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notthegoatseguy posted:Millar's run(1-12, 15-33, and the Ultimate War mini) is largely considered the best and pretty much tells a complete story. Bendis' run kind of focuses on some Wolverine sub-plots that were hinted at some point or another, but doesn't do anything too earth shattering. Brian K Vaughn (46-65) is okay and resolves the Gambit stuff, but kind of sucks. Kirkman and everyone after that is pretty much what you describe: who can we Ultimize this month. Well if he's done the first 5 or 6 volumes he's pretty much only read the Millar stuff at this point. I think that Millar and Vaughn's runs are good. Vaughn at least tries to do something different with some characters but with varying degrees of success. Kirkman's run is pretty awful. His Cable and Apocalypse stories are just total crap. The Cable stuff was actually a decent idea, but it was handled terribly. And I didn't like his Apocalypse just because I really did like what Vaughn did with Sinister before and it kind of ruined that.
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Oct 4, 2011 04:31
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I'm a bit of a latecomer to the Ultimate Universe. What exactly was the story behind the whole Loeb thing? Did he get canned? What was up with that?
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Oct 4, 2011 07:58
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Bulgaroktonos posted:I'm a bit of a latecomer to the Ultimate Universe. He wrote some really lovely books that largely ignored things that came before them and then ended up killing off half of the characters in the universe in increasingly stupid ways for no reason. Ultimates 3 was poo poo. Ultimate Power was poo poo (though to be fair he had help with that). Ultimatum was poo poo. New Ultimates wasn't poo poo, but was just mediocre. Ultimate X was actually pretty decent. That pretty much sums up his contributions to the the Ultimate Universe.
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Oct 4, 2011 08:20
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Deadpool posted:He wrote some really lovely books that largely ignored things that came before them and then ended up killing off half of the characters in the universe in increasingly stupid ways for no reason. Ultimates 3 was poo poo. Ultimate Power was poo poo (though to be fair he had help with that). Ultimatum was poo poo. New Ultimates wasn't poo poo, but was just mediocre. Ultimate X was actually pretty decent. That pretty much sums up his contributions to the the Ultimate Universe. Ultimates 3 and Ultimatum were worse than poo poo; I almost wonder if it were some kind of plan to try to tank the whole "Ultimate" line entirely as a pretext to cancelling all the books.
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Oct 4, 2011 10:34
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Ultimates 3 was honestly one of the worst comics I have ever read. Is it Ultimate X this week?
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Oct 4, 2011 10:58
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TwoPair posted:If memory serves, wasn't he already web-swinging in Ultimate Fallout? I'm guessing he's got organic shooters. God, I hope not, those are so lame.
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Oct 4, 2011 12:46
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Bulgaroktonos posted:I'm a bit of a latecomer to the Ultimate Universe. His son died from cancer and he went sort of insane after that.
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Oct 4, 2011 13:57
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Myrddin Emrys posted:His son died from cancer and he went sort of insane after that. Is that it? Now I feel bad about hating him so much. 
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Oct 4, 2011 13:59
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Bulgaroktonos posted:I'm a bit of a latecomer to the Ultimate Universe. He's still writing for the Ultimate Universe. His son died of cancer and he went mad with grief, writing in said son as an actual character in various stories. I suspect editors higher up didn't have the heart to start telling him to tone it down. Or they were cynical enough to figure audiences would buy more if the writing was more "real." Either way, Loeb lost his mind and destroyed the Ultimate Universe in Ultimatum, tossing death, gore, and destruction everywhere with no real artistic merit and using the writing as therapy (instead of REAL therapy, which he obviously needed). Now he writes Ultimate X, which literally had Wolverine come back from the dead via his son who has the exact same powers and character.
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Oct 4, 2011 14:01
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Mister Roboto posted:He's still writing for the Ultimate Universe. Dude, Ultimate X #5 shipped over three months ago.
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Oct 4, 2011 14:05
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Diagnosing creator's mental health issues amongst all these value judgements is amazingly scummy.
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Oct 4, 2011 14:13
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Flight 230 posted:Diagnosing creator's mental health issues amongst all these value judgements is amazingly scummy. Then most art critics are tremendous bastards.
