Nov 17, 2005

You give me fever.

NaturalLow posted:

I'm have a question about the whole antibiotics/birth control thing. I've been taking doxycycline for the last two weeks and I'll be taking my last dose this coming Tuesday. How long should I use back up birth control afterwards? Is it just the usual seven days once the antibiotic is out of my system?

I know the jury is still out about whether there's any effect at all, but I'd like to err on the side of caution here.

The most conservative length of time I've been recommended is 'until you finish that month's worth of pills'. The reasoning behind that is that if your pill failed to prevent ovulation due to the antibiotics this cycle, you will start being 'covered' again when you start your next cycle with an uninterrupted dose of hormones. Again, this is the most conservative estimate - but if it makes you feel most protected against pregnancy and thus least stressed out, I'd say follow it.

I hate to ask after the fact, but have you been using backup while taking the antibiotic?

Kerfuffle
Aug 16, 2007

The sky calls to us~

muscat_gummy posted:

Is depression due to the pill a side effect that might go away? I've been on it for only 3 weeks and I haven't felt sane that entire time. I want to lay around and cry all day and barely have the energy to get up out of my chair... when I'm not super irritable at anything and everything. It's awful. Should I tough it out? Acting like a crazy person is putting a strain on my relationship.

It's been like the worst PMS, but... for 3 weeks. I can deal with some of the side effects such as feeling like a hideous bloated thing and my boobs being super sensitive, but the emotional stuff is hard. :(
If the side effects are hurting your everyday life, by all means change pills. There's no point in suffering through difficult side effects when you really don't have to.

Reformed Tomboy
Feb 2, 2005

chu~~

Peggy Lee posted:

The most conservative length of time I've been recommended is 'until you finish that month's worth of pills'. The reasoning behind that is that if your pill failed to prevent ovulation due to the antibiotics this cycle, you will start being 'covered' again when you start your next cycle with an uninterrupted dose of hormones. Again, this is the most conservative estimate - but if it makes you feel most protected against pregnancy and thus least stressed out, I'd say follow it.

I hate to ask after the fact, but have you been using backup while taking the antibiotic?

But what if she finished her antibiotics during the fourth week of her pills? I get what they're saying, but that's not always a good rule to go by.

7 days is what it takes for antibiotics to get out of your system. So use backup during the regimen, and for 7 days after you take the last dose and then you'll be safe again.

Kimmalah
Nov 14, 2005

Basically just a baby in a trenchcoat.


Peggy Lee posted:

The most conservative length of time I've been recommended is 'until you finish that month's worth of pills'. The reasoning behind that is that if your pill failed to prevent ovulation due to the antibiotics this cycle, you will start being 'covered' again when you start your next cycle with an uninterrupted dose of hormones. Again, this is the most conservative estimate - but if it makes you feel most protected against pregnancy and thus least stressed out, I'd say follow it.

I hate to ask after the fact, but have you been using backup while taking the antibiotic?

I haven't been sexually active while on the medication, so it hasn't really been an issue right now. I'll be visiting my boyfriend next weekend though, which is why I was checking.

And if it makes a difference at all, I'll be on the first week of a new pack once I finish the antibiotics.

I guess on the bright side, I'll finally get rid of some of those free condoms I get from the clinic. They've been piling up. :haw:

DRP Solved!
Dec 2, 2009

Reformed Tomboy posted:

7 days is what it takes for antibiotics to get out of your system. So use backup during the regimen, and for 7 days after you take the last dose and then you'll be safe again.

The time that it takes to get out of your body varies significantly from antibiotic to antibiotic, for example it's 3-5 days for doxycycline. If you subscribe to the idea that antibiotics decrease the effectiveness of birth control (doxycycline doesn't), then you would want to use backup for 7 days after the antibiotic has cleared from your body (so 10-12 days after finishing doxycycline) in order to get a guaranteed 7 days of consistent hormone levels.

Kimmalah
Nov 14, 2005

Basically just a baby in a trenchcoat.


DRP Solved! posted:

The time that it takes to get out of your body varies significantly from antibiotic to antibiotic, for example it's 3-5 days for doxycycline. If you subscribe to the idea that antibiotics decrease the effectiveness of birth control (doxycycline doesn't), then you would want to use backup for 7 days after the antibiotic has cleared from your body (so 10-12 days after finishing doxycycline) in order to get a guaranteed 7 days of consistent hormone levels.

Thanks for the guidelines, that's what I was looking for. The websites and drug information insert haven't been very helpful beyond the vague "use back up birth control for a while." I'll probably still use it for a bit just because better safe than pregnant I guess.

