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Galaga Galaxian posted:The main reason Orlanthi distrust dogs is because Narangos the Bad Dog, leader of a pack of demonic hounds, murdered Yinkin's children and lovers. Yinkin, seeking revenge, went after Narangos, but the demon hound was stronger and Yinkin would've died had Orlanth not come along. Orlanth flipped his poo poo about someone trying to kill his beloved half-brother and basically killed the gently caress out of Narangos and his pack with his Godly might, blasting the demon dogs to the underworld. This stuff is really good, and I absolutely loved the things they put in the game. I wish this was more popular (and I had the effort in me to actually play proper rpgs like it), because it deserves some looking into for sure.
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Sep 29, 2011 10:15
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Awesome, this whole setting is awesome. How about the dragons? The Pass is supposedly crawling with 'em (though I don't think you ever actually see one?), they lured all these people in and killed 'em before, then they leave the next wave of settlers completely alone when they come swarming in because apparently 'monsters will eat you' didn't hurt real estate values enough?
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Sep 29, 2011 17:07
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Tubgirl Cosplay posted:Awesome, this whole setting is awesome. there's a dragon in the quivin mountains and you can send your trickster to rob it by cheating at gambling.
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Sep 29, 2011 17:54
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andrew smash posted:there's a dragon in the quivin mountains and you can send your trickster to rob it by cheating at gambling. That's just a wyrm, there are a couple real dragons in the endgame though. Not sure if I should spoil them.
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Sep 29, 2011 19:08
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oh, oops. My mistake.
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Sep 29, 2011 19:21
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Flame112 posted:That's just a wyrm, there are a couple real dragons in the endgame though. Not sure if I should spoil them. gently caress I forgot about that one (it's just the test one, right? or are you counting the priest at the very end, which is also kinda crazy) So at that point they're pretty much actively cooperating with the kingdom (to the extent non-duck nonhumans ever do so). It's sorta confusing in the game since the setup in the opening seemed to be explicitly building up to you uniting all the clans to protect against a second dragon attack and it just never materializes, they wanna be bros now oh okay.
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Sep 29, 2011 19:22
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enigma74 posted:Hey, keep going. Who are these Lunars are where are they from? The Lunars are an empire associated with one of Gloranthas moons, obviously the red one. They have some sort of powerful queen/goddess. I'm fairly certain they occupy and enslave some Orlanthi much later in the timeline, possibly in Dragon Pass? They're huge jerks. And yeah, if you look around the main KODP page, you can find links to an old and incomplete database of Gloranthan knowledge. I've gone through pretty much everything on it that relates to the Orlanthi, but a lot of the links are broken and some of it is in German. It's still a good read, and they have a huge list of gods and goddesses. One thing I've always thought was weird - why is there a clan in KODP who worship the Troll god, Argan Argar? I've gotten them into my tribe once, and we made peace with the trolls because of them (which was cool), but I find it odd with all the hatred of trolls among the Orlanthi that the rest of the clans tolerate some evil darkness worshipping guys. Although to be fair to the trolls, everything I've read outside of the game makes them seem less evil. They HATE chaos, maybe more than anyone. But maybe that is just an "enemy of my enemy" thing, and they hate everyone else too.
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Sep 29, 2011 19:23
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Flame112 posted:That's just a wyrm, there are a couple real dragons in the endgame though. Not sure if I should spoil them. Was the test dragon even real? That poo poo was confusing.