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Oct 4, 2011 14:19
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ChuckDHead posted:Then most art critics are tremendous bastards. This thread != "art criticism"
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Oct 4, 2011 14:29
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Flight 230 posted:This thread != "art criticism" Are you saying that comics aren't art? Or that we're not criticizing?
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Oct 4, 2011 14:30
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Flight 230 posted:This thread != "art criticism" Fine then, call it media discussion. Point is, sometimes the intentions and feelings of the author are important to a discussion of a piece of media, unless you really just want to look at it on face value.
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Oct 4, 2011 15:08
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Loebs writing quality hasn't changed since Teen Wolf. The only difference between his current books is that the artists he gets teamed up with are more of an acquired taste than Tim Sale or Jim Lee. Saying his sons death effected his quality is: A)Not true B)A ridiculously tired joke C)In awful taste The only thing different is that there wouldn't be any tribute characters sprinkled throughout his book. Waterhaul fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Oct 4, 2011 |
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Oct 4, 2011 15:17
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Waterhaul posted:Loebs writing quality hasn't changed since Teen Wolf. The only difference between his current books is that the artists he gets teamed up with are more of an acquired taste than Tim Sale or Jim Lee. I disagree. There is an obvious downturn in the quality of his work since the original Marvel color books and Superman For All Seasons. The first arc of Superman/Batman was probably the last thing he wrote before his work began to suffer from his emotional state.
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Oct 4, 2011 15:27
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Also, the Long Halloween was alright.
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Oct 4, 2011 15:28
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Rhyno posted:I disagree. There is an obvious downturn in the quality of his work since the original Marvel color books and Superman For All Seasons. The first arc of Superman/Batman was probably the last thing he wrote before his work began to suffer from his emotional state. Again I really do think if his Marvel color books for example had David Finch instead of Tim Sale they wouldn't be fondly remembered.
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Oct 4, 2011 15:31
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Waterhaul posted:Loebs writing quality hasn't changed since Teen Wolf. The only difference between his current books is that the artists he gets teamed up with are more of an acquired taste than Tim Sale or Jim Lee. I completely disagree, though. I mean, he explicitly stated that his son Sam came up with the idea for the Ultimates, and he said this in an Ultimates book as canon. You're telling me that level of brilliant writing would have happened had his son not died?
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Oct 4, 2011 15:32
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Myrddin Emrys posted:I completely disagree, though. I mean, he explicitly stated that his son Sam came up with the idea for the Ultimates, and he said this in an Ultimates book as canon. You're telling me that level of brilliant writing would have happened had his son not died? But that has nothing to do with his writing quality, it's just a token tribute character and an insignificant plot point. If you took that plot point our Loebs writing would still be the exact same and he wouldn't be the first writer to add in a tribute character of someone he knew.
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Oct 4, 2011 15:38
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Whether you think his writing dropped off at some point or not, the bottom line is that he wrote some really lovely stuff in the Ultimate Universe. So much so that it really put a dark cloud over the whole imprint that's just now starting to lift. Personally I think his last two contributions weren't bad at all. New Ultimates was mediocre, but still better than a couple of the Ultimate Avengers minis that Millar pumped out. And I enjoyed Ultimate X quite a bit despite the fact that it tried to undo Wolverine's death via introducing his son. That being said I am very glad he's no longer writing any of the Ultimate titles. Waterhaul posted:But that has nothing to do with his writing quality, it's just a token tribute character and an insignificant plot point. If you took that plot point our Loebs writing would still be the exact same and he wouldn't be the first writer to add in a tribute character of someone he knew. Agreed. I hate when people try to bring that up as a valid criticism. There's plenty of things to criticize Loeb over. That's not really one of them. X-O fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Oct 4, 2011 |
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Oct 4, 2011 21:30
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I honestly don't even think Long Halloween was all that good. It had a few neat set pieces but the framing narrative was horribly weak. It doesn't help that even Loeb can't tell you who killed which victim when in what's essentially a murder mystery story. As I've mentioned in the Batman thread, the Two-face origin that's (supposedly) at the center of this way-too-long story has most of its important beats and themes lifted from another, better comic. And like a ton of his work, I suspect it sold well because it crammed in as many cameos of beloved characters as possible, with excellent art holding the whole thing up. This isn't just me trying to pile onto Loeb, I just don't think there was ever any dropoff. He stopped being paired with good artists and got less and less editorial oversight as he became a bigger name, and his later stories kept reusing themes he'd done already in better-received works. He's the George Lucas of comics.