(Thanks to everyone else who contributed too of course. :) )

Reformed Tomboy
Feb 2, 2005

chu~~

DRP Solved! posted:

The time that it takes to get out of your body varies significantly from antibiotic to antibiotic, for example it's 3-5 days for doxycycline. If you subscribe to the idea that antibiotics decrease the effectiveness of birth control (doxycycline doesn't), then you would want to use backup for 7 days after the antibiotic has cleared from your body (so 10-12 days after finishing doxycycline) in order to get a guaranteed 7 days of consistent hormone levels.

7 days is always what I've been told, so it's nice to get a more accurate response, thanks.

evelynevvie
Sep 14, 2004

I'll fry you like a fritter! Crispy on the outside... chewy on the inside!!!

How does taking the Nuvaring out (like for sex or whatever) work? I seem to remember reading that you could take it up for up to 3 hours in a 24 hour period years ago when I was on it before. Am I remembering it correctly, or is it more like up to 3 hours in a week/month/something else?

samizdat
Dec 3, 2008
I've been having really bad fatigue issues for the past several weeks and only now realized that it seems to coincide with when I started taking Tri-Nessa, the generic of Ortho Tri-Cyclen. I had been on the brand name but switched to a different pharmacy and they just gave me the generic and I took it. I don't know for sure that it's the cause, or exactly how it could be causing my problems.

Is there a reliable way to look up side effects that isn't going to give me deranged unscientific ranting like "ZOMG MY SISTER TOOK THIS MEDICINE AND DIED THE NEXT DAY!!1" (like Googling "[any medicine] side effects" does)? My experience almost exactly matches this, specifically the leg aches and tiredness, but it doesn't seem to go away during the placebo week. This seems to be a complaint documented with TriNessa online.

Anyhow, I'm quitting TriNessa as of today, just to see how it goes.

Lanthanum
Oct 19, 2008

I wish I had a robot husband. That would be baller as fuck.

evelynevvie posted:

How does taking the Nuvaring out (like for sex or whatever) work? I seem to remember reading that you could take it up for up to 3 hours in a 24 hour period years ago when I was on it before. Am I remembering it correctly, or is it more like up to 3 hours in a week/month/something else?

3 hours for that session. I dunno why you would though, it never really gets in the way of sex, neither my partner or I can't feel it when we are having sex.

Reformed Tomboy
Feb 2, 2005

chu~~

Lanthanum posted:

3 hours for that session. I dunno why you would though, it never really gets in the way of sex, neither my partner or I can't feel it when we are having sex.

That's you though. My partner could feel it when I was on the ring. Once I left it in for sex and in a freak sex accident his penis caught the ring, pulled it out and flung it onto the floor. I had to go get a new ring because it had been contaminated. I never forgot to take it out after that.

And yes, it's 3 hours every 24 hours.

The Peacock
Dec 3, 2010

Reformed Tomboy posted:

That's you though. My partner could feel it when I was on the ring. Once I left it in for sex and in a freak sex accident his penis caught the ring, pulled it out and flung it onto the floor. I had to go get a new ring because it had been contaminated. I never forgot to take it out after that.

And yes, it's 3 hours every 24 hours.

You can rinse it off in the sink, I don't understand why you got a new one?

Reformed Tomboy
Feb 2, 2005

chu~~
Dorm room floor; didn't want to risk it.

Kimmalah
Nov 14, 2005

Basically just a baby in a trenchcoat.


samizdat posted:

I've been having really bad fatigue issues for the past several weeks and only now realized that it seems to coincide with when I started taking Tri-Nessa, the generic of Ortho Tri-Cyclen. I had been on the brand name but switched to a different pharmacy and they just gave me the generic and I took it. I don't know for sure that it's the cause, or exactly how it could be causing my problems.

Is there a reliable way to look up side effects that isn't going to give me deranged unscientific ranting like "ZOMG MY SISTER TOOK THIS MEDICINE AND DIED THE NEXT DAY!!1" (like Googling "[any medicine] side effects" does)? My experience almost exactly matches this, specifically the leg aches and tiredness, but it doesn't seem to go away during the placebo week. This seems to be a complaint documented with TriNessa online.

Anyhow, I'm quitting TriNessa as of today, just to see how it goes.