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Sep 29, 2011 19:24
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Darth Windu posted:The Lunars are an empire associated with one of Gloranthas moons, obviously the red one. They have some sort of powerful queen/goddess. I'm fairly certain they occupy and enslave some Orlanthi much later in the timeline, possibly in Dragon Pass? They're huge jerks. I wanna know more about these chaos guys this because an empire of dudes who straight up worship evil monsters that are trying to rapekill everyone in the sorta non-subjective sense of 'my neighbors got devoured last season' seems really jarring, given how much effort goes into making everything else thought-out and plausible in context. Badguys who sic world-eating demons on their families while cackling because they're Evil and oh so crazy are just goddamn cartoony, is there some really compelling reason Bronze Age peasants are looking at the giant meatball made of screaming faces tearing through their town and going "Yes, this is a thing I should make friends with!" Tubgirl Cosplay fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Sep 29, 2011 |
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Sep 29, 2011 19:42
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Tubgirl Cosplay posted:I wanna know more about these chaos guys this because an empire of dudes who straight up worship evil monsters that are trying to rapekill everyone in the sorta non-subjective sense of 'my neighbors got devoured last season' seems really jarring, given how much effort goes into making everything else thought-out and plausible in context. Badguys who sic world-eating demons on their families while cackling because they're Evil and oh so crazy are just goddamn cartoony, is there some really compelling reason Bronze Age peasants are looking at the giant meatball made of screaming faces tearing through their town and going "Yes, this is a thing I should make friends with!" Chaos is the enemy of everyone. It's like the one thing that unites everyone in Glorantha, pretty much all races and civilizations hate chaos. There ARE chaos cults, though, I'm not sure how that works. Are you talking about the Crimson Bat? I'm fairly sure that the Lunars just make use of the Bat. The Red Goddess isn't actually a part of chaos, she just bends it to her will and uses it against her enemies, which is why nobody likes the Lunar Empire. They don't actually worship chaos like the chaos cults do, as far as I know.
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Sep 29, 2011 20:05
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it's more complex than that, I have the Sartar book too and it gets into some of this stuff in fair depth (although it can be a bit indirect). Basically what it means to be down with chaos in that sense is not that they openly worship insane chaos beasts, but they are willing to use chaos magic which is wicked powerful but tainted and dangerous. In contrast orlanthi just straight up kill anybody who is born with an affinity to one of the chaos runes.
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Sep 29, 2011 20:06
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Okay, bunch of answers.Tubgirl Cosplay posted:I wanna know more about these chaos guys this because an empire of dudes who straight up worship evil monsters that are trying to rapekill everyone in the sorta non-subjective sense of 'my neighbors got devoured last season' seems really jarring, given how much effort goes into making everything else thought-out and plausible in context. Badguys who sic world-eating demons on their families while cackling because they're Evil and oh so crazy are just goddamn cartoony, is there some really compelling reason Bronze Age peasants are looking at the giant meatball made of screaming faces tearing through their town and going "Yes, this is a thing I should make friends with!" The Lunars belive that nothing is evil, everything is balanced, creation leads to destruction, and destruction leads to creation. Chaos to a Lunar is simply one more thing to understand, and bring into the glorious Lunar empire. Just like how the Red Goddess proved her divinity when she returned to Glorantha from the underworld riding the Crimson Bat (Who is a chaotically mutated deathgoddess). So basicly, the Lunar Empire think they can control chaos, and make the giant meatball made of screaming faces attack their enemies rather than their friends. Of course, they plan on uniting everything into one gloriously huge empire. Darth Windu posted:Was the test dragon even real? That poo poo was confusing. Probably just a dream dragon, given how it vanishes. For those who don't know what that is, when True Dragons dream, their dreams become solid, and go around rampaging the country, eating people, and stealing their gold. Tubgirl Cosplay posted:Awesome, this whole setting is awesome. They didn't deliberately lure the people in to be lunch, and it wasn't immediate. The Empire of Wyrm's Friends lasted for generations, was one of the two mightiest empires of the age, and conquered land all the way to Dara Happa (a far off northern country where everyone worships the Evil Emperor. Or at least did, until the coming of the Red Goddess, who they now worship) enigma74 posted:Hey, keep going. Who are these Lunars are where are they from? The Lunar Empire began when the Seven Mothers (consisting of a Queen, a Warlord, a Scholar, a Witch, an Outlaw and a Sacrifice. The 7th mother is simply known as She Who Waits, and no one is sure who or what she was. Some say she was a Priestess of the Blue Moon, the Lunars claimed in Tarsh that she was Ernalda.) They performed a ritual, created a new goddess, who proved her right to exist in a battle against all the old gods (Including Orlanth). Then she took a huge ammount of land from the center of Dara Happa, made it rise into the sky, and turned it into the Red Moon. The capitol of the Lunar Empire is on the rim of the crater left from the rising of the Red Moon. As for the Pharaoh, he eventually meets his end at the hands of a Lunar. The Pharaoh (or God King), was immortal. Every time he died, they had a heroquest called the Masters of Luck and Death, where they would choose the next vessel for Pharaoh to be reborn into. One time, a Lunar Heroine named JarEel the Razoress ambushed him on the quest, killed him, and stopped him from being reborn. This made his empire fall apart. His capitol city became blocked off, and things started going badly. Darth Windu posted:One thing I've always thought was weird - why is there a clan in KODP who worship the Troll god, Argan Argar? I've gotten them into my tribe once, and we made peace with the trolls because of them (which was cool), but I find it odd with all the hatred of trolls among the Orlanthi that the rest of the clans tolerate some evil darkness worshipping guys. Argan Argar is a relatively friendly trollish god of ruling the surface, trading (he traded with Issaries for the rune of trade), and currency. He also was married to Ernalda at one point, which the Orlanthi furiously deny, but then they also deny Elmal was married to her, and that Heler, god of the rain was yet another one of her husbands. The Trolls arn't a major foe of the Orlanthi, they're monsters sure, but they're not chaos, or sun worshipers, or sorcerers. In fact, before the Pharaoh came, many Orlanthi who had survived after the Dragonkill had lived under the protection of the Only Old One, Ezkankeko, son of Argan Argar and ruler of the Shadow Plateau.