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Oct 4, 2011 22:02
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Lurdiak posted:God, I hope not, those are so lame. Really? I never understood the argument against organic web-shooters. Dude gets bit by spiders, gets various spider-powers, but not the ability to make webs? Seems lame and/or strange. Also, I can't think of a single thing shooters contribute to the story besides creating a false sense of drama during a story (when Spider-Man runs out of web fluid now *gasp* how will he survive?!). The only decent argument I've seen is that inventing the slingers and/or web fluid cements Peter (and/or Miles) as a smart kid who relies on his brain in fights rather than just getting into punch-fests like other heroes, and it seems like there are definitely other ways to portray that.
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Oct 4, 2011 23:27
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TwoPair posted:Really? I never understood the argument against organic web-shooters. Dude gets bit by spiders, gets various spider-powers, but not the ability to make webs? Seems lame and/or strange. Also, I can't think of a single thing shooters contribute to the story besides creating a false sense of drama during a story (when Spider-Man runs out of web fluid now *gasp* how will he survive?!). The only real argument against organic web shooters is that it wasn't how he was originally designed. Anything other argument over whether it is beneficial/detrimental to the character are mostly just nerds fuming and arguing. If he had been originally created with organic webs people today would just say that web fluid is retarded.
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Oct 5, 2011 01:06
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invalid user posted:The only real argument against organic web shooters is that it wasn't how he was originally designed. Anything other argument over whether it is beneficial/detrimental to the character are mostly just nerds fuming and arguing. If he had been originally created with organic webs people today would just say that web fluid is retarded. And even with organic webs, you can still use the inorganic stuff if needed to take on Sandman or whoever. It just means we won't have the dumb "oh noes, webs are jammed!" poo poo like we had during the first four months of Brand New Day back in 2008.
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Oct 5, 2011 01:13
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invalid user posted:The only real argument against organic web shooters is that it wasn't how he was originally designed. Anything other argument over whether it is beneficial/detrimental to the character are mostly just nerds fuming and arguing. If he had been originally created with organic webs people today would just say that web fluid is retarded. As long as he is CONSTANTLY EATING, there's no problem with organic web shooters. Otherwise it's like, how is his body making it?
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Oct 5, 2011 01:28
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Myrddin Emrys posted:As long as he is CONSTANTLY EATING, there's no problem with organic web shooters. Otherwise it's like, how is his body making it? The same way Wolverine does anything and Cyclops shoots unending force beams from his eyes. It's magic.
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Oct 5, 2011 02:07
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Myrddin Emrys posted:As long as he is CONSTANTLY EATING, there's no problem with organic web shooters. Otherwise it's like, how is his body making it? well apparently he could just eat the left over webbing to recycle it, but he'd have to pull it from his glandula aggregata, which I think is in his thorax the reason I don't like organic web shooters is that, aside from tiny prickers in his hands and feet that help him climb, he never had any overt physical characteristics of a spider. no 6 new eyes, no 4 new appendages, no upside down mandibles, and no portion of his body devoted to mass producing silk though, if a shock sting, flight, invisibility, and precognition variably come with the package then he might as well (conveniently) shoot webs outa his hands hey, who wants to talk about bone claws?!
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Oct 5, 2011 02:24
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Sgt. Politeness posted:well apparently he could just eat the left over webbing to recycle it, but he'd have to pull it from his glandula aggregata, which I think is in his thorax Serious question: Did you ever read about his transformation into the Man-Spider? He totally becomes an 8 limbed, hinged-jawed monstrosity. Kinda joke question: Did you ever learn about capital letters?