Usually when I search for a drug through Google, the first results I get are from pretty reputable sources like the NIH and Mayo Clinic. They'll give you a list of side effects among other things. Since the active ingredients in generics are supposed to be exactly the same as the name brand, I doubt they're going to distinguish between the two though.

minema
May 31, 2011
As I've just said in the menstrual cup thread, I've been having what I assume is breakthrough bleeding. I just started the pill about a week ago, my period finished, but there's been a bit of watery blood every day since then. I've read this is normal but I wasn't expecting it to be every day, is this ok? :ohdear:

G-Spot Run
Jun 28, 2005

Reformed Tomboy posted:

That's you though. My partner could feel it when I was on the ring. Once I left it in for sex and in a freak sex accident his penis caught the ring, pulled it out and flung it onto the floor. I had to go get a new ring because it had been contaminated. I never forgot to take it out after that.

I left the house today seeking OCP and came home with a nuvaring. I'm already freaking myself out about the potential logistics here, like will every trip to the toilet might turn into a $25 experiment in muscle control and will I need to take it for sex and if so where do I put it if I take it out for sex (hair band?) ...

Also I am going to start a band and call it freak sex accident. The band members will be my illegitimate partridge children because I didn't realise I still had my nuvaring holding up my ponytail :smith:

evelynevvie
Sep 14, 2004

I'll fry you like a fritter! Crispy on the outside... chewy on the inside!!!

Kat Delacour posted:

I left the house today seeking OCP and came home with a nuvaring. I'm already freaking myself out about the potential logistics here, like will every trip to the toilet might turn into a $25 experiment in muscle control and will I need to take it for sex and if so where do I put it if I take it out for sex (hair band?) ...

Also I am going to start a band and call it freak sex accident. The band members will be my illegitimate partridge children because I didn't realise I still had my nuvaring holding up my ponytail :smith:

Whoaaaaa nelly. Calm down, it's ok :)

The ring is really, really stiff. you have to squeeze it firmly to get it in, but once you let go it will stay in there really good. Just shove it back as far as you can, and you will be fine. ;) You will have to get used to putting your fingers up in your bits if you aren't already but its not bad at all.

Keep the envelope it comes in. You need to anyway to dispose of it (throw it away) anyway, so just put the ring in the envelope if you take it out for sex. Make sure if you do take it out to rinse it off before you reinsert it. I haven't tried sex with it in yet, but I'm told it usually doesn't bother anyone. So you probably won't need to anyway.

Once you get used to it, the Nuvaring is fantastic. You don't have to deal with pills, just put it in and forget about it for 3 weeks.

junidog
Feb 17, 2004
So my girlfriend just started on Nuvaring a month ago, and this is her "off week" when she takes it out. My question is, is it still effective once the ring is out/is condomless sex safe for that week? I've searched this thread and the nuvaring website, but haven't seen an answer. I have seen it answered on places like Yahoo, but that's not really anything official. Some documentation would be awesome, if someone's got it.

evelynevvie
Sep 14, 2004

I'll fry you like a fritter! Crispy on the outside... chewy on the inside!!!

junidog posted:

So my girlfriend just started on Nuvaring a month ago, and this is her "off week" when she takes it out. My question is, is it still effective once the ring is out/is condomless sex safe for that week? I've searched this thread and the nuvaring website, but haven't seen an answer. I have seen it answered on places like Yahoo, but that's not really anything official. Some documentation would be awesome, if someone's got it.

It's the same as any birth control, as long as she puts a new one in on the proper day she is fine. On regular BC pills, you take the pills every day for 3 weeks, and the 4th week you have a sugar (placebo) pill that just keeps you in the habit of taking a pill every day. It's the same thing.

Of course if someone can explain WHY it works that way, I'd like to know. I don't really know the answer to that. But yes, your girlfriend is fine to have sex during week 4.

Reformed Tomboy
Feb 2, 2005

chu~~

Kat Delacour posted:

I left the house today seeking OCP and came home with a nuvaring. I'm already freaking myself out about the potential logistics here, like will every trip to the toilet might turn into a $25 experiment in muscle control and will I need to take it for sex and if so where do I put it if I take it out for sex (hair band?) ...

Also I am going to start a band and call it freak sex accident. The band members will be my illegitimate partridge children because I didn't realise I still had my nuvaring holding up my ponytail :smith:

Oh no, I didn't mean to worry you! Just to point out poo poo happens.

They're rather similar to tampons, they stay in place even while going to the bathroom. And if you need to poke it up there a little more, you can, no big deal. Seconding keeping the bag it comes in. It's like a metallic wrapper/pouch that keeps it nice and safe while you have it out. Plus you can write your insertion date on there so you remember when to use the next one.

bobula
Jul 3, 2007
a guy hello

evelynevvie posted:

Of course if someone can explain WHY it works that way, I'd like to know. I don't really know the answer to that. But yes, your girlfriend is fine to have sex during week 4.