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Sep 29, 2011 20:32
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This game sounds great, but I don't have an iPhone. Is it possible to wrangle this game into working on Windows 7?
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Sep 29, 2011 22:07
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SlothfulCobra posted:This game sounds great, but I don't have an iPhone. Is it possible to wrangle this game into working on Windows 7? You can get the older version by mailing the creators 20 bucks. That's about all you can do on the legal side of things.
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Sep 29, 2011 22:09
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Hahaha, I think I just found out that my humakti warlord is gay. I was checking advice from the clan ring regarding the chief's daughter's marriage proposal event and he got all flustered and said he became a humakti precisely to avoid situations like that. Then somebody struck him down during a raid despite his heroic combat skill 
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Sep 29, 2011 22:28
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Well now, y'see why we had Don't Ask Don't Tell?Tindalos posted:Awesome thanks
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Sep 29, 2011 22:34
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andrew smash posted:Hahaha, I think I just found out that my humakti warlord is gay. I was checking advice from the clan ring regarding the chief's daughter's marriage proposal event and he got all flustered and said he became a humakti precisely to avoid situations like that. I love Humakti, I just wish they were more common. It'd be cool if having a great temple to the rarer gods upped the chances of a god talker appearing among your nobles. I also like having an Uroxi around, since the chaos events are some of the most difficult in the game and they always have good advice.
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Sep 29, 2011 22:50
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Darth Windu posted:You can get the older version by mailing the creators 20 bucks. That's about all you can do on the legal side of things. but how do you get that to work on windows 7?
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Sep 29, 2011 23:13
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Quantumfate posted:but how do you get that to work on windows 7? You have to fiddle with it a lot. I don't remember specifically what I did, but it works fairly reliably running in compatibility mode and if I start it immediately when the computer boots up.
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Sep 29, 2011 23:45
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Man I just got the tribe making event, but it's only been about 8 years in-game so I am woefully unprepared to suck up to my neighbors. Apparently raiding the poo poo out of one small clan earns you a lot of respect.
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Sep 30, 2011 05:06
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Quantumfate posted:but how do you get that to work on windows 7?
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Sep 30, 2011 05:24
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God drat hard mode is HARD. Everyone hates you, you get two to three attacks per year, and you lose almost every attack and event. It isn't even fun.
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Sep 30, 2011 05:25
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Chef Boyardee posted:What I did was to copy and paste everything on the CD into a folder in C:\ called KoDP. It has to be in C:\ and it has to be called KoDP or else it won't work. I also did this. It worked great across two computers.
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Sep 30, 2011 05:57
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I just wanted to chime in here to say that I really enjoyed the LP of the PC version. More over, David at A-Sharp has begun making the iOS version playable using VoiceOver, Apple's built-in screen reader. I've been testing for him, and am loving playing the game even more. Seeing all this Gloranthan lore makes me want to play the RPGs it comes from, too. It really is fascinating stuff, and feels like nothing else. Thanks for the contributions, they keep me coming back. 
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Sep 30, 2011 07:13
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Is it possible to ally with the ducks? I know you can get them in the tribe if you are incredibly lucky, but they just laugh at me every time I ask them to ally.