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Oct 5, 2011 02:38
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Waterhaul posted:Again I really do think if his Marvel color books for example had David Finch instead of Tim Sale they wouldn't be fondly remembered. After the Age of Apocalypse he was given control of X-Force, Cable and X-Man. X-Man wasn't the best book but Cable was a very enjoyable book and X-Force might have been the best X-book on the stands back then. He was really dedicated to those titles and his love of them showed. The same for the color books, they may have had a phenomenal artist but he actually crafted excellent stories. When Sam fell ill you could sort of see in the writing that his heart just wasn't in it like it had been. And now it's as if he just does this for the paycheck. He's an established talent with connections in various media so it's easy for him to continue getting work. Edit: I used to love his work, he wrote fun, enjoyable super hero comics on a regular basis. Now he just doesn't put as much care into his scripts.
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Oct 5, 2011 02:45
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Waterhaul posted:Loebs writing quality hasn't changed since Teen Wolf. The only difference between his current books is that the artists he gets teamed up with are more of an acquired taste than Tim Sale or Jim Lee. Affected (sorry, that's like my number one word mistake that drives me insane). And I still think The Long Halloween is pretty solidly written, even if Tim Sale's art is like 75% of why that book is awesome (and even his art couldn't save Dark Victory, that book blows). And I don't think his son's death affected his work, I think Loeb was just one of those guys who had like one good story in him, and when he became a success because of it, it became apparent that he didn't have any more. It happens in film and books all the time, some guys just have one good story. Uncle Boogeyman fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Oct 5, 2011 |
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Oct 5, 2011 02:53
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I dunno. I just know that looking at the list of his stuff I liked more things before the year or two around when Sam was supposedly diagnosed. May it affected him, maybe he just got old. I find his stuff less tolerable as time goes on.
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Oct 5, 2011 02:59
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invalid user posted:The same way Wolverine does anything and Cyclops shoots unending force beams from his eyes. It's magic.
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Oct 5, 2011 03:16
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Rhyno posted:After the Age of Apocalypse he was given control of X-Force, Cable and X-Man. X-Man wasn't the best book but Cable was a very enjoyable book and X-Force might have been the best X-book on the stands back then. He was really dedicated to those titles and his love of them showed. The same for the color books, they may have had a phenomenal artist but he actually crafted excellent stories. I always thought he Superman run was liked, or was I wrong?
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Oct 5, 2011 03:22
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I posted:I always wondered how Wolverine reformed himself from a skeleton after being blown away by Nitro. Does his power set include super-rapid photosynthesis, chemosynthesis and nitrogen fixation? It includes whatever the writer needs to make the story work, like any other character.
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Oct 5, 2011 03:59
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I posted:I always wondered how Wolverine reformed himself from a skeleton after being blown away by Nitro. Does his power set include super-rapid photosynthesis, chemosynthesis and nitrogen fixation? Keeping this in the Ultimate U, in 'Ultimate Wolverine vs. Hulk', Fury tells Wolverine his mutant power is less healing and more technically suriving (he tells him this while Logan is just a head on a desk) but then Ultimate Wolverine proved far less resilient than his 616 counterpart in Ultimatum. For all the hate the book gets, I enjoyed it, but then I read it as a trade, not single issues.
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Oct 5, 2011 04:24
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LtKenFrankenstein posted:Affected (sorry, that's like my number one word mistake that drives me insane). And I still think The Long Halloween is pretty solidly written, even if Tim Sale's art is like 75% of why that book is awesome (and even his art couldn't save Dark Victory, that book blows). And I don't think his son's death affected his work, I think Loeb was just one of those guys who had like one good story in him, and when he became a success because of it, it became apparent that he didn't have any more. It happens in film and books all the time, some guys just have one good story. I suppose that is possible too, that he was just a one-hit wonder and the rest of his stuff was riding that wave until finally it's trickling down right now. Are there any plans for an Ultimate X series to continue or was that it?
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Oct 5, 2011 06:45
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Mister Roboto posted:I suppose that is possible too, that he was just a one-hit wonder and the rest of his stuff was riding that wave until finally it's trickling down right now. It was just a mini. It's done.
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Oct 5, 2011 06:46
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bobkatt013 posted:I always thought he Superman run was liked, or was I wrong? It was also quite good up until Superman Batman #7 which is where he began going off the rails a bit.
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Oct 5, 2011 06:49
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