The explanation I got is that the buildup of hormones over the previous three weeks of having it in cover you during the week it's out. Which makes perfect sense.

I used the ring for just under a year. It was great as far as keeping me from having babies went, but it also made a over-worried overreacting co-dependant crazy woman who cried at the slightest provocation (and sometimes not even that), so I had to stop. :( I always had to take it out during sex because it'd pop out anyway and then I had to go searching for it after.


So I had a Mirena put in about a month ago and all of my residual emotional upset is gone, but the spotting remains. I seem to have slowed down with that though, and now when I go to empty my cup it instead contains clear liquid of some sort. I never had this much clear discharge so I'm not sure what it is. It's really watery and just looks kind of like water tinged with a tiny bit of blood. I wonder what it is?

G-Spot Run
Jun 28, 2005

Reformed Tomboy posted:

Oh no, I didn't mean to worry you! Just to point out poo poo happens.

They're rather similar to tampons, they stay in place even while going to the bathroom. And if you need to poke it up there a little more, you can, no big deal. Seconding keeping the bag it comes in. It's like a metallic wrapper/pouch that keeps it nice and safe while you have it out. Plus you can write your insertion date on there so you remember when to use the next one.

It's okay it wasn't you as much as reading the booklet thoroughly. Dislodgement by strong bowel movements is another potential band name.

Ojo
Jul 4, 2003

Well... when I said that I had a plan, I meant that I have to plan... the plan.

Looked back a few pages and didn't see any mention (which probably means it's a dreadful idea!) but does anyone know anything about online pharmacies?

I'm currently living abroad but unable to register with a doctor until I find a job here, but I run out of pills in 10 weeks. Being a bit of a worrier, I am stressing out about this potentially being an issue.. Travelling back to my birth country is an option, but an expensive one, and I'm currently looking into planned parenthood type options but I'm not sure if there's anything available, or even if I'd be entitled to treatment there. So as a back up, I was considering ordering from an online pharmacy, but don't want to be given sugar pills or get arrested or something ridiculous like that. Is it an option worth considering or should I not bother?

DRP Solved!
Dec 2, 2009

Ojo posted:

Looked back a few pages and didn't see any mention (which probably means it's a dreadful idea!) but does anyone know anything about online pharmacies?

I'm currently living abroad but unable to register with a doctor until I find a job here, but I run out of pills in 10 weeks. Being a bit of a worrier, I am stressing out about this potentially being an issue.. Travelling back to my birth country is an option, but an expensive one, and I'm currently looking into planned parenthood type options but I'm not sure if there's anything available, or even if I'd be entitled to treatment there. So as a back up, I was considering ordering from an online pharmacy, but don't want to be given sugar pills or get arrested or something ridiculous like that. Is it an option worth considering or should I not bother?

Do you have an online pharmacy in mind or are you asking about Googling it and hoping for the best? Which country are you in right now?

My personal viewpoint is that I wouldn't buying medications from an online pharmacy unless I was absolutely certain that it is official and legal in the country in which it's located and that it's in a country with stringent standards. Doubly so for birth control if you're sexually active since you don't know if you got duped unless it's too late.

Do you have a family doctor in your home country? Depending on which country you're in, you could try to arrange it so that you doctor could write you a prescription to be filled in your home country, which could then be picked up and shipped by a family member. This requires quite a bit of communication and coordination, and you need to make sure that this importation/exportation is ok in both countries.

Ojo
Jul 4, 2003

Well... when I said that I had a plan, I meant that I have to plan... the plan.

I was looking at EuroClinix, which seemed marginally less shady than other sites I'd seen. Currently am in Norway but can just as easily ship to residence in Sweden, which may be easier as it's still EU. The thing that bothers me is the site says nothing about legality in different countries at all. I'm thinking this probably isn't a wise idea.

I still have a doctor in my home country, but no immediate family who could get a prescription for me.

Edit: looks like I might have potentially found a planned parenthood service where I can buy pills, yay! Might need to switch to a different pill as according to Wiki mine isn't available here, but anything is better than latex-free condoms!

Thank you for your help. :)

Ojo fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Sep 29, 2011

The Peacock
Dec 3, 2010
How soon will the Nova-T be effective? I will ideally get it on day 5 of my period, but if that falls on a weekend, either I need to use my last NuvaRing, or go without any contraceptive until insertion.

It should be imediately, regardless of prior contraceptives, right?