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Sep 30, 2011 07:32
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Chef Boyardee posted:What I did was to copy and paste everything on the CD into a folder in C:\ called KoDP. It has to be in C:\ and it has to be called KoDP or else it won't work. Thanks! Is there a fix for the size? to make it less than really small? Or do I just need to change my comp resolution from 1366?
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Sep 30, 2011 09:37
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The size can be made less annoying by running the game in XP Mode, (not the compatibility layer but the actual XP Mode virtual machine.) Someone else posted a link to it up-thread, but here it is again http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows7/products/features/windows-xp-mode
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Sep 30, 2011 09:42
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Darth Windu posted:Is it possible to ally with the ducks? I know you can get them in the tribe if you are incredibly lucky, but they just laugh at me every time I ask them to ally. I don't know about a military alliance, but I'm sure it's impossible to actually get them in your tribe. If they are extremely friendly you can sponsor them, and afterwards you can pull off a super-negotiate to convince your tribe that's it's a good idea. Unfortunately, at the end, some douchebag remembers an old Orlanthi custom that non-humans can't join the tribe. Tindalos: Hey another Lunar question please. Is the Lunar Empire a matriarchy? From the '7 mothers' founding it sure sounds that way, especially considering a Lunar heroine killed stuff. Women play a backseat role in Orlanthi society, except for those Vingans I guess.
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Sep 30, 2011 14:30
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enigma74 posted:I don't know about a military alliance, but I'm sure it's impossible to actually get them in your tribe. If they are extremely friendly you can sponsor them, and afterwards you can pull off a super-negotiate to convince your tribe that's it's a good idea. Unfortunately, at the end, some douchebag remembers an old Orlanthi custom that non-humans can't join the tribe. Ah, lame. And no, some of the Mothers are actually men. Women have it pretty good in Orlanthi society, especially compared to our own equivalent period. They can choose to be mothers and wives or they can adventure around and fight like men. You can have a woman become queen of Dragon Pass if you want. I'd say that's a bit more than a backseat role.
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Sep 30, 2011 15:02
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Yeah if you read the lore women and men are basically considered equal. Women are actually thought to be the level-headed and rational counterparts to the emotional and erratically violent orlanthi men and are seen as better at planning and management whereas men are generally more useful in war but that's about it.
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Sep 30, 2011 18:12
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enigma74 posted:Tindalos: Hey another Lunar question please. Is the Lunar Empire a matriarchy? From the '7 mothers' founding it sure sounds that way, especially considering a Lunar heroine killed stuff. Women play a backseat role in Orlanthi society, except for those Vingans I guess. Actually, the empire is ruled by the Son of the Red Goddess, the Red Emperor, Takanegi. He's another of those reincarnating demigods who reincarnates into the body of the most suitable candidate. And no, the Seven Mothers are both sexes. The women were Deezola the Queen, Jakaleel the Witch, Teelo Norri the Sacrifice and body of the Red Goddess, and she who waits. Probably. The male mothers were Yanafal Tarnils the warlord, Irripi Ontor the scholar, and Danfive Xaron the Penitent. For a matriarchal society, you'd be better off in Esrolia, where Ernalda is the Great Goddess, alongside the other earth deities. Or with trolls, who always obey their mothers. andrew smash posted:Yeah if you read the lore women and men are basically considered equal. Women are actually thought to be the level-headed and rational counterparts to the emotional and erratically violent orlanthi men and are seen as better at planning and management whereas men are generally more useful in war but that's about it. Not just level-headed, women are expected to be plotters, cunning and wise. Notice how both Orlanth's heroquests in the game start off with Ernalda coming up to Orlanth and telling him he needs to go do something, and he immediately goes to do it? Plus then there are the two... Unorthodox cults of Vinga and Nandan. Who can basicly be summed up as "Women who do mens work", and "Men who do womens work". Vingans wear kilts and trousers, wield spears and swords, and join the thanes. Nandani wear dresses, shave off their beards, look after children, and cook. Then there are the Helerings, who look after the sheep, are the shieldmen to warleaders, tend to go into battle clad only in woad, consist of both men and women, and sometimes switch between the two. Heler is somewhat strange. Tindalos fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Sep 30, 2011 |
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Sep 30, 2011 20:28
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They've got a lot of gender segregated roles, but are entirely cool with cross dressing. If you're a woman and want to be a scholar of Lhankor Mhy, you just need to slap on a fake beard and no one's going to tell you a man could do it better.
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Sep 30, 2011 20:42
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Tindalos posted:For a matriarchal society, you'd be better off in Esrolia, where Ernalda is the Great Goddess, alongside the other earth deities. In fact, one of the (many) Orlanthi marriage types is called an "Esrolian Husband", where the Husband travels to live with the Wife's clan and any children they produce are raised by the Wife's clan as their own. Normally its the opposite. Orlanthi Marriage types and politics are numerous and somewhat complex. IIRC, Marriage/sex within the clan is strictly forbidden. Marriage is considered a very sacred bond and adultery is harshly denounced, though outside of it casual sex is not uncommon nor considered taboo. Thus everyone keeps careful track of genealogy and familial and clan ties. Heck they've even got marriages that only last a year as a political and/or probationary thing.
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Sep 30, 2011 20:50
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Mystic Mongol posted:They've got a lot of gender segregated roles, but are entirely cool with cross dressing. If you're a woman and want to be a scholar of Lhankor Mhy, you just need to slap on a fake beard and no one's going to tell you a man could do it better. Really, the Orlanthi are okay with quite a few things that are suprising, as long as you do them in certain particular ways. Orlanthi hate solar worshipers, but they have the Elmali who follow the Orlanthi sun god. Only male Orlanthi can be warriors. Unless you're a vingan, humakti, babeester gori, maran gori. No messing around with sorcery, unless you follow Lhankor Mhy, who dabbles a bit. No sacrificing to chaos, except Malia in an emergency. No betraying the clan, murdering people, burning down houses, stealing from clan stores, or disturbing the cattle. Unless you're an Eurmali. There's a term called the Orlanthi all. Which means 6/7ths. So all Orlanthi men worship Orlanth. Except for that one seventh, who don't. All orlanthi keep Alynxes, except for that one clan of dog keeping bastards.
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Sep 30, 2011 20:59
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Why is every other clan such a dick about sharing food? Doesn't matter that my clan is starving here and that they owe me a favor. Even if I try to trade for food they still rarely agree. If they call in a favor for food and I refuse them, then they tell all the other clans about how I don't keep my promises. It seems like the only clan that will reliably trade food with me is the nearby duck tribe.
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Sep 30, 2011 21:38
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Funny thing is, Orlanthi highly value their individual freedoms ("Nobody can make you do anything" is a very common credo), yet they're also typically very staunch traditionalist who hate and distrust new things. Meanwhile, the Lunar Empire to the North forces many laws and worship of the Red Moon Godess on it's people, yet is surprisingly liberal in most other regards. As long as you pay homage to the Red Moon Goddess above all other deities and pay your tithes of money and troops, they don't care who you worship or what you do. (they're still chaos worshiping whoresons though!  )I've always found the duality of the two rival people's amusing. Still, KoDP players really don't need to worry about the Lunar Empire much, the Orlanthi of Dragon Pass have pretty much never heard of them at the time the game is set, though they do know that new red moon that appeared in the sky is a bad chaos thing. The Lunar Conquests won't reach the pass until after the formation of Sartar's Kingdom, which they'll have several brutal wars with before finally conquering the Sartarites shortly after the beginning of the 1600s, like they did the Tarshites. Though there is an event where Tarsh, the Orlanthi Kingdom north of Dragon Pass comes to the Heortlings colonists of the pass seeking mercenaries in the war they're currently fighting against Lunar Aggression (which they're doomed to eventually lose). Whereas the Orlanthi share aesthetics with various northern European "barbarians", the Lunars are much more Grecco-Mediterranean in their aesthetics. Also much more disciplined in warfare. Their primary foot soldiers are called hoplites (though IIRC rigid Phalanx tactics are not common) and make much more use of archers compared to the KoDP Orlanthi, who prefer throwing spears and other skirmishing weapons in warfare. Here is a shot of some Lunar soldiers standing around one of the Sun Temples. Someone more educated in their society could probably tell you the rank of these men based on the number and color of the feathers in their helmets.  The general technology level of Glorantha is stuck at a perpetual Bronze-Age level, with a few anachronisms, such as chain-mail, existing. Widespread mounted warfare is pretty uncommon due to the lack of stirrups, only the Grazelanders (Horse Spawn) and Praxians use cavalry as their primary means of warfare. Orlanthi Thanes do possess horses (you need them to recruit weaponthanes in KoDP as I'm sure you've noticed), but they they almost never fight on them. They use them to ride into position for battle, but dismount to actually combat the enemy. I should explain the major Runes and most important minor ones sometime. 