The Peacock fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Sep 29, 2011

Bagleworm
Aug 15, 2007
I has your rocks

The Peacock posted:

How soon will the Nova-T be effective? I will ideally get it on day 5 of my period, but if that falls on a weekend, either I need to use my last NuvaRing, or go without any contraceptive until insertion.

Copper IUDs are one of the few contraceptives that are effective immediately, and they are even used as emergency contraception, so you could technically go without contraception if you wanted to and the risk of pregnancy wouldn't be that high... but if the insertion is later than seven days after you remove your Nuvaring, I would recommend using another form of contraceptive just to be absolutely sure. Condoms would be sufficient.

Namirsolo
Jan 20, 2009

Like that, babe?
This might be a dumb question, but are ultra thin condoms more likely to break? I'm on the pill, but taking an antibiotic, so I'll need a back up method.

Also, is it only while I'm taking the antibiotic that it will affect the pill or will it stay in my system longer?

muscat_gummy
Nov 30, 2008
I've never had a problem with ultra thin condoms. I've witnessed the horror of a condom breaking twice in my life, and both or those were regular ones.

Kerfuffle posted:

If the side effects are hurting your everyday life, by all means change pills. There's no point in suffering through difficult side effects when you really don't have to.

I can't get an appointment until next Thursday (by which time I would be on the next pack). :(
I'm going to get back on Wellbutrin just to deal with the depression I slog through every month before/during/after my period (which, from what I can tell on the placebo week right now, has only been made worse!), so maybe that'll be enough to cancel it out? Last time I was on the pill (Sprintec) I was already on Wellbutrin and things were just peachy.

ladyweapon
Nov 6, 2010

It reads all over his face,
like he's an Italian.
I went to my doctor today to talk about new birth control. After a couple years on depo I went off and realized that it was exacerbating my mental health issues a bit. While I loved the constant protection (and no period), I decided to stay off it. I tried the ring, but it wouldn't stay properly placed no matter what I did, so I gave up and went BC free for about two months. Relying solely on condoms to prevent babies kind of freaks me out so I asked my doc about an IUD.

She was hesitant until I told her it was that or sterilization, so suddenly she got totally on board with the IUD. I've had no children (not even a pregnancy scare, thanks Depo!) and she said she would be administering a local anesthetic to my cervix to (possibly?) help with insertion.

I'm getting a needle put in my vagina, y'all :gonk:

I don't freak about needles since I donated blood regularly, but.. my vagina! She also told me to take like 1000mg of ibuprofin (allergic to aspirin) beforehand to help with the pain. So on October 7th I'm going to attempt to get an insertion and I hope it works because the doc said Mirena wouldn't affect my mental health issues. She also said they can't insert until 10 days after my last vaginal intercourse, anyone know why?

edit: Wait, I can bring someone with me to this? The boyfriend already said he'd bring me nice chocolates and it'd be neat if I could break hold his hand while they shot up my vagina.

vv thanks :shobon:

ladyweapon fucked around with this message at 06:23 on Sep 30, 2011

Kerfuffle
Aug 16, 2007

The sky calls to us~
A few ladies in here have had their cervix's numbed for IUDs too and they're still here to tell about. And yes, you should be allowed to bring someone with you. :) Call ahead and ask to make sure, because as I've learned recently in this thread not all offices are especially respectful to patients' perfectly reasonable requests.

However, talk very seriously to your doctor, ask if she's ever given IUDs to women who haven't had kids so you can know what kind of experience she has doing it. If she's never done it before, I'd ask for a referral to someone who has.

I think the 10 day thing was to ensure your vag is clean or something I've forgotten what the explanation was since a few were suggested.

Ceridwen
Dec 11, 2004
Of course... If the Jell-O gets moldy, the whole thing should be set aflame.

If you click the ? under my name you can check out the my other posts in this thread where I talk about my IUD experience, including a bad removal experience that involved having my cervix numbed.

Its not standard practice for an uncomplicated insertion though (even if you haven't had kids), and I agree with Kerfluffle that you should talk to your doctor about how many she has done on women without kids. While the numbing does work, the pain of the injections was almost as bad as my lidocaine-free insertion of the first IUD, which makes getting them really not worth it if the insertion is not complicated in some way.

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Moto Punch
Feb 3, 2009

2508084 posted:

she said she would be administering a local anesthetic to my cervix to (possibly?) help with insertion.

I'm getting a needle put in my vagina, y'all :gonk:


I had this done - despite the doctors best efforts to cleft my cervix open with her sounding device :gonk: it wouldn't budge. The injection was a pretty horrible feeling, but it didn't last long, and insertion was a breeze and very quick after that. I'd much rather have had the injection at the start rather than all that poking and prodding.

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