Galaga Galaxian fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Sep 30, 2011 |
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Sep 30, 2011 21:42
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that chart seems to be missing the best rune, the urox rune ETERNAL CONFLICT 
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Sep 30, 2011 21:56
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Flame112 posted:Why is every other clan such a dick about sharing food? Doesn't matter that my clan is starving here and that they owe me a favor. Even if I try to trade for food they still rarely agree. If they call in a favor for food and I refuse them, then they tell all the other clans about how I don't keep my promises. It seems like the only clan that will reliably trade food with me is the nearby duck tribe. The other clans are dicks about everything, KODP is a game where everyone is a petty rear end in a top hat redneck in the woods who passionately hates the guys on the other side of the hill because their granddad insulted your granddad's cow a century back. Also when are you asking? If you're waiting until spring or something they're just running low on food too. The clans aren't all that reliable when it comes to responding to favors generally but if you're calling on them a month before harvest with a low-skill bargainer they'll just tell you to gently caress off every time. E: So how long does the RuneQuest timeline run for? I assume 1600 their time is not equivalent to 1600 our time. Tubgirl Cosplay fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Sep 30, 2011 |
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Sep 30, 2011 22:13
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No, Glorantha is a completely separate world/ universe. In fact, its actually a cube of rock/dirt floating in an endless ocean. The world is flat, and the sun is actually the Sun God (all of them, at the same time) traveling across the sky and taking a trip through the underworld every night through gates to hell at the south and north ends of the world.  There are generally 3 or 4 Ages in Glorantha. First there is the Godtime, which might count as an age. This was a non-temporal period when the gods created the universe, walked the Earth and did all kinds of poo poo. The Godtime came to a dramatic close in the Gods' War and the Greater Darknes (Chaos). From then on the gods would rarely directly influence the world in a physical form. The First Age, stretching from 0-500ish is known as the Dawn Age is something I personally know little of. It came to a close with the resurgence of Chaos during the time of Arkat and the Gbaji wars. The second age lasted from 500 to 1100 or so. I also know little of this time. It was during this Period the EWF, the Empire of Wyrms Friends was established. It was also the time of the God Learners, men who were basically religious power gamers and muchkins. They learned the myths of many cultures and sought to exploit the similarities and differences via HeroQuesting to rewrite reality to their whims, becoming massively powerful. This age's end was heralded by no great single cataclysm, but many small ones. The EWF was devoured by their Dragonfriends during a great war, the God Learners were destroyed by the gods for their hubris and various nations fell due to disaster, war or other misfortune. The Second Age is the setting of the Mongoose Runequest RPGs (not to be confused with the original Runequest RPGs, which I believe are third age). The Thid age is the current age. It starts in the late 1100s, and early on sees the Heortlings travel into Dragon pass and settle it, eventually forming the Kingdom of Sartar. Most Glorantha RPGs are set in this age, usually in the 1600s. And it is soon going to come to a cataclysmic end in the Hero Wars, as the power of many mortal men grow and begin to approach that of the gods. The Hero Wars is basically going to be another great resurgence of Chaos. (gee, I wonder who causes this...? LUNARS! )As far as Glorantha RPGs, there are three major branches. Classic Runquest (the original RPG from the 80s), Mongoose Runequest, and Heroquest. Galaga Galaxian fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Sep 30, 2011 |
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Sep 30, 2011 22:41
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Galaga Galaxian posted:
Actually those arn't Lunars, although they are currently Allied to them. In Prax, there's a small culture called the Sun Dome people, who worship a god named Yelmalio, a minor sungod who lost his fire powers when he got beaten up by Orlanth, a troll god named Zorak Zoran, and the goddess of winter Inora on the hill of gold. The SunDomers are puritan, firmly traditionalist, and piss off a lot of the praxians because they ride horses. (Incidentally, there is absolutely no similarity between Yelmalio and Elmal, just because a bunch of Sartarite elmali suddenly switched to worshipping Yelmalio doesn't mean there's a connection, and there's no connection between them and Nysalor at all. None)
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Sep 30, 2011 23:07
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